Agreed. So who's your choice? There are only three. If you also have an objection to AO Smith, there is literally no tank water heater you can permit yourself to buy.criticalmass wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Bradford Whites are designed for plumber profits, not consumers or homeowners.
Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
There's no easy way to clear the sediment with a stock drain valve. Replace it with one of these:investingdad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:19 am Now is a good time to have a yearly service plan in place with a contractor you trust.
We do with the installer that did the original work when we built. Bumped to front of the line and covered portions of labor.
Our hot water heater is 12 years old and is popping from sediment buildup. Replaced the small relief canister but tech suggested just run it for now, no easy way to clear sediment and that was after he drained it.
https://www.amazon.com/Water-Connection ... 08R5YY33R/
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
With an end of life unit that is running on propane I would take a hard look at the new heat pump water heaters. Will be cheaper to operate at current energy prices and a lot of jurisdictions offer utility rebates etc on the install....
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Here is a video on it. If you have flex section it is very easy, if you have hard copper to the tank you may need a plumber.maineminder wrote: ↑Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:50 pmI'm liking this idea. This is something I can do myself. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wibngZTcWs
Did this at my last house where we had a single 50G gas heater and teenagers that used all the hot water. New house has two 40G in series so never runs out.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
My Bradford White 50 gal natural gas, natural ventilation, $1100 including installation in 2014, NJ right across from Manhattan, is leaking around the relief valve connection (rust streaks down the side, though by marking over them I've noticed it isn't happening all the time) so I'm sizing up replacement. The successor model model is $800 uninstalled at an online plumbing supply place.
Previous costs were
2012: $950 (flooded by Superstorm Sandy later that year, started up again after it dried out, but that presumably explains the short life)
1998: $689
All were with the same 'reliable but not cheap' plumber.
Previous costs were
2012: $950 (flooded by Superstorm Sandy later that year, started up again after it dried out, but that presumably explains the short life)
1998: $689
All were with the same 'reliable but not cheap' plumber.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.maineminder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:26 pm Got a leak.... Getting quotes for a 75g propane power vent hot water heater from $3000 to $4200 installed. These are rough quotes as I haven't actually had a technician actually look at what is required. 21yo water heater, so It's treated me well. Tankless, one rough quote was $5200.
Lowes has one I'd be interested in and they want $2109 for it plus installation and whatever else they charge.
Anyone else seeing these sorts of quotes? I read several of the old threads, and they seem to be 1/2 of what I'm seeing.
I really don't want to do it as I'm reading there have been quite a few code changes since 2001. Would much rather have it done correctly.
Ouch! Waiting for firm quotes.....
-s2kduff
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
A good impact wrench will get the anode rod out in seconds, no sweat:lazydavid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:53 am This is not correct. The 12-year comes with a 3x larger anode rod--0.9" in diameter, vs. 0.5" in the 6-year. The input is just a dip tube, which can be easily confirmed by looking at the service diagram in the manual. Additionally, while Rheem sells lots of replacement anode rods through their parts site, not one of them is a combination anode/inlet.
Unfortunately all this is moot, as the anode is not actually removable. Neither I nor my plumber was able to break the new one loose using a breaker bar and a cheater pipe. I suppose I could try an impact gun, but my plumber suggested I just let it be, rather than risk damaging the tank. I'm not too worried about it at any rate, since I've never seen a tank failure, which is the usual mode of failure when the anode wears out. I've replaced burners, thermostats, gas valves, thermocouples, lots of things, but never had a tank break and start leaking. So the larger anode rod and longer warranty is enough peace of mind for me.
https://youtu.be/F6lfBpAJYQI
But be careful if your tank is already old because the anode rod might break off and drop into the tank.
The picture at the end of the video shows the original anode rod from my Rheem Performance 6 Year water heater, after 5 years of use, so it still had some material left. My previous water heater was an A.O.Smith ProMax that developed a slow leak after 8 years. It was also before I even knew about replacing the anode rod, so I had to just replace it with the Rheem.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
It is a water heater. Any reputable plumber will call it the same.
