Tow vehicle

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the journey
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Tow vehicle

Post by the journey »

Hello all,

I wanted to get responses from the group about a vehicle purchase question.

Presently have an F150 and have been towing the camper that we purchased Spring of 2020 for our family of 6. Our camper is a 32 foot bumper pull and is 7400 dry. The F150 is within the specs to tow the camper but the tow vehicle (TV) ratio and weight is less than desirable with the camper. I grew up on a farm and have experience towing so I’ve been able to handle the set up thus far.

We have been camping roughly 20 times with the camper and I’m pulled it around 3k miles. We normally camp within 1-3 hours of home. So, I have a lot of experience towing with this set up.

I did not upgrade my truck as I did not want any further capital outlay at that time. However, I’ve been thinking lately of taking up to a heavier vehicle.

However, I’m stuck on the cost of the upgrade. With a Diesel engine, 3/4 ton, and mid level trim the vehicle is around 65k. Also the insurance and fuel costs will be higher. For my vehicle I put about 7k miles a year.

The used vehicle market is high right now, so the above vehicle is new. I would prefer a new vehicle with some upgrades but still mid tier cost range.

I have the difference between the trade and the new vehicle available in cash. Our savings goals are on track and actually better than I forecasted with my IPS several years ago.

I guess I’m stuck on the whole hedonic treadmill idea. I want to continue to save aggressively but I don’t want to be unwise as this specific question does point to safety as well.

This purchase will do affect our financial security or goals, but it does lend itself to the inflating lifestyle discussion.

I enjoy hearing the perspective and wisdom of the group, so this is why I sought a discussion.

Thanks
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Sandtrap
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Sandtrap »

Consider a used (up to several years old) F-350 where your towing needs are more than covered.
Often, used F-350's have less miles than a F-250 because it ends up being a 3rd "car" and driven less because it's bought and used only for specific uses, vs a daily driver like your F-150.
If you find an excellent used model with the Cummins diesel, it will run forever. But, they are getting rare.

If your F-150 is "your daily driver", and in excellent condition, then consider keeping it, then just use the F-350 for towing.
Maybe going this route would be much cheaper in the long run?

I drove loaded nice F-150's for 4 decades as my "daily driver", but bought used F-250/350's for heavier work so I wouldn't destroy the suspension and wear out my daily driver.

j :D
Last edited by Sandtrap on Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by JoeRetire »

the journey wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:16 am I guess I’m stuck on the whole hedonic treadmill idea. I want to continue to save aggressively but I don’t want to be unwise as this specific question does point to safety as well.
Clearly you will get some responses that will tell you to spend the extra money. "You only live once." "Life is for living." "Work hard, play hard" etc, etc.
And you'll get some responses that will tell you to avoid the hedonic treadmill. "Stay the course" "The future is in your hands" etc, etc.

Ultimately, how much we spend today, versus how much we save for the future is a deeply personal decision that only we can make for ourselves. We each must find our own balance that brings us the most joy today and provides for the most joy tomorrow. The fact that you decided to spend the time to write this post and express your concerns probably means you aren't in much danger of getting out of control in your spending habits.

Think it over. Consult with your loved ones. Then make your decision, and don't look back.
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Point
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Point »

4WD, diesel, 250 will cut it. New or used. Non diesel if you prefer. May not need a weight distribution hitch, but anti sway would be good.Ford had issues with particles in the fuel from pump, so do your research. Chevy, Ram or Ford are all good used. They have good repair options nationally.
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Watty
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Watty »

the journey wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:16 am The F150 is within the specs to tow the camper but the tow vehicle (TV) ratio and weight is less than desirable with the camper. I grew up on a farm and have experience towing so I’ve been able to handle the set up thus far.
You have qualms about the safety. Whenever I have had a gut feel about something and ignored it my gut was usually right even if I got lucky and there was not a problem. Pay attention to your gut feeling.

It was not clear if you take two vehicles when you are camping. If not then taking two vehicles on future trips might allow you to put more of the weight in the other vehicle which might help. I know nothing about trailers so that is just speculation.
the journey wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:16 am I enjoy hearing the perspective and wisdom of the group, so this is why I sought a discussion.
Owning a camper or RV is really a lifestyle choice and not a financial decisions. The numbers might not look good but if you can afford spending money on that is little different than flying overseas on a expensive trip since it is not a financial decision.

