New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Post Reply
Topic Author
yarden60
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:56 am

New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by yarden60 »

Hi -

We need a new oil boiler (propane will actually be more expensive), so am wondering what brands you have experience with and what you like and dislike about the unit.

Anyone with a 3 pass boiler (higher efficiency than a pin style though more expensive)? Indirect Hot water?

Want something solid, but not just expensive for expensive sake. Heating help says contractor is important and 3 pass is the way to go, but wondering brands and about your experiences (service calls, oil use....).

THanks!

PS am in the cold NE, heating help site says HPs don't make sense.
vikinged
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by vikinged »

We put in a Buderus boiler about 8 years ago and have had zero problems. Not sure how many passes this boiler is, but three sounds right. We replaced an old Colombia boiler and our oil usage dropped by about 25%. We had a separate zone installed on the old system for hot water using an Amtrol "hot water maker" and still use this. Not sure if this unit is still on the market. Quality of installation is important to get these systems set up right.
zxllxz
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:43 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by zxllxz »

I installed a SYSTEM 2000 by Energy Kinetics in 2016 to replace a Well-McClain single pass boiler that had lasted 29 years. The new system has 3 heating zones and a passive hot water zone. The new system is microprocessor controlled. I have documented a 30% reductions in oil usage since the new boiler has been installed. I have been very pleased with the new heating system. At the same time I also replaced the oil tank with a Roth oil tank. At the same capacity, it takes up less floor space, and has a warranty against leakage. The boiler change out with new water tank was $8500, and the oil tank change out was $3500. The tank change out cost was mostly removing the old tank under the hazmat rules. The Roth double lined tank itself is about 50% more than a high quality oval tank. In operation the new boiler is much quieter than the old boiler and only fires up when the controller sees a need. One of the ways that the System2000 saves energy is that it does not maintain a 190 degree boiler temperature as the old one did. it allows the boiler to drop down to about 110 degrees. This does cause a small (minutes) delay before the water temperature for heating zone requirements. One note, if you are depending on the residual heat of the old boiler for room heat, the System2000 has little residual heat, so you may need to add a zone for that area. I am in New Hampshire. Be well.
vg55
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:55 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by vg55 »

Time to consider leaving fossil fuel behind. Air source heat pumps work great. Even down to the teens, depending on model.

I added to air source heat pumps and now have my aging boiler as a backup. When the temps drop below 20, it changes over to oil.

look for local State and utility subsidies as well. some go as high as 15k.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by TomatoTomahto »

vg55 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:47 pm Time to consider leaving fossil fuel behind. Air source heat pumps work great. Even down to the teens, depending on model.

I added to air source heat pumps and now have my aging boiler as a backup. When the temps drop below 20, it changes over to oil.

look for local State and utility subsidies as well. some go as high as 15k.
Near Boston it’s cold. We installed geothermal (more accurately called Ground Source Heat Pump), taking out the oil burner and oil tank. We don’t miss the smell, maintenance, or deliveries.

MA is incredibly generous for green heating and cooling. The feds are generous also. Net net, you have to run the numbers to see that it’s not as expensive as you think at first. And, to my mind, you should ascribe some “off spreadsheet” credit for comfort and air quality. Fossil fuels will probably continue to become more expensive and electrons get less expensive every year.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
greenmonster
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:10 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by greenmonster »

I replaced my boiler in 2017 with a Buderus - my next door neighbor (plumber) and my HVAC guy strongly recommended the brand. Believe it's owned by Bosch. I've kept up with yearly cleanings and haven't had to do any other maintenance. After replacing it I decided to keep my house 2 degrees warmer than I did with the old furnace and my oil usage stayed about the same (but I'm much more comfortable now :happy)

