Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

Title says it all. Please understand that I recognize that not all information pertaining to this topic will be available, and I will have to make a best decision with all available info. Also, just to get ahead of any "YOLA, stop overthinking it" criticism, I participate in a number of mildly to moderately risky activities (when was the last time you deadlifted 315lbs? 8-) ), but only after understanding, mitigating, and then accepting the risks.

Terrible time to buy a new car, I'm really just getting my plan together for when things calm down. Driving a 2005 Nissan Frontier with 180k miles, catalytic converter is slowing dying as a result of engine burning oil (qt/4k miles). Budget is preferably under 30k. Can afford more but not a fan of splurging on cars.

So fit (I'm tall, prefer 40" headroom) and reliability were my top metrics, but as I started looking into safety I became interested in this aspect. Overall, I have realized that since I can afford a less reliable (Subaru) car in a long-term maintenance sense, that might be the best move if safety is significantly better. The main motivation would be to avoid long term chronic pain or disability. One stat I found stated that 2M people sustained chronic injuries in the US annually (couldn't find the original source).

But, the the data are not straightforward... I'll explain.

For instance, both the Subaru Outback and the Toyota RAV4 have about 40" of headroom. Both are rated "good" for crashworthiness by IIHS https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/su ... wagon/2022). They both have ESC, and a variety of other new electronic features. However, when you look at the empirical data also from IIHS, it seems to be a slam dunk for Subaru on safety (BTW these data are adjusted for age and gender):

Source: https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-dea ... -and-model
2015-2017 Outback: 3 deaths (confidence limits 0-6)
2017 RAV4 2WD: 28 deaths (0-59)
2017 RAV4 4WD: 10 deaths (0-30)

However, the Subaru will skew towards a different demographic than the RAV4 (more affluent/educated than average?), whose tendencies might be more cautious on the road (https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru- ... ly-buys-it). But on the other hand, I sort of thought of Toyota as being a top pick for the affluent and educated as well. This aspect one is tough to quantify and IIHS can't adjust for it. But frankly I find it unlikely that this consideration would make a three to tenfold difference in fatalities! So this makes me think the IIHS data support the assertion that the crash cage is just safer on the Subaru.

But as I look at the 2WD vs 4WD RAV4 (which is really AWD)... the IIHS stats seem wonky. For instance, I think it's fairly well known that AWD has been oversold as a "safety" feature. The primary benefit of AWD appears to be not getting stuck at low speeds (boat ramp, snow, etc.) So why does the AWD RAV4 have 1/3 the fatalities? Could this be additional selection for affluent and thus safer drivers who "know" the AWD vehicle will keep them safe, but actualize additional safety only because they're safer drivers in that AWD vehicle?

To add another piece of evidence to the previous paragraph... compare the same model year trucks on the IIHS site, 2wd vs 4wd models. Most 4WD are part-time - you have to switch it into 4WD with a button, and it's not rated for normal driving speeds, you have to switch back to 2WD after you've negotiated the boat ramp, snow, etc. Well, the 4WD models also generally show much lower fatality rates... but I don't think people with the 2WD models are dying on the boat ramp, I think the 4WD models are just selecting for a more affluent demographic who "just have" to have 4WD for safety, or else have those specialized needs.

EDIT: Another factor that is almost impossible to consider is rural vs urban use, with rural being more dangerous due to greater use of 2-lane highways. I think the Subaru leans urban/suburban but I don't even know how to get data on that.

In conclusion, it would appear that some combination of demographics and actual safety performance are contributing to Subaru's numbers... I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks, and any other data sources you all might know of! Ultimately I'm just trying to tease out which vehicle is actually safer, versus which one benefits from the safer demographic of driver. Also I understand that IIHS is reverse-looking and that redesigns have occurred since 2017.
Last edited by sippyCUP on Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
whodidntante
Posts: 13114
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by whodidntante »

Just my opinion. Crash test results ignore the physics of real-world collisions. Unless you actually hit an immovable object, f=m*a will come into play. So prefer something roughly the mass of a passenger bus. The logo on the front isn't going to make much difference. Of course, huge mass comes with its own downsides, but the safety aspect for the occupants is pretty hard to dismiss.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

whodidntante wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:06 am Just my opinion. Crash test results ignore the physics of real-world collisions.
.

Yeah I mean I could buy a F350 King Cab dualie with fleck... I won't rule it out entirely, I'm just beginning this journey. Some people in my life would think it's pretty awesome. :wink:

EDIT: Lemmie get my aspirational truck language correct... Super Duty King Ranch with all the fixin's
squirm
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by squirm »

So what is the question? How is this actionable?
User avatar
Kagord
Posts: 1676
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:28 pm
Location: Peaksville, Ohio

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Kagord »

Also, on auto safety, and speaking about statistics that probably don't matter....everybody has their own risk profile, but just saying, you are more likely to expire in a car accident driving to get a Powerball lottery ticket, than winning the Powerball.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

squirm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:24 am So what is the question? How is this actionable?
So I sneakily made an edit:
Ultimately I'm just trying to tease out which vehicle is actually safer, versus which one benefits from the safer demographic of driver.
Understanding that depending on available datasets, 100% accuracy is not possible. How is it actionable... any information helps me and others understand which auto is the best buy for safety, and how to interpret available data.
Last edited by sippyCUP on Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
bob60014
Posts: 3768
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:59 pm
Location: The Land Beyond ORD

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by bob60014 »

Rav 4 sales are more than double the Subarus. I'm curious, would the crash numbers take that into consideration?
phxjcc
Posts: 1329
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:47 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by phxjcc »

The three basic elements that make up a use case are actors, the system and the goal. Other additional elements to consider when writing a use case include: Stakeholders, or anybody with an interest or investment in how the system performs.

