Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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alex_686
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by alex_686 »

esqu1re wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:32 pm I think it's better suited for a limited series though. The movie was 2.5 hours. They're only like 1/2 through the first book and there are like 6 books. That means at least one more movie to finish the series! Math!
I will mildly disagree.

Each book tells a stand alone store, more or less. Or at the very least each book has a definite finish. Reading the backstory helps in navigating the latter stories but it is not like some series where the story wanders over a dozen books. Or even 3.

Villeneuve has said he is interested in filming the first 3 books. He does not want this to become his career. Dune, the first book, is the longest and most complex. So maybe the only one deserved to be cut into 2 pieces. This kind of makes sense as they are clustered around the same people and time. So maybe 4 to 5 films top.

All of the other books, 3 or 20ish depending on how you count, take place with different people and in different times.

I don't think a mini-series would be the best choice. The books tend to be focused on a single person. In m y opinion mini-series do best in a broader universe tracking multiple people.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Lucky2Invest »

We loved it. Cinematography was unreal. It was a bit slow but I guess it has to be to introduce that storyline. I was upset to see they haven’t even “green lit” the 2nd one.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Tubes »

I said my piece at viewtopic.php?p=6288550#p6288550 . Overall, I like it. But it is not perfect.

As to "wooden" characters, I will say that is the times we live in. Lynch's version came out in a different time where there was a lot of color and goofiness in movies, even some serious movies (like "The Thing"). Lynch seemed to funnel that feeling into the Harkonnens, what with boils, pus, laughing levitation, and Sting's incredible physique.

Meanwhile, Villeneuve finds himself in the age of The Broody Teenager. (Hunger Games, etc.) This came through in this version. There is zero, and I mean ZERO humor in this movie. And pretty much close to zero optimism with the exception of some hoped for flash-forwards that won't resolve until the next part - maybe.

Still, I think it is worth a viewing, even if you don't care to pay attention to the complex plot and characters. The visuals are stunning, and Zimmer's score drips all over them like wonderful icing.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Valuethinker »

mindboggling wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:58 am The original Dune novel was one of the best books I'd ever read (I was about 20). Now that I am 68, I'm afraid to re-read it. It might destroy the memory of my first reading. To me, the sequel novel broke the spell of the first book and did nothing for me. I saw parts of the original Dune movie and it felt cheesy and cheaply done. I'm afraid to see the new movie. There is no way to capture the scope and atmosphere of the original book. I'd rather retain the memories of how great the first book was. I can still picture scenes from it even to this day.
The original Dune movie was made at a time when Special Effects was a primitive discipline compared to now.

(I should note that *some* films, particularly the ?Doug Trumble? ones *still* look very fresh and powerful: Silent Running, Close Encounters etc)

So the cheesiness was probably Dino De Laurentis confronting a film way over budget, and needing to fill in certain scenes. Also the "neo baroque" style of the film was probably appropriate (this is, more or less, the rise of Islam in 7th century, but in space) but looked camp (see also Flash Gordon from the same director).

The book? The first one is worth a read. Herbert was a US government biologist (his first big piece of work was on... sand dunes). He had spent years building up a reputation as a science fiction writer for the pulps etc. Flogged that novel to many publishers before someone finally took it on.

The intricate world building - both the environmental and the human-social - was magnificent. Ditto the baroque complexity of plotting - reminding me of Wars of the Roses in 15th century England.

Whether it still stacks up as a novel, I am not sure. It was (the first?) environmental SF novel (someone will point me to its antecedents, I am sure). Worthy for that reason.

I couldn't finish either of the next 2.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by danaht »

I enjoyed the movie. Thought it was much better than the 80's version. Only bad thing is that you will be waiting 2 years for each of the sequels - and I am not sure how many sequels they are planning to cover the entire story.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Valuethinker »

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:15 am I said my piece at viewtopic.php?p=6288550#p6288550 . Overall, I like it. But it is not perfect.

As to "wooden" characters, I will say that is the times we live in. Lynch's version came out in a different time where there was a lot of color and goofiness in movies, even some serious movies (like "The Thing"). Lynch seemed to funnel that feeling into the Harkonnens, what with boils, pus, laughing levitation, and Sting's incredible physique.
Yes re Technicolor. That's what movies looked like, back then. I think they look goofy, now, because our sensibilities have changed.

Lynch is in to body horror. The Harkonens (whose appearance in the Lynch Dune movie matches that in the book) are the way he chose to express that.

