College Considerations & Mental Health

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AustenNut
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College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by AustenNut »

My spouse and I had different upbringings with how our families paid (or didn't pay) for college, but we agreed that we would cover the cost of attendance at any in-state public university and have been contributing funds to a 529 for that purpose. Our child is bright (would estimate around 90th percentile) but suffers with anxiety and depression. Our child is receiving treatment and will hopefully learn all the coping mechanisms necessary to live a happy life. But the older our child becomes, the greater the chance of this becoming something that will become a lifelong issue that is continually on the horizon. Thus, a question has arisen in our household as to whether an in-state public university (the smallest of which is about 10,000 students) would be the best environment for him. Depending on the answer, we may need to consider upping our contributions to the 529 (the actionable part of the thread).

As I respect the Boglehead community for its experience and thoughtfulness, I would appreciate any feedback from those who may have had any kind of experience with these issues. For students with mental health concerns, what did you find successful for them with higher education? What do you wish you would have known or done differently? Possible topics to address (but not limited to) include:
  • Distance from home
    Size of college
    Class sizes
    Selectivity of college
    Retention rate of grads (particularly effect of others dropping out on the student)
Thanks in advance for your advice!
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celia
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by celia »

I think this would be better answered on another forum, such as CollegeConfidential.com.

Our kids went to relatively small (non-Public) high schools, so the enrollment at the colleges they were considering was one consideration.

I know that just as public schools have resources / counselors to work with kids with special needs, so do public colleges. I would expect each private college would have their own level of support systems, different than other private schools. So that route would require more research.

Or you could approach this through mental health sources. That’s what I would do as the correct setting is more important for your child than likely any other criteria.
Last edited by celia on Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DarthSage
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by DarthSage »

You might also want to consider proximity to home when picking a college.

We're in North Carolina, and our DD18 had hopes of going AWAY to school--at least as far as the flagship, UNC-Chapel Hill. Well, she got wait-listed, one thing and another, she's at the local branch. Still highly regarded, but not what she wanted, mostly because it's 3 miles from home. She also suffers from anxiety, and was very recently diagnosed with ADHD. We had agreed upfront that she would live on campus anyway, and then she got a small scholarship for room and board. She's in the Honors college.

This has worked out extremely well, at least so far. She was able to keep her familiar doctors and Starbucks job. She can stop home any time. We weren't planning on her having a car on campus, but due to the job (and 4:30 start time some days), we've been juggling vehicles. She stops in a few times a week, has brought friends over, that kind of thing. It really helped one day when she was on a new medication and got sick at work--I picked her up and brought her here for a few hours until the worst had passed.

Overall, it's been a good balance of freedom, but security, for her.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by beyou »

celia wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:51 pm I think this would be better answered on another forum, such as CollegeConfidential.com.


I would expect each private college would have their own level of support systems, different than other private schools. So that route would require more research.

Or you could approach this through special needs sources. That’s what I would do as the correct setting is more important for your child than likely any other criteria.
Agreed on all above.

cc site will have many posters who are students (get their perspective), parents, some in HS, in college and recent college graduates. They talk academics, search for “right fit”, and for people that hang around outcomes after college.

Resources for mental health will vary significantly, ask on that site. After acceptance, ok to inquire about their campus health resources. Another poster suggested limiting to local area colleges, that would be great to continue with medical resources your child may already feel comforting.

independence as well as social and academic pressures of college are all part of the learning experience, but do your best to judge just how much your child can handle, and keep monitoring, even when in college since you know there is already a problem now. Sometimes it’s hard to predict what works for a teenager and you may find you get feedback only after they start that requires course correction.

In my case, had 2 smart kids, one whom had severe adhd as a child, never thought early on he would go to a top school and succeed, but with proper treatment he settled down in HS and made it. College still presented challenges for him, more social than academic, and was glad he was just a 3 hour drive away. When he had tough times, was able to visit him or have him come home, but fortunately this was not required often. He could have gone to a low cost public but sent him to a mid size private that had the type of peers and activities that I thought would be a good personal fit, and it definitely helped him. They had poor medical resources on campus, but by college he didn’t want treatment anyway, he thought he was ready to go, and mostly he was.

OTOH, had kid who was even more of an academic achiever, had some social anxiety, but mostly seemed headed for a good college and no concerns about academics. Fit seemed important, also sent to a private where they had unusual themed dorms that would help him with social anxiety, and a large variety of intelligent high achieving peers. Well that did not turn out well at all. Socially we got it right, as that was our concern and we focused on it. But he eventually exhibited all kinds of anxiety over the sheer volume of work and deadlines. This was a college with a reputation for burying students with a very large load of work, but as my kid found HS easy, was not concerned at all. Well I should have been. He did graduate, and even got into an “intense” grad school program, but the anxiety grew each year, and developed depression too, then dropped out of the graduate school. This expensive uni had insufficient mental health resources, some students had to wait weeks or months to speak to someone in the student health center. And because it was in a rural area far from home, very limited off campus resources too. This was just before the explosion in telehealth so maybe today the rural location and lack of on campus resources might be less of an issue. But sometimes a crisis for an 18 or 19 year old also can be supported with some parental interaction, so more than a 3 hr drive and that option is limited.