When I have looked at buying an RV it was always far less expensive to get a hotel or rent a cabin or condo so in general they are not a good financial choice but that is OK since owning one is not really a financial decision.

Just for brainstorming I vaguely recall hearing about someone who was older who did not want to drive a his big RV anymore so they hired someone to move the RV for him. It would be a lot different but with $65K price and ongoing costs it might be less expensive to pay to have someone tow the camper for you since you are only going short distances.
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firebirdparts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by firebirdparts »

The diesels have kinda gone out of style, FWIW. The standard 6.2 or the pushrod 7.3 would be fine and save you 10 thousand. You’d still have all the safety benefits of a bigger heavier tow vehicle.
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smitcat
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by smitcat »

the journey wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:16 am Hello all,

I wanted to get responses from the group about a vehicle purchase question.

Presently have an F150 and have been towing the camper that we purchased Spring of 2020 for our family of 6. Our camper is a 32 foot bumper pull and is 7400 dry. The F150 is within the specs to tow the camper but the tow vehicle (TV) ratio and weight is less than desirable with the camper. I grew up on a farm and have experience towing so I’ve been able to handle the set up thus far.

We have been camping roughly 20 times with the camper and I’m pulled it around 3k miles. We normally camp within 1-3 hours of home. So, I have a lot of experience towing with this set up.

I did not upgrade my truck as I did not want any further capital outlay at that time. However, I’ve been thinking lately of taking up to a heavier vehicle.

However, I’m stuck on the cost of the upgrade. With a Diesel engine, 3/4 ton, and mid level trim the vehicle is around 65k. Also the insurance and fuel costs will be higher. For my vehicle I put about 7k miles a year.

The used vehicle market is high right now, so the above vehicle is new. I would prefer a new vehicle with some upgrades but still mid tier cost range.

I have the difference between the trade and the new vehicle available in cash. Our savings goals are on track and actually better than I forecasted with my IPS several years ago.

I guess I’m stuck on the whole hedonic treadmill idea. I want to continue to save aggressively but I don’t want to be unwise as this specific question does point to safety as well.

This purchase will do affect our financial security or goals, but it does lend itself to the inflating lifestyle discussion.

I enjoy hearing the perspective and wisdom of the group, so this is why I sought a discussion.

Thanks
"However, I’m stuck on the cost of the upgrade. With a Diesel engine, 3/4 ton, and mid level trim the vehicle is around 65k. Also the insurance and fuel costs will be higher. For my vehicle I put about 7k miles a year."
You should do what you want but let me point out our data points for fuel and insurance for your use.
We recently had both late model 1500 gas and 2500 diesel Silverado pickups at the same time - both were 4wd/crew/short bed/tow package etc.
Fuel use between the two unloaded was about the same with the gas truck getting the edge by about 1-2 mpg around town and the diesel getting the edge by about the same on mostly hwy travel.
When towing higher loads (9-10K #'s) the fuel use on the diesel was much lower.
The insurance on the 2500 was less mostly due to the higher end safety package as it was slightly newer.
I would make calls about your insurance ahead of time as different areas and companies vary.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Some questions. Have you found your gas engine struggling while towing? If no, then I'd forget the diesel which most sellers have felt is more valuable than gold since at least the 70's, when I've looked at them. As far as towing capacity, you really can make your F-150 do the job with aftermarket stuff. Bigger brakes, bigger transmission cooler, bigger engine oil cooler, suspension modifications which could be springs and shocks or added helper springs or bags.

I've towed with way inadequate vehicles that taught me what to avoid and what to get. Here's my take. Wheelbase is everything. I towed my racecar on an open trailer with a 2 door TJ Wrangler and that was a bad setup. Moving to a Suburban made a night/day difference and while yes, it was heavier, it had a much longer wheelbase. More wheelbase physics means the trailer needs way more force to upset the truck. Next for me was brakes and even the Suburban with the upgraded enclosed trailer for the racecar wasn't happy coming down the hills on the way back from Lime Rock. Beyond that, for me, it was a complete "don't care". My engine (2000 model) was the last year of the little 4.8L and heading to Lime Rock meant for several of the long hills that I built up speed before the hill. I'm sure you know how to do that.

