Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

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lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by lazydavid »

criticalmass wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Bradford Whites are designed for plumber profits, not consumers or homeowners.
Agreed. So who's your choice? There are only three. If you also have an objection to AO Smith, there is literally no tank water heater you can permit yourself to buy.
Luke Duke
Posts: 1333
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am
Location: Texas

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Luke Duke »

investingdad wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:19 am Now is a good time to have a yearly service plan in place with a contractor you trust.

We do with the installer that did the original work when we built. Bumped to front of the line and covered portions of labor.

Our hot water heater is 12 years old and is popping from sediment buildup. Replaced the small relief canister but tech suggested just run it for now, no easy way to clear sediment and that was after he drained it.
There's no easy way to clear the sediment with a stock drain valve. Replace it with one of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Water-Connection ... 08R5YY33R/
jharkin
Posts: 3469
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:14 am
Location: Boston suburbs

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by jharkin »

With an end of life unit that is running on propane I would take a hard look at the new heat pump water heaters. Will be cheaper to operate at current energy prices and a lot of jurisdictions offer utility rebates etc on the install....
teCh0010
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:20 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by teCh0010 »

maineminder wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:50 pm
teCh0010 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:52 pm Crank up the temp and install a mixing valve just after the tank.
I'm liking this idea. This is something I can do myself. Thanks!
Here is a video on it. If you have flex section it is very easy, if you have hard copper to the tank you may need a plumber.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wibngZTcWs

Did this at my last house where we had a single 50G gas heater and teenagers that used all the hot water. New house has two 40G in series so never runs out.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by JackoC »

My Bradford White 50 gal natural gas, natural ventilation, $1100 including installation in 2014, NJ right across from Manhattan, is leaking around the relief valve connection (rust streaks down the side, though by marking over them I've noticed it isn't happening all the time) so I'm sizing up replacement. The successor model model is $800 uninstalled at an online plumbing supply place.
Previous costs were
2012: $950 (flooded by Superstorm Sandy later that year, started up again after it dried out, but that presumably explains the short life)
1998: $689
All were with the same 'reliable but not cheap' plumber.
s2kduff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by s2kduff »

maineminder wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:26 pm Got a leak.... Getting quotes for a 75g propane power vent hot water heater from $3000 to $4200 installed. These are rough quotes as I haven't actually had a technician actually look at what is required. 21yo water heater, so It's treated me well. Tankless, one rough quote was $5200.

Lowes has one I'd be interested in and they want $2109 for it plus installation and whatever else they charge.

Anyone else seeing these sorts of quotes? I read several of the old threads, and they seem to be 1/2 of what I'm seeing.

I really don't want to do it as I'm reading there have been quite a few code changes since 2001. Would much rather have it done correctly.

Ouch! Waiting for firm quotes.....
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
Topic Author
maineminder
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:48 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by maineminder »

s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by tortoise84 »

lazydavid wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:53 am This is not correct. The 12-year comes with a 3x larger anode rod--0.9" in diameter, vs. 0.5" in the 6-year. The input is just a dip tube, which can be easily confirmed by looking at the service diagram in the manual. Additionally, while Rheem sells lots of replacement anode rods through their parts site, not one of them is a combination anode/inlet.

Unfortunately all this is moot, as the anode is not actually removable. Neither I nor my plumber was able to break the new one loose using a breaker bar and a cheater pipe. I suppose I could try an impact gun, but my plumber suggested I just let it be, rather than risk damaging the tank. I'm not too worried about it at any rate, since I've never seen a tank failure, which is the usual mode of failure when the anode wears out. I've replaced burners, thermostats, gas valves, thermocouples, lots of things, but never had a tank break and start leaking. So the larger anode rod and longer warranty is enough peace of mind for me.
A good impact wrench will get the anode rod out in seconds, no sweat:

https://youtu.be/F6lfBpAJYQI

But be careful if your tank is already old because the anode rod might break off and drop into the tank.

The picture at the end of the video shows the original anode rod from my Rheem Performance 6 Year water heater, after 5 years of use, so it still had some material left. My previous water heater was an A.O.Smith ProMax that developed a slow leak after 8 years. It was also before I even knew about replacing the anode rod, so I had to just replace it with the Rheem.
s2kduff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by s2kduff »

maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
It is a water heater. Any reputable plumber will call it the same.

-s2kduff
Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by JackoC »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
s2kduff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by s2kduff »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
Disagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.

-s2kduff
s2kduff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by s2kduff »

JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
Disagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.