Lynch had a particular vision which is manifest in many of his movies. (I wouldn't necessarily have put John Carpenter's The Thing (I assume you don't mean the 1950s version!) in that category). Kyle Machlachlan was to David Lynch what Kurt Russell was to John Carpenter.
Meanwhile, Villeneuve finds himself in the age of The Broody Teenager. (Hunger Games, etc.) This came through in this version. There is zero, and I mean ZERO humor in this movie. And pretty much close to zero optimism with the exception of some hoped for flash-forwards that won't resolve until the next part - maybe.
That's consistent with the source text. It's not an optimistic book.

Mind neither Blade Runner 2049 nor Arrival are that optimistic, either.
Still, I think it is worth a viewing, even if you don't care to pay attention to the complex plot and characters. The visuals are stunning, and Zimmer's score drips all over them like wonderful icing.
Villeneuve does some amazing visuals. I didn't like Blade Runner 2049 that much compared to its predecessor, but it was a visually stunning film.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by mecht3ach »

I read all of the Frank Herbert books (*not the Brian Herbert ones*) in a big binge when I was in high school, and as a high schooler, was pretty blown away by them. I suspect a similar experience is true for many Dune fans. As an adult, they seem a bit trite to me, but still interesting world building, so I'm looking forward to watching the movie (waiting for a time when my current high schoolers can carve out the time to watch it as a family).

As a side note, if they do end up making sequels to the movie for the later books, I have no idea how they will translate the SERIOUS FREAKING ODDNESS of God Emperor of Dune to the screen.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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Valuethinker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:28 am
Lynch is in to body horror. The Harkonens (whose appearance in the Lynch Dune movie matches that in the book) are the way he chose to express that.

Lynch had a particular vision which is manifest in many of his movies. (I wouldn't necessarily have put John Carpenter's The Thing (I assume you don't mean the 1950s version!) in that category). Kyle Machlachlan was to David Lynch what Kurt Russell was to John Carpenter.
Ha ha, yes, the Kurt Russel film.

I'm actually a Lynch nut. I've seen all his movies except Inland Empire. I enjoyed rewatching the '84 film after watching this latest version. The 84 film has some good points to it despite its many flaws. And, it ends more optimistically than the book. I suspect this recent version will have a very dark sequel.

BTW, I can watch 84 and put the effects in the timeframe. Some were good, some were unfortunately a product of their time and budget. The body shields in the new version are crazy fantastic. The 84 version kind of remind me of the Dire Straits "Money For Nothing" music video (another Sting connection).
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Valuethinker »

manatee2005 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:59 pm It’s horrible. Looks good but empty.
Unfortunately that defines a lot of Hollywood product these days.

With the decline of the aftermarket (DVDs& video rentals) it is (pre Covid) all about the big box office in the early days. Films used to sit for weeks in cinemas whilst people read reviews and heard about them from their friends, building an audience.

To make money, a movie has to do well in international rentals. Generally that means that the story has to be simpler - complex character development or plot lines don't translate as well into the big international markets (Spanish or Chinese, I imagine). It has to meet certain censorship standards (political or adult themes) to even have a chance at the Chinese market, now the world's largest or 2nd largest after USA -- and the number of foreign films each year is restricted there by quota.

(Bollywood is world's largest cinema by ticket sales. But by dollar value, I don't think it is).

(these factors underlie the decline of the typical American mid-list film. For example the sort of Rom-Coms Nora Ephron specialised in writing. I read that if it weren't for Megan Ellison (daughter of Oracle billionaire Larry) a lot of these movies would just not get made).

With the high costs of film making plus the higher risk of not recovering those costs, studios are risk averse. Michael Bay (Transformers franchise) is the most bankable director in Hollywood, I believe I read. JJ Abrams might be another (Avengers. Star Wars?). Sharing common DNA (e.g. Marvel Comics Universe) which has instant recognition w the potential audience.

"Looks good but empty" is how I'd define a very large number of movies. Maybe it was always thus, but it seems the ones that beat that don't get made (or maybe I just don't catch them).
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Valuethinker »

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:36 am
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:28 am
Lynch is in to body horror. The Harkonens (whose appearance in the Lynch Dune movie matches that in the book) are the way he chose to express that.

Lynch had a particular vision which is manifest in many of his movies. (I wouldn't necessarily have put John Carpenter's The Thing (I assume you don't mean the 1950s version!) in that category). Kyle Machlachlan was to David Lynch what Kurt Russell was to John Carpenter.
Ha ha, yes, the Kurt Russel film.