That said, I did get Mitsubishi Hyper Heat heat pumps this year - they are rated to work down to -13F. I originally wanted them for cooling, but with NH rebates the Hyper Heats came out to the same price as the models that only work to 25F. I have yet to use my oil heat and suspect I'll continue to use them as the winter progresses...still happy to have oil on standby though!
User avatar
Harry Livermore
Posts: 1937
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Harry Livermore »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:55 pm
Near Boston it’s cold. We installed geothermal (more accurately called Ground Source Heat Pump), taking out the oil burner and oil tank. We don’t miss the smell, maintenance, or deliveries.
Tomato,
I assume they drilled the "well" somewhere in the yard? Lots of new builds here seem to be going geothermal. When it's a new build they drill several wells directly under the house. I've often wondered how a retrofit geo system goes in... I'm assuming it's just a rig drilling somewhere on the property, with a pipe to the house, just like a domestic water well system.
Sorry Yarden, off-topic. We installed a Peerless in our old house 20 years ago during our remodel/ addition, still going strong. Our Weill/McLain in our residence is probably almost 30 years old and runs like a champ. So I can vouch for reliability. I assume great strides in efficiency have been made.
Also, consider replacing your tank. We have done this at our residence, and I convinced a widowed neighbor, and my mother, to do the same. There was a thread going recently regarding double-walled tanks etc.
Cheers
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Harry Livermore wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:53 pm Tomato,
I assume they drilled the "well" somewhere in the yard? Lots of new builds here seem to be going geothermal. When it's a new build they drill several wells directly under the house. I've often wondered how a retrofit geo system goes in... I'm assuming it's just a rig drilling somewhere on the property, with a pipe to the house, just like a domestic water well system.
New build would have been much easier. 5 wells going down 200’ into mostly bedrock. The various other utilities would not mark, as it was too far off the main road. We had to use what they called an “archeological vaccuum” to Hoover up the dirt around the entry to the house and then drill holes into 3+ foot concrete foundation. Also, the logistics kept us from including the pool in our GSHP plans (it has an ASHP) leading to the silly situation of simultaneously heating the pool and cooling the house :oops:

All that said, we could not be happier.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
theplayer11
Posts: 2282
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by theplayer11 »

Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49038
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Valuethinker »

yarden60 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:38 pm Hi -

We need a new oil boiler (propane will actually be more expensive), so am wondering what brands you have experience with and what you like and dislike about the unit.

Anyone with a 3 pass boiler (higher efficiency than a pin style though more expensive)? Indirect Hot water?

Want something solid, but not just expensive for expensive sake. Heating help says contractor is important and 3 pass is the way to go, but wondering brands and about your experiences (service calls, oil use....).

THanks!

PS am in the cold NE, heating help site says HPs don't make sense.
It's possible an HP would work for you (the Japanese, see some posts by talzara on this Forum, make some really good cold weather ones). But you might be a in a situation where you would need a backup source (ie electric bar has Coefficient of Performance of 1.0, a gas or propane or oil furnace is around 0.9).

Yes go for the highest efficiency boiler you can. Because you are only going to do this once (hopefully) and that is the time to lock in. Go for an Energy Star rated model - you should be able to get efficiency into the 90+%.

It's worth having an Energy Audit of your home done first - often utilities will pay for that. There may be things you can do with insulation which will significantly reduce your total oil consumption (and necessary size of boiler).

On Indirect hot water. That's the norm here (United Kingdom). It works fine *but* it does depend a bit on size and insulation of your hot water tank (mine cost me a lot, but is a modern Italian design. 55 US Gal. 4" of foam sprayed on. thermal breaks at the base so it doesn't leak heat into the ground). You may find it preferrable just to have (as most North American homes seem to) a separate unit for hot water (whether electric or heat pump).
Valuethinker
Posts: 49038
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Valuethinker »

theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
Buderus is a well respected brand in Europe.
User avatar
Harry Livermore
Posts: 1937
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:32 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Harry Livermore »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:22 pm
New build would have been much easier. 5 wells going down 200’ into mostly bedrock. The various other utilities would not mark, as it was too far off the main road. We had to use what they called an “archeological vaccuum” to Hoover up the dirt around the entry to the house and then drill holes into 3+ foot concrete foundation. Also, the logistics kept us from including the pool in our GSHP plans (it has an ASHP) leading to the silly situation of simultaneously heating the pool and cooling the house :oops:

All that said, we could not be happier.
Ha. Oops indeed.
And is your heat forced hot air, or hydronic baseboard? It seems like the new-build homes with geo are all forced air which I loathe. I was just wondering how well it works with hydronic baseboard heating. If it's forced air, disregard.
And if anyone is itching for a fight about forced air versus baseboard, forget it, I won't bite...
:!:
Cheers
eddot98
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:47 am
Location: The Berkshires

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by eddot98 »

theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
theplayer11
Posts: 2282
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:55 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by theplayer11 »

eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
eddot98
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:47 am
Location: The Berkshires

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by eddot98 »

theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:47 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
Our chimney is brick from 1891 and it didn’t have any liner at all and there weren’t any problems with our old HB Smith boiler. Regarding the noise level: we can hear the Buderus on the second floor of our house and the Buderus is in the basement. In the attic, we hear the exhaust gases going up the chimney.
FRANK2009
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:16 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by FRANK2009 »

I replaced my ancient boiler with a Buderus in 2014. Looked at a few HVAC forums on line and that brand kept comming up as the brand to get. i am using about 25% less oil per year.
Topic Author
yarden60
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:56 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by yarden60 »

eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:32 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:47 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
Our chimney is brick from 1891 and it didn’t have any liner at all and there weren’t any problems with our old HB Smith boiler. Regarding the noise level: we can hear the Buderus on the second floor of our house and the Buderus is in the basement. In the attic, we hear the exhaust gases going up the chimney.

Someone mentioned that I might need the residual heat from the boiler I use now to heat the cellar where it's currently located. Did you experience a big drop in temperature where your new Buderus is located compared to the old system and room temperature? wondering is this could truly be an issue. No installers have mentioned that to me.
talzara
Posts: 4745
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:40 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by talzara »

Valuethinker wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:54 pm It's possible an HP would work for you (the Japanese, see some posts by talzara on this Forum, make some really good cold weather ones). But you might be a in a situation where you would need a backup source (ie electric bar has Coefficient of Performance of 1.0, a gas or propane or oil furnace is around 0.9).
At current oil prices, Asian low-temperature mini-split heat pumps will save money through most of the winter. They're so good that they can be run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for the entire winter. I did the calculations for Massachusetts in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=6310458

It depends on why the OP is replacing the boiler.

If the boiler is on its last legs, then it should be replaced. The OP has to get through the winter, and it would be expensive to replace a hydronic system with heat pumps.

If the boiler is just inefficient, then an Asian mini-split would be a good upgrade. The old boiler can be left in place and used as backup heat. Since it is running less, its efficiency will not matter as much.
UnLearnYourself
Posts: 605
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by UnLearnYourself »

vg55 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:47 pm Time to consider leaving fossil fuel behind. Air source heat pumps work great. Even down to the teens, depending on model.

I added to air source heat pumps and now have my aging boiler as a backup. When the temps drop below 20, it changes over to oil.

look for local State and utility subsidies as well. some go as high as 15k.
This.

In my personal experience - both as an owner of air source heat pumps as well as working in the energy efficiency field in MA - most people in New England will likely want to retain their oil/gas/wood/pellet backup if they're planning to go for heat pumps. Design of the home, and even room to room, has a large impact on how heat pumps will perform during the coldest days of the year - ceiling height, number and type of windows, insulation level, floorplan, etc. My conclusion is that a home needs to be designed specifically with these systems in mind in order for them to thrive in all conditions. However, I am still a big proponent to buy them.