Any way, depression and anxiety can be treatable but the social and academic pressured of college may make a difficult task even more difficult. As to saving more for a private school, don’t assume spending more gets you more. Both private schools I spent $ on were understaffed to help. Find local college with best fit, which may be private or public. You may consider saving for cost or private, but may not have to spend the $ if a local public school meets the needs. From a purely financial standpoint, one kid really benefited from the $ spent (adhd kid) but other did not due to it being wrong environment for someone with anxiety, and due to being so geographically isolated IMO. Chances are it’s not “worth it” to pay the private school costs if you think purely in terms of investment and career/salary outcomes,
as this is a high risk investment for a child with non-academic issues. But if a good environment exists for their personal needs and it helps them overcome, any price may be worthwhile.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Voltaire2.0 »

I've found College Confidential to be full of griping, catty sniping and random anecdotes. I would put modest stock in anything I read there.

IMO, you need to visit the schools in person, pose your questions directly and see how the institution "feels." Do they have support resources? Are they adequate? Are they caring and competent people, or just placeholders?

It sounds like your child may benefit from a more personal environment. Some state universities have honors school-within-a-school programs that might work, but brochures and numbers don't tell the entire story. A smaller, private school with a better teacher-to-student ratio and the appropriate academic program (very important) may be the right fit, if you can afford it. Private schools have high list prices, but can be generous with aid.

Distance from home is a legitimate concern. A bit of distance encourages independence, at the cost of isolation. College is challenging enough, so I might lean towards closeness on this one.

You are correct to consider retention (and graduation) rates. A school that is a whirlwind of instability with people dropping out, that's rarely a good choice.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by celia »

Here’s something we would do when visiting colleges (which might not be as available right now due to covid). First, we usually visited as a family so younger kids could benefit and we wouldn’t have to visit that round of colleges again.

We would go on the public tours with a guide, who is often a student. (One of our kids ended up doing that as a campus job.) Our kids would be embassarred by my asking questions and so many of them. :oops: But that’s why we were there to begin with. So I told them to stay in the same tour group but they didn’t need to stand near us. But they should still listen to all the answers.

We would ask about dorm life and if we could see a room. (Sometimes we could, but that might be doubtful during covid.) And if financial aid counselors were available for further questions at the end, we would also take advantage of that. After the financial questions were done, then I’d ask them other questions. Sometimes we were in town solely to check out the college environment (as opposed to trips where we were on vacation nearby) so we took advantage of all we could while there.

Later, when it came to decision time, the kids were glad they had more information and had experienced the ‘vibes’ and saw the social scene.

OP, We don’t know where you live, but if you have dreary winters that impact your mental state, take that into account.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Kenkat »

Another option is to consider a two-year community college that has a conduit / pathway program to a four year college. Smaller class size and a less overwhelming environment can be found sometimes at these types of schools. What is possible will depend somewhat on what your state supports. In Ohio, there are state accredited community colleges with partnership programs already in place with four year state schools so it is a well supported path that can make good sense for some situations.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by JoeRetire »

AustenNut wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:58 pmOur child is bright (would estimate around 90th percentile) but suffers with anxiety and depression. Our child is receiving treatment and will hopefully learn all the coping mechanisms necessary to live a happy life. But the older our child becomes, the greater the chance of this becoming something that will become a lifelong issue that is continually on the horizon. Thus, a question has arisen in our household as to whether an in-state public university (the smallest of which is about 10,000 students) would be the best environment for him.
Seems like something that should be discussed with your child's mental health professionals.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Beensabu »

AustenNut wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:58 pm ...the older our child becomes, the greater the chance of this becoming something that will become a lifelong issue that is continually on the horizon. Thus, a question has arisen in our household as to whether an in-state public university (the smallest of which is about 10,000 students) would be the best environment for him.
10,000 is a mid-size town, comprised of many different smaller communities and groups.

Some are more anxious in crowds vs. small groups, and some the other way around.

Sometimes, large expansive environments can leave one feeling isolated, but small insular environments can do the same as well.

It all depends. Your child probably knows what their parameters for a comfortable environment are. Ask them.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by DoTheMath »

I would say it isn't automatically about the size of the school. It is going to be very much about the student's needs and the resources of a particular school. A large school will have more resources, but also have to spread it over a larger population. A large school will be easier to get lost in, but will also more likely have a "tribe" that the student can fit in with. And vice versa for smaller schools.