I'm actually a Lynch nut. I've seen all his movies except Inland Empire. I enjoyed rewatching the '84 film after watching this latest version. The 84 film has some good points to it despite its many flaws. And, it ends more optimistically than the book. I suspect this recent version will have a very dark sequel.

BTW, I can watch 84 and put the effects in the timeframe. Some were good, some were unfortunately a product of their time and budget. The body shields in the new version are crazy fantastic. The 84 version kind of remind me of the Dire Straits "Money For Nothing" music video (another Sting connection).
Sequel.

Dune, Messiah [edited: someone suggested this was basically a spoiler - I am forgetting not *everyone* knows the story]

So no, not optimistic.

From what I understand, the Villeneuve film stops halfway through the first novel? Not much optimistic happening in the second half, from my memory.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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alex_686 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:30 am
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
This will never happen. He has publicly said over multiple years that he will not revisit this film. In large part because Lynch never edited the film.

His initial edit was 4 hours long. This is not uncommon for a first edit. However the film studio was getting nervous over the project so they took over editing. It kind of broke Lynch. From that point forward he always insisted on a "finial edit" clause in his contract.

He was not involved in the extended TV edit. In fact he yanked his name as director and writer as protest.
Fascinating. I consider myself a big David Lynch fan, and I didn't even realize that the first Dune movie was his. I recall not liking it, and I never wanted to try watching it again. Now it seems like I have to as a research project.

This new one is fine. There was a big danger with the lead actor being bad (because you're going to be stuck with him going forward), but all things considered Timothée Chalamet did an acceptable job. In fact I'd give the movie an A for acting/actors. Now, creative choices related to what gets presented and so forth is subject to debate. Overall at least a B.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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Valuethinker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:45 am
Sequel.
Yeah, I didn't want to spoil much. But since you summarized the book, I'll say that in the current movie, Paul sees this prophesy of a future of wars in his name. Lynch's version mostly blows that off. I think Villeneuve's version will explore it deeply and darkly.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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Dude2 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:47 am
alex_686 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:30 am
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
This will never happen. He has publicly said over multiple years that he will not revisit this film. In large part because Lynch never edited the film.

His initial edit was 4 hours long. This is not uncommon for a first edit. However the film studio was getting nervous over the project so they took over editing. It kind of broke Lynch. From that point forward he always insisted on a "finial edit" clause in his contract.

He was not involved in the extended TV edit. In fact he yanked his name as director and writer as protest.
Fascinating. I consider myself a big David Lynch fan, and I didn't even realize that the first Dune movie was his. I recall not liking it, and I never wanted to try watching it again. Now it seems like I have to as a research project.

This new one is fine. There was a big danger with the lead actor being bad (because you're going to be stuck with him going forward), but all things considered Timothée Chalamet did an acceptable job. In fact I'd give the movie an A for acting/actors. Now, creative choices related to what gets presented and so forth is subject to debate. Overall at least a B.
Yep, he more or less disowns it. He learned about the power of final cut. And yes, the TV edit was credited to Alan Smithee, the infamous director of numerous films disowned by their real directors.

Upon rewatch, you will know this is a Lynch film when you see the Harkonnen slaves with their ears cut off. Those ears apparently ended up in his next film, "Blue Velvet."
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by nigel_ht »

mindboggling wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:58 am The original Dune novel was one of the best books I'd ever read (I was about 20). Now that I am 68, I'm afraid to re-read it. It might destroy the memory of my first reading.
There are books I re-read over the course of my life that I still enjoy reading because they grew with me (or really, vice versa) but jumping back in time like hasn't turned out very well for me…it was mostly just “meh” and the occasional “wow, that didn’t age well”…

Some things are better as memories than reality and there are plenty of new memories to make…
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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Dude2 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:47 am Fascinating. I consider myself a big David Lynch fan, and I didn't even realize that the first Dune movie was his. I recall not liking it, and I never wanted to try watching it again. Now it seems like I have to as a research project.
Consider that he turned down directing “The Return of the Jedi” for Dune.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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nigel_ht wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:06 am
mindboggling wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:58 am The original Dune novel was one of the best books I'd ever read (I was about 20). Now that I am 68, I'm afraid to re-read it. It might destroy the memory of my first reading.
There are books I re-read over the course of my life that I still enjoy reading because they grew with me (or really, vice versa) but jumping back in time like hasn't turned out very well for me…it was mostly just “meh” and the occasional “wow, that didn’t age well”…