As an experiment when I bought mine I ran them 24/7 as the manufacturer recommended. My electric bill went through the roof - much higher than my prior monthly oil costs. Then I started using them only as needed, and costs went down considerably and we kept comfortable - comparable to what I was spending on oil. However I would notice the systems working VERY hard first thing in the morning, in the evening, and when temps got down close to or below zero. So I programmed my oil furnace to run for 1 hour just before we wake up, then for 1 hour as its getting dark in the winter. This brings the house up to temp, or saturates it with a bit of extra heat, and allows the minisplits to simply maintain the temp afterwards. This is where my net costs are cheapest of all approaches, and my house most comfortable. So with my old home, layout, etc the most cost effective and efficient process was about 1 hr of oil use per day, and heat pumps for the rest of the day.

Do your homework, and make sure you link up with a contractor who understands this dynamic and can help you address your needs with all things considered.

Also, I assume utility and government rebates and incentives will be going up, up, up for these types of projects, so keep an eye on it as this next year rolls out. It will likely be changing rapidly so check back periodically till new programs stick.
User avatar
riverant
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 6:51 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by riverant »

I recently went through this process and chose a Viessman triple-pass oil burner. This is similar to the Buderus, but was just the preferred set up for the company I chose. It was way up there in price, about 17k including a new Chimney liner and HW storage tank, but I thought the efficiency and quality of installed made it worth it. In MA, that price is inclusive of about 1,500 in rebates and they also offered 0% financing for 7 years given the efficiency of the boiler.

I looked into heat pumps, which would've been possible given existing duct work from my AC. Electricity would've been fine since we have an oversized solar grid (which incidentally pays me incentives each month that match my boiler "payment"), but we also get some frigid temps where I'd be concerned it wouldn't work by itself. I like the hybrid idea UnLearnYourself posted above if I had a boiler that didn't need immediate replacement.

For reference, I spent just over $1,500 in oil in 2021 on my new setup compared to $1800, $2300, and 2,450 in 2020, 2019, and 2018 respectively.
eddot98
Posts: 1197
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:47 am
Location: The Berkshires

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by eddot98 »

yarden60 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:11 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:32 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:47 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
Our chimney is brick from 1891 and it didn’t have any liner at all and there weren’t any problems with our old HB Smith boiler. Regarding the noise level: we can hear the Buderus on the second floor of our house and the Buderus is in the basement. In the attic, we hear the exhaust gases going up the chimney.

Someone mentioned that I might need the residual heat from the boiler I use now to heat the cellar where it's currently located. Did you experience a big drop in temperature where your new Buderus is located compared to the old system and room temperature? wondering is this could truly be an issue. No installers have mentioned that to me.
I’m sorry, but I really don’t know the answer to your question. Our heating system is in the basement and our basement is unfinished and it hasn’t changed much in 130 years. It does have a concrete floor now and I know that it is not original. I probably go down there less than 10 times a year. DW has probably been down there twice in the 36 years we have lived here.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49038
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Valuethinker »

TJat wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:32 pm I recently went through this process and chose a Viessman triple-pass oil burner. This is similar to the Buderus, but was just the preferred set up for the company I chose. It was way up there in price, about 17k including a new Chimney liner and HW storage tank, but I thought the efficiency and quality of installed made it worth it. In MA, that price is inclusive of about 1,500 in rebates and they also offered 0% financing for 7 years given the efficiency of the boiler.

I looked into heat pumps, which would've been possible given existing duct work from my AC. Electricity would've been fine since we have an oversized solar grid (which incidentally pays me incentives each month that match my boiler "payment"), but we also get some frigid temps where I'd be concerned it wouldn't work by itself. I like the hybrid idea UnLearnYourself posted above if I had a boiler that didn't need immediate replacement.

For reference, I spent just over $1,500 in oil in 2021 on my new setup compared to $1800, $2300, and 2,450 in 2020, 2019, and 2018 respectively.
Gallons consumed, and also heating degree days for your particular location, are the key numbers to make the estimate of improvements.