So after all these words, I'd honestly keep your present truck and simply do some towing modifications as above to make it work better. If I personally was replacing this, I'd get a 3/4 ton Suburban and put a bunch of the stuff in the back of the cargo area that are normally in the trailer. I did that with the racecar, with tools always in the cargo area until I got to the track.
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tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

You don't say what your storage situation is and some responses (buying an extra truck for example) would work better or worse depending on that.

Since it hasn't been mentioned, you could also ditch the trailer and buy a motorhome, which presumably would have a sufficient chassis for the application (although some are light on seating locations and even on cargo weight capacity.)
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Nate79
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Nate79 »

I would go with a gas instead of diesel in 3/4 or 1 ton. Diesel is a luxury, definitely not needed in your case. I would not be surprised that you are overweight on payload or axel weights unless you have fully loaded scale weights.
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

Nate79 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:30 am I would go with a gas instead of diesel in 3/4 or 1 ton. Diesel is a luxury, definitely not needed in your case. I would not be surprised that you are overweight on payload or axel weights unless you have fully loaded scale weights.
Presumably the OP has the Ford with the four full doors and microscopic bed, which I believe provides nearly 2800 lbs in payload capacity, so somewhat more of a chance of being within gross weight rating than with other half-ton trucks. On the other hand six large people plus the trailer could still be problematic. Actually with some 3/4t diesel trucks, the weight of the engine reduces carrying capacity substantially vs. gas models, so that's something to be considered in the gas/diesel debate.
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willthrill81
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by willthrill81 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:28 am Some questions. Have you found your gas engine struggling while towing? If no, then I'd forget the diesel which most sellers have felt is more valuable than gold since at least the 70's, when I've looked at them. As far as towing capacity, you really can make your F-150 do the job with aftermarket stuff. Bigger brakes, bigger transmission cooler, bigger engine oil cooler, suspension modifications which could be springs and shocks or added helper springs or bags.
I second your recommendation. Maintenance on a diesel can be a real pain in terms of both money and the time involved. And quality aftermarket upgrades can make a significant difference. In addition to those you mentioned, I would add that a good weight distributing hitch is nearly always a great idea.
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tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

willthrill81 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:42 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:28 am Some questions. Have you found your gas engine struggling while towing? If no, then I'd forget the diesel which most sellers have felt is more valuable than gold since at least the 70's, when I've looked at them. As far as towing capacity, you really can make your F-150 do the job with aftermarket stuff. Bigger brakes, bigger transmission cooler, bigger engine oil cooler, suspension modifications which could be springs and shocks or added helper springs or bags.
I second your recommendation. Maintenance on a diesel can be a real pain in terms of both money and the time involved. And quality aftermarket upgrades can make a significant difference. In addition to those you mentioned, I would add that a good weight distributing hitch is nearly always a great idea.
I'd temper that with the consideration that this is a new F150, vs. one from the "old days", where indeed aftermarket equipment made a huge, huge difference. The newer vehicles are much more optimized off the assembly line (assuming appropriate options of course) than years ago. Of course there are still some areas where there can be improvements - for example there seem to be suspension modifications that help stability in 1-ton trucks carrying slide-in campers. As opposed to even a dozen years ago, almost everybody seems to be towing with a hitch integrating sway control with weight distribution, plus the preinstalled brake controllers in tow vehicles have capabilities that older add-on ones didn't.
niagara_guy
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by niagara_guy »

I tow a 33 foot bumper pull Airstream with a ¾ ton Dodge Cummins. The rig is great, even in strong crosswinds. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I would not tow a 33 foot with a ½ ton pickup, even if it was rated to tow the trailer weight. I think the trailer length is too long for a ½ ton. Just my .02$.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by quantAndHold »