As an example, I am at a large state university, but we have a high quality honors program and the students in that program take many (maybe most) of their classes through the honors program. Those classes are considerably smaller and by virtue of taking many classes together and the program itself, the honors students are a tight-knit community and a student could venture out from that community as much or as little as they like. A student at my university could have two very different experiences depending on if they are in the honors program, or not.

That said, by all accounts the mental health resources at my university is terribly understaffed. I wouldn't encourage a fragile student to attend my university unless they have a well-developed support system of their own.

On the other hand, in very broad terms, a small liberal arts school is going to have a much stronger sense of community. A professor will notice if you don't attend class and may well reach out to see if you are okay. That hardly ever happens at a large state university. But on the other hand a smaller school probably doesn't have the same level of on campus mental health resources.

It is going to come down to finding the right fit for the student. And it is also possible that going to college isn't the right fit at all, or at least not at the present moment.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

I would answer the question in a different way.

What would your kid's social support network when he/she in college?

My daughter studied 2 hours away from home. She could and did catch a drive home over the weekend or we could and did visit her when she need some support. Many of her high school mates went to the same college too.

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AustenNut
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by AustenNut »

Thanks to all of you who have commented on this thread. This is something that we will certainly discuss with medical professionals. Our child, however, is still in elementary school and thus we anticipate multiple changes of interests in terms of possible areas of study and career, etc. At present the only preference is for "small classes" but most elementary schoolers (ours included) has little concept of the size that college classes can be. But it does point to one preference that might be likely to stay. We are thinking about this now, however, as neither my spouse nor I earn 6-figure salaries, and we will need to start saving whatever extra moneys we can now if we're seriously considering other possibilities for higher ed.

With the searches I have done of College Confidential, most of the results have been more about particular universities and not more of general issues/considerations in terms of the supports needed for students with anxiety and depression. I will, however, see if I can find much in the way of results on the mental health services and general community & support at our Louisiana public colleges.

I definitely see a theme of the benefits of attending a school closer to home (whether that's the same town or within easy driving distance). And looking into the honors colleges of the universities, and how the experience of honors students differs from the regular student's experience, is also an important thing to keep in mind.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful comments; thank you.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by HereToLearn »

celia wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:13 pm Here’s something we would do when visiting colleges (which might not be as available right now due to covid). First, we usually visited as a family so younger kids could benefit and we wouldn’t have to visit that round of colleges again.

We would go on the public tours with a guide, who is often a student. (One of our kids ended up doing that as a campus job.) Our kids would be embassarred by my asking questions and so many of them. :oops: But that’s why we were there to begin with. So I told them to stay in the same tour group but they didn’t need to stand near us. But they should still listen to all the answers.

We would ask about dorm life and if we could see a room. (Sometimes we could, but that might be doubtful during covid.) And if financial aid counselors were available for further questions at the end, we would also take advantage of that. After the financial questions were done, then I’d ask them other questions. Sometimes we were in town solely to check out the college environment (as opposed to trips where we were on vacation nearby) so we took advantage of all we could while there.

Later, when it came to decision time, the kids were glad they had more information and had experienced the ‘vibes’ and saw the social scene.

OP, We don’t know where you live, but if you have dreary winters that impact your mental state, take that into account.
Adding to the excellent suggestions above, here is my essential college visit activity: Hang out where students congregate and watch how they interact. Coffee shops or any food service area on campus. Walk around campus without the tour guide, just to observe students. Are they animated? Chatting with friends as they walk from class to class, or striding solo?
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by firebirdparts »

I have to think for some, roommate is going to be issue #1. State schools use some force with freshmen about living in dorms with a roommate. It’s a tough environment for anybody.

Your state school may be different.

You can bypass that, if it is even a requirement, by doing years in CC. That may create the opposite problem, going to university too isolated.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Mr. Rumples »

Depending on interests, academic achievement, scholarships, loans and so forth, there are opportunities and choices to consider. For example, in VA, there are smaller state schools and then out of state, there are many excellent small schools. I saw an article on TV about a small university which coupled academics with farm work. In VA, UVA's campus at Wise has less than 2,000 students. University of Richmond, a first rate private school has less than 4,000 full time day students.

A more personalized experience might be found by seeing which schools have an "university without walls" program.