-s2kduff
I'm a retired plumber. I've worked with hundreds of great mechanics. Most of them concentrate on the sports page. Water heater installation isn't brain surgery.
Do you want tuna with good taste or tuna that tastes good.
s2kduff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by s2kduff »

Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:55 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
Disagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.

-s2kduff
I'm a retired plumber. I've worked with hundreds of great mechanics. Most of them concentrate on the sports page. Water heater installation isn't brain surgery.
Do you want tuna with good taste or tuna that tastes good.
Of course an appliance installation isn’t complicated, some folks DIY. Do you want a contractor that doesn’t even know basic terminology attempting this? I don’t. Displays lack of knowledge. Not unnoticed is you referring to the appliance as a water heater.

-s2kduff
JackoC
Posts: 4714
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by JackoC »

s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
My previous sentence *was* a split infinitive. IOW it's a joke son, or daughter, or as the case may be (I admit, a lame one). :happy
Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:18 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:55 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:01 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm

What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation CHG.
Disagree completely. This is not grammar, it is correct terminology. A contractor that does not know even basic terminology should always be eliminated. It shows their knowledge of the trade.

-s2kduff
I'm a retired plumber. I've worked with hundreds of great mechanics. Most of them concentrate on the sports page. Water heater installation isn't brain surgery.
Do you want tuna with good taste or tuna that tastes good.
Of course an appliance installation isn’t complicated, some folks DIY. Do you want a contractor that doesn’t even know basic terminology attempting this? I don’t. Displays lack of knowledge. Not unnoticed is you referring to the appliance as a water heater.

-s2kduff
You can do whatever you want with your money. I'll take plain mustard when that's all the specs require. Have a good day.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Valuethinker »

jharkin wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:27 am With an end of life unit that is running on propane I would take a hard look at the new heat pump water heaters. Will be cheaper to operate at current energy prices and a lot of jurisdictions offer utility rebates etc on the install....
Good advice. I believe HP hot water heaters may be less reliable (more complex) but I don't know if there is any actual data on that (as opposed to anecdotal).

There are places in USA where electricity is so expensive this may just not work. I am thinking Connecticut in particular and also California.

Natural gas is the fuel at the margin of US power generation ie the last kwhr generated & consumed. Thus the gas price tends to set the power price (with a lag) in deregulated wholesale markets which can then get passed through to the consumer.

A relative is in a situation where a 3rd party owns the hot water tank & heater (this is not uncommon, at least where they live). Main impact is that the utility can turn off the water heater during periods of high electricity demand-- the "smart grid" 60 years before the smart grid, if you will. This has never been a problem, even w there were 2 teenagers in the house.

So that's another consideration. Time of Use (ToU) tariffs are increasingly common and so the hot water tank needs to be big enough to meet typical evening needs (it usually is sized that way anyhow).

On the good news, if one installs home solar PV, one can heat up the water during the daytime for essentially free using one's own electricity.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Valuethinker »

JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Did it work then, really? :happy

(apparently there is no actual rule against split infinitives. 'nout wrong with "To boldly go".

https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=25076

(just googled that, not vouching for its accuracy)
jharkin
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Location: Boston suburbs

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by jharkin »

Valuethinker wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:07 am
jharkin wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:27 am With an end of life unit that is running on propane I would take a hard look at the new heat pump water heaters. Will be cheaper to operate at current energy prices and a lot of jurisdictions offer utility rebates etc on the install....
There are places in USA where electricity is so expensive this may just not work. I am thinking Connecticut in particular and also California.
I dont think electricity is expensive enough to price out propane anywhere except maybe in Hawaii. My dad lives in CT and his electric (under 20 cents) is cheaper than mine in Mass (almost 23 cents). By comparison Propane is over $3 a gallon here.

1 gallon of propane = 91,000 BTU. So at $3 you get 30 kBTU/gal. No propane heater is 100% efficient so guess that a propane water heater is good for maybe 25 kBTU/$ net.

1 kWh of electric resistance heat is 3413 BTU. So at $0.20 you get 17 kBTU/$ for electric resistance.

At that math, a HPHWH only needs a COP (energy factor) of ~1.5 to be cost equivalent with propane. A quick google search show that many of them have COPs over 3 as long as they don't fall back to resistance heat.