-s2kduff
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
water heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Disagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
-s2kduff
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.JackoC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pmI've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
-s2kduff
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I'm a retired plumber. I've worked with hundreds of great mechanics. Most of them concentrate on the sports page. Water heater installation isn't brain surgery.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 pmDisagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
-s2kduff
Do you want tuna with good taste or tuna that tastes good.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Of course an appliance installation isn’t complicated, some folks DIY. Do you want a contractor that doesn’t even know basic terminology attempting this? I don’t. Displays lack of knowledge. Not unnoticed is you referring to the appliance as a water heater.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:55 pmI'm a retired plumber. I've worked with hundreds of great mechanics. Most of them concentrate on the sports page. Water heater installation isn't brain surgery.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 pmDisagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
-s2kduff
Do you want tuna with good taste or tuna that tastes good.
-s2kduff
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
My previous sentence *was* a split infinitive. IOW it's a joke son, or daughter, or as the case may be (I admit, a lame one).s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pmTrade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.JackoC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pmI've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
-s2kduff
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
You can do whatever you want with your money. I'll take plain mustard when that's all the specs require. Have a good day.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:18 pmOf course an appliance installation isn’t complicated, some folks DIY. Do you want a contractor that doesn’t even know basic terminology attempting this? I don’t. Displays lack of knowledge. Not unnoticed is you referring to the appliance as a water heater.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:55 pmI'm a retired plumber. I've worked with hundreds of great mechanics. Most of them concentrate on the sports page. Water heater installation isn't brain surgery.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 pmDisagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
-s2kduff
Do you want tuna with good taste or tuna that tastes good.
-s2kduff
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Good advice. I believe HP hot water heaters may be less reliable (more complex) but I don't know if there is any actual data on that (as opposed to anecdotal).
There are places in USA where electricity is so expensive this may just not work. I am thinking Connecticut in particular and also California.
Natural gas is the fuel at the margin of US power generation ie the last kwhr generated & consumed. Thus the gas price tends to set the power price (with a lag) in deregulated wholesale markets which can then get passed through to the consumer.
A relative is in a situation where a 3rd party owns the hot water tank & heater (this is not uncommon, at least where they live). Main impact is that the utility can turn off the water heater during periods of high electricity demand-- the "smart grid" 60 years before the smart grid, if you will. This has never been a problem, even w there were 2 teenagers in the house.
So that's another consideration. Time of Use (ToU) tariffs are increasingly common and so the hot water tank needs to be big enough to meet typical evening needs (it usually is sized that way anyhow).
On the good news, if one installs home solar PV, one can heat up the water during the daytime for essentially free using one's own electricity.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Did it work then, really?
(apparently there is no actual rule against split infinitives. 'nout wrong with "To boldly go".
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=25076
(just googled that, not vouching for its accuracy)
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I dont think electricity is expensive enough to price out propane anywhere except maybe in Hawaii. My dad lives in CT and his electric (under 20 cents) is cheaper than mine in Mass (almost 23 cents). By comparison Propane is over $3 a gallon here.Valuethinker wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:07 amThere are places in USA where electricity is so expensive this may just not work. I am thinking Connecticut in particular and also California.
1 gallon of propane = 91,000 BTU. So at $3 you get 30 kBTU/gal. No propane heater is 100% efficient so guess that a propane water heater is good for maybe 25 kBTU/$ net.
1 kWh of electric resistance heat is 3413 BTU. So at $0.20 you get 17 kBTU/$ for electric resistance.
At that math, a HPHWH only needs a COP (energy factor) of ~1.5 to be cost equivalent with propane. A quick google search show that many of them have COPs over 3 as long as they don't fall back to resistance heat.
