Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

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2pedals
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Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by 2pedals »

DW wants a kitchen renovation. I have a few questions for BH folks who have done some kitchen remodelling and renovations.

What is your preferred way to install the floor? Before (under the cabinets) or after the cabinets (around the cabinets) are installed? DW has selected a ceramic plank look tile she likes and a Pergo luxury laminate vinyl she likes. What product would you prefer?
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Cyclesafe
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Cyclesafe »

Ceramic and before the cabinets are installed all day long. Vinyl dents and stains. Cabinets can be damaged by subsequent flooring installation which although consuming less material, incurs more labor. You'll probably not care if the floor isn't exactly flush with the wall. You will care greatly that there are no gaps in front of cabinets.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by jabberwockOG »

When a house is built the kitchen cabinets are typically installed on the subfloor, going in before the finish flooring/tile/etc. There may be builders that install flooring first but its not the usual process.

For a remodel especially with cabinet configuration changes patching or entirely replacing the finish flooring is usually an issue that has to be addressed but its usually done after cabinets and other mods are installed.
Normchad
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Normchad »

I’m not hard over either way. My slight preference would be to do the cabinets first, then the floor. But definitely make sure the floor is down before the dishwasher and fridge go in.

I’d like the floors as late as possible so as to not have to worry about them being damaged. Also, you use less materials by not putting flooring under your cabinets.

My argument for doing it the other way is that I’m tall, and it would be nice to have counters that were an inch higher…..

I wouldn’t put ceramic or porcelain tiling in my kitchen. I’m a not shoes kind of guy, and that’s just rough on my feet. I’d consider LVP. Currently, I have hardwood in my kitchen (it wasn’t our choice), but honestly, I love it.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by smalliebigs »

I recently did the whole house, including kitchen, with vinyl planks. It's waterproof, lasts a long time, and pretty easy to install.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by toomanysidehustles »

2pedals wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:57 pm DW wants a kitchen renovation. I have a few questions for BH folks who have done some kitchen remodelling and renovations.

What is your preferred way to install the floor? Before (under the cabinets) or after the cabinets (around the cabinets) are installed? DW has selected a ceramic plank look tile she likes and a Pergo luxury laminate vinyl she likes. What product would you prefer?
We've done both ways. For our primary home, we did full red oak on the floors and cabinets on the floor directly as we moved a wall and deleted our traditional dining room.

We are turning one of our rentals into a higher end AirBnB and we ripped out the kitchen cabinets and 20 year old pergo. Installed new cabinets but shimmed them up 3/4" (with hardwood scrap) directly on the subfloor. Red oak installed all the way around new cabinets.

Check the prices of LVP (Luxury Vinyl Planks) vs. traditional hardwood. My wife thinks LVP looks/sounds cheap, and it has a clicking noise when walking on it with certain shoes (and dogs feet) compared to hardwood. The price for hardwood was only about $2K more for about 800 sq/ft.
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

Vinyl plank is not supposed to be installed under the cabinets according to the manufacturer, although it can be installed beneath the dishwasher, stove, and fridge. My wife and I renovated our kitchen 2 years ago, and we used vinyl plank. It looks very nice, but it does sound plastic-like when you walk across it.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by tigermilk »

We are almost done with a kitchen renovation. We had tile, but due to a new layout it had to go. Original build did not have tile under the original cabinet. We replaced with wood laminate, Did cabinets first and then floor. Since the flooring is floating and can expand and contract with temperature, it is not good to constrain it with the cabinets. This way they still float. For tile that is not an issue.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Bogle7 »

Ask your architect.
You did hire one?
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ace_it
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by ace_it »

The kitchen we have was renovated by the previous owner.

It was done right with good quality. It has tiles under the cabinets. The tiles are made of porcelain with a layer of shiny watermark. When clean it looks immaculate. Even when kids drop food or liquids on the tiles, it is very easy to clean. We don't have to worry about damages of leaving liquids on the floor if we happen to not notice it right away.

I would prefer the tiles to be laid diagonally, which makes the place appear roomier. It adds cost to both labor and material, but that is a personal preference.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by brad.clarkston »

Floor first and then cabinets.

Any builder or renovator that does cabinets then floor isn't getting or worth my money.
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wilked
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by wilked »

No brainer, floor then cabinets


Then cover floor with ram board to protect it
stan1
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by stan1 »

I think there may be some regional variation. In California for example it is very, very common to set the cabinets directly on the slab foundation, shim them, and put any type of flooring around them.