Now if natural gas is available, the math probably doesn't work... but the OP clearly stated propane.
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

lazydavid wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:48 am
criticalmass wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Bradford Whites are designed for plumber profits, not consumers or homeowners.
Agreed. So who's your choice? There are only three. If you also have an objection to AO Smith, there is literally no tank water heater you can permit yourself to buy.
I replace anodes instead of tanks.
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:17 pm
No such thing as a hot water heater, and if a plumber you get a quote from calls it a hot water heater, eliminate them.

-s2kduff
What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
My hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.
User avatar
flossy21
Posts: 555
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 2:04 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by flossy21 »

maineminder wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:21 pm
surfstar wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:13 pm 75-g is huge

If you actually need that size, I'd think the tankless would pay for itself in efficiency, right? Any gas/city/etc rebates for that route also?

We're in an ultra-low nox required area, and I found a Rheem 40g for under $700 last year, that also qualified for a utility rebate of $75 or so. DIY - hope that was my last DIY, though! (12 year warranty)
We currently have a 50g that can't properly fill a jet tub in the master bath. I tried to convince the builder it was inadequate, but he insisted it would be fine. To use the tub I need to crank up the temp on the hot water heater.

Getting mixed opinions from the installers. One won't even install it. One claims I'll run out of hot water when I run out of propane. Go figure.....

The bigger units are pricey and the 30' run to the outside wall isn't helping.
If the only reason you are buying the bigger tank unit is to have enough water for the tub then you could look at putting an in-line heater in the tub. My wife complained about the jacuzzi water getting cold when she took a bath so I installed one of these on the water circulation line on the tub. As long as the water is flowing through the jets then the heater is heating the water. It plugs into a standard outlet.

https://www.amazon.com/Jacuzzi-Inline-W ... UTF8&psc=1
tdm757
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:10 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by tdm757 »

tdm757 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:47 pm NJ MCOL/HCOL area. Got plumber off of local Facebook group. Picked up $1,024 75 gal nat gas hot water heater at home Depot with plumber. Not direct vent. Installed for about $500 to $600. Direct replacement. I paid for materials from local plumbing supply and helped get new one in basement. Labor was about $100/hr and he said his standard rate was 5 hours.
I would further add to have your plumber crack loose the anode rod and lightly tighten (Rheem has a separate one from the inlet) when installing the new hot water heater so easy to replace when needed. I have experienced two hot water heater failures with catastrophic water leakage, once myself and a close friend. All in the 8-12 year range. I now regularly drain and replace anode rods. Rheem, Bradford White and AO Smith I all consider about the same. The Rheem and AO Smith I am familiar with have a separate anode rod.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by lazydavid »

criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:02 am
lazydavid wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:48 am
criticalmass wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:46 am Bradford Whites are designed for plumber profits, not consumers or homeowners.
Agreed. So who's your choice? There are only three. If you also have an objection to AO Smith, there is literally no tank water heater you can permit yourself to buy.
I replace anodes instead of tanks.
And I've never had a tank failure, yet have had to replace water heaters (the one I replaced last year was made in 1998). At which point you have to buy something.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49017
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Valuethinker »

jharkin wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:48 am
Valuethinker wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:07 am
jharkin wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:27 am With an end of life unit that is running on propane I would take a hard look at the new heat pump water heaters. Will be cheaper to operate at current energy prices and a lot of jurisdictions offer utility rebates etc on the install....
There are places in USA where electricity is so expensive this may just not work. I am thinking Connecticut in particular and also California.
I dont think electricity is expensive enough to price out propane anywhere except maybe in Hawaii. My dad lives in CT and his electric (under 20 cents) is cheaper than mine in Mass (almost 23 cents). By comparison Propane is over $3 a gallon here.

1 gallon of propane = 91,000 BTU. So at $3 you get 30 kBTU/gal. No propane heater is 100% efficient so guess that a propane water heater is good for maybe 25 kBTU/$ net.

1 kWh of electric resistance heat is 3413 BTU. So at $0.20 you get 17 kBTU/$ for electric resistance.

At that math, a HPHWH only needs a COP (energy factor) of ~1.5 to be cost equivalent with propane. A quick google search show that many of them have COPs over 3 as long as they don't fall back to resistance heat.

Now if natural gas is available, the math probably doesn't work... but the OP clearly stated propane.
Right. Thank you. Your calculations make sense (and I probably could have run through them myself if I'd thought about it more).

An additional "good thing" is that electricity prices don't fluctuate with world oil prices but propane prices do. (caveat: mine do. The marginal plant on the UK system and about half of total energy generated is gas-fired; to an extent European gas supply prices are set by oil prices. And vice versa - superhigh natural gas prices have driven fuel oil prices up, because for some generators and industrial users, petroleum is now cheaper than NG).