Some things are better as memories than reality and there are plenty of new memories to make…
Try reading “The Road to Dune”, a collection of Herbert’s work. It includes a first draft of “Dune”, which is one of the most conventional sci-fi stores that I have ever read.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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"The original Dune novel was one of the best books I'd ever read (I was about 20). Now that I am 68, I'm afraid to re-read it. "

Do it, it's every bit as good as you remember. I'm 71. :) Pretty pictures painted with computers will never replace the slow development of characters and landscapes brought to life with imagination.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by stimulacra »

Enjoyed it immensely. Great visuals, think they doled out the world building and exposition in the right doses for both fans of the books and novices to the franchise. It's interesting that they didn't show some very important characters in the first half but figured they were saving their casting dollars on what would otherwise be glorified cameo roles.

Where they ended the movie roughly makes sense; the time that elapses in the novel and the time it'll take to make Part II will allow the two younger leads to age naturally. The full novel deserves to be a 5 hour adaptation.

I want to see Part II get made so will watch it again in the theaters and encourage others to do so as well. Enders Game is an example of a failed launch.

I would rather see Denis Villeneuve head up a cinematic sci-fi franchise than JJ Abrams…

With Foundation also playing on Apple TV+, I think it's a golden age of classic sci-fi adaptations.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Jags4186 »

It was fine. I enjoyed it. Wife didn’t and I had to pause and explain much of it to her. It was slow paced and 30 minutes too long. Took 3hrs to get through. Had to watch with subtitles.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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alex_686 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:30 am
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
This will never happen. He has publicly said over multiple years that he will not revisit this film. In large part because Lynch never edited the film.

His initial edit was 4 hours long. This is not uncommon for a first edit. However the film studio was getting nervous over the project so they took over editing. It kind of broke Lynch. From that point forward he always insisted on a "finial edit" clause in his contract.

He was not involved in the extended TV edit. In fact he yanked his name as director and writer as protest.
Yes, I have Google too. I'm fully aware of him removing his name from the release. That doesn't change my position. I liked the old extended version better than this new commercial abomination. The old Dune was a complete story. This new one follows the all too common goal of studios trying to make money by multiple sequels. I'm glad I didn't pay directly to see it. I'll have to break out my old HBO vhs copy of the old Dune extended version. That or it must be streaming somewhere.
Last edited by Californiastate on Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Elsebet »

We saw it in the theater and enjoyed it and will watch it again on HBO Max at home. I plan to read the books also since I have not done so yet.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by loghound »

I had a hard time with the books (never finished the series) and the movie done a number of years ago left me numb.

I really enjoyed this version, I finally sort of getting why people are so fanatical about the series...
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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stimulacra wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:43 am I would rather see Denis Villeneuve head up a cinematic sci-fi franchise than JJ Abrams…
I think I agree with you. I had to smile when Villeneuve used a massive lens flare to very good effect in this movie. Just one time. JJ has been criticized for being obsessed with them. I wonder if Villeneuve was poking the bear a bit. :happy
Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:53 am I'll have to break out my old HBO vhs copy of the old Dune extended version. That or it must be streaming somewhere.
HBOMax streams the conventional Lynch version. Not sure if any other streamer is streaming the extended cut.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by SgwayMontrose »

nigel_ht wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:06 am
mindboggling wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:58 am The original Dune novel was one of the best books I'd ever read (I was about 20). Now that I am 68, I'm afraid to re-read it. It might destroy the memory of my first reading.
There are books I re-read over the course of my life that I still enjoy reading because they grew with me (or really, vice versa) but jumping back in time like hasn't turned out very well for me…it was mostly just “meh” and the occasional “wow, that didn’t age well”…

Some things are better as memories than reality and there are plenty of new memories to make…
Dune the novel is not one of those things. I re read it once a decade or so and it remains excellent.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by lostdog »

I'm going to see it again at the theatre in a few hours with my friends. :beer
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No third-stage Guild Navigators in this version? :(
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

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CardinalRule wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:05 pm No third-stage Guild Navigators in this version? :(
What happened to the hairy eyebrow guy? That was my DW's favorite line, "We're finding these sabotage devices much too easily."
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by SgwayMontrose »

Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:53 am
alex_686 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:30 am
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
This will never happen. He has publicly said over multiple years that he will not revisit this film. In large part because Lynch never edited the film.