I can’t advise specifically what you should get, but I personally would not pull that trailer with that truck. I would either downsize the trailer, or get a beefier truck.
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

niagara_guy wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:09 am I tow a 33 foot bumper pull Airstream with a ¾ ton Dodge Cummins. The rig is great, even in strong crosswinds. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I would not tow a 33 foot with a ½ ton pickup, even if it was rated to tow the trailer weight. I think the trailer length is too long for a ½ ton. Just my .02$.
That would be the consensus view on RV forums for sure. Well, even there the diesels seem to be falling out of favor, but in terms of chassis they'd be in the at-least-3/4-ton camp. For those not familiar with the truck designations, there tends to be a substantial gap in capability between properly-equipped 1/2 and 3/4-ton, while there's often much less difference between 3/4 and 1-ton single-rear-wheel. There have been at various times "heavy"1/2-ton trucks produced that were sort of hybrids between 1/2 and 3/4-ton, and to some extent the F150 (alone, as far as I know) still offers some of those hybrid capabilities today.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Sandtrap »

niagara_guy wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:09 am I tow a 33 foot bumper pull Airstream with a ¾ ton Dodge Cummins. The rig is great, even in strong crosswinds. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I would not tow a 33 foot with a ½ ton pickup, even if it was rated to tow the trailer weight. I think the trailer length is too long for a ½ ton. Just my .02$.
+1
Great setup. Especially for a rear tow hitch vs 5th wheel bed mount which would be ideal.

In the Southwest, what seems to be the safety and handling standard for large heavy RV trailers are 1 ton dually's with 5th wheel bed mounts.
Trailers include: hay, livestock, RV's, heavy equipment, building materials, etc.

j :D
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LLeaff
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by LLeaff »

What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?

As mentioned financially its a loosing move (based on my experience). We did it because we have a young family. So far the memories have not disappointed. And we assumed that once the kids hit 16/17 they'll rather be doing things with their friends
DoubleComma
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by DoubleComma »

Sounds like you understand the various weight limits, meaning you know cargo carrying capacity is where most folks fail first when matching a tow vehicle to a TT.

You quote your TT empty weight, but get the weight as it’s packed and ready to go out. This will get you a more accurate tongue weight with batteries and full propane. The CAT scale available at nearly any truck stop is easiest way. It’s takes 3 passes to get the all the necessary weights.

We are only towing boats now, but for ~ 10 years we had Travel Trailers, the biggest was a Jayco 29QBH which was very similar in size to yours, 33’ 8200 lbs loaded with 11oo lbs tongue weight.

As for the truck, get the brand you want. I would 100% recommend a diesel and personally prefer single rear tire 350/3500, but a 250/2500 will handle nearly any bumper pull. I drove a Chevy Duramax with years or trouble free towing. Down I have a Ram and love it. My FIL is a Ford exclusive guy…my point is any of the big 3 make a great diesel truck.

If you confident you won’t upgrade trailers, a F150 3.5l EcoBoost with max tow AND max cargo is a good non diesel option. However this is a bit of a unicorn to find on a lot (new or used) so if you have to order it the price will be very similar to getting a fully capable diesel.
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

LLeaff wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:31 am What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?
...
That topic comes up a lot on forums, but to my knowledge nobody has ever reported a single example instance of actual criminal or even civil liability specific to tow or weight ratings. There must have been some but maybe it's just not common except in truly extreme cases.
LLeaff
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by LLeaff »

DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:35 am ... a F150 3.5l EcoBoost with max tow AND max cargo is a good non diesel option. However this is a bit of a unicorn to find on a lot (new or used) so if you have to order it the price will be very similar to getting a fully capable diesel.
This is what we did. As a daily driver the 250's suspension was too rigid. I was an unpleasant drive. The max tow with heavy duty payload package was somewhere between a standard 150 and 250 for rigidity and has a payload limit of ~2500 pounds.

I will point out that the newer EcoBoost generations still have the phaser rattle issue. Look this up if you are considering
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:35 am If you confident you won’t upgrade trailers, a F150 3.5l EcoBoost with max tow AND max cargo is a good non diesel option. However this is a bit of a unicorn to find on a lot (new or used) so if you have to order it the price will be very similar to getting a fully capable diesel.
It seems like at one point those options (max payload and max towing) were mutually exclusive, but I'm not sure, and don't know why they would/should be. The last I looked the non-EcoBoost versions were still slightly higher-rated, at least for payload.