I had mentally pencilled in a HW heater as having COP of c 2.0 (to be conservative). It really would be a cold air input source if COP was 1.0 (electric bar).

A close relative is in North America, and very un-modern electric heating has always provided her hot water. Without excessive cost or problem. But Heat Pump is future (price) proofing.
s2kduff
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:13 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by s2kduff »

criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 am
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm
maineminder wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:32 pm

What's the correct term then?
water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
My hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.
Just because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.

https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf

-s2kduff
Pinotage
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:02 am
Location: Springfield

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Pinotage »

Mugatu wrote:Those water heaters are so hot right now.
https://www.thehotwaterheaterguys.com/
Californiastate
Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:52 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

s2kduff wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 pm
criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 am
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm

water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
My hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.
Just because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.

https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf

-s2kduff
https://www.raypak.com/boilers-and-wate ... w-heaters/

Raypak calls their product a hot water heater. Would you dismiss all of their products for cause?
Topic Author
maineminder
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:48 am

Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by maineminder »

To bring this to a close I went with a 50g propane power vent professional Rheem water heater. Total cost wound up being $2600 including the first service call. I had 4 quotes, the highest being $3600. The next highest over the $2600 was $3100. The company that installed it is one of the larger heating and plumbing companies in the area so I was ok with going with the lowest bid. 2 guys spent just about 3 hours installing it. I found the unit online for about $1700.

Turns out the leak in the tank was actually near the threads of the relief valve that connect it to a tank. Not sure if it could have been fixed, but I figured it was time to replace it anyway. The repair guy didn't seem too interested in trying to fix a 21 year old heater.

Some responses on some of the excellent comments I got (Thank You!):

I was entertaining an instant water heater but the entire house is done with 1/2" black iron. Inadequate for a Rinnai based on what I read in the installation manual. One guy said that would be in addition to the $5200 he quoted me. (He was the $3600 quote also on a Rheem). All the appliances that need heat are propane with the exception of the dishwasher. Pretty clear this guy just plain didn't want the job.

Never really considered the heat pump route. Would have saved me money, but I'm not sure there was enough space to install it anyway.

The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.

The thermostatic mixing valve was an interesting discussion as the installer had never heard of it. I asked for a quote to install it and explained what it did. He discussed it with his boss, and his boss said it wouldn't increase the amount of 120 degree hot water, so I don't know why you'd need it. I gave up, didn't ask a second question and didn't get a quote. Fortunately the connections are braided, so I can just do it myself.

They made a hell of mess, needed some of my tools and had an inadequate pump to purge the old tank. It took nearly 2 hours to drain the tank so they could lift it out of the 1/2 flight of stairs to the outside. Nope, no hand truck either.

I say this was an interesting experience at many levels. The two guys here were clearly new to the business. I don't know what training they had.

Again, thank you all for your input. After watching what they did, this would certainly be a job I could have done as no code modifications were required. But, I didn't know that, they brought it, installed it and took it all away!
criticalmass
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

maineminder wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
That's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"

I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to lesrn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.

But I don't sell new water heaters....
criticalmass
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

s2kduff wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 pm
criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 am
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
Californiastate wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:50 pm

water heater

It doesn't mean anything. You'd be a fool to filter contractors by grammar. You want somebody to install your water heater. You aren't looking for a dissertation.
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
My hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.
Just because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.

https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf

-s2kduff
Irregardless, my hot water heater keeps it hot too. A mute point, as it works great.
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maineminder
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by maineminder »

criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:56 pm
maineminder wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
That's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"

I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to lesrn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.

But I don't sell new water heaters....
I just read the owners manual and in the maintenance section it says inspect the anode annually. You can see the top of the anode nut in a recessed area right on the top of the tank. :happy
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:56 pm
maineminder wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
That's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"

I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to lesrn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.

But I don't sell new water heaters....
Don't forget to explain to the neophyte how you backed it up. You shouldn't just slip on a socket with a 2' breaker bar and turn. You'll torque the whole water heater and damage other connections.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed several off-topic posts. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
At all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
criticalmass
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

Californiastate wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:22 pm
criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:56 pm
maineminder wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:22 pm The lead guy that did the install has been in the business for 3 years and has never replaced an anode in a water heater. His comment is they don't do it because it's too hard.
That's the most amusing comment of the day. If he never did it, how did he determine it's "too hard?"