This all presumes an academic course. Trades offer a chance for personalized instruction or apprenticeship and competitive salaries.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by dekecarver »

Kenkat wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:23 pm Another option is to consider a two-year community college that has a conduit / pathway program to a four year college. Smaller class size and a less overwhelming environment can be found sometimes at these types of schools. What is possible will depend somewhat on what your state supports. In Ohio, there are state accredited community colleges with partnership programs already in place with four year state schools so it is a well supported path that can make good sense for some situations.
100% agree.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Kagord »

AustenNut wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:07 pm Our child, however, is still in elementary school and thus we anticipate multiple changes of interests in terms of possible areas of study and career, etc.
Unless you're aiming and grooming for a top 10 school, and TBH 90% is probably not going to cut it anyways, I wouldn't think about a specific college until sophomore year in HS. College prep and financing prep, sure, but college selection considerations, way too early here.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by ClevrChico »

I'd also suggest community college. This should probably be the default choice for a lot of students.

You get small class sizes (mine ranged from 5 - 30 people), potential to be a commuter student, and save a bundle of cash. Some have coop programs with larger universities and offer bachelors and masters degrees all in one place.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by runninginvestor »

AustenNut wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:58 pm
  • Distance from home
    Size of college
    Class sizes
    Selectivity of college
    Retention rate of grads (particularly effect of others dropping out on the student)
Thanks in advance for your advice!
Once you start narrowing down the college, don't neglect going to the source. Ala go to the school's reports on student psychological services. It'll give you a sense of what's available while also giving an idea of what life is like at that school. The university I went to (top 10, won't name it for anonymity) had students use the psychological center at more than twice the national rate of similar schools. And it increases every year for the past decade (they stopped producing their nice report a few years ago...).

It wasn't a good school for mental health and their own data showed it unfortunately.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by DarthSage »

Ok, apologies in advance for the long post:

First, I actually have 2 kids with anxiety. The older one (DS24) is autistic, as well as having anxiety and depression, so it's a whole different gestalt in dealing with him. He also would be the most introverted in a room full of introverts. He went the community college route, and is now at the same university as his sister (DD18), but lives at home. He goes to school part time and works full time. We're seeing progress with him, but, as I said, it's a different worldview.

I wanted to give you my take on Honors College, with regards to my daughter. The requirements and perks vary from school to school. In our case, the honors kids are all housed in an honors dorm--usually, these are the nicest, newest dorms. In DD18's case, they had more kids than expected, so she's in the "overflow" dorm next door, built at the same time (2018) and next to the new dining hall. She has access to a full kitchen--important to her, she's a stress baker--and free laundry. There are also a couple community rooms for studying and games. Because of the dorm set-up, the Honors kids are pretty tight.

She does have an extra course (and maybe a seminar?) that she has to do. You could pick from several--she's pre-law, so she picked that. She says it's harder than she expected, but super interesting.

Honors kids get first pick for course selection.

Honors kids also get special activities. They had a short fall break, and the Honors kids got the chance to go to DC for a few days (cost me $295, worth every penny). DD18 literally went nuts over the pandas--she'd never seen one before. Her second favorite was the Spy Museum.

I think this is college-wide, but I know they encourage the Honors kids, especially, to travel abroad. Not just for a semester--DD will be going to Denmark in May (if she gets her passport renewed--she can do that on campus, no excuse!). They have 1-2 week trips, summers abroad, as well as semesters--I don't know if this is something that interests you at all. But, for our DD, it's good for her to get a taste of being abroad without Mom and Dad, without committing to an entire semester. We also know that Denmark is very English-friendly--a good choice for her. There are kids who would do fine being tossed into a completely foreign experience--mine isn't one of them. But, we want her to have as many experiences as possible.

Still awake? Feel free to ask any questions.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

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As a reminder, medical advice is off-topic. See our guidelines: Medical Issues
Questions on medical issues are beyond the scope of the forum. If you are looking for medical information online, I suggest you start with the Medical Library Association's User's Guide to Finding and Evaluating Health Information on the Web which, in addition to providing guidance on evaluating health information, includes a list of their top recommended sites.
Please keep the discussion focused on the educational aspects. Mental health is a medical issue. Details of diagnoses, treatments, etc. are off-topic.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Sandtrap »

AustenNut wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:58 pm My spouse and I had different upbringings with how our families paid (or didn't pay) for college, but we agreed that we would cover the cost of attendance at any in-state public university and have been contributing funds to a 529 for that purpose. Our child is bright (would estimate around 90th percentile) but suffers with anxiety and depression. Our child is receiving treatment and will hopefully learn all the coping mechanisms necessary to live a happy life. But the older our child becomes, the greater the chance of this becoming something that will become a lifelong issue that is continually on the horizon. Thus, a question has arisen in our household as to whether an in-state public university (the smallest of which is about 10,000 students) would be the best environment for him. Depending on the answer, we may need to consider upping our contributions to the 529 (the actionable part of the thread).