I do know the same options in different bed/cab configurations are dramatically different in ratings - again, no idea why, the difference is way beyond any difference in the weight of the metal and glass involved.
Last edited by tibbitts on Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
LLeaff
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by LLeaff »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:44 am
LLeaff wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:31 am What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?
...
That topic comes up a lot on forums, but to my knowledge nobody has ever reported a single example instance of actual criminal or even civil liability specific to tow or weight ratings. There must have been some but maybe it's just not common except in truly extreme cases.
It sure does. I've yet to see an answer/opinion from someone I'd have faith in.
LLeaff
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by LLeaff »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:48 am
DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:35 am If you confident you won’t upgrade trailers, a F150 3.5l EcoBoost with max tow AND max cargo is a good non diesel option. However this is a bit of a unicorn to find on a lot (new or used) so if you have to order it the price will be very similar to getting a fully capable diesel.
It seems like at one point those options (max payload and max towing) were mutually exclusive, but I'm not sure, and don't know why they would/should be
You have to get the right combinations to get both. When I bought, you had to have the 3.5 ecoboost in XLT. It looks like now you can get it with both the 3.5 ecoboost and the V8. I'd opt for the V8
tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:48 amI do know the same options in different bed/cab configurations are dramatically different in ratings - again, no idea why, the difference is way beyond any difference in the weight of the metal and glass involved.
I don't know why either, but I trust Ford's numbers
smitcat
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by smitcat »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:24 am
niagara_guy wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:09 am I tow a 33 foot bumper pull Airstream with a ¾ ton Dodge Cummins. The rig is great, even in strong crosswinds. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I would not tow a 33 foot with a ½ ton pickup, even if it was rated to tow the trailer weight. I think the trailer length is too long for a ½ ton. Just my .02$.
That would be the consensus view on RV forums for sure. Well, even there the diesels seem to be falling out of favor, but in terms of chassis they'd be in the at-least-3/4-ton camp. For those not familiar with the truck designations, there tends to be a substantial gap in capability between properly-equipped 1/2 and 3/4-ton, while there's often much less difference between 3/4 and 1-ton single-rear-wheel. There have been at various times "heavy"1/2-ton trucks produced that were sort of hybrids between 1/2 and 3/4-ton, and to some extent the F150 (alone, as far as I know) still offers some of those hybrid capabilities today.
Agreed - huge difference in towing capability between 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks - suspensions, tires, wheels, brakes, transmissions, etc.
Also have a larger capacity with diesel vs gas for longer and/or heavier hauls - turbo brakes, extra cooling, less fuel used.
We have compared them head to head as we have a 1500 and 2500 diesel and our future son in law has a 2500 gas all very similarly equipped.
And the newer trucks with sway control and safety packages even make it easier.
DoubleComma
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by DoubleComma »

LLeaff wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:31 am What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?

As mentioned financially its a loosing move (based on my experience). We did it because we have a young family. So far the memories have not disappointed. And we assumed that once the kids hit 16/17 they'll rather be doing things with their friends
First, you should have an appropriate sized and spec’d vehicle for the job your asking it to do. Towing isn’t the time to find a small economy vehicle and convince yourself you only tow a small percentage of overall miles and it’s always flat ground and you neighbor has gotten away with it for year. It’s this thinking that gets people in trouble.


That said, nothing happens with respect to coverage if you have an accident with a mismatched vehicle/trailer combo. Your insurance kicks in just like any accident. It’s pure urban legend you won’t have coverage. I challenge you to find any documentable proof of an insurance company declining coverage.

It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well. They may drop you after, but you are covered.
smitcat
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by smitcat »

DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:03 am
LLeaff wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:31 am What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?

As mentioned financially its a loosing move (based on my experience). We did it because we have a young family. So far the memories have not disappointed. And we assumed that once the kids hit 16/17 they'll rather be doing things with their friends
First, you should have an appropriate sized and spec’d vehicle for the job your asking it to do. Towing isn’t the time to find a small economy vehicle and convince yourself you only tow a small percentage of overall miles and it’s always flat ground and you neighbor has gotten away with it for year. It’s this thinking that gets people in trouble.


That said, nothing happens with respect to coverage if you have an accident with a mismatched vehicle/trailer combo. Your insurance kicks in just like any accident. It’s pure urban legend you won’t have coverage. I challenge you to find any documentable proof of an insurance company declining coverage.

It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well. They may drop you after, but you are covered.