I've replaced many anodes with nothing more than a 1 1/16" socket and a torque wrench. I guess I never went to plumbing school to learn it's too hard for me to do. Takes maybe 5 minutes in addition to sediment flush.

But I don't sell new water heaters....
Don't forget to explain to the neophyte how you backed it up. You shouldn't just slip on a socket with a 2' breaker bar and turn. You'll torque the whole water heater and damage other connections.
Easily. I keep the tank full as static weight and nothing is damaged. No need for a 2’ breaker bar or to over torque. Brace the tank if necessary.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Silverado »

criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:01 pm
s2kduff wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:32 pm
criticalmass wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:05 am
s2kduff wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm
JackoC wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:57 pm
I've eliminated contractors for split infinitives and it seems to really work for me. :happy
Trade knowledge and grammar are mutually exclusive. As a reference, ending a sentence with a preposition on a quote is perfectly acceptable; calling a water heater a hot water heater shows lack of trade knowledge. Hire whomever you please.

-s2kduff
My hot water heater can heat cold water AND hot water (hotter). Trade knowledge has advanced to reflect new developments like this.
Just because you state something doesn’t make it true. Water is heated and kept hot by a water heater.

https://www.asse-plumbing.org/media/223 ... _6thed.pdf

-s2kduff
Irregardless, my hot water heater keeps it hot too. A mute point, as it works great.
Ouch, too far…

At the price from the OP, i may be tempted to find a hot water heater if ours goes out. Where does one fence a water heater these days?
toofache32
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by toofache32 »

Like everything else, it costs what it costs. Get multiple estimates. Figure out where you want the split between cost and quality. For some people, everything is deemed expensive.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by FandangoDave5010 »

The total cost for replacement and installation of a 50 gal. propane Bradford White water heater in the North Pacific area (Reno, NV) in Sept., 2021 was $2857. Labor cost was about 2/3 of water heater cost, as mentioned earlier as a good rule of thumb. I did not get other quotes since the price seemed reasonable and the plumbing company was eager to do the job on short notice.

Home repairp rices so not seem out of line to me. What I don't understand are some of the dental charges for procedures such as "root canal therapy" that my dental insurance does not cover. That of course is another thread/topic.
criticalmass
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

maineminder wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:43 pm
Kenkat wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:37 pm I am not necessarily recommending this but I never replaced the anode on my old water heater and only drained it a couple of times and it lasted 23 years. Just lucky I guess.
Same with me and it lasted 21 years. I guess we don't have hard water.
Anode corrosion is dependent on several factors, especially water quality/purity. When the less noble anode rod is gone, any exposed tank steel becomes the anode instead. How long that takes varies, but the warranty length provides an idea of the manufacturer's estimated worst case.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

2.5 years ago I had a plumber install this one:

Bradford White; 50 gal. Tall 40 MBH Potable Water and Residential Natural Gas Water Heater

$1600 with installation (included a new pan and code upgrade).

Works great.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

What is the recovery rate? Is it the same as your previous unit? Does it have the same maximum btu rating? This could also happen if the dip tube broke off inside the tank.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by criticalmass »

madbrain wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:42 am
wilked wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:59 am Drain off 5 gallons carefully. Check the water - any sediment / debris? What is the temp of the water coming out (use a meat thermometer or similar). Does the temp match the setting on the unit?
So, I drained 5 gallons from the release valve into a Lowe's bucket. There was no sediment. The water was clear.
Release valve meaning drain valve at bottom of tank, or the high temp/pressure relief valve? The latter won’t drain much sediment. You need to drain sediment from the bottom.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

madbrain wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:21 am
Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:12 pm What is the recovery rate? Is it the same as your previous unit? Does it have the same maximum btu rating? This could also happen if the dip tube broke off inside the tank.
It's the same exact model, AO Smith GCN 75 100 . I just checked the new label and compared against the picture of the old label. BTU is 75100 on both.
Recovery rate is listed as 72.82 on the old one, and 73 on the new one. Thank you very much for helping !