Now if natural gas is available, the math probably doesn't work... but the OP clearly stated propane.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I replace anodes instead of tanks.lazydavid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:48 amAgreed. So who's your choice? There are only three. If you also have an objection to AO Smith, there is literally no tank water heater you can permit yourself to buy.criticalmass wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Bradford Whites are designed for plumber profits, not consumers or homeowners.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
My hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pmTrade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.JackoC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pmI've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
-s2kduff
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
If the only reason you are buying the bigger tank unit is to have enough water for the tub then you could look at putting an in-line heater in the tub. My wife complained about the jacuzzi water getting cold when she took a bath so I installed one of these on the water circulation line on the tub. As long as the water is flowing through the jets then the heater is heating the water. It plugs into a standard outlet.maineminder wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:21 pmWe currently have a 50g that can't properly fill a jet tub in the master bath. I tried to convince the builder it was inadequate, but he insisted it would be fine. To use the tub I need to crank up the temp on the hot water heater.surfstar wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:13 pm 75-g is huge
If you actually need that size, I'd think the tankless would pay for itself in efficiency, right? Any gas/city/etc rebates for that route also?
We're in an ultra-low nox required area, and I found a Rheem 40g for under $700 last year, that also qualified for a utility rebate of $75 or so. DIY - hope that was my last DIY, though! (12 year warranty)
Getting mixed opinions from the installers. One won't even install it. One claims I'll run out of hot water when I run out of propane. Go figure.....
The bigger units are pricey and the 30' run to the outside wall isn't helping.
https://www.amazon.com/Jacuzzi-Inline-W ... UTF8&psc=1
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I would further add to have your plumber crack loose the anode rod and lightly tighten (Rheem has a separate one from the inlet) when installing the new hot water heater so easy to replace when needed. I have experienced two hot water heater failures with catastrophic water leakage, once myself and a close friend. All in the 8-12 year range. I now regularly drain and replace anode rods. Rheem, Bradford White and AO Smith I all consider about the same. The Rheem and AO Smith I am familiar with have a separate anode rod.tdm757 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:47 pm NJ MCOL/HCOL area. Got plumber off of local Facebook group. Picked up $1,024 75 gal nat gas hot water heater at home Depot with plumber. Not direct vent. Installed for about $500 to $600. Direct replacement. I paid for materials from local plumbing supply and helped get new one in basement. Labor was about $100/hr and he said his standard rate was 5 hours.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
And I've never had a tank failure, yet have had to replace water heaters (the one I replaced last year was made in 1998). At which point you have to buy something.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:02 amI replace anodes instead of tanks.lazydavid wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:48 amAgreed. So who's your choice? There are only three. If you also have an objection to AO Smith, there is literally no tank water heater you can permit yourself to buy.criticalmass wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Bradford Whites are designed for plumber profits, not consumers or homeowners.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Right. Thank you. Your calculations make sense (and I probably could have run through them myself if I'd thought about it more).jharkin wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:48 amI dont think electricity is expensive enough to price out propane anywhere except maybe in Hawaii. My dad lives in CT and his electric (under 20 cents) is cheaper than mine in Mass (almost 23 cents). By comparison Propane is over $3 a gallon here.Valuethinker wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:07 amThere are places in USA where electricity is so expensive this may just not work. I am thinking Connecticut in particular and also California.
1 gallon of propane = 91,000 BTU. So at $3 you get 30 kBTU/gal. No propane heater is 100% efficient so guess that a propane water heater is good for maybe 25 kBTU/$ net.
1 kWh of electric resistance heat is 3413 BTU. So at $0.20 you get 17 kBTU/$ for electric resistance.
At that math, a HPHWH only needs a COP (energy factor) of ~1.5 to be cost equivalent with propane. A quick google search show that many of them have COPs over 3 as long as they don't fall back to resistance heat.
Now if natural gas is available, the math probably doesn't work... but the OP clearly stated propane.
An additional "good thing" is that electricity prices don't fluctuate with world oil prices but propane prices do. (caveat: mine do. The marginal plant on the UK system and about half of total energy generated is gas-fired; to an extent European gas supply prices are set by oil prices. And vice versa - superhigh natural gas prices have driven fuel oil prices up, because for some generators and industrial users, petroleum is now cheaper than NG).
I had mentally pencilled in a HW heater as having COP of c 2.0 (to be conservative). It really would be a cold air input source if COP was 1.0 (electric bar).