As I respect the Boglehead community for its experience and thoughtfulness, I would appreciate any feedback from those who may have had any kind of experience with these issues. For students with mental health concerns, what did you find successful for them with higher education? What do you wish you would have known or done differently? Possible topics to address (but not limited to) include:
  • Distance from home
    Size of college
    Class sizes
    Selectivity of college
    Retention rate of grads (particularly effect of others dropping out on the student)
Thanks in advance for your advice!
Choice 1
Smallest private college with small class sizes. IE: parochial, etc.
Choice 2
Small community college with small class sizes.
Choice 3
Vocational college or speciality. IE: nursing, ems, etc.

There is definitely a difference between huge public universities for "any new student".
And, if coming from a small private (perhaps elite) parochial or other high school, all the more so. (huge shock factor ie: drown).

You are on track to address these issues as they apply to "your child" and "your family" (not others).

Factors are:
1
small private college with small classes and individual student/teacher awareness and access to consults as needed. IE: The school knows who your child is and has them monitored and in the best interest. VS being "processed" in an "institution".
2
Peer group
This is huge. If #1, there will be a commensurate peer group, perhaps a higher ratio of other students from small private high schools, so the same climate, etc.
3
Quality of faculty, academic programs, and again, focus on the "student" and guidance through their time there with a focus on a long term relationship.
4
Parental awareness and involvment: (you already are doing this).

Selectivity and retention rate is a much less priority than #1-3.

The maturation and so forth that happens in the college years is far more important than what is in a book in class.

Strive for a seamless transition from the academic and other dynamics of your child's high school into the next institution and phase of life.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Nowizard »

As one who worked with such issues professionally, a general suggestion or two. First, have conversations with your son and visit prospective campuses multiple times, including buildings where he would have classes. Familiarity lessens the normal anxiety of incoming students. If staying in a dorm, inquire about considerations regarding room mates such as his preferences, how matched, etc. Of substantial importance is the counseling center of the chosen school. Do they have consulting psychiatrists or not if your son is on medication or if it might be prescribed? Do they have employed psychologists or qualified counselors, and/or interns? If interns, how is it determined who will see a specific client, the intern or professional staff? Visit the center. There are generally questions about whether to seek aid at the campus counseling center or in the private community. Some students want more privacy, others feel that issues related to campus adjustment only are best treated on campus. Some may participate in a campus counseling program for adjustment and have a private therapist as well. Clearly, consult with any therapist your son is presently seeing for specifics. There are many possibilities such as possible on-line coursework, initial attendance at a college in your home town, or delay of enrollment based on a time for preparation. All of these are individual decisions. If not currently seeing a therapist but, for example, on medication with med checks only, seeing a therapist could be considered as well. You do have some insight into possible adjustment issues based on you and your son's adjustment to all that has been occurring in the world with the pandemic. Mental health issues are significantly increased across the population, as you are certain to be aware. These comments are not advice but process suggestions for consideration.

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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

It's going to be very hard to judge whether a school has good resources for mental health, unfortunately, until your child is already enrolled and in need of it. About the only thing consistent that I've observed is that wealthier schools tend to have more 'second chances' with respect to withdrawing/probation, and state schools tend to let students slip through the cracks more (fewer resources and also higher rate of dropouts to begin with -- a community college kid not going to class or failing a course just isn't an all-hands-on-deck 'crisis' the way it is at Ivy.) But none of that matters if your student *doesn't* need the school for the resources, or if the school environment doesn't trigger their personal set of problems. And that's really hard to judge -- the bigger school might allow for more anonymity or more options; the smaller school might feel like more support. The private school might be a pressure cooker -- the state school might allow the kid to be a big fish with lots of accolades.

With an elementary schooler you have a *lot* of time.
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Isabelle77 »

AustenNut wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:07 pm Thanks to all of you who have commented on this thread. This is something that we will certainly discuss with medical professionals. Our child, however, is still in elementary school and thus we anticipate multiple changes of interests in terms of possible areas of study and career, etc. At present the only preference is for "small classes" but most elementary schoolers (ours included) has little concept of the size that college classes can be. But it does point to one preference that might be likely to stay. We are thinking about this now, however, as neither my spouse nor I earn 6-figure salaries, and we will need to start saving whatever extra moneys we can now if we're seriously considering other possibilities for higher ed.

With the searches I have done of College Confidential, most of the results have been more about particular universities and not more of general issues/considerations in terms of the supports needed for students with anxiety and depression. I will, however, see if I can find much in the way of results on the mental health services and general community & support at our Louisiana public colleges.