Why would the dip tube be broken on a brand new unit ? Poor QA ? Issue during transport ?
Who knows? I've just heard of it happening from the service crew on rare occurrences.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Bengineer »

mb, what are the chances the water heater is plumbed backwards? Cold water should feed in the thru the dip tube to the bottom of the tank, hot water pulled off the top.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by wilked »

Bengineer wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:52 am mb, what are the chances the water heater is plumbed backwards? Cold water should feed in the thru the dip tube to the bottom of the tank, hot water pulled off the top.
Good thought
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by teCh0010 »

wilked wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:05 am
madbrain wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:21 am
Californiastate wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:12 pm What is the recovery rate? Is it the same as your previous unit? Does it have the same maximum btu rating? This could also happen if the dip tube broke off inside the tank.
It's the same exact model, AO Smith GCN 75 100 . I just checked the new label and compared against the picture of the old label. BTU is 75100 on both.
Recovery rate is listed as 72.82 on the old one, and 73 on the new one. Thank you very much for helping !

Why would the dip tube be broken on a brand new unit ? Poor QA ? Issue during transport ?
Sounds like the dip tube to me.

One way to test it. Same experiment, but instead of filling a tub fill something (basement sink?) via hose connected to bottom drain of water heater (with appropriate fittings). If you get a different response than your tub it has to be the dip tube.

The water in the tank at the beginning of your previous experiment won’t be different temps at different levels, especially if it’s been idle for a period - it’s one temperature. That said, once you start dispensing water fresh (cold) water is added to the top, introducing a temp gradient. If you’re not pulling off the bottom (ie dip tube failure) you’ll see the response you got in your bathtub.
I was thinking dip tube as well when reading the issue.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by lazydavid »

madbrain wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:11 pm That wasn't the case. It's plumbed exactly the same way the old one way. Checked the pictures I took of the old one.
Maybe it was assembled backwards at the factory. There's really no difference between the input and the output fittings other than the length of pipe that's supposed to be beneath them.
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by wilked »

madbrain wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:23 pm
wilked wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:05 am One way to test it. Same experiment, but instead of filling a tub fill something (basement sink?) via hose connected to bottom drain of water heater (with appropriate fittings). If you get a different response than your tub it has to be the dip tube.
No basement here in California :) This 75 gallon water heater only serves one bathroom, which is located upstairs, with the 3 shower heads, the roman tub, and double sink faucets. I believe its main purpose is to be able to fill the large roman tub. The rest of the house, which has 3.5 bathrooms, kitchen, and a bar, runs fine on a 50 gallon water heater. Of course, there are only 2 of us living in the house. The 3 cats don't use hot water.
The water in the tank at the beginning of your previous experiment won’t be different temps at different levels, especially if it’s been idle for a period - it’s one temperature. That said, once you start dispensing water fresh (cold) water is added to the top, introducing a temp gradient. If you’re not pulling off the bottom (ie dip tube failure) you’ll see the response you got in your bathtub.
So, the installer came back this afternoon. He is still here. He tested at my roman tub and saw a temperature drop from 119 to 112 in 5 minutes.
He also tested temperature at the drain at the bottom of the water heater. It started around 119 and dropped to 117 in 10 minutes.
He wanted to blame my plumbing, saying it's probably the thermostatic valves in my old faucets mixing cold water causing the drop. I wasn't having any of it. Too much of a coincidence for them to fail the same day the new water heater was installed.
I wanted him to rule out my plumbing, so I had him hookup the hose to the outlet of the the water heater. With the rate set to a comparable gpm as my tub faucet, we saw a drop from 122 to 112 within 10 minutes. So, finally, my plumbing was ruled out.
Installer thinks if it was the dip tube, the temperature drop would be much more than 10 degrees in 10 minutes. So, as of now, the cause of the temperature drop is not known.
The thermostat has been identified as one problem. It shouldn't be off by more than 10 degrees. On the B setting, temperature should be at 140. It's off by 21 degrees at the bottom drain, and off by 18 degrees at the top.
Installer checked gas pressure, saying it drops to 5.4 and the minimum for the unit is 6. But the old unit had the exact same minimum, according to the picture of the label I kept.
This will definitely not be fixed today as there is no new thermostat or replacement unit on the truck ...
There is a range between total dip tube failure and “slight crack” in diptube. Diptube should be removable, albeit he will have to cut the copper. I’d set some sort of timetable and say if not fixed by X get a new unit in
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Re: Have water heaters and installation gotten this out of hand?

Post by Californiastate »

Your local utility company should be able to come out to verify your natural gas pressure at your meter and appliance. I know PG&E used to do it for free. IIRC the CPUC mandates a pressure range of 6" to 8" wc for natural gas. Your 5.4"wc doesn't sound bad at all at the appliance under load. Your owners manual should detail the requirements.

Before I retired, I would contact the factory rep when an appliance, fixture or piece of equipment didn't seem to be operation correctly.
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