Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

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mookie
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Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by mookie »

I'm planning to buy a Gore-tex 3 layer jacket for skiing. I see that most of them are described as a shell. Will a base layer shirt underneath the shell be sufficiently warm? Or is it better to buy a 3-in-1 or insulated jacket for skiing?
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anon_investor
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by anon_investor »

mookie wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:28 pm I'm planning to buy a Gore-tex 3 layer jacket for skiing. I see that most of them are described as a shell. Will a base layer shirt underneath the shell be sufficiently warm? Or is it better to buy a 3-in-1 or insulated jacket for skiing?
It will have 0 insulation, it is just a shell to keep wind and snow/water out. Gore-tex is a waterproof and breathable membrane but provides no "warmth". You would want to wear an insulating layer, maybe fleece, down or synthetic fill. You don't need a 3-in-1 jacket, you can just have an unattached insulating layer.
dbr
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by dbr »

mookie wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:28 pm I'm planning to buy a Gore-tex 3 layer jacket for skiing. I see that most of them are described as a shell. Will a base layer shirt underneath the shell be sufficiently warm? Or is it better to buy a 3-in-1 or insulated jacket for skiing?
It depends how cold it is and how much body heat you plan on generating. For slogging around on cross country skis I would wear a poly undershirt, a fleece, and a shell, either nylon or Gore-tex. For higher level exercise one might remove the fleece. Also, if cold and dry and not wet snow or mist even that Gore-tex may not be as breathable as you would like at high exercise output.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by smackboy1 »

mookie wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:28 pmI'm planning to buy a Gore-tex 3 layer jacket for skiing. I see that most of them are described as a shell. Will a base layer shirt underneath the shell be sufficiently warm? Or is it better to buy a 3-in-1 or insulated jacket for skiing?
It depends on many variables. Gore-Tex 3L is just one type of fabric within W. L. Gore's product line. There are also many other brands that produce similar waterproof and breathable fabrics. Being comfortable and warm is the goal but there are many issues:

1) Keeping snow/rain out
2) Keeping wind out
3) Keeping mid/base layers dry by allowing sweat to evaporate
4) Sufficient insulation to keep warm, but not overheat and sweat too much

What is the activity? Cross country skiing in spring? Face shots in the deep powder? Sitting on the ski lift in the wind?

4) is solved by using a hard/soft shell outer layer (zero insulation) and changing the mid/base layer (insulation) as required. Very versatile say for people who sweat a lot hiking uphill to ski downhill.

1), 2), and 3) are necessarily a compromise. The most waterproof and windproof fabrics like Gore-Tex 3L are not as air permeable for sweat to evaporate. That's why sometimes Gore-Tex garments have zip vents. Other more breathable fabrics may sacrifice water and wind proofing.

https://blisterreview.com/features/outerwear-101

https://blisterreview.com/recommended/o ... igm-shifts
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
SmallSaver
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by SmallSaver »

There is no one-jacket solution, too many variables. IMO a pure shell (no insulation) like you describe is the way to go, not an insulated jacket. Just add things underneath as needed. Much more versatile.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by Marmot »

These guys are good: https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/

You can get an idea of what is out there and what is needed.
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DoubleComma
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by DoubleComma »

SmallSaver wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:28 am There is no one-jacket solution, too many variables. IMO a pure shell (no insulation) like you describe is the way to go, not an insulated jacket. Just add things underneath as needed. Much more versatile.
Agree with this. We are very active skiing family, 30+ days a year, we all were shells and the appropriate layers beneath depending on that days weather.

I have a couple insulated jackets, but almost never wear them as it’s to hard to get the layers correct.