His initial edit was 4 hours long. This is not uncommon for a first edit. However the film studio was getting nervous over the project so they took over editing. It kind of broke Lynch. From that point forward he always insisted on a "finial edit" clause in his contract.

He was not involved in the extended TV edit. In fact he yanked his name as director and writer as protest.

Yes, I have Google too. I'm fully aware of him removing his name from the release. That doesn't change my position. I liked the old extended version better than this new commercial abomination. The old Dune was a complete story. This new one follows the all too common goal of studios trying to make money by multiple sequels. I'm glad I didn't pay directly to see it. I'll have to break out my old HBO vhs copy of the old Dune extended version. That or it must be streaming somewhere.
The old Dune was a chopped up mess, it was far from a complete story. Had it been made into two parts from the benign perhaps it wouldn’t have been the cringey debacle that it was. The fact that you have and can watch a VHS copy is telling. Were you privy to a pre production meeting where you heard talk of making multiple sequels solely to try and make money? Or is it multiple movies to tell a more complete story and then sequel movies because there were SEQUEL BOOKS?

The movie is well worth the watch having read the books. I have no idea how anyone who has not read the books would enjoy the movie though. The written material is so dense I don’t see how the screen translation can convey all of the nuance. The bene gesserit for example has a fantastically deep history that will never be glimpsed at in a movie. The movie tix should come with Cliffs Notes. That’s why, despite what a poster said above, Dune deserves a series. There’d be time and opportunity to delve into the richness of the universe.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Californiastate »

SgwayMontrose wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:13 pm
Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:53 am
alex_686 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:30 am
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
This will never happen. He has publicly said over multiple years that he will not revisit this film. In large part because Lynch never edited the film.

His initial edit was 4 hours long. This is not uncommon for a first edit. However the film studio was getting nervous over the project so they took over editing. It kind of broke Lynch. From that point forward he always insisted on a "finial edit" clause in his contract.

He was not involved in the extended TV edit. In fact he yanked his name as director and writer as protest.

Yes, I have Google too. I'm fully aware of him removing his name from the release. That doesn't change my position. I liked the old extended version better than this new commercial abomination. The old Dune was a complete story. This new one follows the all too common goal of studios trying to make money by multiple sequels. I'm glad I didn't pay directly to see it. I'll have to break out my old HBO vhs copy of the old Dune extended version. That or it must be streaming somewhere.
The old Dune was a chopped up mess, it was far from a complete story. Had it been made into two parts from the benign perhaps it wouldn’t have been the cringey debacle that it was. The fact that you have and can watch a VHS copy is telling. Were you privy to a pre production meeting where you heard talk of making multiple sequels solely to try and make money? Or is it multiple movies to tell a more complete story and then sequel movies because there were SEQUEL BOOKS?

The movie is well worth the watch having read the books. I have no idea how anyone who has not read the books would enjoy the movie though. The written material is so dense I don’t see how the screen translation can convey all of the nuance. The bene gesserit for example has a fantastically deep history that will never be glimpsed at in a movie. The movie tix should come with Cliffs Notes. That’s why, despite what a poster said above, Dune deserves a series. There’d be time and opportunity to delve into the richness of the universe.
That's the funny thing about a non-communist society. People can have their own public opinions. Have a good day.
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Tubes
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Tubes »

I never read the books. I enjoyed both movies. I think seeing the first movie and getting "cliff notes" from friends helped me appreciate the second movie.

Just because I don't know all the nuances and incredible backstories of the "houses" and other societies doesn't mean I can't enjoy the visuals and general story. On reddit I keep seeing that theme: "Oh, this must be so confusing to you. You can't possibly appreciate this because the movies can't convey it."

Why? For example: I'm missing something some huge backstory about how in the future you can choose the gender of a child. Doesn't matter that I don't know the details why. It is clear from the movie that one can. That's good enough for me.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by SgwayMontrose »

Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:17 pm
That's the funny thing about a non-communist society. People can have their own public opinions. Have a good day.
What’s funny about that? I think it’s fantastic! And their own private opinions too.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by SgwayMontrose »

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:30 pm I never read the books. I enjoyed both movies. I think seeing the first movie and getting "cliff notes" from friends helped me appreciate the second movie.

Just because I don't know all the nuances and incredible backstories of the "houses" and other societies doesn't mean I can't enjoy the visuals and general story. On reddit I keep seeing that theme: "Oh, this must be so confusing to you. You can't possibly appreciate this because the movies can't convey it."