Do this, then present the completed use case for recommendation.

Towing a 57 foot / 37,500 pound 5th wheel?
First Responder commuting for 3rd shift work in Fargo?
Newly minted Freshman driving to school in SoCal?
DWOB Physician moving to Southern Sudan?
Weekend warrior needing bike/kayak hauler in the U.P.?
Politician looking for virtue signaling in NorCal?

Also, you want guarantees? There are NONE.
Zero, zilch.

I agree with the f=m*a comment to which you were so denigratingly dismissive.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

phxjcc wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:01 am The three basic elements that make up a use case are actors, the system and the goal. Other additional elements to consider when writing a use case include: Stakeholders, or anybody with an interest or investment in how the system performs.

Do this, then present the completed use case for recommendation.

Towing a 57 foot / 37,500 pound 5th wheel?
First Responder commuting for 3rd shift work in Fargo?
Newly minted Freshman driving to school in SoCal?
DWOB Physician moving to Southern Sudan?
Weekend warrior needing bike/kayak hauler in the U.P.?
Politician looking for virtue signaling in NorCal?

Also, you want guarantees? There are NONE.
Zero, zilch.

I agree with the f=m*a comment to which you were so denigratingly dismissive.
Hey phxjcc, I see what you're saying about use cases & agree. I also recognize that there's no guarantees, and that life is a series of tradeoffs. I just like to understand the available data regarding those tradeoffs before I make a decision. I'm very familiar with f=m*a, but I'm not sure how much of the safety performance variability it explains. Certainly it explains some of the variability, but not all (though many will state it explains the vast majority), as the safety envelope/cage also makes up part of the variability, as well as driver performance.

For me, this is really a dispassionate decision, and I just want to understand other's perspectives & available data. I actually have not ruled out buying a much larger/heavier vehicle (seriously), but I'm still thinking on it. If I go that direction, I would like my pivot to be justified by some data that I understand.
Last edited by sippyCUP on Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

bob60014 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:49 am Rav 4 sales are more than double the Subarus. I'm curious, would the crash numbers take that into consideration?
Yes, the presented data are normalized by million year vehicle miles, e.g. 3 deaths per million vehicle year miles. For lower denominators, the confidence interval is larger. I should have mentioned that upfront, my bad.
Doctor Rhythm
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:55 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Doctor Rhythm »

Well, your post distracted me towards a deep dive into the data. Here’s a more comprehensive article from the IIHS on fatal accident rates by model:

https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocum ... t/pdf/55/2

I have no expertise in car safety, but I do interpret statistics as a part of my work. So here’s a couple of things that might help you to think about them:

1. The confidence intervals are quite wide around the point estimate and overlap. This usually means the difference is not statistically significant and could be explained by chance.

2. The “exposure” figures are a little puzzling. The are twice as many vehicle-years of data for the Outback, despite the fact that the RAV4 has 2-3 times the sales figures. Maybe just due to how data was pooled, but it makes me wonder if some confounder could have been introduced.

3. It’s often more helpful to make comparisons based on “number needed to harm” rather than relative risks. So for the numbers you provided, if we take them at face value:
142,876 RAV4’s (4WD) need to be driven instead of an Outback to result in one extra death per year (7 excess deaths per 1M vehicle years). On a personal level, it means one would need to drive an Outback instead of a RAV4 for an average of 142,876 years to prevent one death.


Btw: the stat is deaths per 1M registered vehicle years (doesn’t look at miles driven).
User avatar
illumination
Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:13 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by illumination »

Years ago when there was a scare about popular SUV's "rolling over" , I remember reading an article where the vehicle that actually had the most rollovers at the time was the Chevrolet Corvette. Probably one of the most "stable" vehicles you could buy at the time. The article illustrating how important driver safety was to the equation.

So much of safety data when it comes to stats is the driver itself, and a certain type of driver is attracted to a Subaru station wagon. So it's not surprising it has really great crash/fatality stats. I'm sure minivans also score sky high. I personally wouldn't read much into those kinds of statistics to make a lot of assumptions about the vehicle itself.

I think both are likely a tie in terms of safety in a wreck, the thing I would look for are accident avoidance features like lane change warning.
MarkBarb
Posts: 908
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by MarkBarb »

The website InformedForLife.org has a good collection of safety data and ratings on vehicles. Neither the RAV4 nor the Outback look particularly impressive.
CurlyDave
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by CurlyDave »

sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:49 am
bob60014 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:49 am Rav 4 sales are more than double the Subarus. I'm curious, would the crash numbers take that into consideration?
Yes, the presented data are normalized by million year vehicle miles, e.g. 3 deaths per million vehicle year miles. For lower denominators, the confidence interval is larger. I should have mentioned that upfront, my bad.
Our family owns both a 2017 Subaru Outback (me) and a 2021 Toyota Highlander Hybrid (DW). Both have the highest trim levels.

IMHO the safety features (and driver assist) on the Subaru are better than those on the Toyota. Much better collision avoidance, although the Highlander is at least in the same league, which was not the case in 2017. Parking assist and visualization of car's position and trajectory in tight places are better on the Toyota, although I have not looked at any Subarus since 2017 so that might be much better now than on mine.