I'd never consider setting cabinets on flooring other than solid wood or a tile I felt very comfortable keeping as long as I owned the house. If you think the cabinets would last longer than the flooring you'd definitely want to tile around them.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by brad.clarkston »

stan1 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:33 pm I think there may be some regional variation. In California for example it is very, very common to set the cabinets directly on the slab foundation, shim them, and put any type of flooring around them.

I'd never consider setting cabinets on flooring other than solid wood or a tile I felt very comfortable keeping as long as I owned the house. If you think the cabinets would last longer than the flooring you'd definitely want to tile around them.
I would add that I would never consider putting anything but hardwood or tile in a kitchen. Build for the long term quality and it will sell itself.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by DosCommas »

We updated the floors in our place before doing a kitchen renovation a few years later. I’ll say that getting the new cabinets supported and shimmed up to the right height to match the floating wood floor which also had a rather thick underlayment was a process. We also relocated our fridge and had to build up a floor to the exact same height in the new alcove. Our contractor mentioned it would have been much easier had the floors been installed fully underneath the cabinets.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by stan1 »

brad.clarkston wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:37 pm I would add that I would never consider putting anything but hardwood or tile in a kitchen. Build for the long term quality and it will sell itself.
People with pets and kids, even in very nice houses, are in love with vinyl plank products. You'll see it in $2M houses in coastal California occupied by working families, but people will rip and replace before they put the house on the market and "when the kids and pets are gone". It looks OK, and it is very very practical. It's a sign of relief for the family to say "Go ahead, I don't need to worry about the floors" (lifestyle simplification).
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by McCharley »

Of course you would do the floor first. Any later problems with the cabinets would be an easy fix. :beer
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

brad.clarkston wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:37 pm
stan1 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:33 pm I think there may be some regional variation. In California for example it is very, very common to set the cabinets directly on the slab foundation, shim them, and put any type of flooring around them.

I'd never consider setting cabinets on flooring other than solid wood or a tile I felt very comfortable keeping as long as I owned the house. If you think the cabinets would last longer than the flooring you'd definitely want to tile around them.
I would add that I would never consider putting anything but hardwood or tile in a kitchen. Build for the long term quality and it will sell itself.
But it you are putting the floor in yourself, vinyl plank is much easier than hardwood or ceramic tile.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Tribonian »

We’ve been happy with the tile we installed around the existing cabinets. We are very glad we upgraded to an epoxy grout which is tougher than the tile it binds and is completely non-porous so easy to keep clean.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by brad.clarkston »

stan1 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:49 pm
brad.clarkston wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:37 pm I would add that I would never consider putting anything but hardwood or tile in a kitchen. Build for the long term quality and it will sell itself.
People with pets and kids, even in very nice houses, are in love with vinyl plank products. You'll see it in $2M houses in coastal California occupied by working families, but people will rip and replace before they put the house on the market and "when the kids and pets are gone". It looks OK, and it is very very practical. It's a sign of relief for the family to say "Go ahead, I don't need to worry about the floors" (lifestyle simplification).
I'm sure vinyl plank is very nice and more than adequate, I'm just saying "I" wouldn't do it.
To each there own, it's a personal choice and the OP asked for various opinions.

I'm sure the baltic birch plywood strips I ripped and installed in out basement would work very well in a kitchen with the right protection but again I personally will only ever install hardwood or tile in any kitchen I own.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by privateer79 »

one issue we found with a vacation house we're the second owners of...

Renters did something (dumped hot water maybe?) on laminate flooring in the kitchen (bad design idea) causing it to buckle/unclick... after just installing LVT downstairs I said "easy peasy, I'll just pull up the cabinet trim and tap it back in".... turns out flooring is under the cabinet... which is under the granite counter top, and impossible to access... so our floor looks cruddy. :oops:

I'll give another thumbs up for LVT... we turned our noses up at it initially when redoing our residential kitchen... but after putting some in elsewhere (and scraping our refrigerator across our "premium vinyl sheet" floor which we bought because we wanted something softer dishes would bounce off of) ... we regretted not getting LVT at home.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by softwaregeek »

MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:55 pm
brad.clarkston wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:37 pm
stan1 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:33 pm I think there may be some regional variation. In California for example it is very, very common to set the cabinets directly on the slab foundation, shim them, and put any type of flooring around them.

