Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

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jplee3
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Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

Hey all,

So I just discovered that there's a rat or mouse hole behind the Subzero fridge in our kitchen. I knew they were nesting under it but didn't notice the hole until I looked more carefully. We did have the place fumigated, and hopefully nothing died behind the walls, but we haven't been smelling any foul odors other than a faint smell of persistent rat urine/droppings that is likely due to the places we couldn't reach (e.g. behind fridge).

I'd really like to pull the fridge out and clean the area behind it but I don't know that I'll be able to do it. The thing is HUGE (48x84x24) and seems like a beast to remove let alone move. I tried turning the feet with a small wrench but it's really stuck in place - the feet look slightly rusted too.
Aside from that, they say to empty the fridge and pull the doors off before you remove it. All this just to get behind and patch the hole(s) and clean the rat infested area up.

The fridge is 17 years old btw... I'm wondering if we should just pay to it removed and get a brand new fridge that's also smaller form factor and eventually remodel that side of the kitchen (adding more shelving/cabinets) to get more usable space out of it.

The other option of course is just to not do anything and live with the knowledge that it wasn't fully cleaned up or patched, put the metal toe kick back on and try to seal the gaps so nothing can get in. I don't know how much more life this fridge has but perhaps just get rid of it once something happens and we have to get a new fridge anyway? Of course, I've had an old fridge die on me before and it's not fun either since half the time you don't find out until it's too late and all or most of the food in it has spoiled.
shunkman
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by shunkman »

This seems like it should be an easy decision for most people. I would immediately replace the behemoth fridge and get something that is more manageable and movable when need be. I could not sleep well at night wondering if the rodents were still there or when they might return.
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jplee3
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

It's a 24" counter depth fridge with framing built around it. We would likely have to tear the framing out and end up remodeling around whatever new fridge we put in. Including redoing the flooring under in which case they left the previous original tile (which is installed over laminate) for the subzero fridge to slide over. I guess they were lazy and or wanted to save money so left the old tile in place figuring why bother if the fridge is going to cover it up.

In short there's going to be scope creep with remodeling if we replace this with something smaller... Unless we want to live with the smaller fridge revealing ugly flooring and awkward gaps/voids where the big fridge was previously.

This is what we are dealing with:

Image
Image
123
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by 123 »

Can you access the area behind the Subzero fridge through the other size of the wall behind it? It may be easier to cut, patch, and paint drywall on an interior wall then deal with moving the fridge. Depends on what's on the other side of the wall.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Sandtrap »

123 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:14 pm Can you access the area behind the Subzero fridge through the other size of the wall behind it? It may be easier to cut, patch, and paint drywall on an interior wall then deal with moving the fridge. Depends on what's on the other side of the wall.
+1
While you are at it install an access panel to the back of the frig innards for future surgeries.

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jabberwockOG
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jabberwockOG »

It would not be that hard to remodel the frig and cabinetry starting from left edge of the frig. A new 36 inch french door cabinet depth frig would likely have same or slightly deeper footprint. And adding additional 24 inch base cabinets could have toe kick shimmed and installed to hide the new tile install over old time. We have a cabinet depth 36 inch GE Cafe frig with french doors and really like it.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-Profile-22- ... 5001758825
HomeStretch
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by HomeStretch »

It’s probably best to pull the refrigerator out to thoroughly clean behind it and patch the access hole. You are also going to want to check whether the mice made it into the insulation in the back of the refrigerator or surrounding cabinets.

I had a mouse nest in the back innards of an outdoor Viking undercounter fridge. The innards were soaked with mouse urine and droppings. I had to get rid of it.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by stan1 »

To me that fridge seems way out of proportion to the size and level of finish in the rest of the kitchen.

I'd agree with buying a standard 36" counter depth fridge. At 17 years old the Sub-Zero is nearing end of life and replacing it will be very, very expensive.