Why? For example: I'm missing something some huge backstory about how in the future you can choose the gender of a child. Doesn't matter that I don't know the details why. It is clear from the movie that one can. That's good enough for me.
I simply meant that I enjoyed the movie and that I could not speak for someone who was unfamiliar with the source material. It’s great that you enjoyed the movie, both movies even. Appreciate the movies however you are able! Though it isn’t correct to say that “in the future you can choose the gender of the child” and if you knew the details why, then you would know why, and it would indeed matter. But good enough for you is good enough for you and that is certainly good enough for me as well. I will also buy a ticket to see it in the theater as I watched it on HBOmax, gotta support the team.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by BH_RedRan »

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path."
Useful for a successful buy-and-hold strategy.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by illumination »

For the most part I liked it. I can definitely see people not caring for it though. I'd give it a B+, I definitely want to see the follow ups.

I thought the art direction, special effects, cinematography, sets, etc. were amazing. Probably better than any science fiction movie I can remember. Acting was also great.

Not having read the books, I did a little Cliff's Notes research to understand all what was going on with some of the jockeying politics. I also didn't understand some aspects like why interstellar space travelers used medieval swords for combat, it just sort of hints at the reasoning in the movie. I can see a viewer being turned when they feel in the dark about many things going on.

This really seems like a series that needs a Game of Thrones type treatment of like 30 hours with an essentially unlimited budget. But my guess is that's just not feasible.

If I was a film maker, I probably wouldn't want to go near something like this. Just too difficult to really explain what is going on in a movie format , has a narrow audience, and a studio can be quick to cut your legs out as soon as it doesn't hit their expectations. David Lynch found out the hard way.
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Tubes
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Tubes »

SgwayMontrose wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:48 pm
Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:30 pm I never read the books. I enjoyed both movies. I think seeing the first movie and getting "cliff notes" from friends helped me appreciate the second movie.

Just because I don't know all the nuances and incredible backstories of the "houses" and other societies doesn't mean I can't enjoy the visuals and general story. On reddit I keep seeing that theme: "Oh, this must be so confusing to you. You can't possibly appreciate this because the movies can't convey it."

Why? For example: I'm missing something some huge backstory about how in the future you can choose the gender of a child. Doesn't matter that I don't know the details why. It is clear from the movie that one can. That's good enough for me.
I simply meant that I enjoyed the movie and that I could not speak for someone who was unfamiliar with the source material. It’s great that you enjoyed the movie, both movies even. Appreciate the movies however you are able! Though it isn’t correct to say that “in the future you can choose the gender of the child” and if you knew the details why, then you would know why, and it would indeed matter. But good enough for you is good enough for you and that is certainly good enough for me as well. I will also buy a ticket to see it in the theater as I watched it on HBOmax, gotta support the team.
It's all cool. I will join you in incrementing the counter by watching again. Looking forward to the possible sequel.

BTW: I think a good movie based on thick books can cater to multiple audiences. I don't know what it was about Lord of the Rings, but I never got into the movie. I didn't read the book and I felt punished.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Tubes »

illumination wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:06 pm David Lynch found out the hard way.
Yes. Lynch focused on his own stories after this*. And because there are no books, only the finished films or shows, it makes us fans crazy. We add all kinds of imagined backstories and reasoning. It is a lot of fun. Lynch never gives any clues.

* - Exception: "The Straight Story" was not written by Lynch, but by his trusted associate. It is also G-rated! If you like good cinematography, it is worth a look especially since it isn't sweetened with CGI. Just good, raw visuals.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by MrBobcat »

I've been looking forward to this movie since I saw the trailer last year. Huge Dune fan, first read the books in Jr High and have re-read the original 6 books several times. The first movie had its flaws which is understandable given the scope of the book and the movie technology available at the time. I still remember being given a term/definition list at the first movie, lol.

As far as the second film, beautifully filmed, I really enjoyed it, a few shortcomings, but still very good. For some reason I live in a vacuum and didn't realize it was only half the book, as the movie went on the dread built that there is no way they're going to finish it in the time left. Anywho I'm going to be mightily disappointed if they don't finish it.

I didn't see it in a theater, it's not here yet, so I watched it on HBOMax on my big TV and surround sound, it didn't disappoint.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Tamarind »

I enjoyed the book and reread it before seeing the movie. This film captures many of the aspects of the book that previous adaptations neglected: the role of the emperor in great house politics, the military feudal social structure, anti-colonialism, the power of the Bene Gesserit. I felt like I was present in the setting of the book. Little details like background dialogue and the use of battle language are present. Like the book, there's very little exposition and you are dropped into the world.