I think that better higher speed collision avoidance will lead to fewer deaths. Very few people are killed or injured in parking mishaps.
Answering a question is easy -- asking the right question is the hard part.
User avatar
firebirdparts
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:21 pm
Location: Southern Appalachia

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by firebirdparts »

That's a great question, and I've never seen that database before. Really interesting.

I think, though, it's really just proven to be a means for your personal prejudices to run wild. I don't believe any of the explanations offered. They don't fit my personal prejudices. I find that whole subject of people's explanations of "those other people" kind of fascinating.
I just can't help it. Regardless of what other people say or believe, I did come away from that database thinking 4wd seems to be making a difference.

If you are trying to pick between two cars based on safety, then sure, the data are hugely different, pick that one. You don't really need to figure out why unless you just want to.
This time is the same
squirm
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by squirm »

sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:49 am
squirm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:24 am So what is the question? How is this actionable?
So I sneakily made an edit:
Ultimately I'm just trying to tease out which vehicle is actually safer, versus which one benefits from the safer demographic of driver.
Understanding that depending on available datasets, 100% accuracy is not possible. How is it actionable... any information helps me and others understand which auto is the best buy for safety, and how to interpret available data.
IMO, being safe on the road means assuming almost everyone else is driving drunk, stoned or high, therefore drive accordingly. I don't think I'm that far off either. Also, study those around you. The other day I had one of those guys behind you where their looking up every ten seconds, that means he's playing on this phone...let them pass or make more distance. Vehicle safety features can only do so much.
TN_Boy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by TN_Boy »

whodidntante wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:06 am Just my opinion. Crash test results ignore the physics of real-world collisions. Unless you actually hit an immovable object, f=m*a will come into play. So prefer something roughly the mass of a passenger bus. The logo on the front isn't going to make much difference. Of course, huge mass comes with its own downsides, but the safety aspect for the occupants is pretty hard to dismiss.
I don't think that is really true. I believe -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that crash test ratings are meant to be by category. I.e. nobody working in the field labors under the delusion that if a Chevy Suburban and a Mini Cooper have a head-on collision that things are likely to go well for the people in the Mini. Everybody understands the physics involved.

So, yes, if you want THE safest it would probably be the largest thing you could afford with a good overall safety rating. But most of us aren't buying like that, so if the ratings are useful, they would be used to compare like vehicles. And I'd suggest using all the resources mentioned in this thread.
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by nigel_ht »

sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 am
But as I look at the 2WD vs 4WD RAV4 (which is really AWD)... the IIHS stats seem wonky. For instance, I think it's fairly well known that AWD has been oversold as a "safety" feature.
The AWD version is heavier. I’ve also read that the weight distribution for the RAV4 is designed around the AWD model so performance is better.

The AWD on the RAV4 works when it thinks it needs to. It can get off the line a little faster than the 2WD…not that this is all that important but honestly I was quite surprised how much I liked testing the current RAV4 Prime.

In any case, I would look to see which car was the most recently updated between the subie and the RAV4 and pick that one.
UpperNwGuy
Posts: 9479
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by UpperNwGuy »

My brother-in-law has purchased Toyotas for many years because they had the best reliability, but now that he's getting on in years, he decided he needed the car with the best safety features. He spent a lot of time studying Toyota, Honda, and Subaru compact SUVs and reached the conclusion that the Subaru was the safest vehicle. He's been the proud owner of a Subaru Forester for the last two years.
tarmangani
Posts: 144
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:14 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by tarmangani »

I wouldn't base any decisions on this database. You kind of mentioned one of the reasons why, which is selection bias. These data, assuming even they are reliable, are observational. You should not make causal inferences.

I would instead focus on factors that contribute far more to safety than modern vehicle design, and which are (almost) totally in your control:

1) Drive slower

2) Observe following distance

3) Pay complete attention

4) Don't drive anymore than you have to
simplextableau
Posts: 436
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 9:20 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by simplextableau »

Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:13 pm On a personal level, it means one would need to drive an Outback instead of a RAV4 for an average of 142,876 years to prevent one death.
This right here. Double your chances of winning the Powerball and they're still practically zero. The Subaru may be better in absolute terms but you'll essentially never notice a difference. Buy whatever one will keep you happier and alert at the wheel, which is likely a more significant factor :D
skis4hire
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:54 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by skis4hire »

Neither. Safest cars are full EVs due to lower center of gravity, larger crumple zones, and higher than average weight. Toyota and Subaru are still head in the sand with their EV programs.

VW ID4, Model Y, Q4 etron, ioniq 5, EV6 are in the crossover class. ID4 is $33k after rebate and has excellent ADAS.
gmc2017
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:51 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by gmc2017 »

The website linked below combines crash test results and vehicle weight.

https://www.informedforlife.org/viewartcl.php?index=167
jayk238
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by jayk238 »

sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 am Title says it all. Please understand that I recognize that not all information pertaining to this topic will be available, and I will have to make a best decision with all available info. Also, just to get ahead of any "YOLA, stop overthinking it" criticism, I participate in a number of mildly to moderately risky activities (when was the last time you deadlifted 315lbs? 8-) ), but only after understanding, mitigating, and then accepting the risks.

Terrible time to buy a new car, I'm really just getting my plan together for when things calm down. Driving a 2005 Nissan Frontier with 180k miles, catalytic converter is slowing dying as a result of engine burning oil (qt/4k miles). Budget is preferably under 30k. Can afford more but not a fan of splurging on cars.