The price moves around so much, and the usage due to weather (HDDs), that the actual $s spent is not that helpful. One of those historic years had the Polar Vortex?
Valuethinker
Posts: 49038
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Valuethinker »

eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:32 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:47 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
Our chimney is brick from 1891 and it didn’t have any liner at all and there weren’t any problems with our old HB Smith boiler. Regarding the noise level: we can hear the Buderus on the second floor of our house and the Buderus is in the basement. In the attic, we hear the exhaust gases going up the chimney.
It's inherent to the design of modern boilers that they produce a stream of condensate. In the old boilers that went up your chimney as steam--lost heat. A modern boiler has a secondary heat exchanger that pulls heat out of the exhaust gas so you get more lower temperature water as an output.

So yes an unlined chimney will get more condensation. My (gas) condensing boiler has its own "chimney" (about 18" of pipe in the outside wall) and a condensate drip line to the outdoor drain.

I don't know about increased noise. I suspect the technical specifications sheet has the dBA?
Valuethinker
Posts: 49038
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by Valuethinker »

yarden60 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:11 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:32 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:47 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
Our chimney is brick from 1891 and it didn’t have any liner at all and there weren’t any problems with our old HB Smith boiler. Regarding the noise level: we can hear the Buderus on the second floor of our house and the Buderus is in the basement. In the attic, we hear the exhaust gases going up the chimney.

Someone mentioned that I might need the residual heat from the boiler I use now to heat the cellar where it's currently located. Did you experience a big drop in temperature where your new Buderus is located compared to the old system and room temperature? wondering is this could truly be an issue. No installers have mentioned that to me.
Much of the heat your older boiler produces is going straight up the chimney as steam. The new ("condensing") boilers extract that heat and put it to work. So a greater output of heat (to hot water or air) from the same amount of chemical energy in the oil (or gas) aka higher efficiency.

An old boiler is an inefficient way to heat the basement compared to having a standalone heater. Of course the standalone heater would probably be electric, which is more expensive to run. But generally it should not be a problem - you only need the backup heater when you are actually down there.
User avatar
riverant
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 6:51 am

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by riverant »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:57 am
TJat wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:32 pm I recently went through this process and chose a Viessman triple-pass oil burner. This is similar to the Buderus, but was just the preferred set up for the company I chose. It was way up there in price, about 17k including a new Chimney liner and HW storage tank, but I thought the efficiency and quality of installed made it worth it. In MA, that price is inclusive of about 1,500 in rebates and they also offered 0% financing for 7 years given the efficiency of the boiler.

I looked into heat pumps, which would've been possible given existing duct work from my AC. Electricity would've been fine since we have an oversized solar grid (which incidentally pays me incentives each month that match my boiler "payment"), but we also get some frigid temps where I'd be concerned it wouldn't work by itself. I like the hybrid idea UnLearnYourself posted above if I had a boiler that didn't need immediate replacement.

For reference, I spent just over $1,500 in oil in 2021 on my new setup compared to $1800, $2300, and 2,450 in 2020, 2019, and 2018 respectively.
Gallons consumed, and also heating degree days for your particular location, are the key numbers to make the estimate of improvements.

The price moves around so much, and the usage due to weather (HDDs), that the actual $s spent is not that helpful. One of those historic years had the Polar Vortex?
Very true. I only thought I had access to my expense history (Quicken), but your post inspired me to investigate my account with my oil provider. Turns our I have delivery summaries going back to 2019. My gallons purchased have dropped significantly since I added attic insulation/air sealing in mid-2019 and replaced the boiler as described. I'll also add that the average price I paid this year per gallon is equal to what I paid in 2019.

2019: 771 gallons
2020: 748 gallons
2021: 639 gallons

I'll second the comment about the noise of the newer boilers. There's more of a noticeable hum indoors when mine is on and even a somewhat strange noise when standing outside by the chimney. Nothing I'd complain about...just different.
abner kravitz
Posts: 1024
Joined: Tue May 05, 2015 7:42 am
Location: East Coast

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by abner kravitz »

I know very little about boilers, I have a furnace. I do know that “new Buderus boiler” is a highlight in a lot of real estate listings around here (CT). Kind of like “granite countertops” used to be.
jharkin
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:14 am
Location: Boston suburbs

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by jharkin »

UnLearnYourself wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 12:58 pm
vg55 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 2:47 pm Time to consider leaving fossil fuel behind. Air source heat pumps work great. Even down to the teens, depending on model.