The cabinet materials look to be pretty standard. I'd consider having a cabinet maker or remodeler come in and give you space for a 36" fridge and a pantry unit, including replacing the little dresser-like cabinet to the right of the fridge. Cost of this plus the new fridge should be less than the cost of a replacement Sub-Zero. Biggest challenge might be finding a cabinet maker willing to do a small job, but you'll eventually find someone who will do it.
Mr. Rumples
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Mr. Rumples »

The choices are to replace, remove and put back or live with the smell. The latter, I would hope, is off the list. Just wondering what the energy efficiency is for a new 'frig and if that might offset some of the costs.

https://www.cleanenergyresourceteams.or ... energy-hog

Hopefully, the holes to get into the house are found before more critters try to make their way in as it gets cold.
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Normchad
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Normchad »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pm
123 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:14 pm Can you access the area behind the Subzero fridge through the other size of the wall behind it? It may be easier to cut, patch, and paint drywall on an interior wall then deal with moving the fridge. Depends on what's on the other side of the wall.
+1
While you are at it install an access panel to the back of the frig innards for future surgeries.

j🌺
This is what I would do too. It will actually allow you to clean abut inside the wall as well. And of course seal everything up.
tenkuky
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by tenkuky »

jplee3 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:39 pm It's a 24" counter depth fridge with framing built around it. We would likely have to tear the framing out and end up remodeling around whatever new fridge we put in. Including redoing the flooring under in which case they left the previous original tile (which is installed over laminate) for the subzero fridge to slide over. I guess they were lazy and or wanted to save money so left the old tile in place figuring why bother if the fridge is going to cover it up.

In short there's going to be scope creep with remodeling if we replace this with something smaller... Unless we want to live with the smaller fridge revealing ugly flooring and awkward gaps/voids where the big fridge was previously.

This is what we are dealing with:

Image
Image
Holy smokes!
Is this how tidy you keep your kitchen?
Or is this a stock pic? 😝
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bampf
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by bampf »

Normchad wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:19 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pm
123 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:14 pm Can you access the area behind the Subzero fridge through the other size of the wall behind it? It may be easier to cut, patch, and paint drywall on an interior wall then deal with moving the fridge. Depends on what's on the other side of the wall.
+1
While you are at it install an access panel to the back of the frig innards for future surgeries.

j🌺
This is what I would do too. It will actually allow you to clean abut inside the wall as well. And of course seal everything up.
A little wainscoting and off you go...
Nescio
pizzy
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by pizzy »

tenkuky wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:23 pm
jplee3 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:39 pm It's a 24" counter depth fridge with framing built around it. We would likely have to tear the framing out and end up remodeling around whatever new fridge we put in. Including redoing the flooring under in which case they left the previous original tile (which is installed over laminate) for the subzero fridge to slide over. I guess they were lazy and or wanted to save money so left the old tile in place figuring why bother if the fridge is going to cover it up.

In short there's going to be scope creep with remodeling if we replace this with something smaller... Unless we want to live with the smaller fridge revealing ugly flooring and awkward gaps/voids where the big fridge was previously.

This is what we are dealing with:

Image
Image
Holy smokes!
Is this how tidy you keep your kitchen?
Or is this a stock pic? 😝
These look like listing pics

And would be wrong month on calendar.
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ResearchMed
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by ResearchMed »

pizzy wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:27 pm
tenkuky wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:23 pm
jplee3 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:39 pm It's a 24" counter depth fridge with framing built around it. We would likely have to tear the framing out and end up remodeling around whatever new fridge we put in. Including redoing the flooring under in which case they left the previous original tile (which is installed over laminate) for the subzero fridge to slide over. I guess they were lazy and or wanted to save money so left the old tile in place figuring why bother if the fridge is going to cover it up.

In short there's going to be scope creep with remodeling if we replace this with something smaller... Unless we want to live with the smaller fridge revealing ugly flooring and awkward gaps/voids where the big fridge was previously.

This is what we are dealing with:

Image
Image
Holy smokes!
Is this how tidy you keep your kitchen?
Or is this a stock pic? 😝
These look like listing pics
Nah.
Just do NOT open those cabinets, or the 2-week old bread, some damp dishtowels, and some dirty soup bowls will be the first things to tumble out...