So fit (I'm tall, prefer 40" headroom) and reliability were my top metrics, but as I started looking into safety I became interested in this aspect. Overall, I have realized that since I can afford a less reliable (Subaru) car in a long-term maintenance sense, that might be the best move if safety is significantly better. The main motivation would be to avoid long term chronic pain or disability. One stat I found stated that 2M people sustained chronic injuries in the US annually (couldn't find the original source).

But, the the data are not straightforward... I'll explain.

For instance, both the Subaru Outback and the Toyota RAV4 have about 40" of headroom. Both are rated "good" for crashworthiness by IIHS https://www.iihs.org/ratings/vehicle/su ... wagon/2022). They both have ESC, and a variety of other new electronic features. However, when you look at the empirical data also from IIHS, it seems to be a slam dunk for Subaru on safety (BTW these data are adjusted for age and gender):

Source: https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-dea ... -and-model
2015-2017 Outback: 3 deaths (confidence limits 0-6)
2017 RAV4 2WD: 28 deaths (0-59)
2017 RAV4 4WD: 10 deaths (0-30)

However, the Subaru will skew towards a different demographic than the RAV4 (more affluent/educated than average?), whose tendencies might be more cautious on the road (https://www.torquenews.com/1084/subaru- ... ly-buys-it). But on the other hand, I sort of thought of Toyota as being a top pick for the affluent and educated as well. This aspect one is tough to quantify and IIHS can't adjust for it. But frankly I find it unlikely that this consideration would make a three to tenfold difference in fatalities! So this makes me think the IIHS data support the assertion that the crash cage is just safer on the Subaru.

But as I look at the 2WD vs 4WD RAV4 (which is really AWD)... the IIHS stats seem wonky. For instance, I think it's fairly well known that AWD has been oversold as a "safety" feature. The primary benefit of AWD appears to be not getting stuck at low speeds (boat ramp, snow, etc.) So why does the AWD RAV4 have 1/3 the fatalities? Could this be additional selection for affluent and thus safer drivers who "know" the AWD vehicle will keep them safe, but actualize additional safety only because they're safer drivers in that AWD vehicle?

To add another piece of evidence to the previous paragraph... compare the same model year trucks on the IIHS site, 2wd vs 4wd models. Most 4WD are part-time - you have to switch it into 4WD with a button, and it's not rated for normal driving speeds, you have to switch back to 2WD after you've negotiated the boat ramp, snow, etc. Well, the 4WD models also generally show much lower fatality rates... but I don't think people with the 2WD models are dying on the boat ramp, I think the 4WD models are just selecting for a more affluent demographic who "just have" to have 4WD for safety, or else have those specialized needs.

EDIT: Another factor that is almost impossible to consider is rural vs urban use, with rural being more dangerous due to greater use of 2-lane highways. I think the Subaru leans urban/suburban but I don't even know how to get data on that.

In conclusion, it would appear that some combination of demographics and actual safety performance are contributing to Subaru's numbers... I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks, and any other data sources you all might know of! Ultimately I'm just trying to tease out which vehicle is actually safer, versus which one benefits from the safer demographic of driver. Also I understand that IIHS is reverse-looking and that redesigns have occurred since 2017.
I do believe toyota and subaru share many of the same key components particularly when it comes to safety.

That said i love my outback. I dont see any comparison to the rav4. If you do get the outback get the highest end model i feel the outback has far more to offer overall particularly in winter.
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28859
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Watty »

jayk238 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:21 pm That said i love my outback. I dont see any comparison to the rav4.
The RAV4 is probably more comparable to the Subaru Forester. The Outback is bigger and heavier.

I bought a new Forester last spring and one thing to keep in mind is that many of the safety features are only available on the higher levels of trim and even then they may be an option. I had to buy the second highest trim level with the optional reverse auto braking package to get all the safety features I wanted.

The statistics you mentioned may be a bit misleading since they don't factor in which safety features the cars had.

When I was researching cars last spring one safety feature that I had not really considered much was that a lot of the cars now have advanced headlights. My Foresters headlight will swivel some when you are going around corners and they are noticeably better than any other car that I have ever had. I was driving it tonight and they are crazy bright but I have never had anyone flash their headlights at me like I had forgotten to turn down my high beams.

You may have seen this website with the top safety picks and it is interesting to note that some models only got the top safety pick rating if they had certain headlights that are only available on higher trim levels.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/good-i ... rash-rates

I don't have a link handy but the color of a car can also be statistically important in avoiding accidents. White is the safest color since it is the most visible at night.

On interesting thing was that when I bought the Forester it cost almost twice what the three year old Corolla it was replacing was worth. Much to my surprise my car insurance went down by about 10% even though the new car was much more expensive. My insurance agent said that was because the Forester qualified for a large safety discount. There are lot of factors but when you are comparing cars you may want to ask for insurance quotes and talk with your insurance agent about why they are rated the way the are.
User avatar
msi
Posts: 706
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:15 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by msi »

sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 am Also I understand that IIHS is reverse-looking and that redesigns have occurred since 2017.
That's no small detail. Both vehicles are in new generations, riding on new platforms, and with new safety features. You can't really base this on historical death rates.

Also, as Watty said, the fair comparison would be between the RAV4 and the Forester.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by lazydavid »

nigel_ht wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:55 pm
sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 am
But as I look at the 2WD vs 4WD RAV4 (which is really AWD)... the IIHS stats seem wonky. For instance, I think it's fairly well known that AWD has been oversold as a "safety" feature.
The AWD version is heavier. I’ve also read that the weight distribution for the RAV4 is designed around the AWD model so performance is better.
The AWD version weighs a whopping 120lbs more. Expecting a mass increase of just 3.5% to account for a 64% decrease in fatalities is stretching credulity quite a bit.
ClassOf2021
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:11 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by ClassOf2021 »

In 2018 I bought a Subaru primarily because of the additional safety features in the high level trim model (rather than eg a CRV). Initially I was going to get an outback but after test driving I went for a forester because of better visibility (larger windows and seemingly higher position…more for aesthetics from the driver’s perspective than for safety).