A close relative is in North America, and very un-modern electric heating has always provided her hot water. Without excessive cost or problem. But Heat Pump is future (price) proofing.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Just because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 amMy hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pmTrade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.JackoC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pmI've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pmwater heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
-s2kduff
https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf
-s2kduff
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
https://www.thehotwaterheaterguys.com/Mugatu wrote:Those water heaters are so hot right now.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
https://www.raypak.com/boilers-and-wate ... w-heaters/s2kduff wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 pmJust because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 amMy hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pmTrade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.JackoC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pmI've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
water heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
-s2kduff
https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf
-s2kduff
Raypak calls their product a hot water heater. Would you dismiss all of their products for cause?
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
To bring this to a close I went with a 50g propane power vent professional Rheem water heater. Total cost wound up being $2600 including the first service call. I had 4 quotes, the highest being $3600. The next highest over the $2600 was $3100. The company that installed it is one of the larger heating and plumbing companies in the area so I was ok with going with the lowest bid. 2 guys spent just about 3 hours installing it. I found the unit online for about $1700.
Turns out the leak in the tank was actually near the threads of the relief valve that connect it to a tank. Not sure if it could have been fixed, but I figured it was time to replace it anyway. The repair guy didn't seem too interested in trying to fix a 21 year old heater.
Some responses on some of the excellent comments I got (Thank You!):
I was entertaining an instant water heater but the entire house is done with 1/2" black iron. Inadequate for a Rinnai based on what I read in the installation manual. One guy said that would be in addition to the $5200 he quoted me. (He was the $3600 quote also on a Rheem). All the appliances that need heat are propane with the exception of the dishwasher. Pretty clear this guy just plain didn't want the job.
Never really considered the heat pump route. Would have saved me money, but I'm not sure there was enough space to install it anyway.
The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
The thermostatic mixing valve was an interesting discussion as the installer had never heard of it. I asked for a quote to install it and explained what it did. He discussed it with his boss, and his boss said it wouldn't increase the amount of 120 degree hot water, so I don't know why you'd need it. I gave up, didn't ask a second question and didn't get a quote. Fortunately the connections are braided, so I can just do it myself.
They made a hell of mess, needed some of my tools and had an inadequate pump to purge the old tank. It took nearly 2 hours to drain the tank so they could lift it out of the 1/2 flight of stairs to the outside. Nope, no hand truck either.
I say this was an interesting experience at many levels. The two guys here were clearly new to the business. I don't know what training they had.
Again, thank you all for your input. After watching what they did, this would certainly be a job I could have done as no code modifications were required. But, I didn't know that, they brought it, installed it and took it all away!
Turns out the leak in the tank was actually near the threads of the relief valve that connect it to a tank. Not sure if it could have been fixed, but I figured it was time to replace it anyway. The repair guy didn't seem too interested in trying to fix a 21 year old heater.
Some responses on some of the excellent comments I got (Thank You!):
I was entertaining an instant water heater but the entire house is done with 1/2" black iron. Inadequate for a Rinnai based on what I read in the installation manual. One guy said that would be in addition to the $5200 he quoted me. (He was the $3600 quote also on a Rheem). All the appliances that need heat are propane with the exception of the dishwasher. Pretty clear this guy just plain didn't want the job.
Never really considered the heat pump route. Would have saved me money, but I'm not sure there was enough space to install it anyway.
The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
The thermostatic mixing valve was an interesting discussion as the installer had never heard of it. I asked for a quote to install it and explained what it did. He discussed it with his boss, and his boss said it wouldn't increase the amount of 120 degree hot water, so I don't know why you'd need it. I gave up, didn't ask a second question and didn't get a quote. Fortunately the connections are braided, so I can just do it myself.
They made a hell of mess, needed some of my tools and had an inadequate pump to purge the old tank. It took nearly 2 hours to drain the tank so they could lift it out of the 1/2 flight of stairs to the outside. Nope, no hand truck either.
I say this was an interesting experience at many levels. The two guys here were clearly new to the business. I don't know what training they had.
Again, thank you all for your input. After watching what they did, this would certainly be a job I could have done as no code modifications were required. But, I didn't know that, they brought it, installed it and took it all away!
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
That's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"maineminder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to lesrn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.
But I don't sell new water heaters....