:twisted:

RM
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Sandtrap
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Sandtrap »

Normchad wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:19 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pm
123 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:14 pm Can you access the area behind the Subzero fridge through the other size of the wall behind it? It may be easier to cut, patch, and paint drywall on an interior wall then deal with moving the fridge. Depends on what's on the other side of the wall.
+1
While you are at it install an access panel to the back of the frig innards for future surgeries.

j🌺
This is what I would do too. It will actually allow you to clean abut inside the wall as well. And of course seal everything up.
+1
If it's a load bearing wall, you can header it up 2-3feet from the floor or whatever you need so you'll have double the 14.5 inch between the studs. If non load bearing, you can still header it but only what you need to install the access panel. Access panels are sold that have a lip that goes on the studs or whatver size you want. Then trim out and paint. It can be a lot easier than trying to finish the drywall you tore out and patched. So, measure for the access panel that you have in hand, then cut accordingly.

j :D
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Topic Author
jplee3
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

Trying to remove this fridge is going to be a pain in the rear... the thing weighs at least 500lbs. I don't know how I could possibly DIY it. Trying to find someone who will do it seems equally as impossible or difficult :(

The dining room is on the other side of the wall of that fridge, so it would look a little strange putting an access panel back there unless we covered it with a side table/buffet perhaps. I don't think the wife would approve though.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed. I'm already overwhelmed from the initial rat issue - in fact, I thought I was seeing light at the end of the tunnel with that as I was cleaning things up fairly well, thinking the smell had diminished a lot. It has but there's still something lingering.

I'm pretty tired from all of this...
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by psteinx »

I'd be surprised if the adjoining cabinetry (left and right) is built RIGHT up to the fridge. The trim pieces at the front of that cabinetry (i.e. the ~2" wide vertical wood boards), maybe, but probably not all of the cabinetry.

You should probably be able to pry off those two trim pieces without doing too much damage to them.

I can't quit tell what's on top - if that metal is part of the fridge or some sort of separate removable vent. Hopefully the latter. In any case, you'll ideally also want an inch or two on top.

Then, with 2 people, give the fridge a little bit of an UPWARD lift and scootch - maybe even backwards if needed, just to break the feet free from whatever stickiness they're in.

Then "walk" the fridge out, by scooting it a little forward and left, then a little forward and right, and so on. You may want to put a piece of cardboard where you're planning to scootch the fridge to, both to protect the floor and to enable the fridge to move/slide better, once you get it going.

Really, your fridge very likely wants some ventillation - separation from the surrounding elements, ESPECIALLY at the back, so air can circulate and the condenser is not overstressed. I wonder if this fridge was installed more with design/aesthetics in mind than efficiency/reliability...

IIRC, I saw our fridge repair guy do this, by himself, to our more standard (but still big) fridge... (Albeit, not nearly as tightly packed in as yours). I was intimidated by the fridge, but I think the guy did the side rock and scootch by himself. (He was a big guy, but still...) He basically opened the fridge doors a little and just lifted on them/used them as handles/leverage. Seemed maybe not ideal for the doors, but they took it OK. For your fridge, probably at least a 2 person job, but doable, I suspect.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Sandtrap »

Mr. Rumples wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:07 pm The choices are to replace, remove and put back or live with the smell. The latter, I would hope, is off the list. Just wondering what the energy efficiency is for a new 'frig and if that might offset some of the costs.

https://www.cleanenergyresourceteams.or ... energy-hog

Hopefully, the holes to get into the house are found before more critters try to make their way in as it gets cold.
Great points.
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4nursebee
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by 4nursebee »

For the OP, just what is the problem you want help with?
Mice, holes, or fridge?
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by shunkman »

Maybe that saying "paralysis by analysis" applies here? Get a new fridge delivered and set it up somewhere temporarily, even the dining room will do. Then, do what ever it takes to get the Subzero out of there. Once it is gone and you have resolved the rodent issues, you can decide what the next steps should be.
HomeStretch
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by HomeStretch »

Consider calling:
1) a local mover to move the fridge temporarily to another area while you clean and repair the damage, and
2) SubZero mfr customer service to ask their advice as to whether mice nest in the innards of your model refrigerator and whether an authorized SubZero repair person can take the back off to assess if there are any nests. In my case noted above, it was readily apparent to the repair person that the Viking refrigerator was extensively damaged by mice nesting. There was no way to replace the saturated insulation.

If you are committed to replacing the refrigerator in any case, then just replace it (and the small cabinet to the right of it) and make the carpentry changes. You will have a lot of room on the right of the refrigerator to add a pantry cabinet or a nice coffee/beverage bar set-up,
Mr. Rumples
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Mr. Rumples »

Options after removal; start here perhaps:

https://www.hometalk.com/29783056/q-cam ... -in-fridge

https://www.amazinginteriordesign.com/h ... ur-fridge/

Perhaps molding and glass shelves for wine glasses and such.