I definitely see a theme of the benefits of attending a school closer to home (whether that's the same town or within easy driving distance). And looking into the honors colleges of the universities, and how the experience of honors students differs from the regular student's experience, is also an important thing to keep in mind.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughtful comments; thank you.
A few thoughts. Since your child is still quite young, don't worry too much yet :) I agree with perhaps saving a little more than you may have initially, no reason to have it in a 529, and extra savings is never a bad thing anyway. Secondly, I would perhaps think about experiences like summer camp and discuss with your child's providers. My nephew has terrible anxiety and found summer camp a difficult but rewarding experience that made him feel quite brave.

I have high schoolers and find College Confidential anxiety-inducing and many of the parents on there terrifying. YMMV
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AustenNut
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by AustenNut »

Once again, many thanks for the thoughtful replies.

In case it is not clear, we are NOT looking at particular colleges for our elementary-aged child right now, at least not with respect to where we think our child might actually apply senior year. I have begun looking at what options are around and their costs to determine if we need to try to save more money for our child's post-secondary education. And even if our child's 90th percentile academics were enough to get into an Ivy/Top 10, I would have serious concerns about that being the right setting (our child would have to be highly convincing in high school/senior year)
Isabelle77 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:45 pm I would perhaps think about experiences like summer camp and discuss with your child's providers. My nephew has terrible anxiety and found summer camp a difficult but rewarding experience that made him feel quite brave.
Thanks for the summer programs suggestion. It looks as though there are a couple of in-state summer options that might be good to try once eligible, as it would help create a sense of familiarity about college and college campuses, and also let us see what specific concerns we may end up having in college.
Voltaire2.0 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:15 am You are correct to consider retention (and graduation) rates. A school that is a whirlwind of instability with people dropping out, that's rarely a good choice.
Many (most?) people have recommended community colleges, and we will remember that as a possibility for our child. Our flagship public university has a 43% 4-year graduation rate with 68% that graduate within 8 years. The non-flagship institutions have 50% or less graduating within 8 years. Our local community college has a 17% graduation rate (and only 49% who return after their first year. Are these numbers typical of the programs that people have in their respective states, or are these numbers abnormally low and thus should be concerning?
DarthSage
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by DarthSage »

Yeah, those graduating numbers aren't promising. For comparison, I looked at Fiske's Guide to Colleges, 2018 (the version I happen to have). UNC-Chapel Hill, our state flagship, has 90% graduating in 6 years, and our local branch has 72% graduating in 6 years.

Just for yucks, I checked a couple other states--UCLA was 91% graduate in 6 years. SUNY-Albany was 66%. Rutgers (NJ) was 77%.

Community college is a different animal, a lot of students there work full time and go to school part time. They also have a high proportion of students with financial struggles. Given that it's typically a 2-year school, a 17% graduation rate still sounds very low.

Good luck as you navigate all this. The good news is, you have time, and the best choice (or choices) will hopefully become clearer as college approaches.
HereToLearn
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by HereToLearn »

As you said, you are years away, but if you live near any of these campuses, you may want to follow your local school's FB page or register for email notifications. Or bookmark the link I pasted below and then check on it when your child is of age.

Splash is a one day 'College for Kids' where HS students attend classes taught by mostly undergrads, but sometimes grad students. Some schools offer this program for MS students also: MIT and Yale, that I know of. (MIT's program is two days and Yale offers a three or four weekend program during the summer.)

Cost is extremely reasonable ($20-$30/day), and a wonderful way for a student to experience a college up close and personal. Also, the classes can be a great way to learn something in 50 minutes on a new topic. Content ranges from science of ice cream making to high level math.

Here is a link to the current participants.

https://www.learningu.org/current-programs/

https://www.learningu.org/current-programs/classes/
IMO
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by IMO »

KlangFool wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:59 pm OP,

I would answer the question in a different way.

What would your kid's social support network when he/she in college?

My daughter studied 2 hours away from home. She could and did catch a drive home over the weekend or we could and did visit her when she need some support. Many of her high school mates went to the same college too.

KlangFool
I think this is good advice.

The concept that every kid that "chooses" or "is sent" to a college far from home to be in their best interest (be it a small private school, a larger public school, or even something like an IVY school, I find to be a concern. I could easily see a kid ending up in a social support/network situation that may not work for the particular kid. It could be a very challenging situation and potentially even isolating depending on the child. There definitely is something positive for some kids to go to a college where they already have some friends attending the school, and they can more readily return home for a weekend that doesn't involve a massive drive or a significant flight.

We are in the process of looking at/selecting colleges for our kid, and we are giving a significant amount of thought to the concept if the college is a good fit for our child. It's a very individual thing, but we really value allowing our child to consider activities outside academics along in the decision of what is the right school because school will likely be a 4-5 year period of time and I'd had it to feel like a miserable experience solely focused on academics, or living in a place that doesn't suit one's non-academic interests, just for the sake of attending a particular school. Our kid does very well at academics, but despite that, some of the great academic choices (for what that's worth) that he'd likely get accepted would just be bad choices for our particular kid when it comes to fit.