"It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well."
Right up to the maximum coverage amount - in lawsuits that is.
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Phranklin
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Phranklin »

firebirdparts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 am The diesels have kinda gone out of style, FWIW. The standard 6.2 or the pushrod 7.3 would be fine and save you 10 thousand. You’d still have all the safety benefits of a bigger heavier tow vehicle.
Yep. 7.3 is a 2k option for the Superduty line. It's a no brainer for me in this use case.
DoubleComma
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by DoubleComma »

smitcat wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:08 am
DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:03 am
LLeaff wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:31 am What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?

As mentioned financially its a loosing move (based on my experience). We did it because we have a young family. So far the memories have not disappointed. And we assumed that once the kids hit 16/17 they'll rather be doing things with their friends
First, you should have an appropriate sized and spec’d vehicle for the job your asking it to do. Towing isn’t the time to find a small economy vehicle and convince yourself you only tow a small percentage of overall miles and it’s always flat ground and you neighbor has gotten away with it for year. It’s this thinking that gets people in trouble.


That said, nothing happens with respect to coverage if you have an accident with a mismatched vehicle/trailer combo. Your insurance kicks in just like any accident. It’s pure urban legend you won’t have coverage. I challenge you to find any documentable proof of an insurance company declining coverage.

It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well. They may drop you after, but you are covered.

"It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well."
Right up to the maximum coverage amount - in lawsuits that is.
Exactly, the limits still apply, just like any accident.
smitcat
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by smitcat »

DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:21 am
smitcat wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:08 am
DoubleComma wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:03 am
LLeaff wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:31 am What happens if you cause (or are involved in) an accident and your tow vehicle isn't spec'd for the trailer you're towing?

How does having an undersized tow vehicle affect the odds of having an accident? Trailer sway, longer braking distances, etc..

If adverse conditions occur (windy, rainy, uphill/downhill, high altitudes, semi on the highway, other drivers) what setup gives you the best probability of safety.

Shouldn't these risk be factored into your decision?

As mentioned financially its a loosing move (based on my experience). We did it because we have a young family. So far the memories have not disappointed. And we assumed that once the kids hit 16/17 they'll rather be doing things with their friends
First, you should have an appropriate sized and spec’d vehicle for the job your asking it to do. Towing isn’t the time to find a small economy vehicle and convince yourself you only tow a small percentage of overall miles and it’s always flat ground and you neighbor has gotten away with it for year. It’s this thinking that gets people in trouble.


That said, nothing happens with respect to coverage if you have an accident with a mismatched vehicle/trailer combo. Your insurance kicks in just like any accident. It’s pure urban legend you won’t have coverage. I challenge you to find any documentable proof of an insurance company declining coverage.

It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well. They may drop you after, but you are covered.

"It’s no different than getting into an accident while speeding or worse after drinking. You insurance covers those as well."
Right up to the maximum coverage amount - in lawsuits that is.
Exactly, the limits still apply, just like any accident.
Of course the effects and results of negligence does vary.
Topic Author
the journey
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by the journey »

Thanks to everyone for the input.

Good points on the weights. I can confirm that the truck/axle ratio is rated to tow the loaded camper weight and has been confirmed with the scales. The only caveat is that we always take two vehicles that hauls the other family members and a fair amount of the belongs. Also, we are careful how the trailer is loaded in regards to distribution of removable weight.

The big difference is the 145 wheelbase is close but not quite optimal for the wheelbase/length ratio. Although there is no hard and fast rule, the longer the wheelbase the less the vehicle will be tugged around.

I also run a weight distribution hitch and have bags for the rear suspension that certainly helps.

The daily driver aspect is something to consider. As sandtrap mentioned, have an F250 as a daily driver is not optimal. I do have the option to borrow an F250 from my parents for camping purposes which may be a reasonable.
tev9876
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tev9876 »

Here is a Youtube video I stumbled across some time ago that shows what happens when you pull too much trailer with too little truck (and no WD/sway control).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMpuGpmM6-Q
Plenty of others out there if you do a search.

I've had a 30' TT for two years now that I pull with my eight year old Ram 1500 crew cab. The truck is rated at 10K towing and 1K tongue weight - I have the outdoorsman trim which for that year came with beefier rear shocks and light truck instead of passenger tires like on the rest of the 1/2 ton line so I figure that helps a bit. My camper is rated about 5500 pounds dry. I figure I am somewhere around 6500 with stuff in it. I do have a solid WD hitch with integrated sway control.