One option is to call a custom kitchen design/installation store to see what and whom they recommend. This might be a weekend job for one of their folks.
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Shallowpockets
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Shallowpockets »

How did you discover the hole? Seems like the discovery would not be possible per your described inability to access the hole to attend to it.
Maybe some expanding foam with a long straw to reach it.
Globalviewer58
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Globalviewer58 »

You can see the steps to remove a sub-zero built in refrigerator on YouYube videos. If that is more than you can DIY, sub-zero website has a service locator by zip code to help you find qualified technicians to perform the work. Another option is to call sub-zero and ask for technical help. Good luck!
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by ZMonet »

I know Viking built-in refrigerators have wheels that engage once you lower the refrigerator feet. Maybe put some WD-40 on the feet if you're having trouble turning because of rust. Also try using a ratchet. When my repair guy moved mine, he used a 2x4 to get leverage. If it doesn't have wheels, you might be able to put those plastic sliders underneath it to move it out, or at least get some cardboard under it.

I know those things are beasts! We eventually removed ours. I was able to get it out by lowering onto the wheels and "walking" it out. You can lighten the thing substantially by removing the doors. I made a surround for the new fridge so that we could go with a more standard, and MUCH cheaper, cabinet-depth fridge. The replacement wasn't as tall so I built some cabinets to go over the fridge.
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jplee3
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

Shallowpockets wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:18 am How did you discover the hole? Seems like the discovery would not be possible per your described inability to access the hole to attend to it.
Maybe some expanding foam with a long straw to reach it.
I had to put my face nearly flush to the ground in order to see the bottom rim of the hole - it's very discrete. We didn't move anything out of the way. The only thing was that I had to remove the metal toe kick from the bottom of the fridge in order to even see under (and also clean as much as possible).

I found a company who can move and reinstall the fridge for $300 - I think we may just go that route. The bigger concern is what else we're going to find back there (e.g. a bigger hole, infestation in the wall, etc) and also figuring out what to do about the flooring that the fridge was sitting on. I'm not keen on the idea of that fridge sitting on the newer tile for an extended period of time while we're working to clean the area behind it too - I'd be worried about that tile getting cracked...
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ResearchMed
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by ResearchMed »

jplee3 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:42 am
Shallowpockets wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:18 am How did you discover the hole? Seems like the discovery would not be possible per your described inability to access the hole to attend to it.
Maybe some expanding foam with a long straw to reach it.
I had to put my face nearly flush to the ground in order to see the bottom rim of the hole - it's very discrete. We didn't move anything out of the way. The only thing was that I had to remove the metal toe kick from the bottom of the fridge in order to even see under (and also clean as much as possible).

I found a company who can move and reinstall the fridge for $300 - I think we may just go that route. The bigger concern is what else we're going to find back there (e.g. a bigger hole, infestation in the wall, etc) and also figuring out what to do about the flooring that the fridge was sitting on. I'm not keen on the idea of that fridge sitting on the newer tile for an extended period of time while we're working to clean the area behind it too - I'd be worried about that tile getting cracked...
Put some plywood down on the tiles in front of the fridge, and have the movers GENTLY PLACE the fridge there. Let them know you don't want it to be a sliding move, but a lift and gently put down.
With a lift device (slip it under fridge, tilt, wheel it back type of thing) they shouldn't have trouble as long as they know they'll need something like that.
Now, that assumes there is enough clearance there for a slight "tilt". Is there? Can that vent be removed, and if so, is there then some extra clearance? That shelf above might be a problem.
Or ask the movers in advance if/how they can handle this.

This is done (probably with thicker plywood!) when heavy equipment needs to go on/over hand-laid pavers in a driveway, for example.
(It works.)

RM
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JBTX
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by JBTX »

As to the fridge, you may be able to replace it with side by side fridge freezer units that are made to look as one unit. This is what we did and is considerably cheaper than these massive high end units.

frigidaire professional refrigerator fpru19f8rfc

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shop ... K-pKY2lhjR
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by mkc »

psteinx wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:59 pm
I can't quit tell what's on top - if that metal is part of the fridge or some sort of separate removable vent. Hopefully the latter. In any case, you'll ideally also want an inch or two on top.