I added to air source heat pumps and now have my aging boiler as a backup. When the temps drop below 20, it changes over to oil.

look for local State and utility subsidies as well. some go as high as 15k.
This.

In my personal experience - both as an owner of air source heat pumps as well as working in the energy efficiency field in MA - most people in New England will likely want to retain their oil/gas/wood/pellet backup if they're planning to go for heat pumps. Design of the home, and even room to room, has a large impact on how heat pumps will perform during the coldest days of the year - ceiling height, number and type of windows, insulation level, floorplan, etc. My conclusion is that a home needs to be designed specifically with these systems in mind in order for them to thrive in all conditions. However, I am still a big proponent to buy them.

As an experiment when I bought mine I ran them 24/7 as the manufacturer recommended. My electric bill went through the roof - much higher than my prior monthly oil costs. Then I started using them only as needed, and costs went down considerably and we kept comfortable - comparable to what I was spending on oil. However I would notice the systems working VERY hard first thing in the morning, in the evening, and when temps got down close to or below zero. So I programmed my oil furnace to run for 1 hour just before we wake up, then for 1 hour as its getting dark in the winter. This brings the house up to temp, or saturates it with a bit of extra heat, and allows the minisplits to simply maintain the temp afterwards. This is where my net costs are cheapest of all approaches, and my house most comfortable. So with my old home, layout, etc the most cost effective and efficient process was about 1 hr of oil use per day, and heat pumps for the rest of the day.

Do your homework, and make sure you link up with a contractor who understands this dynamic and can help you address your needs with all things considered.

Also, I assume utility and government rebates and incentives will be going up, up, up for these types of projects, so keep an eye on it as this next year rolls out. It will likely be changing rapidly so check back periodically till new programs stick.

+1 We just a couple weeks ago had a Mitsubishi hyper heat (ducted) system to replace our first floor AC zone. COP4 @47F, COP2@5F, COP1.75 @-15F at max output. Primary heat was retained - a 95% condensing propane boiler - but at $3/gallon its EXPENSIVE no matter how efficient.

The Mitsubishi so far is handling the entire floor very well and I suspect a lot of heat is bleeding upstairs as well. We have elec monitoring and like you noticed that the electric use skyrocketed - the HP has used an extra 20-30kWh/day and so far the coldest its gone overnight is about 25. But in perspective, even at high MA rates that's only $5-7/day of electricity; whereas the propane might burn 5-10 gallons a day in deep winter ($15-30).

What is yet to be seen is how much of my propane use is really being offset by the HP. I have to wait for the next truck delivery in a few weeks to calculate it. The efficiency curves say that mathematically the heat pump should be cheaper than propane at any outdoor temp over 10F, but of course the real world can very significantly depending on weather patterns, whether it has to go into defrost cycles, what % of time its running at low output vs max capacity, etc.

If the savings are not so clear cut what I may do is setup a time program so that the HP runs during the day and then sets back at night when its less efficient to let the propane maintain.

Oh and like Tomatho I looked at the Geo option, but unfortunately there is no way to make the numbers work. ASHP cost about $3500/ton post rebate for a COP of 3-4 and was a drop in replacement for our existing air handler. Geo would only have improved the COP to about 5 but even after the rebates and 26% tax credits it would only come down to about $7000/ton. The breakeven vs. air source wouldn't happen in my lifetime.
RetiredAL
Posts: 3537
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:09 am
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by RetiredAL »

IMO, a very high concern with ASHP in a colder climate, is that when your need the most heat, it's running at its lowest efficiency and delivering the least heat. If you feel you have a need for a backup heating system, either oil or propane, these greatly alter one's overall cost structure -- the cost 2 systems to maintain plus the cost of fuel used.
jharkin
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:14 am
Location: Boston suburbs