It pulls OK and it has never scared me, but I would not want to pull more with this truck. I can definitely feel it if my water tanks are full or there is too much weight in the truck bed. I stick to the right lane and 65 mph max. When I decide to get a new truck I may go for a 3/4 ton if I am still into camping. I keep getting that new truck itch but it is the worst time right now to buy any vehicle.

Friends of mine have a TT that is probably 40' and easily a few thousand pounds heavier than mine but tell me it pulls fine with their 1/2 ton and a Hensley hitch which looks interesting. https://hensleymfg.com/how-does-the-hensley-hitch-work/
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

the journey wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:42 pm The big difference is the 145 wheelbase is close but not quite optimal for the wheelbase/length ratio. Although there is no hard and fast rule, the longer the wheelbase the less the vehicle will be tugged around.
However the longer the wheelbase the more miserable your life will be every minute you aren't towing (or are towing but not on a highway.)
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snackdog
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by snackdog »

If you are leaning toward an F350 as a third vehicle just for towing, you may want to compare that cost to the cost of trading the trailer for a Class A, B or C motorhome. Since you are already bringing a second vehicle on your trips, you don't even need a toad.
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Carlton
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Carlton »

From your post, since you take 2 vehicles, I would look, for example, a F250 or 350 Super Cab 4X4 long bed with the 7.3 gas engine and 4.30 locking axle. Go as fancy as you wish, but an XL with the STX and power group package or base XLT are very nice trucks. For you trailer weight, nothing wrong with the tried and true 6.2 Ford V8 especially if not towing in mountainous areas.

Order with the factory trailer brake controller, upgraded radio etc, and you can come in at around $52-55k. GM got rid of their bulletproof 6.0 gas engine for a new design with cylinder deactivation, which I'm not a fan of in HD applications. Keep it simple and reliable. Talk to a fleet manager at a bigger dealer as they should know the product better than the regular floor sales folks.

IMHO, Pickup trucks have gotten insane as a luxury-lifestyle vehicle. Guess if you're a ranch owner who works 12 hours a day out of the truck-as-a-office and can write off a $90k vehicle it makes sense (or are wealthy enough not to care).

This is coming from a former 1987 F250HD diesel owner who thought the XLT package with power(!) windows, cruise, AM/FM Cassette and cloth interior was fancy. I'm currently looking at a F350 for a truck camper when I retire soon, but with inventory problems and not much incentive for dealers to deal, will probably hold off till next year.

The old mechanical fuel injection diesels were bullet proof, but with all the very expensive fuel and emissions hardware on new diesel trucks, I would stay far away unless you need the ultra high-capacity towing/high yearly mileage to justify them.
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

snackdog wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:46 pm If you are leaning toward an F350 as a third vehicle just for towing, you may want to compare that cost to the cost of trading the trailer for a Class A, B or C motorhome. Since you are already bringing a second vehicle on your trips, you don't even need a toad.
The motorhome would also allow towing other recreational toys if that's applicable.
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

Carlton wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:05 pm The old mechanical fuel injection diesels were bullet proof, but with all the very expensive fuel and emissions hardware on new diesel trucks, I would stay far away unless you need the ultra high-capacity towing/high yearly mileage to justify them.
It seems like diesels are somewhat riding on the reputation earned by earlier generation models without all the complex and expensive-to-repair components they have today.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Sandtrap »

Carlton wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:05 pm From your post, since you take 2 vehicles, I would look, for example, a F250 or 350 Super Cab 4X4 long bed with the 7.3 gas engine and 4.30 locking axle. Go as fancy as you wish, but an XL with the STX and power group package or base XLT are very nice trucks. For you trailer weight, nothing wrong with the tried and true 6.2 Ford V8 especially if not towing in mountainous areas.

Order with the factory trailer brake controller, upgraded radio etc, and you can come in at around $52-55k. GM got rid of their bulletproof 6.0 gas engine for a new design with cylinder deactivation, which I'm not a fan of in HD applications. Keep it simple and reliable. Talk to a fleet manager at a bigger dealer as they should know the product better than the regular floor sales folks.