Really, your fridge very likely wants some ventillation - separation from the surrounding elements, ESPECIALLY at the back, so air can circulate and the condenser is not overstressed. I wonder if this fridge was installed more with design/aesthetics in mind than efficiency/reliability...
Built-in fridges like this have everything at the top behind that metal panel. They do not need ventilation at the back. Flip up that panel and you'll see compressor, coils, control boards, etc.

Note regarding remodeling - a counter depth freestanding (not built-in) fridge will have about a 24" deep case plus doors (and rear ventilation space), so it will stick out a few inches past the counter. A standard depth 36" wide fridge will have close to the same capacity as that SZ, but will stick out more than a few inches. Many folks who go standard depth recess the back wall, but that won't be an option with the dining room behind.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by crefwatch »

Those two photos have a very professional look to them. Did you take them, or are they from the appliance maker?

I ask because if your kitchen looks remotely like the photos, you may wish to ask yourself (or a sister-in-law who's a real estate agent) if potential buyers for this home are expecting the full Mini-Mansion "look". If you put in a smaller (but large) 36" refrigerator, even if you spend money on carpentry dress-up, the kitchen may look like it was owned for a few years by someone who had no money.

Don't take that personally - and don't provide personal information. I'm just pointing out that your (apparent) reluctance to hire a professional to do the job at the level it currently is done means you will not have the "same" kitchen when you are finished. It might help your sense of alarm if you go up to your attic, and search unfinished parts of your basement (?) for other evidence of minor rodent infestation. It's not exactly unheard of in suburbia, let alone rural living. Every fall, when it gets cold, the mice that co-exist with our non-huntable deer population look for a warm place for the coming winter. You need an ongoing solution, not a one-off.
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jplee3
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

crefwatch wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:21 pm Those two photos have a very professional look to them. Did you take them, or are they from the appliance maker?

I ask because if your kitchen looks remotely like the photos, you may wish to ask yourself (or a sister-in-law who's a real estate agent) if potential buyers for this home are expecting the full Mini-Mansion "look". If you put in a smaller (but large) 36" refrigerator, even if you spend money on carpentry dress-up, the kitchen may look like it was owned for a few years by someone who had no money.

Don't take that personally - and don't provide personal information. I'm just pointing out that your (apparent) reluctance to hire a professional to do the job at the level it currently is done means you will not have the "same" kitchen when you are finished. It might help your sense of alarm if you go up to your attic, and search unfinished parts of your basement (?) for other evidence of minor rodent infestation. It's not exactly unheard of in suburbia, let alone rural living. Every fall, when it gets cold, the mice that co-exist with our non-huntable deer population look for a warm place for the coming winter. You need an ongoing solution, not a one-off.
These are listing photos from the sellers. We just bought the place so plan to live in it for a while. Not sure that the previous owners were going for the "mini-mansion look" but they sure didn't upkeep it if that was the intention. You should have seen the amount of rat nesting under the cabinets and void spaces. The guy left the French doors open all the time and had a dog. The place was absolutely filthy but the tile hid it well.

At this point the plan is to rebuild the base cabinets and get the kitchen back to looking how it originally was. As far as the fridge, I think we're just going to pay to have it moved out and inspected by an appliance repair pro (doing maintenance, cleaning, etc), clean-up the floor and wall (removing drywall and clearing out whatever might be in there), and replace the hack-job flooring that currently exists under the fridge with the same tile (it's class 4 I believe) and have the refrigerator moved back in. I wouldn't want to get a standard size fridge at the moment just because of the weird spacing issue... it might be 'normal' to deal with rodents but the owners clearly acted negligent in keeping them out of the home based on the amount of nesting there was:

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shunkman
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by shunkman »

OMG! This is not your typical mouse problem. Did you know about the rat infestation and then bought the house anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if wires have been chewed and who knows what else. You have my sympathy.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by wfrobinette »

stan1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:44 pm To me that fridge seems way out of proportion to the size and level of finish in the rest of the kitchen.

I'd agree with buying a standard 36" counter depth fridge. At 17 years old the Sub-Zero is nearing end of life and replacing it will be very, very expensive.