The forester also seems to have higher headroom which may be a factor if you are tall.
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 9372
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Nate79 »

They are both great. Drive both and see which one fits you best. I love the visibility of Subaru's.
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by nigel_ht »

lazydavid wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:28 am
nigel_ht wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:55 pm
sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 am
But as I look at the 2WD vs 4WD RAV4 (which is really AWD)... the IIHS stats seem wonky. For instance, I think it's fairly well known that AWD has been oversold as a "safety" feature.
The AWD version is heavier. I’ve also read that the weight distribution for the RAV4 is designed around the AWD model so performance is better.
The AWD version weighs a whopping 120lbs more. Expecting a mass increase of just 3.5% to account for a 64% decrease in fatalities is stretching credulity quite a bit.
And better weight distribution and more power to the ground when needed. OP thinks the AWD applies mostly on boat ramps…but it also applies on freeway ramps. The AWD 0-60 times is often a second faster than the FWD version.

We’re also not talking large numbers so while 64% sounds large it isn’t.

10 vs 28. That’s within the confidence limits (0-30 and 0-59).

So yes, that’s enough for the slight difference in outcomes.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by JoeRetire »

sippyCUP wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:02 amI'm curious as to what everyone else thinks
I think you are overthinking this.

These days, for any cars rated high on safety by Consumer Reports, the individual driver's actions and abilities far outweigh any feature differences in the cars themselves.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by nigel_ht »

skis4hire wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:52 pm Neither. Safest cars are full EVs due to lower center of gravity, larger crumple zones, and higher than average weight. Toyota and Subaru are still head in the sand with their EV programs.

VW ID4, Model Y, Q4 etron, ioniq 5, EV6 are in the crossover class. ID4 is $33k after rebate and has excellent ADAS.
Meh. The RAV4 Prime is a PHEV with a decent EV range. The primary reason the RAV4 didn’t get the same Top Safety Plus is because the standard headlights are rated poor.

While Toyota like Hybrid I don’t believe it’s because they can’t make an EV. They’ve come out and said that they are limited by battery production capacity…they can sell 28,000 EVs or 1.5M hybrids.

They are also happier with NiMH longevity vs LI…there are fleet Priuses (aka taxis) on their original packs at over 100K miles.

Plus they, somewhat uncharacteristically, are trying to skate to where they think the puck will be…hydrogen. I’m thinking that’s a little unlikely but their current electrification strategy isn’t because they don’t have the requisite EV skills.

As much as I like EVs the PHEVs make more sense to my use case. Very short commutes during the week with 260mi round trip drives on weekends…
User avatar
snackdog
Posts: 3102
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:57 am
Location: PNW

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by snackdog »

I would get a lightly used RX350 with your budget - safe, reliable and comfortable.

If you are as freaked out about safety as you say, then reduce your risk exposure. Don't drive after dark or in adverse weather. Combine all your shopping into 1 or 2 outings per month. Don't commute to work or shuttle kids by car. Avoid rural areas with unsafe roads (high speed, no median) and long distances to help/hospitals. Slow down. Be careful at intersections.
BH Consumer FAQ: | Car? Used Toyota, Lexus or Miata. | House? 20% down and 3x salary. | Vacation house? No. | Umbrella? $1 million. | Goods? Costco.
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by dbr »

snackdog wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:26 am I would get a lightly used RX350 with your budget - safe, reliable and comfortable.

If you are as freaked out about safety as you say, then reduce your risk exposure. Don't drive after dark or in adverse weather. Combine all your shopping into 1 or 2 outings per month. Don't commute to work or shuttle kids by car. Avoid rural areas with unsafe roads (high speed, no median) and long distances to help/hospitals. Slow down. Be careful at intersections.
Yes. This is absolutely being overthought and if a person is that concerned the advice is exactly to reduce exposure. Maybe after that is to do serious work on one's driving habits (no drinking, no speeding, no distracted driving, attending to vision defects, etc.) -- also mentioned above.

Getting back to makes and models, the choices compared are not different in safety performance for anyone in particular as far as can be possibly determined. It is true that large differences in vehicle weight have a significant effect as does any occurrence of a design or maintenance defect -- not likely in the choices mentioned.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:13 pm Well, your post distracted me towards a deep dive into the data. Here’s a more comprehensive article from the IIHS on fatal accident rates by model:

https://www.iihs.org/api/datastoredocum ... t/pdf/55/2

I have no expertise in car safety, but I do interpret statistics as a part of my work. So here’s a couple of things that might help you to think about them:

1. The confidence intervals are quite wide around the point estimate and overlap. This usually means the difference is not statistically significant and could be explained by chance.

2. The “exposure” figures are a little puzzling. The are twice as many vehicle-years of data for the Outback, despite the fact that the RAV4 has 2-3 times the sales figures. Maybe just due to how data was pooled, but it makes me wonder if some confounder could have been introduced.

3. It’s often more helpful to make comparisons based on “number needed to harm” rather than relative risks. So for the numbers you provided, if we take them at face value:
142,876 RAV4’s (4WD) need to be driven instead of an Outback to result in one extra death per year (7 excess deaths per 1M vehicle years). On a personal level, it means one would need to drive an Outback instead of a RAV4 for an average of 142,876 years to prevent one death.