OP, you also note graduation rate issues/concerns. I honestly don't know what exactly those things mean in real life and that statistic has never been entertained as we look at colleges. In real life, however, I can see how sometimes things like failing to have access to a few required classes could delay graduation or changing majors could extend the normal 4 yr period. But ultimately that just seems like an individual thing for any child. From a financial perspective, I suspect it may be of benefit to entertain the realistic aspect that one's kid may need to take an extra semester/year of college to graduate with all the associated additional costs that entails (regardless of a school's graduation statistic). I know we've given that some thought when it comes to the finances of various college options.
MarkRoulo
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by MarkRoulo »

AustenNut wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:49 pm Once again, many thanks for the thoughtful replies.

In case it is not clear, we are NOT looking at particular colleges for our elementary-aged child right now, at least not with respect to where we think our child might actually apply senior year. I have begun looking at what options are around and their costs to determine if we need to try to save more money for our child's post-secondary education. And even if our child's 90th percentile academics were enough to get into an Ivy/Top 10, I would have serious concerns about that being the right setting (our child would have to be highly convincing in high school/senior year)
Isabelle77 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:45 pm I would perhaps think about experiences like summer camp and discuss with your child's providers. My nephew has terrible anxiety and found summer camp a difficult but rewarding experience that made him feel quite brave.
Thanks for the summer programs suggestion. It looks as though there are a couple of in-state summer options that might be good to try once eligible, as it would help create a sense of familiarity about college and college campuses, and also let us see what specific concerns we may end up having in college.
Voltaire2.0 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:15 am You are correct to consider retention (and graduation) rates. A school that is a whirlwind of instability with people dropping out, that's rarely a good choice.
Many (most?) people have recommended community colleges, and we will remember that as a possibility for our child. Our flagship public university has a 43% 4-year graduation rate with 68% that graduate within 8 years. The non-flagship institutions have 50% or less graduating within 8 years. Our local community college has a 17% graduation rate (and only 49% who return after their first year. Are these numbers typical of the programs that people have in their respective states, or are these numbers abnormally low and thus should be concerning?
My son has just gone off to a 4-year college after two years at one of our local community colleges.

Community colleges tend to have low retention and graduation rates because (a) they accept pretty much everyone so there is no filter for either academic ability OR willingness to grind, and (b) many of the students have lots of other things going on (jobs, tending to family members, etc.) and life gets in their way a lot more than it does for traditional 18-22 year olds at 4-year colleges.

State schools tend to have lower graduation rates than "good" private colleges, partially because of the anonymity at a college with 30,000 students vs one with, say, 3,000.

But ... and this is key: Your child doesn't need to transfer from the local community college to an in-state public school.

Mine did, but he was accepted at most of the out-of-state schools to which he applied. No Ivys, and he was turned down by Colby, but he did get in to some reasonable SLACs (Wofford, Florida Southern, Winthrop).

But the community college is cheap enough that 2 years at the private colleges is within spitting distance of 4 years at the state schools.

So consider that route, too!

It probably helps to come from a state with a well known 4-year college system and community colleges *AND* graduate with an Associates degree and 60 transferable semester units ...
Kellerreiss
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by Kellerreiss »

Been there, know this - we've similar son with same circumstances, same academic profile, same issues. His college success was achieved, graduating in 4 years with solid 3.3 GPA from a small welcoming "Colleges that Change Lives" (Loren Pope, deceased, author of original book) "bottom of top 100" liberal arts college, in a pleasant small Midwest city with nonetheless excellent healthcare network, 3+ hr driving-distance from home. Each one of those noted factors played a key role in his successful college experience. School was excellent fit, reasonable equipped and inviting campus, faculty and administration accommodating but never patronizing. Campus location was pleasant "big town" with all needed retail and amenities, capable civic governance, super-safe without being boring.

We felt assured he was "safe" while also being "independent". He "stayed-over for two successive summers, employed on-campus and at off-campus college-arranged paid internship. We visited maybe once a month, with exception of a anxiety-crisis one semester which required my several trips to find off-campus mental health treatment concurrent with academic year, which was easily located via campus health, reasonably available, within our insurance plan, and quite competent.

Choice of an LAC seemed inevitable. Researched options, listened to college counsellors at son's college prep HS. We were "full pay" household, and wanted to be sure that college could be accomplished. despite LD and mental health concerns, in four years, without major disruptions, within $160,000.

Though our son could have attended our state flagship university, given his grades and ACT scores, not good fit, and likely he would've been overwhelmed by the anonymity. Also offered "special consideration" for admission to an elite university, from a meddling relative again terrible fit, otherwise unlikely "reach" actively encouraged by snobby relatives. Don't let "prestige" become a factor here if you're seeking a true college experience success story.