The cabinet materials look to be pretty standard. I'd consider having a cabinet maker or remodeler come in and give you space for a 36" fridge and a pantry unit, including replacing the little dresser-like cabinet to the right of the fridge. Cost of this plus the new fridge should be less than the cost of a replacement Sub-Zero. Biggest challenge might be finding a cabinet maker willing to do a small job, but you'll eventually find someone who will do it.
+1
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by wfrobinette »

shunkman wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:12 pm OMG! This is not your typical mouse problem. Did you know about the rat infestation and then bought the house anyway? I wouldn't be surprised if wires have been chewed and who knows what else. You have my sympathy.
That is pretty bad.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by 123 »

If you considered replacing the Subzero with a standard size fridge and/or re-working your kitchen cabinets you might want to see if the same style and color of cabinet is available from the manufacturer. If it's a "branded" kitchen cabinet there may be labels inside of a drawer etc that identifies the brand. You can then check online to see if the brand still offers the same style of cabinet (often defined by style of cabinet door). Beyond that it's checking if the same color wood or stain is available. Some manufacturers allow you to order a small sample door in a certain cabinet style and stain so you can evaluate for compatibility. If all that works its then onward to order component cabinets and pieces for your restructured areas, you may want to do that through a kitchen store since you'll likely want installation.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by mikejuss »

Huh--why is there dirt, and not wood or tile, under the fridge? That looks like a really weird setup. :confused
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by mkc »

mikejuss wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:57 pm Huh--why is there dirt, and not wood or tile, under the fridge? That looks like a really weird setup. :confused
Looks like 2 different tile jobs - an original, which was busted out except for right under the fridge (you can see it in some of the photos - might be a light pinkish-grey in color), then the newer "whole house" installation which tiled up to the cabinets. Guessing the fridge was left in place when the floor was redone, and they only removed what they could reach from the front.

Cabinets are usually set on sub floor/slab rather than extending tile to the wall and setting cabinets on it.
Last edited by mkc on Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by mikejuss »

mkc wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:06 pm
mikejuss wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:57 pm Huh--why is there dirt, and not wood or tile, under the fridge? That looks like a really weird setup. :confused
Looks like 2 different tile jobs - an original, which was busted out except for right under the fridge (you can see it in some of the photos - might be a light grey in color), then the newer "whole house" installation which tiled up to the cabinets. Guessing the fridge was left in place when the floor was redone, and they only removed what they could reach from the front.

Cabinets are usually set on sub floor/slab rather than extending tile to the wall and setting cabinets on it.
Makes sense. But the question remains: how the heck did so much stuff accumulate under the fridge? Those pictures are wacky.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by mkc »

mikejuss wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:08 pm
mkc wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:06 pm
mikejuss wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:57 pm Huh--why is there dirt, and not wood or tile, under the fridge? That looks like a really weird setup. :confused
Looks like 2 different tile jobs - an original, which was busted out except for right under the fridge (you can see it in some of the photos - might be a light grey in color), then the newer "whole house" installation which tiled up to the cabinets. Guessing the fridge was left in place when the floor was redone, and they only removed what they could reach from the front.

Cabinets are usually set on sub floor/slab rather than extending tile to the wall and setting cabinets on it.
Makes sense. But the question remains: how the heck did so much stuff accumulate under the fridge? Those pictures are wacky.
Rodents bringing it in as nesting materials.

Almost appears the house was unoccupied/vacant for quite a while given the extent of the nesting...
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by UALflyer »

stan1 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:44 pm I'd agree with buying a standard 36" counter depth fridge. At 17 years old the Sub-Zero is nearing end of life and replacing it will be very, very expensive.
For what it's worth, a 17 year old Sub-Zero is not even close to the end of its life. It may require some repairs, but unlike most other manufacturers, Sub-Zero continues to make replacement parts essentially in perpetuity. It is very common to find 30 - 45 year old Sub-Zero's out there.
The cabinet materials look to be pretty standard. I'd consider having a cabinet maker or remodeler come in and give you space for a 36" fridge and a pantry unit, including replacing the little dresser-like cabinet to the right of the fridge. Cost of this plus the new fridge should be less than the cost of a replacement Sub-Zero. Biggest challenge might be finding a cabinet maker willing to do a small job, but you'll eventually find someone who will do it.
As mkc correctly pointed out above, a freestanding (not built in) counterdepth 36" fridge will stick out past the counters, and will have quite a bit less capacity than what the OP has now. A standard depth 36" fridge will stick out a ton, so we are talking about a very different footprint.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