Btw: the stat is deaths per 1M registered vehicle years (doesn’t look at miles driven).
Hey, I really appreciate your insight. Number needed to harm is a great way to look at this. For my own purposes, I would probably try to transform the units from "deaths" to "serious injury/disability" by finding some data on total number of accidents annually and then percentage involving disability. I'm basically assuming that disability rate directly correlates with death rate. Also you're correct, I fudged the denominator units, it's just vehicle years.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

Watty wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:58 am
jayk238 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:21 pm That said i love my outback. I dont see any comparison to the rav4.
The RAV4 is probably more comparable to the Subaru Forester. The Outback is bigger and heavier.

I bought a new Forester last spring and one thing to keep in mind is that many of the safety features are only available on the higher levels of trim and even then they may be an option. I had to buy the second highest trim level with the optional reverse auto braking package to get all the safety features I wanted.

The statistics you mentioned may be a bit misleading since they don't factor in which safety features the cars had.

When I was researching cars last spring one safety feature that I had not really considered much was that a lot of the cars now have advanced headlights. My Foresters headlight will swivel some when you are going around corners and they are noticeably better than any other car that I have ever had. I was driving it tonight and they are crazy bright but I have never had anyone flash their headlights at me like I had forgotten to turn down my high beams.

You may have seen this website with the top safety picks and it is interesting to note that some models only got the top safety pick rating if they had certain headlights that are only available on higher trim levels.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/good-i ... rash-rates

I don't have a link handy but the color of a car can also be statistically important in avoiding accidents. White is the safest color since it is the most visible at night.

On interesting thing was that when I bought the Forester it cost almost twice what the three year old Corolla it was replacing was worth. Much to my surprise my car insurance went down by about 10% even though the new car was much more expensive. My insurance agent said that was because the Forester qualified for a large safety discount. There are lot of factors but when you are comparing cars you may want to ask for insurance quotes and talk with your insurance agent about why they are rated the way the are.
Thanks for your insights, in particular vehicle color and insurance cost as a proxy for safety! Maybe I just call my insurer and get some quotes. They have the data and they definitely have great incentive to utilize it accurately.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

Nate79 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:38 am They are both great. Drive both and see which one fits you best. I love the visibility of Subaru's.
Yeah the visibility is important, I'll definitely take notes on that during test drives. Since I put the seat back pretty far to accommodate my legs, to look through the drivers windows sometimes I have to bend my torso forward to see past the B-pillar. On the Outback (CY20?) I didn't have to do that.
Topic Author
sippyCUP
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by sippyCUP »

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this thread. While one can certainly stray into "overthinking" during this sort of analysis, I think when you consider that ~1%-5% (say death to injury) annual consequence risk, I personally consider some reflection and understanding of available data to be a value-added exercise, since we can't totally eliminate collision risk with our own behavior. But hey, at the end of the day I'll operate a new motor vehicle, still a fundamentally dangerous situation compared to say doing the dishes. I definitely acknowledge that our personal risk profile on the road is the dominant factor, and will continue to drive defensively.

Thank you all again!
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28859
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Watty »

One more thought. Since small differences in safety are so important to you then you might want to consider if leasing a car would make sense for you. That way you can swap it out for a new model every few years to get the latest safety features.

That would not be the cheapest way to own a car but the extra cost might be worth it to you.

Another stragety is to plan on replacing your car periodically to get a new car with the better safety features. My general car ownership stragety is to by new car then replace when they are 10 years old even if they are still running fine. A ten year old Honda/Subaru/Toyota will sell for a surprising amount which makes this more reasonable.
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by dbr »

sippyCUP wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:34 am I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this thread. While one can certainly stray into "overthinking" during this sort of analysis, I think when you consider that ~1%-5% (say death to injury) annual consequence risk, I personally consider some reflection and understanding of available data to be a value-added exercise, since we can't totally eliminate collision risk with our own behavior. But hey, at the end of the day I'll operate a new motor vehicle, still a fundamentally dangerous situation compared to say doing the dishes. I definitely acknowledge that our personal risk profile on the road is the dominant factor, and will continue to drive defensively.

Thank you all again!
As pointed out before, a one-one benefit can be obtained by driving less. I know one of the key questions on a life expectancy questionnaire for young people is how many miles a year you drive.

When we retired my auto use changed from a 20 mile daily round trip commute to not driving the car at all more days than not. That was a larger reduction in risk than changing out the old Buick for an Outback. Travelling abroad we tend to use trains rather than drive cars everywhere and travel is more often by air than by taking road trips, FWIW. I do know people who have been killed or injured in auto accidents all over the world and none have been killed in air crashes or train wrecks. Also busses can be safer than cars, here and there.
User avatar
Ben Mathew
Posts: 2720
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:41 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Ben Mathew »

The IIHS analysis is interesting, but has the selection bias problem that you and others have pointed out. So I have used the IIHS fatality statistics only to rule out models and vehicle types on the higher end of the fatality statistics. I've relied more on crash test results because it's unbiased. Not too lightweight + good crash tests is a good starting point I think for safety. Not sure if you've looked at it already, but if you haven't, look also at the NHTSA crash results. I believe the NHTSA tests are the "main" ones and the IIHS small overlap crash tests supplement where IIHS felt NHTSA testing was inadequate. Consumer reports shows both NHTSA and IIHS crash test results so you can see everything in one place.