I'd never consider setting cabinets on flooring other than solid wood or a tile I felt very comfortable keeping as long as I owned the house. If you think the cabinets would last longer than the flooring you'd definitely want to tile around them.
I would add that I would never consider putting anything but hardwood or tile in a kitchen. Build for the long term quality and it will sell itself.
But it you are putting the floor in yourself, vinyl plank is much easier than hardwood or ceramic tile.
I have a great deal of light commercial LVP from a place called Flooret. Made for doctors offices and the like, but I am hard on stuff and it has held up fantastically. I was sick of caring about the floor so I put in the strongest stuff I could find.
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2pedals
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by 2pedals »

Thanks, a lot of interesting comments.
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2pedals
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by 2pedals »

MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:59 pm Vinyl plank is not supposed to be installed under the cabinets according to the manufacturer, although it can be installed beneath the dishwasher, stove, and fridge. My wife and I renovated our kitchen 2 years ago, and we used vinyl plank. It looks very nice, but it does sound plastic-like when you walk across it.
I assume you have to be careful when moving the appliances over the vinyl planks.
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2pedals
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by 2pedals »

DosCommas wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:39 pm We updated the floors in our place before doing a kitchen renovation a few years later. I’ll say that getting the new cabinets supported and shimmed up to the right height to match the floating wood floor which also had a rather thick underlayment was a process. We also relocated our fridge and had to build up a floor to the exact same height in the new alcove. Our contractor mentioned it would have been much easier had the floors been installed fully underneath the cabinets.
Interesting. I was informed that the installer needs to know the thickness of the flooring. Is this a hard thing to know prior to the floor installation? The cabinet supplier said you would need to know the flooring thickness (if not installed under the cabinets) for the toe kick.
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2pedals
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by 2pedals »

privateer79 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:15 pm one issue we found with a vacation house we're the second owners of...

Renters did something (dumped hot water maybe?) on laminate flooring in the kitchen (bad design idea) causing it to buckle/unclick... after just installing LVT downstairs I said "easy peasy, I'll just pull up the cabinet trim and tap it back in".... turns out flooring is under the cabinet... which is under the granite counter top, and impossible to access... so our floor looks cruddy. :oops:

I'll give another thumbs up for LVT... we turned our noses up at it initially when redoing our residential kitchen... but after putting some in elsewhere (and scraping our refrigerator across our "premium vinyl sheet" floor which we bought because we wanted something softer dishes would bounce off of) ... we regretted not getting LVT at home.
I am starting to get sold on LVT. I like the idea of replacing LVT if needed and/or replacing cabinets if needed.
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2pedals
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by 2pedals »

brad.clarkston wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:33 pm
stan1 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:49 pm
brad.clarkston wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:37 pm I would add that I would never consider putting anything but hardwood or tile in a kitchen. Build for the long term quality and it will sell itself.
People with pets and kids, even in very nice houses, are in love with vinyl plank products. You'll see it in $2M houses in coastal California occupied by working families, but people will rip and replace before they put the house on the market and "when the kids and pets are gone". It looks OK, and it is very very practical. It's a sign of relief for the family to say "Go ahead, I don't need to worry about the floors" (lifestyle simplification).
I'm sure vinyl plank is very nice and more than adequate, I'm just saying "I" wouldn't do it.
To each there own, it's a personal choice and the OP asked for various opinions.

I'm sure the baltic birch plywood strips I ripped and installed in out basement would work very well in a kitchen with the right protection but again I personally will only ever install hardwood or tile in any kitchen I own.
Yes, I value everybody's personal choice here. We have had a vinyl sheet in our kitchen for years and our parents had the same thing. Never had tile or hardwood in the kitchen and I don't have any experience with LVT. I would imagine LVT is like legos and easy to install. I heard that hardwood doesn't hold up to water well and tile can crack if you drop something heavy. We live in the pacific northwest where earthquakes can happen every 10 years or so.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Wannaretireearly »

jabberwockOG wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:35 pm When a house is built the kitchen cabinets are typically installed on the subfloor, going in before the finish flooring/tile/etc. There may be builders that install flooring first but its not the usual process.