IMHO, Pickup trucks have gotten insane as a luxury-lifestyle vehicle. Guess if you're a ranch owner who works 12 hours a day out of the truck-as-a-office and can write off a $90k vehicle it makes sense (or are wealthy enough not to care).

This is coming from a former 1987 F250HD diesel owner who thought the XLT package with power(!) windows, cruise, AM/FM Cassette and cloth interior was fancy. I'm currently looking at a F350 for a truck camper when I retire soon, but with inventory problems and not much incentive for dealers to deal, will probably hold off till next year.

The old mechanical fuel injection diesels were bullet proof, but with all the very expensive fuel and emissions hardware on new diesel trucks, I would stay far away unless you need the ultra high-capacity towing/high yearly mileage to justify them.
This is really solid advice.

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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by 123 »

the journey wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:16 am ...Presently have an F150 and have been towing the camper that we purchased Spring of 2020 for our family of 6. Our camper is a 32 foot bumper pull and is 7400 dry...
Instead of replacing the F150 maybe a more modest camper could still accommodate 6.
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smitcat
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by smitcat »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 pm
Carlton wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:05 pm The old mechanical fuel injection diesels were bullet proof, but with all the very expensive fuel and emissions hardware on new diesel trucks, I would stay far away unless you need the ultra high-capacity towing/high yearly mileage to justify them.
It seems like diesels are somewhat riding on the reputation earned by earlier generation models without all the complex and expensive-to-repair components they have today.
Our older diesels would always be identified by onlookers - black smoke, black tailpipe, 'rattle' on startup, distinctive smell, etc.
Our newer diesels have none of those and much more power than the old ones, hard to tell it's a diesel most of the time and tailpipe perfectly clean after 10K miles.
Of course both gas and diesel engines have become much more complex and expensive to repair since the 'older' days.
tibbitts
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by tibbitts »

smitcat wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:42 am
tibbitts wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:11 pm
Carlton wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:05 pm The old mechanical fuel injection diesels were bullet proof, but with all the very expensive fuel and emissions hardware on new diesel trucks, I would stay far away unless you need the ultra high-capacity towing/high yearly mileage to justify them.
It seems like diesels are somewhat riding on the reputation earned by earlier generation models without all the complex and expensive-to-repair components they have today.
Our older diesels would always be identified by onlookers - black smoke, black tailpipe, 'rattle' on startup, distinctive smell, etc.
Our newer diesels have none of those and much more power than the old ones, hard to tell it's a diesel most of the time and tailpipe perfectly clean after 10K miles.
Of course both gas and diesel engines have become much more complex and expensive to repair since the 'older' days.
Repairs on both gas and diesel are definitely more expensive and complicated now, it just seems that diesels have retained more of the reputation for simplicity and economy than is applicable to the newer generation.
Teague
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Re: Tow vehicle

Post by Teague »

tev9876 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:21 pm Here is a Youtube video I stumbled across some time ago that shows what happens when you pull too much trailer with too little truck (and no WD/sway control).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMpuGpmM6-Q
Plenty of others out there if you do a search.

I've had a 30' TT for two years now that I pull with my eight year old Ram 1500 crew cab. The truck is rated at 10K towing and 1K tongue weight - I have the outdoorsman trim which for that year came with beefier rear shocks and light truck instead of passenger tires like on the rest of the 1/2 ton line so I figure that helps a bit. My camper is rated about 5500 pounds dry. I figure I am somewhere around 6500 with stuff in it. I do have a solid WD hitch with integrated sway control.

It pulls OK and it has never scared me, but I would not want to pull more with this truck. I can definitely feel it if my water tanks are full or there is too much weight in the truck bed. I stick to the right lane and 65 mph max. When I decide to get a new truck I may go for a 3/4 ton if I am still into camping. I keep getting that new truck itch but it is the worst time right now to buy any vehicle.

Friends of mine have a TT that is probably 40' and easily a few thousand pounds heavier than mine but tell me it pulls fine with their 1/2 ton and a Hensley hitch which looks interesting. https://hensleymfg.com/how-does-the-hensley-hitch-work/
As an aside I have the same Ram Outdoorsman setup as you do. I've found significant towing improvement from adding helper air bags, upgrading the rear anti-sway bar, and running those rear LT tires about 55-60 psi rather than the stock recommended 43 psi.
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