Last time I checked, Subaru models seemed to be more consistently earning 5-star NHTSA crash ratings than Toyota models.
Total Portfolio Allocation and Withdrawal (TPAW)
Nowizard
Posts: 4839
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Nowizard »

Drive both and consider that in your choice. Arguably, with two "safe" vehicles, the greatest safety depends on the driving comfort and style of the driver. Having owned both Subaru's and Toyota's, the latter is a clear choice, partially based on the higher driver position.

Tim
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 9372
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Nate79 »

sippyCUP wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:25 am
Nate79 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:38 am They are both great. Drive both and see which one fits you best. I love the visibility of Subaru's.
Yeah the visibility is important, I'll definitely take notes on that during test drives. Since I put the seat back pretty far to accommodate my legs, to look through the drivers windows sometimes I have to bend my torso forward to see past the B-pillar. On the Outback (CY20?) I didn't have to do that.
Based on our experience the visibility, driving position, and dynamics of the Subaru are vastly better than the equivalent Toyota. But it's all about personal preference.
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by dbr »

Nate79 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:03 pm
sippyCUP wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:25 am
Nate79 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 7:38 am They are both great. Drive both and see which one fits you best. I love the visibility of Subaru's.
Yeah the visibility is important, I'll definitely take notes on that during test drives. Since I put the seat back pretty far to accommodate my legs, to look through the drivers windows sometimes I have to bend my torso forward to see past the B-pillar. On the Outback (CY20?) I didn't have to do that.
Based on our experience the visibility, driving position, and dynamics of the Subaru are vastly better than the equivalent Toyota. But it's all about personal preference.
I actually landed on the Outback the last time I went car shopping because current sedan designs had unacceptable vision out side the car and Google for best choice of vision out of the car recommended 1. Forrester and 2. Outback. We chose the Outback as smoother and more comfortable driving. Also the Forrester is top ranking for ease of entry and exit, Outback not far behind.
RuralLivin
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:57 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by RuralLivin »

My daughter has a 2013 Subaru Outback w/ AWD and has used it in her job traveling statewide in Montana. It seemed to me that half of the vehicles I saw on the road in Montana are Subaru's. She has never had a problem driving anywhere; but, studded tires are needed in winter.

Last year, she hit a deer that ran out in front of her on a two lane road while traveling about 65mph and incurred $7k of damages. She said the deer exploded on impact. She drove it home and to the repair shop a couple of days later. She had no injuries.

I will also add I'm 6'4" and 250lbs; I can sit very comfortably in the back seat of her Outback. I can't do that in most vehicles.

If trailer towing is a requirement, I recall the Outback had limited ability.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by JackoC »

TN_Boy wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:46 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:06 am Just my opinion. Crash test results ignore the physics of real-world collisions. Unless you actually hit an immovable object, f=m*a will come into play. So prefer something roughly the mass of a passenger bus. The logo on the front isn't going to make much difference. Of course, huge mass comes with its own downsides, but the safety aspect for the occupants is pretty hard to dismiss.
I don't think that is really true. I believe -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that crash test ratings are meant to be by category. I.e. nobody working in the field labors under the delusion that if a Chevy Suburban and a Mini Cooper have a head-on collision that things are likely to go well for the people in the Mini. Everybody understands the physics involved.
OP is talking about IIHS *driver death rate* statistics. Those are not the result of crash tests but real life use of the vehicles in whatever crashes happen, against immovable objects, much heavier commercial trucks, comparably heavy or lighter other private vehicles or death without crashing into something per se (roll over, drive into a lake and can't get out, etc).

Another post said they preferred the *crash test* data because it didn't have 'bias' but there's a potential basic weakness in each category of stats:
1. the IIHS driver death rate statistics as OP went into do not correct for whether drivers from different elements of society (age, socio-econ status, rural v urban etc) both a) take much more or less driving risk* and b) are greatly more/less represented among the drivers of the Toyota and Subaru models given.

2. the IIHS crash tests in contrast are specifically designed to mimic a collision with a vehicle of similar weight. It's often misunderstood and IMO not emphasized enough by them (though you can easily find it in their explanations) that crash test ratings are only useful to compare vehicles around the same size. A study of the driver death rate stats makes it obvious small vehicles have higher driver death rates relatively (this discussion is about Outback at 3 vs. RAV4 at 10 or 28; Corolla is 54), though size of vehicle is a less obvious factor between fairly big and very big vehicles.
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests

So in this case, vehicles around the same size, I would look at the crash test ratings as a reality check whether Outback and RAV4 really differ that greatly in safety. But I wouldn't conclude that *all* the big difference in the Subaru's favor was due to lower risk drivers buying them. In the real world there are limited stats, and just inventing your own 'corrections' to them doesn't solve the problem. I would favor the Subaru given its advantage in the death rate stats and both models having basically the same crash test results. I would do so recognizing the death rate difference is probably partly an artifact of different customer profiles of the two models and conceivably might all be. There's no alternative info source that corrects for everything at once.

*that includes not only how, but where and when people of different ages and backgrounds drive. Rural roads in the US for example have much higher fatal accident rates as a rule than suburban; if a vehicle is particularly popular/unpopular in places with more dangerous roads that could factor in even if the drivers were the same.
Stumptowngal
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:12 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by Stumptowngal »

We have owned both Toyota and Subaru vehicles in the past several decades. At the present, we have a 2019 Toyota RAV4 Hybrid and a 2021 Subaru Ascent.