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Irregardless, my hot water heater keeps it hot too. A mute point, as it works great.s2kduff wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 pmJust because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 amMy hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.s2kduff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pmTrade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.JackoC wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pmI've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me.Californiastate wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
water heater
It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
-s2kduff
https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf
-s2kduff
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I just read the owners manual and in the maintenance section it says inspect the anode annually. You can see the top of the anode nut in a recessed area right on the top of the tank.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:56 pmThat's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"maineminder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to lesrn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.
But I don't sell new water heaters....
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Don't forget to explain to the neophyte how you backed it up. You shouldn't just slip on a socket with a 2' breaker bar and turn. You'll torque the whole water heater and damage other connections.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:56 pmThat's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"maineminder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to lesrn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.
But I don't sell new water heaters....
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I removed several off-topic posts. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Easily. I keep the tank full as static weight and nothing is damaged. No need for a 2’ breaker bar or to over torque. Brace the tank if necessary.Californiastate wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:22 pmDon't forget to explain to the neophyte how you backed it up. You shouldn't just slip on a socket with a 2' breaker bar and turn. You'll torque the whole water heater and damage other connections.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:56 pmThat's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"maineminder wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to learn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.
But I don't sell new water heaters....
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Ouch, too far…criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:01 pmIrregardless, my hot water heater keeps it hot too. A mute point, as it works great.s2kduff wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 pmJust because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.criticalmass wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 amMy hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.
https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf
-s2kduff
At the price from the OP, i may be tempted to find a hot water heater if ours goes out. Where does one fence a water heater these days?
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Like everything else, it costs what it costs. Get multiple estimates. Figure out where you want the split between cost and quality. For some people, everything is deemed expensive.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
The total cost for replacement and installation of a 50 gal. propane Bradford White water heater in the North Pacific area (Reno, NV) in Sept., 2021 was $2857. Labor cost was about 2/3 of water heater cost, as mentioned earlier as a good rule of thumb. I did not get other quotes since the price seemed reasonable and the plumbing company was eager to do the job on short notice.
Home repairp rices so not seem out of line to me. What I don't understand are some of the dental charges for procedures such as "root canal therapy" that my dental insurance does not cover. That of course is another thread/topic.
Home repairp rices so not seem out of line to me. What I don't understand are some of the dental charges for procedures such as "root canal therapy" that my dental insurance does not cover. That of course is another thread/topic.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Anode corrosion is dependent on several factors, especially water quality/purity. When the less noble anode rod is gone, any exposed tank steel becomes the anode instead. How long that takes varies, but the warranty length provides an idea of the manufacturer's estimated worst case.maineminder wrote: ↑Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:43 pmSame with me and it lasted 21 years. I guess we don't have hard water.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
2.5 years ago I had a plumber install this one:
Bradford White; 50 gal. Tall 40 MBH Potable Water and Residential Natural Gas Water Heater
$1600 with installation (included a new pan and code upgrade).
Works great.
Bradford White; 50 gal. Tall 40 MBH Potable Water and Residential Natural Gas Water Heater
$1600 with installation (included a new pan and code upgrade).
Works great.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
What is the recovery rate? Is it the same as your previous unit? Does it have the same maximum btu rating? This could also happen if the dip tube broke off inside the tank.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Release valve meaning drain valve at bottom of tank, or the high temp/pressure relief valve? The latter won’t drain much sediment. You need to drain sediment from the bottom.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Who knows? I've just heard of it happening from the service crew on rare occurrences.madbrain wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:21 amIt's the same exact model, AO Smith GCN 75 100 . I just checked the new label and compared against the picture of the old label. BTU is 75100 on both.Californiastate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:12 pm What is the recovery rate? Is it the same as your previous unit? Does it have the same maximum btu rating? This could also happen if the dip tube broke off inside the tank.
Recovery rate is listed as 72.82 on the old one, and 73 on the new one. Thank you very much for helping !
Why would the dip tube be broken on a brand new unit ? Poor QA ? Issue during transport ?