The film does drag out at times, just like the book. The film covers the first book up through right before Paul and Jessica arrive at Seitch Tabr, so most of the larger plot is yet to come when the credits roll.

I'd recommend seeing it in theaters if you liked the book, or if you like clifi or other science fiction with a social lens. If you are looking for a sandworm action romp, skip it.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Coburn »

almostretired1965 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:02 pm Dune is one of my favorite books of all time. I rarely reread fiction and I have read it three times.
I've read Dune twice, all the rest of the Dune books (including the Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson material) just once.

I rarely do rereads too. The Night Land by William Hope Hodgson and a couple of novels by Wilkie Collins being the only other literary repeats for me.

Watching this and then waiting for the sequel would take away some of the enjoyment for me...so I’ll wait till the sequel drops.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by yosh99 »

cdc wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:24 pm Meh. It’s half a movie.
I agree. Half a movie, and twice as long as it needed to be.
Last edited by yosh99 on Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by mindboggling »

nigel_ht wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:06 am
mindboggling wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:58 am The original Dune novel was one of the best books I'd ever read (I was about 20). Now that I am 68, I'm afraid to re-read it. It might destroy the memory of my first reading.
There are books I re-read over the course of my life that I still enjoy reading because they grew with me (or really, vice versa) but jumping back in time like hasn't turned out very well for me…it was mostly just “meh” and the occasional “wow, that didn’t age well”…

Some things are better as memories than reality and there are plenty of new memories to make…
I read The Lord of the Rings in my teens and re-read it within the last year or two. It still held up.
Also, The Gormenghast Trilogy by Mervlyn Peake, read in my teens, still held up for me many years later.
Naked Lunch by Burroughs reads as a bit dated these days although some scenes are still compelling.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by cashboy »

thoroughly enjoyed it.

the film as a 'film'
(acting, directing, cinematography, special effects, musical score, etc.)
is very well done.

the film as a 'story'
is as well done as it can be
given the constraints of movie duration and the depth of the material. splitting it across two movies was a wise decision.

i read dune many years ago, so i was familiar with the story and some of the facts that were not present in the movie - as such, i enjoyed the movie. but, i also understand that if one was not familiar with the book then it might not be as enjoyable.

for me, the old film version was disappointing - compared to the book and as a movie.

this new version is much closer to the book and beautifully presented.

:thumbsup :thumbsup
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by shess »

I discovered Dune around the 8th grade, and while I'm not going to claim that it changed my life like I learned things from it or modelled my life on it, it did change my life in terms of realizing that you could be intellectual (even faux intellectual) and everything didn't have to be at the level of romance novels and sports scores that everyone around me spent their time on. I really loved the six books written by Frank Herbert (the son's books I will not speak of), and I own a lot of his other books (not all of which managed to be that good ...).

Also, I really really enjoyed Bladerunner 2049. I liked Arrival, too, but I think in that case I enjoyed the underlying story and felt like the movie was a strong interpretation which didn't detract.

So, all of that setup, I saw Dune in the theater yesterday, and it was ... adequate. It didn't completely fail, it touched all the bases, but I really felt let down in the cinematics. A lot of the grand set pieces felt visually noisy to me, I mean at the pixel level not the subject level, like they were rendered for television rather than the big screen and then upscaled or something. Like the final worm reveal scene almost made me laugh, it just looked so poorly done. [I am considering rewatching in a different theater, because I felt the CG was such a letdown that I kind of wonder if there was something else going on, like some weird technical issue.] There were FAR TOO MANY SLOW MOTION SCENES. I get it, it's attempting to add gravity, but it became like JJ Abrams' lens flare, too much is just too much. Sometimes there was too much dwell time on fanservice scenes which didn't really move things along.