We like them both for different reasons. Obviously the gas mileage is superior on the Toyota hybrid. They both have the latest safety features available. I prefer the user interface on the Subaru more but the safety features on both are reliable.

Where I see a real safety difference between the two is in the AWD systems. Subaru is AWD all the time; whereas the Toyota is front wheel drive until a problem is perceived and then sends power to the appropriate wheels. If you’re driving in snow conditions at highway speeds that makes a real difference especially on curves.
TN_Boy
Posts: 4134
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:51 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by TN_Boy »

JackoC wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:37 pm
TN_Boy wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:46 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:06 am Just my opinion. Crash test results ignore the physics of real-world collisions. Unless you actually hit an immovable object, f=m*a will come into play. So prefer something roughly the mass of a passenger bus. The logo on the front isn't going to make much difference. Of course, huge mass comes with its own downsides, but the safety aspect for the occupants is pretty hard to dismiss.
I don't think that is really true. I believe -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that crash test ratings are meant to be by category. I.e. nobody working in the field labors under the delusion that if a Chevy Suburban and a Mini Cooper have a head-on collision that things are likely to go well for the people in the Mini. Everybody understands the physics involved.
OP is talking about IIHS *driver death rate* statistics. Those are not the result of crash tests but real life use of the vehicles in whatever crashes happen, against immovable objects, much heavier commercial trucks, comparably heavy or lighter other private vehicles or death without crashing into something per se (roll over, drive into a lake and can't get out, etc).

Another post said they preferred the *crash test* data because it didn't have 'bias' but there's a potential basic weakness in each category of stats:
1. the IIHS driver death rate statistics as OP went into do not correct for whether drivers from different elements of society (age, socio-econ status, rural v urban etc) both a) take much more or less driving risk* and b) are greatly more/less represented among the drivers of the Toyota and Subaru models given.

2. the IIHS crash tests in contrast are specifically designed to mimic a collision with a vehicle of similar weight. It's often misunderstood and IMO not emphasized enough by them (though you can easily find it in their explanations) that crash test ratings are only useful to compare vehicles around the same size. A study of the driver death rate stats makes it obvious small vehicles have higher driver death rates relatively (this discussion is about Outback at 3 vs. RAV4 at 10 or 28; Corolla is 54), though size of vehicle is a less obvious factor between fairly big and very big vehicles.
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/about-our-tests

So in this case, vehicles around the same size, I would look at the crash test ratings as a reality check whether Outback and RAV4 really differ that greatly in safety. But I wouldn't conclude that *all* the big difference in the Subaru's favor was due to lower risk drivers buying them. In the real world there are limited stats, and just inventing your own 'corrections' to them doesn't solve the problem. I would favor the Subaru given its advantage in the death rate stats and both models having basically the same crash test results. I would do so recognizing the death rate difference is probably partly an artifact of different customer profiles of the two models and conceivably might all be. There's no alternative info source that corrects for everything at once.

*that includes not only how, but where and when people of different ages and backgrounds drive. Rural roads in the US for example have much higher fatal accident rates as a rule than suburban; if a vehicle is particularly popular/unpopular in places with more dangerous roads that could factor in even if the drivers were the same.
My post was responding specifically to "just my opinion. Crash test results ignore the physics of real-world collisions," hence its rather limited scope about the crash tests, not the drivers. I was making the point you make in 2.

Crash test results show how like vehicles fare in several specific types of collisions. Driver death rates -- sure that mixes vehicle and driver profile differences. I'd personally be surprised if Subaru drivers were all that different from Toyota RAV4 drivers, but don't really know.

I'd also agree with the OPs observation that 2WD versus 4WD differences in RAV4 stats are very difficult to explain. I don't think there is any evidence at all that 4WD or AWD has any significant safety advantages. That sort of stat is hard to explain, and shows we don't fully understand something about those driver death rate stats (well, I suppose it could be that for some reason the 4WD RAV4 really is a lot safer, but I find that very hard to believe).

I suspect Doctor Rhythm's post is the most useful one in this thread ..... from a safety standpoint, I'd be happy with either vehicle the OP is interested in.
nigel_ht
Posts: 4742
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:14 am

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by nigel_ht »

As a note…I wouldn’t buy a 2017 outback. It wasn’t clear in your post if you were looking for new vs used but Subaru had to extend their CVT warranty to 10 years/100K miles because of so many issues.

In theory the 2021s are good although with the CVT recall in the Ascents maybe not. The outback’s had a stop sale because of a pre-braking issue and it’s own CVT recall for an issue with shifter cable nut. In 2019 they had to recall Foresters because part of the suspension could fall off.

Toyota has had its own recalls…fuel pump could make your engine stall and that was for millions of vehicles. And headlights that might catch fire (Tundra I think).

Still, the CVT issue was widespread enough that I paged through a lot of complaints in the subie forums…enough that I wouldn’t get a 2017 close to or above 100K…

I decided to wait for the electric F150 to come out and probably look for a used F150 hybrid…or maybe Maverick hybrid.
WhatsIRR
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:52 pm

Re: Auto Safety: Toyota vs Subaru

Post by WhatsIRR »

Not on the safety side but comfort and long term pain.

I had the highest level 2012 Outback, it was a good enough car but after about 2 hours in it I started having back pain. Once I got the 2 hour mark most trips turned into 30 minute and stop trips. I sold the Outback and got an F150, I can do 6+ hours non stop with no pain in the truck.

I’m 6’3”.

If possible see if you can get an extended test drive and try to put some longer hours in the drivers seat if the dealer will allow.
Post Reply