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by jharkin »

RetiredAL wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 12:19 pm IMO, a very high concern with ASHP in a colder climate, is that when your need the most heat, it's running at its lowest efficiency and delivering the least heat. If you feel you have a need for a backup heating system, either oil or propane, these greatly alter one's overall cost structure -- the cost 2 systems to maintain plus the cost of fuel used.
This is where Mitsubishi Hyper Heat and the similar cold climate Fujitsu's etc shine. They maintain full rated output to -15F, and partially heat to something like -30. Short of northern Canada there are few locations where they would need the backup afaik.

Usually in a retrofit you just leave the existing system in place (like I did) and either manually switch over if needed, or install a dual fuel control that programs a switchover point based on outside temp.

If I was building brand new construction I would not bother with installing a second heating system and just have them install the optional emergency electric resistance heat element. Really the only time it would ever be needed with a Hyper Heat unit is if the compressor failed, as even at -15F when its running at a lowly 1.75COP its still cheaper to operate than electric resistance and probably just about parity with oil/propane.
jharkin
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:14 am
Location: Boston suburbs

Re: New Oil boilers - your experience and comments please.

Post by jharkin »

Valuethinker wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:02 am
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:32 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:47 pm
eddot98 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 5:41 pm
theplayer11 wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:52 pm Buderus with a Riello burner installed 9 years ago, not a single problem.
We also installed a Buderus with a Riello burner about 7 years ago in our home in western Massachusetts. We have hot water off the boiler and a SuperStore hot water tank. We do not run out of hot water. A couple of things about the Buderus - it is loud, much louder than our older HB Smith boiler. A second thing - it is so efficient that the exhaust gas cools before it gets to the top of the chimney in our two story home with a full walk up attic. We had to install a chimney liner to keep condescension from seeping through the brick chimney. No one told us about that until we had black water in the attic. Luckily, we detected it before any real damage occurred.
interesting about the condensation. I haven't noticed a problem but will investigate. In regards to it being loud, I haven't noticed it being any louder than any other boilers I've had, if anything it's quieter. G115 model
Our chimney is brick from 1891 and it didn’t have any liner at all and there weren’t any problems with our old HB Smith boiler. Regarding the noise level: we can hear the Buderus on the second floor of our house and the Buderus is in the basement. In the attic, we hear the exhaust gases going up the chimney.
It's inherent to the design of modern boilers that they produce a stream of condensate. In the old boilers that went up your chimney as steam--lost heat. A modern boiler has a secondary heat exchanger that pulls heat out of the exhaust gas so you get more lower temperature water as an output.

So yes an unlined chimney will get more condensation. My (gas) condensing boiler has its own "chimney" (about 18" of pipe in the outside wall) and a condensate drip line to the outdoor drain.

I don't know about increased noise. I suspect the technical specifications sheet has the dBA?
Are there actual condensing oil boilers on the market?

My house has a condensing propane boiler. there are a number of challenges with condensing equipment:

1 - The water circulation return temperature has to be below the point where water vapor condenses out of the flue gasses. For natural gas and propane this means return water temps ideally around110-120F, maybe 140 max. This works fine with in-floor radiant, and so-so with European style panel radiators. American style fin tube baseboard is a challenge as most often existing stuff was sized for 160-180F circulation and at 120 it doesn't put out enough heat. In my house its a retrofit and we have to crank up the heating temp curve on the boiler to the point where it only operates in the high efficiency condensing mode during the shoulder months of Oct and Mar/Apr. The rest of the time it ramps up to 160F and the efficiency drops to around 80-85%.

2 - Condensing the flue gases causes lots of corrosive chemicals to run back down the flue and collect in the heat exchanger. At a minimum this means stainless steel heat exchangers and corrosion proof PVC flue pipes, even on natural gas. Oil I would imagine would have even more severe issues with the condensate water being full of sulfur and soot particles.
Post Reply