There occasional days a base layer and shell are acceptable, but more times than not there in at least one more layer maybe 2.
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mookie
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by mookie »

It looks like a Gore-tex 2 layer insulated ski jacket is what I'm looking for. I want it for everyday, all around winter use, not just when skiing, so I think I need the insulation. As long as it has zippered vents, I think I'll be able to use it for skiing too. For some reason, they don't make Gore-text 3 layer jackets with insulation, they only sell it as a shell.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by punkinhead »

mookie wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:53 am It looks like a Gore-tex 2 layer insulated ski jacket is what I'm looking for. I want it for everyday, all around winter use, not just when skiing, so I think I need the insulation. As long as it has zippered vents, I think I'll be able to use it for skiing too. For some reason, they don't make Gore-text 3 layer jackets with insulation, they only sell it as a shell.
Is there such a thing as an insulated Goretex jacket but the insulation zips out so you can use it as only a shell when needed? I've only ever owned Goretex shells and wouldn't want a jacket with permanent insulation unless I was only going to use it for sedentary activities like going to the store.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by White Coat Investor »

mookie wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:28 pm I'm planning to buy a Gore-tex 3 layer jacket for skiing. I see that most of them are described as a shell. Will a base layer shirt underneath the shell be sufficiently warm? Or is it better to buy a 3-in-1 or insulated jacket for skiing?
Buy the shell. Buy a base layer. THEN buy an insulating layer or two.

"3-in-1" (usually 2-in-1) kind of jackets went out of style years ago for a reason. They're just a pain to be zipping in and out.

My typical resort day involves a base layer, a fleece jacket, a down jacket, and the shell. No, the shell does not have significant insulating value. It's about keeping you dry and keeping the wind off you. It'll still be the most expensive of the layers though by far. My shell costs more than the other three combined.

In the backcountry I take the same layers, but may climb to the top of the mountain in just the base layer, then put the other three on to ski down. Tricky stuff layering in the winter. The key is lots of layers.
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Rex66
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by Rex66 »

Any favorites for the non gortex layers?
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by Chip »

OP, you've received some very good advice which you seem determined to ignore.

If you buy the shell plus the fleece you have flexibility, even as a fall/winter jacket when not skiing.

Not too cold, rainy: wear the shell
Sunny, no wind, a bit colder: wear the fleece
Windy/cold or rainy/cold: wear both
Very cold: wear both plus long underwear plus other wicking layers.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by smackboy1 »

mookie wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 9:53 am It looks like a Gore-tex 2 layer insulated ski jacket is what I'm looking for. I want it for everyday, all around winter use, not just when skiing, so I think I need the insulation. As long as it has zippered vents, I think I'll be able to use it for skiing too. For some reason, they don't make Gore-text 3 layer jackets with insulation, they only sell it as a shell.
They do make Gore-Tex 3 layer insulated ski jackets. Here is one by Arc'teryx

https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/macai-jacket

It's not common because Gore-Tex Pro/3L is their burliest product (translation: most expensive) marketed for "extreme" activities. Those people tend to prefer a layering system. They don't buy insulated jackets.

TBH for an everyday insulated winter jacket and for lift served downhill resort skiing, Gore-Tex is probably overkill and overpriced. Gore markets itself as a premium product and is very controlling of manufacturers that use their fabrics. One reason is Gore lifetime warranties garments made with it's most technical "pro" fabrics for waterproofness. Other brands have their own version of waterproof + breathable fabrics that perform similarly as Gore-Tex for less $. Like this

https://www.thenorthface.com/shop/mens- ... tionId=CHL

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/c ... ski-jacket

Speaking to the versatility of a shell, I can wear my Gore-Tex shell in warm weather as a rain jacket because it has no insulation.
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
punkinhead
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by punkinhead »

Rex66 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:04 am Any favorites for the non gortex layers?
Fleece or merino wool for mid-layers. I prefer fleece because I'm a cheapskate, but have some merino shirts & sweaters that are very nice. Expensive, but nice.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by SmallSaver »