mkc wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:09 pm
mikejuss wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:08 pm
mkc wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:06 pm
mikejuss wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:57 pm Huh--why is there dirt, and not wood or tile, under the fridge? That looks like a really weird setup. :confused
Looks like 2 different tile jobs - an original, which was busted out except for right under the fridge (you can see it in some of the photos - might be a light grey in color), then the newer "whole house" installation which tiled up to the cabinets. Guessing the fridge was left in place when the floor was redone, and they only removed what they could reach from the front.

Cabinets are usually set on sub floor/slab rather than extending tile to the wall and setting cabinets on it.
Makes sense. But the question remains: how the heck did so much stuff accumulate under the fridge? Those pictures are wacky.
Rodents bringing it in as nesting materials.

Almost appears the house was unoccupied/vacant for quite a while given the extent of the nesting...
Yep, it's all nesting material. I, along with the pest guy, suspect that the prior owner simply left the French door open all the time. The times we visited the home the door was cracked open and the time I went over while the guy was there he had the garage entry door wide open. I'm positive the things were dragging all those materials in with the doors open like that. These owners were at this place for over 15 years, and the guy had one or two dogs. If he left the French doors open a majority of these years, all those nesting materials could have just gradually accumulated with rats (and mice possibly) bringing them in little by little at a time until it got to this point.

We had a home inspection done (and that guy was horrible... I'm going to write a complaint up on him since he failed to call out a Zinsco panel and now we are on the line for replacing that with insurance too. Replacing it isn't going to be trivial or inexpensive either due to stringent requirements from the local power company making us trench or make modifications to the closet when we do upgrade). What we should have done, and what I'd encourage any home buyer to do, is to pay to have a thorough pest (not just termite) inspection done. Granted, not all owners are this negligent and careless but especially on an older home, it's just not a bad idea to get done. I wish we had known or thought of this. The problem here too is that all the nesting was hidden behind toe kicks. They basically made their way into the crevices/gaps and then chewed holes through the back corners of the particle board that separated each cabinet section. The mess is extensive and it has been a complete pain in the rear to get it cleaned up. The cabinet builder is coming back this Saturday to reinstall/rebuild new cabinets (with plywood) - the particleboard crap soaks up water, urine, etc so it ends up smelling really awful.

Again, it's *really* hard to believe the owners had no knowledge of this. I think the guy probably knew and didn't bother doing anything about it. Or he was *that* obtuse that he left the French doors open overnight and the rats were partying for nearly a couple decades... prior to fumigation I caught/killed what I believe was the mother rat in a snap trap (both my wife and I saw it running around the kitchen and upstairs). After we opened the toe kick under the kitchen sink, which is where the smell was the worst, I found 3 dead juveniles which were probably her litter. It was absolutely disgusting. During cleaning things out, I found at least two mummified/decomposed rats that had probably been dead for years too. Really horrible stuff.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by mikejuss »

jplee3 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:41 pmYep, it's all nesting material. I, along with the pest guy, suspect that the prior owner simply left the French door open all the time. The times we visited the home the door was cracked open and the time I went over while the guy was there he had the garage entry door wide open. I'm positive the things were dragging all those materials in with the doors open like that. These owners were at this place for over 15 years, and the guy had one or two dogs. If he left the French doors open a majority of these years, all those nesting materials could have just gradually accumulated with rats (and mice possibly) bringing them in little by little at a time until it got to this point.
Who...leaves the doors to their house open all the time? That sounds like barnyard behavior. Sorry you're going through this, OP.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by cchrissyy »

Have you pulled out the oven yet?

It's not realistic that you had just one little family if rats, or that given free reign they nicely confined themselves to the cabinets you know about and declined to explore the paths through walls to more rooms and more ways to the outside.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by shunkman »

This must be very stressful for you and your wife. I hope it all gets resolved without anymore unpleasant surprises. You have had more than your share already. And thank you for sharing this so others can learn what to look out for. I'm sorry if one of my previous posts seemed unsympathetic. I didn't realize the extent of the problem.
Last edited by shunkman on Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

cchrissyy wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:06 pm Have you pulled out the oven yet?