We visited half-dozen LAC campuses, avoided the "prestige" LACs like Oberlin, Dennison, and Kenyon. We narrowed parameters to "no more than five hours driving-distance", case parental monitoring became necessary (not uncommon, from what I've been told.) By doing so, we saw lots of students that "fit his tribe". We always discussed student services, meeting earnest administrators, feeling a warm welcome, and received several merit scholarship "dangles". Almost all these LACs already had specific LD/1st generation/PELL-focused "TRIO programs" to ensure these students succeed at college. Regarding merit aid, we were surprised by frank financial aid discussions at "2nd-tier" LACs. (One LAC offered him a half scholarship, but snobby relatives intervened w/son; it would also have been good choice for him, and significant cost-savings for us.)

We/he together narrowed list down to four similar Midwest LACs, then two, and final choice determined by who had fewer extra essay questions on ED application. Please private message me if you've any specific questions.
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jabberwockOG
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by jabberwockOG »

This is slightly left field in terms of direct advice on picking schools potentially fragile student, but my suggestion is to also work hard during HS years to give your child every possible opportunity to learn and possibly experience as many different careers/professional disciplines as possible. Use family, friends, neighbors working in various professions as resources - for discussions, tours of workplace/facilities, spend a day at office, etc. Also internships for HS students are rare, but they are possible in man fields. Summer vacation volunteer work can be very beneficial and enlightening rather than the more typical low wage summer job at grocery store. Helping a young person discover their passion for a specialty or a specific career early would go a long way to making the higher education experience easier and less anxiety prone. Way too many 18 year olds begin the university experience with no idea what they want to do with their lives. Very soon they feel pressure to pick a specialty/major, and too often they make a poor choice that they may later regret.
vinhodoporto
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by vinhodoporto »

Agree that having a strong social/ emotional support network is hugely important and quite possibly the most Important thing. As a result, we prioritized the ability for us to easily check in and the ability for them to come home for a weekend if needed. This meant our kid applied to 4 schools within a 2 hour drive (including the one they ended up at), one that was a 3 hour drive, and two (that our kid really wanted to apply to) that were within short, frequent flights. We felt living on campus was very important to learn “adulting” and for the social aspects so they’ll be able to live on their own in the future. We talk almost daily and try to see them in person once a week. This has been a mix of them coming home for a Friday or Saturday night every two to three weeks, family weekend trips, and us meeting them at or near campus for a meal, activity, or just to walk around on the other weeks.

Our college student is at a school with a large undergraduate population. Size of the overall school wasn’t really a factor. We looked more at the size of the program / specific department or “college” (honors college, college of arts and sciences etc) they’d be in. We thought the ideal was something big enough there’d be a good variety of people so they could find their tribe and with a good selection of courses and majors but small enough where they’d be more than a number.

Class size, accessibility of professors, and support services were all important considerations. Lots of 200 person seminars with 50 person breakouts taught by a grad student wouldn’t have been a good fit for our college kid.

Thanks to COVID many therapists and Drs now do telehealth so we haven’t taken advantage of the on campus health resources yet. Lots of college students have anxiety and depression and other issues, and it’s more okay to talk about them these days, so the couple times things have come up professors have been accommodating.

Fortunately for us there are a lot of really good schools within about 2 hours of where we live so we did not have to trade off selectively. We were willing to expand the radius, if necessary, to the point of spending a lot on plane tickets to enable frequent in person check ins. Going to one of the better schools they got in to, where there was a strong fit and other things we liked about the environment, was important to them (to show they could do it / build confidence) and us (our experience has been that going to a better school opens more doors).

We ruled out the community college route in our case even though our area has good ones with a feeder path to the top in state schools. The reasons included we wanted our kid to live away from home to get experience adulting, our kid’s strong preference to start at a 4 year school, concerns they’d be more socially isolated transferring in to a 4 year school as a junior, driving in congestion causes them anxiety, and the potential to get in with a less driven / less aspirational group of friends at cc. For other kids in similar circumstances, community college first could be the right path so I wouldn’t rule it out.

Retention rate / on time graduation was an important metric when considering schools since we believe it creates positive peer pressure and indicates the administration wants to move people through the program to graduation.

Cost wasn’t a major factor in our decision. It was all about doing what we can to set our kid up to be as successful and productive after college as possible. If you can afford it up the 529 contribution or put more aside in taxable. Hope this helps.
leo383
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Re: College Considerations & Mental Health

Post by leo383 »

This is all a long way off.

Some hand holding small we'll-take-care-of-your-kid private schools are actually wildly intense pressure cookers, and some big state schools are full of support and help. You just can't generalize.
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