Rex66 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:04 am Any favorites for the non gortex layers?
Merino wool baselayers (200 weight). A basic synthetic insulation puffy. For pure resort skiing it doesn't need a hood, but much more versatile for other things if it has one. I'm not a big fan of fleece personally, bulky and heavy for the amount of warmth, but other people like them.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by Jeepergeo »

mookie wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 10:28 pm I'm planning to buy a Gore-tex 3 layer jacket for skiing. I see that most of them are described as a shell. Will a base layer shirt underneath the shell be sufficiently warm? Or is it better to buy a 3-in-1 or insulated jacket for skiing?
Downhill skiing or Cross-Country skiing? Where will you be skiing (e.g., Montana, Utah, Colorado, California, Vermont)? Have you been skiing before?
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by raveon »

In my experience, I found a wicking underlayer, followed by a shell was sufficient for skiing. Always got too hot with a fleece. I would not buy a 3 in 1. Use the layering system.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by nalor511 »

raveon wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:01 pm In my experience, I found a wicking underlayer, followed by a shell was sufficient for skiing. Always got too hot with a fleece. I would not buy a 3 in 1. Use the layering system.
Same. Long sleeve shirt, plus jacket, goggle, hat, ear muff, gloves, WP pants, boots, and you're good
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mookie
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by mookie »

Jeepergeo wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:48 pm Downhill skiing or Cross-Country skiing? Where will you be skiing (e.g., Montana, Utah, Colorado, California, Vermont)? Have you been skiing before?
Downhill skiing on the east coast, which I've done before in my insulated North Face ski jacket. That jacket is waterproof, but seems to absorb water rather than wick it away, which is why I want to try Gore-tex. It seems like the most common options available are a 3L Gore-tex shell, which I can use in warmer weather but can't be used on its own in colder weather, or a 2L Gore-tex jacket with insulation, which can be used as an all-around winter coat. Thanks for providing your thoughts!
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by nalor511 »

mookie wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:19 pm
Jeepergeo wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:48 pm Downhill skiing or Cross-Country skiing? Where will you be skiing (e.g., Montana, Utah, Colorado, California, Vermont)? Have you been skiing before?
Downhill skiing on the east coast, which I've done before in my insulated North Face ski jacket. That jacket is waterproof, but seems to absorb water rather than wick it away, which is why I want to try Gore-tex. It seems like the most common options available are a 3L Gore-tex shell, which I can use in warmer weather but can't be used on its own in colder weather, or a 2L Gore-tex jacket with insulation, which can be used as an all-around winter coat. Thanks for providing your thoughts!
The 2L vs 3L thing is just for the waterproofing, and has nothing to do with the insulation. E.g. there are 3L rain jackets (no insulation). There are 2L rain jackets (no insulation)
dbr
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by dbr »

I would still say that Gore-tex is not needed unless you expect to experience actual rain or very wet snow and may not be as breathable as you want. In my area air temp when I am out skiing is usually around 0F to 20F and it just isn't wet whether sunny or snowing. But you would be the best judge of how often you experience wet conditions and how much you are down in the snow.

For cross country skiing I just wear a low cost nylon wind shell but I have a different outer shell for sleet and wet snow and then an actual rain parka for rain.

One could compare some ratings for waterproofing and breathability.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by sorethumb »

Obermeyer shell over Melanzana hoody over Merino base layer handles everything in central CO. Uphill skiing the shell typically goes in the pack as it gets too warm. YMMV.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by smackboy1 »

mookie wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:19 pmThat jacket is waterproof, but seems to absorb water rather than wick it away, which is why I want to try Gore-tex.
How old is that jacket and when was the last time it was properly cleaned and/or DWR (Durable Water Repellent) re-applied? All high performance outerwear will stop working if dirty - even Gore-Tex. If it's been washed with regular laundry detergent, that may compromise the water repellency. They should be cleaned with special non-detergent cleaners e.g. Nikwax, and put in the dryer to re-activate the DWR. After a while, the DWR wears off and has to be re-applied.

https://blisterreview.com/gear-101/how- ... wn-jackets
Disclaimer: nothing written here should be taken as legal advice, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
nordsteve
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by nordsteve »

For winter use the Columbia Interchange jackets might be what you want. Insulated liner is removable, so you can use it as a shell when needed, but leave the liner in for daily use. The shell does not repel water as well as the Goretex, but not much of a factor in winter.