It's not realistic that you had just one little family if rats, or that given free reign they nicely confined themselves to the cabinets you know about and declined to explore the paths through walls to more rooms and more ways to the outside.
Yes, the oven is newer though so I don't think they had enough time to infest it. But I'm suspecting the reason there's a new oven is because the old was was infested and they got rid of it within the past few years.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by crefwatch »

Wow. Thank you for your helpful response. It is much worse than you suggested in the early posts!

Have you asked your lawyer (in my county you need a lawyer to buy a house) to what extent you bought "as is" and have no recourse against the seller? A lot of contingencies explicitly expire after the Closing.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by jplee3 »

crefwatch wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:02 pm Wow. Thank you for your helpful response. It is much worse than you suggested in the early posts!

Have you asked your lawyer (in my county you need a lawyer to buy a house) to what extent you bought "as is" and have no recourse against the seller? A lot of contingencies explicitly expire after the Closing.
I asked a friend who has her JD and specialized in commercial RE law at a point in time but does RE Investing full time now. She said that there's really no recourse unless we can prove the seller knew or was aware of the issues with the rats and deliberately refused to do anything about it.

During the rentback period we actually called out that we saw droppings on the floor and in cabinets and this information was passed to the seller and listing agent but we never got a response from them. This might be the only thing we have to stand on, if anything. I would think something like this could go to small claims court - hiring a lawyer it seems like would get expensive. I do have a legal plan through work so perhaps might consider leveraging that. Something to consider is that they lived here for well over a decade and so have many of their neighbors. The neighbors on this street seem very tight knit - we see the seller's car parked in the neighbor's driveway across the street often so I think they're really close. He was staying with them while looking for a new place and may be coming back to hang out or stay over in the case that work is being done on their new place. It's actually kind of weird and awkward... my point though is that pursuing any sort of legal action may have larger implications as far as neighbors are concerned - already, we get the sense that our neighbors don't seem to like us. We have said a few things to the next door neighbor about what's going on and may have put a slightly negative spin on it, but I get the feeling that there might be some amount of "taking sides" going on here. So really this may be one of those "hill to die on" types of decisions.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by supalong52 »

Wow the listing photo is so different from reality. You've gotten some good advice in this thread already. I wish you luck, and I hope you do what you can to keep the fridge because you have a nice one even if it is 17 years old.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by Alex Frakt »

Just wanted to confirm a couple of things about SubZero fridges that have been mentioned above. One came with my condo when I bought it in 2004. It's built into a very tight space with building plumbing on either side. Since there is no practical option for replacing it with anything but a new one which runs nearly $10k, I've learned a lot about it so I can keep it going.

If you open the door and look at the frame by the hinge, you should see a tag with the model number. Google it and you'll find the manual which will explain how to get the wheels down and take the louvers off the top. One nice thing is that all the ventilation, mechanical and electrical components are in that space behind the louvers. Once you remove them, it is very likely that there is space between the actual top of the body and the shelf above it. This will allow you (or the mover) to raise the fridge enough to pull it out onto some plywood.

I would not be in a hurry to replace your fridge. These things are well built and can be kept running forever. Parts are still available and it's designed to be worked on rather than thrown away if a part goes bad. When my radiator fan motor died, I was able to buy the part and replace it myself. Maintenance pretty much consists of vacuuming the radiator fins when the display on the inside says it is needed. But if you do need someone to work on it, make sure you get a SubZero or commercial fridge specialist.

Finally, don't replace it with something deeper. It will stick out and both look terrible and be a real annoyance when you are working in there. My mom made that mistake in her kitchen.
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Re: Rat/mouse hole behind Subzero fridge...

Post by MarkerFM »

Alex Frakt wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:16 am Maintenance pretty much consists of vacuuming the radiator fins when the display on the inside says it is needed.
Having been the owner of many Sub-Zero fridges over time, I agree with you overall. However, you might want to vacuum the fins on a schedule that is less time than it would normally take for the display to indicate it's needed. I was told that is triggered when the compressor is running an excessive amount of time, so I think it is better to not let it get to that point. Maybe doesn't matter, but it's a pretty trivial chore.
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