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
mb, what are the chances the water heater is plumbed backwards? Cold water should feed in the thru the dip tube to the bottom of the tank, hot water pulled off the top.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
I was thinking dip tube as well when reading the issue.wilked wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:05 amSounds like the dip tube to me.madbrain wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:21 amIt's the same exact model, AO Smith GCN 75 100 . I just checked the new label and compared against the picture of the old label. BTU is 75100 on both.Californiastate wrote: ↑Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:12 pm What is the recovery rate? Is it the same as your previous unit? Does it have the same maximum btu rating? This could also happen if the dip tube broke off inside the tank.
Recovery rate is listed as 72.82 on the old one, and 73 on the new one. Thank you very much for helping !
Why would the dip tube be broken on a brand new unit ? Poor QA ? Issue during transport ?
One way to test it. Same experiment, but instead of filling a tub fill something (basement sink?) via hose connected to bottom drain of water heater (with appropriate fittings). If you get a different response than your tub it has to be the dip tube.
The water in the tank at the beginning of your previous experiment won’t be different temps at different levels, especially if it’s been idle for a period - it’s one temperature. That said, once you start dispensing water fresh (cold) water is added to the top, introducing a temp gradient. If you’re not pulling off the bottom (ie dip tube failure) you’ll see the response you got in your bathtub.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Maybe it was assembled backwards at the factory. There's really no difference between the input and the output fittings other than the length of pipe that's supposed to be beneath them.
Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
There is a range between total dip tube failure and “slight crack” in diptube. Diptube should be removable, albeit he will have to cut the copper. I’d set some sort of timetable and say if not fixed by X get a new unit inmadbrain wrote: ↑Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:23 pmNo basement here in California This 75 gallon water heater only serves one bathroom, which is located upstairs, with the 3 shower heads, the roman tub, and double sink faucets. I believe its main purpose is to be able to fill the large roman tub. The rest of the house, which has 3.5 bathrooms, kitchen, and a bar, runs fine on a 50 gallon water heater. Of course, there are only 2 of us living in the house. The 3 cats don't use hot water.
So, the installer came back this afternoon. He is still here. He tested at my roman tub and saw a temperature drop from 119 to 112 in 5 minutes.The water in the tank at the beginning of your previous experiment won’t be different temps at different levels, especially if it’s been idle for a period - it’s one temperature. That said, once you start dispensing water fresh (cold) water is added to the top, introducing a temp gradient. If you’re not pulling off the bottom (ie dip tube failure) you’ll see the response you got in your bathtub.
He also tested temperature at the drain at the bottom of the water heater. It started around 119 and dropped to 117 in 10 minutes.
He wanted to blame my plumbing, saying it's probably the thermostatic valves in my old faucets mixing cold water causing the drop. I wasn't having any of it. Too much of a coincidence for them to fail the same day the new water heater was installed.
I wanted him to rule out my plumbing, so I had him hookup the hose to the outlet of the the water heater. With the rate set to a comparable gpm as my tub faucet, we saw a drop from 122 to 112 within 10 minutes. So, finally, my plumbing was ruled out.
Installer thinks if it was the dip tube, the temperature drop would be much more than 10 degrees in 10 minutes. So, as of now, the cause of the temperature drop is not known.
The thermostat has been identified as one problem. It shouldn't be off by more than 10 degrees. On the B setting, temperature should be at 140. It's off by 21 degrees at the bottom drain, and off by 18 degrees at the top.
Installer checked gas pressure, saying it drops to 5.4 and the minimum for the unit is 6. But the old unit had the exact same minimum, according to the picture of the label I kept.
This will definitely not be fixed today as there is no new thermostat or replacement unit on the truck ...
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?
Your local utility company should be able to come out to verify your natural gas pressure at your meter and appliance. I know PG&E used to do it for free. IIRC the CPUC mandates a pressure range of 6" to 8" wc for natural gas. Your 5.4"wc doesn't sound bad at all at the appliance under load. Your owners manual should detail the requirements.
Before I retired, I would contact the factory rep when an appliance, fixture or piece of equipment didn't seem to be operation correctly.
Before I retired, I would contact the factory rep when an appliance, fixture or piece of equipment didn't seem to be operation correctly.