Lots of choices in-store right now. There's a sale.

https://www.columbia.com/c/mens-3-in-1- ... nterchange

If you're looking for a deal, there are a lot of choices on Ebay.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by hudson »

I'm not saying anything new.

I'm not a skier, but I'm out all winter...a few times at around 6000 feet.
When I'm moving and there's no wind, fleece will work...full zip for venting.

If I'm exposed in the wind or weather, I want a quality rain/wind jacket/shell (no insulation) of Gore-Tex or the equivalent...something like this: https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/mens ... ket-283194
I would have similar pants...full zip

When I'm hiking, I don't ever remember wearing insulation other than fleece.
When I stop, I want down....something like this: https://featheredfriends.com/collections/down-garments

I prefer full zip for any base layers, so that I can vent.

On an all day hike at around 5000 feet in January, I'll hike with a base layer and a fleece jacket. I'll have a heavy Gore-Tex/no insulation shell available....along with pants of the same material. I probably won't use it, but I'll have a down vest in my pack. https://featheredfriends.com/collection ... -down-vest

If I was planning to spend the night out in the higher elevations, I would have a long sleeve down jacket and pants. I would make sure that my rain jacket and pants would easily fit over the down.

Bottom Line: Jacket/shells with insulation will work, but layers are optimal.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by pomomojo »

smackboy1 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:14 am They do make Gore-Tex 3 layer insulated ski jackets. Here is one by Arc'teryx

https://arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/macai-jacket

It's not common because Gore-Tex Pro/3L is their burliest product (translation: most expensive) marketed for "extreme" activities. Those people tend to prefer a layering system. They don't buy insulated jackets.
I own this jacket and wear it maybe x7-10d per year living in Central New Jersey. It's incredibly warm, and heats up quickly with even the slightest aerobic activity. I've used it for snow shoeing in 5F temperatures in Colorado. I had to zip it open after the first 30 minutes and was wearing a synthetic long-sleeve base layer. In NJ, I wear it when we search for waterfowl in the middle of winter. This requires a lot of standing in sub-20F temperatures with wind. The Macai is pretty much a specialty product.

The OP can probably get away with a 2L Gore-Tex shell, a wool or synthetic baselayer, and a synthetic down/fleece midlayer. And remember to include good socks.
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Re: Gore-tex 3L ski jacket--is shell sufficiently warm?

Post by hvaclorax »

smackboy1 wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:06 am
mookie wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:19 pmThat jacket is waterproof, but seems to absorb water rather than wick it away, which is why I want to try Gore-tex.
How old is that jacket and when was the last time it was properly cleaned and/or DWR (Durable Water Repellent) re-applied? All high performance outerwear will stop working if dirty - even Gore-Tex. If it's been washed with regular laundry detergent, that may compromise the water repellency. They should be cleaned with special non-detergent cleaners e.g. Nikwax, and put in the dryer to re-activate the DWR. After a while, the DWR wears off and has to be re-applied.

https://blisterreview.com/gear-101/how- ... wn-jackets
OP,
Agree with above. DWR is where it’s at. That being said, DWR is not effectively refreshed with aftermarket product such as Nikwax. When it stops beading water it stops breathing. Here in Montana the weather is dry so not much of a problem. If you’re wearing GoreTex for rain or mist or sweating then it probably won’t work more than a couple seasons. Stops beading, stops breathing and can’t be resurrected.
Agree GoreTex is overpriced given its short effective lifespan. Shoes especially wear DWR off rather quickly. Jacket is better but I wouldn’t wear it frequently. See Andrew Skirka website for more information.
In summary, good as windbreaker, rain barrier OK but expensive. As a breathable garment not worth it as a Boglehead.
Respectfully HVAC
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