For a remodel especially with cabinet configuration changes patching or entirely replacing the finish flooring is usually an issue that has to be addressed but its usually done after cabinets and other mods are installed.
This. Cost 12k to install and at least 20k for materials. Whole house including kitchen. But this was hardwood composite.
I hope to never pay for a Reno again!
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

2pedals wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:15 pm
MikeWillRetire wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:59 pm Vinyl plank is not supposed to be installed under the cabinets according to the manufacturer, although it can be installed beneath the dishwasher, stove, and fridge. My wife and I renovated our kitchen 2 years ago, and we used vinyl plank. It looks very nice, but it does sound plastic-like when you walk across it.
I assume you have to be careful when moving the appliances over the vinyl planks.
Yes, we used sheets of 1/8" luan plywood temporary on top of the plank when moving the appliances
Casper
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Casper »

We just had our kitchen renovated this past summer. Contractor was highly professional and only does kitchens. They installed cabinets first, then did the flooring. I believe it's partly because it's easier to shim and level the cabinets before the flooring is down, but I could be wrong.

We chose LVP and absolutely love it. We chose Mannington Adura Rigid. Looks great, very easy to clean (no grout, and spills come right up), comfy on your feet, no plastic sound.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Benbo »

We just re-did our whole house with LVP, love it. In the kitchen we did the floor then cabs. Whichever way you go, be sure it's in your contract that the subfloor will be leveled to the spec of whichever flooring you choose. We had to fight with the flooring contractor when they laid the LVP over a dip in the kitchen floor. They eventually pulled up half the floor and poured self-leveler to fix the dip - which they should have done in the first place.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Hockey10 »

If the new floor is not installed first, pay attention to how it is installed in front of the dishwasher. If not done correctly, you may later have a problem getting the dishwasher out when it comes time to repair or replace the dishwasher.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Cody »

Not saying you are going to use Luxury Vynal flooring but if you install it yourself absolutely buy a flooring chopper (a good one for $100 or so is what we used) on tons of LVF. It paid for itself in the first hour in my opinion.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by ddurrett896 »

Tile floor. Shim the cabinets up to the floor height, then tile up to the cabinets - not underneath them.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by DoubleComma »

Admittedly I'm not expert, but all the comments about flooring under cabinets are very surprising to me. Maybe this is a flooring type situation or some regional "way things are done".

I have had 2 custom homes built. Each had ceramic tile flooring, most recent is ceramic planks with a wood grain look. Additionally each home had the cabinet bases set on the subfloor prior to flooring installation.

For what's its worth. initially we really wanted hardwood, but were consistently talked out of it due to wood/water lack of compatibility in the kitchen. Each home had/has continuous flooring through the entire house other than carpeted bedrooms and office, so we didn't want a transition from wood to tile for the kitchen. I believe some of the engineering hard wood products might be more compatible with water, but chose not to go down that path.

We always second guessed the Hardwood/Ceramic choice until we purchased our current mountain home. It has some type of engineered hardwood and we love the look but it definitely is more work than ceramic to keep looking its best. Haven't had a water issue, but we do have a entire wall of windows and recently changed a rug only to realize the wood has faded considerably in areas that get constant sun.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by hvaclorax »

OP,
Ours is under the cabinets. Never considered any other options.
We have slate flooring. No one else mentioned this product. Covers entry, powder room, kitchen and laundry. This allows three entrances to have slate right up to threshold. Entry with dirty boots etc. isn’t a problem. Product is similar to porcelain but natural stone and rough surface. Easy to seal, easy to clean, hides the dirt, doesn’t absorb water. Some may not like natural rough surface. We love it and the slight variation in colors and textures, rustic.We’ve had it for 20 years. Only problem was one slate in front of the sink had to be replaced. DIY worked fine. Does require periodic sealant.
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Re: Kitchen Renovation, what is your prefered way to do the floor?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

We had LVP installed everywhere on our first floor except for the laundry room and bathroom. Those two rooms are tiled.

The flooring was part of a kitchen remodel that went down to the studs, as we changed the floorplan.

First, for LVP to be installed properly the floor must be very level. If your floor is truly level, you won't have noise. The floor guys took probably three times as long leveling our floors than installing the LVP. Original flooring was carpet, changed to engineered wood to accommodate my power wheelchair.

The kitchen cabinets were installed first, then the flooring. We have a glass-top range, and the edges rest on the granite countertop with a seal below the range edges. Very tight installation, but also very nice looking. It took the installer about an hour to jigger the range legs so it was perfectly level and rested properly on the countertop. The days of having gaps or putting in a strip to cover gaps between ranges and countertops are over. Sure better measure perfectly, though.

I wasn't crazy about using LVP in the bathroom and laundry room, as I wasn't sold on LVP in wet areas, but when the master bath was remodeled, DW wanted LVP installed.

Our kitchen remodel was completed in early 2019, and we are still very happy and sold on LVP.

Broken Man 1999
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