My biggest concern going in was that Paul and Chani and Jessica would lack fierceness. I don't mean strength, really, I mean that people make an assumption about them, and then push a little too far based on that assumption, and get set back on their asses in a surprising way. This really bothered me about the Frodo in LOTR, they kept playing him as in agony and oppressed and the like, and the hobbits barely got up to stoic, and they never showed the kind of strength or fierceness which would surprise Gandalf. And I think Dune didn't quite disappoint me on this front, and yet didn't quite set my concerns to rest.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Tubes »

shess wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:22 pm So, all of that setup, I saw Dune in the theater yesterday, and it was ... adequate. It didn't completely fail, it touched all the bases, but I really felt let down in the cinematics. A lot of the grand set pieces felt visually noisy to me, I mean at the pixel level not the subject level, like they were rendered for television rather than the big screen and then upscaled or something. Like the final worm reveal scene almost made me laugh, it just looked so poorly done. [I am considering rewatching in a different theater, because I felt the CG was such a letdown that I kind of wonder if there was something else going on, like some weird technical issue.]
Wow, that is so interesting. On my 50" plasma, they look GREAT. I haven't heard of people complaining who saw it in the theater, especially the IMAX views. You could have a bum projector/projectionist. Things can go wrong.

The Lynch version actually had decent worms because they were mechanical miniatures. These are another level up. I was not laughing.
shess wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:22 pm There were FAR TOO MANY SLOW MOTION SCENES. I get it, it's attempting to add gravity, but it became like JJ Abrams' lens flare, too much is just too much. Sometimes there was too much dwell time on fanservice scenes which didn't really move things along
I agree with this. I noticed the SLOOOW motion especially on second viewing. He did it one or two many times.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by student »

Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
At least this movie implies that there will be a sequel when they say Part I (or something like that) at the beginning.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Californiastate »

student wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:50 pm
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
At least this movie implies that there will be a sequel when they say Part I (or something like that) at the beginning.
The two other versions were complete. They are hoping for their own Star Wars franchise instead of just making a good movie better.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Artful Dodger »

This is interesting. I haven’t seen it yet, but plan to, probably via HBO Max, which we already have.

I’ve been a long time fan of the original novel and read it two or three times since I came upon it in 69 or 70. I just finished listening to the audiobook version which won the 2008 Audie Award for best sci-fi production. I actually own the original Analog magazines where the novel was serialized in the mid 60s. They broke it into two parts that came out roughly a year apart, Dune World (ending with Paul and Jessica’s escape) and the longer Prophet of Dune finishing the book. Some amazing artwork by John Schoenherr.

I’m tempted to continue with the audio book of Dune Messiah but haven’t yet. Too many interesting books to read, and I don’t read as much sci-fi as I used to.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Valuethinker »

Artful Dodger wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:41 pm This is interesting. I haven’t seen it yet, but plan to, probably via HBO Max, which we already have.

I’ve been a long time fan of the original novel and read it two or three times since I came upon it in 69 or 70. I just finished listening to the audiobook version which won the 2008 Audie Award for best sci-fi production. I actually own the original Analog magazines where the novel was serialized in the mid 60s. They broke it into two parts that came out roughly a year apart, Dune World (ending with Paul and Jessica’s escape) and the longer Prophet of Dune finishing the book. Some amazing artwork by John Schoenherr.
Wow. Hats off to you. There was a moment when the entire Analog from (? 1960-1980?) was available in Dvd (or Kindle) format, I think, but long since pulled (I bet a couple of stiffly worded copyright lawyer letters finished it).

When Stanley S Schmidt (I think?) was editor of Analog it did some very good things. And the Frank Kelly Freas covers.

Covid-19 means I will not get back to it before my mother's house is cleared, but I did have the serial of Poul Anderson People of the Wind. Probably the first SF novel I read in serialised form *first*.
I’m tempted to continue with the audio book of Dune Messiah but haven’t yet. Too many interesting books to read, and I don’t read as much sci-fi as I used to.
I don't remember it as being worth the read. But that was over 30 years ago, now.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by student »

Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:04 pm
student wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:50 pm
Californiastate wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:41 pm I watched it on HBO Max. I didn't like it compared to the older extended version. I was offended when they cut it off to setup a sequel. I personnally would like David Lynch to edit a 3rd version of his movie. Supposedly he shot a lot of footage. Too many movies today leave you to believe that a sequel is possible in the last act.
At least this movie implies that there will be a sequel when they say Part I (or something like that) at the beginning.
The two other versions were complete. They are hoping for their own Star Wars franchise instead of just making a good movie better.
Yes. I am old. I watched the other two versions. I was kind of disappointed when I saw Part 1 in the title...
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Re: Seen new Dune Movie? Your opinion??

Post by Valuethinker »

Tubes wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:49 am
Valuethinker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:45 am
Sequel.
Yeah, I didn't want to spoil much. But since you summarized the book, I'll say that in the current movie, ... I think Villeneuve's version will explore it deeply and darkly.
Sorry. I edited mine - I see your point about spoilers.
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