Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

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vveat
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Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by vveat »

Context: daughter is in 8th grade, and after doing some research this year we had decided she would remain in the public high school. She is all A student, best in math in her (honors) class, but her interests lie not in STEM, but in sociology/ history/ psychology. She likes science only as it pertains to these areas (biology aspects related to psychology, chem analysis for historical artifacts dating, that kind of stuff).

The high school decision was based on (1) decent public school - NJ is good state and our district is within top 50, daughter is excited about the classes they offer, incl. the AP ones; (2) most of the good private schools around seem to have technical orientation and push sports/extracurriculars she is not into, she spoke to some students there; (3) she likes using outside courses for her interests in CTY John Hopkins, Outschool, Khan Academy, we are subscribed to Wondrium, etc, etc.

However, it seems a lot of her classmates (and all of her close friends) are right now in a frenzy around the application process for the county votech school. It’s called UCVTS, and has 11 schools, incl. a magnet science/math/technology, an allied health, a law and justice, a sustainability science, an information technology and others. It’s very highly rated, I think the magnet is 4th or 6th in state and 83rd nationally among high schools. We had looked at it previously and decided not to pursue because of the STEM angle, and she is not excited about the other school areas (maybe health, but they seem to be more emergency medicine oriented). Anyway, the peer pressure is getting to her and last night I signed her up for an info session.

I am not familiar with the high school system, neither me nor husband went to grade school or college in US:
- why are votech schools of such interest, should a student not interested in particular trade or committed to a profession, pursue them anyway?
- Am I wrong not to encourage her more to try a good STEM school like this magnet one? They still offer the broad range of courses, so she could still do want she wanted, but perhaps get good math and science teachers to get her interest?

Any experience with such schools? What am I missing?

Thank you
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I don’t know anything about the schools (unless you were more descriptive about your location), but having had a late developing student who now very much enjoys his math intensive occupation, I’d be careful about giving too much weight to an 8th grader’s interests. The interests will probably change multiple times.

NJ is a large state. I think you can allow more specificity without endangering your anonymity.
Last edited by TomatoTomahto on Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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livesoft
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by livesoft »

Two anecdotes:

In my day, I went to public high school that I decades later found out was in the top 100 in the USA. At the time, it was just no big deal to me, but it must have shaped me somehow. Not only was the high school great for STEM with many AP courses in the 1970s, but it has Vocational Technology curriculum including cosmetology, auto mechanics, and electronics. I had no choice but to go to this high school because it was within walking distance of my home.

Votech to me is trade school and not college-bound. What you described to me is still college-bound, isn't it?

Fast forward to recent times: My daughter was zoned to an outstanding high school and said, "I don't want to apply to the magnet high school", but then she found out all her friends were doing so, so she panicked and applied. She went to the Magnet high school with her friends and did well. OTOH, many of her friends went to her zoned high school and did just as well. And everybody remained friends. Also the magnet STEM high school ended up with fewer national merit scholars than the excellent well-rounded non-STEM high school. But that's because this area is stuffed full of parents with the demographics and socio-economic status to make it so.

I think the bottom line is that your daughter will do extremely well no matter what choice is made. Opportunities will open with either choice and other opportunities will close with either choice. You are lucky to have such good choices.
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mr_brightside
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by mr_brightside »

not sure if this is the case in your area

just be aware -- sometimes the slick way BOEs go about raising the 'test scores' of under performing schools is to brand them 'Magnet Schools', 'IB Schools', 'STEM Schools', 'Performing / Fine Arts' or whatever.

the idea being the strategy will attractive 'better' students from throughout the district -- and as you can imagine the schools are many times in the rougher parts of the district where school performance is not important to the neighborhood kids. but the 'imported' better students help raise the test scores / metrics so the educators look successful.

IMO if you are zoned for a great HS you should stick with that. but i also understand the peer pressure angle.

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vveat
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by vveat »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:00 am I don’t know anything about the schools (unless you were more descriptive about your location), but having had a late developing student who now very much enjoys his math intensive occupation, I’d be careful about giving too much weight to an 8th grader’s interests. The interests will probably change multiple times.

NJ is a large state. I think you can allow more specificity without endangering your anonymity.
Sorry, I actually thought by naming the school I was very specific - UCVTS is Union County, this is central New Jersey and includes towns like Cranford, Westfield, Scotch Plains, New Providence, etc - school districts in top 50 or so in NJ. We are in one of them.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

vveat wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:17 am Sorry, I actually thought by naming the school I was very specific - UCVTS is Union County, this is central New Jersey and includes towns like Cranford, Westfield, Scotch Plains, New Providence, etc - school districts in top 50 or so in NJ. We are in one of them.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Kagord »

+1 on the interests change. My daughter was into STEM in middle school (attended summer STEM camps at several universities in 7th/8th grade), but then, after AP organic chemistry/physics early in high school, decided she didn't like it (she did get As, and 5s on the AP exam), and moved into the prelaw AP track in high school, which stuck.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by alex_686 »

vveat wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:47 am I am not familiar with the high school system, neither me nor husband went to grade school or college in US:
- why are votech schools of such interest, should a student not interested in particular trade or committed to a profession, pursue them anyway?
- Am I wrong not to encourage her more to try a good STEM school like this magnet one? They still offer the broad range of courses, so she could still do want she wanted, but perhaps get good math and science teachers to get her interest?
I am not familiar with this particular school.

However, almost all high schools in the US are "general" in nature. The windowing process for college or practical skills does not happen here. Even a vo-tech high school will offer all of the course needed to get into college and will not be considered a negative in the admissions process.

If may even be viewed as a positive depending on the emphasis chosen and the college being pursued. This is a tricky one. I know a few kids who attended practical based agriculture based high schools. Lots of biology based science, many went to a land grant college in biology, and wound up in medical research. Playing with tractors lead a few to become mechanical engineers. But these were kind of the exceptions.

That being said, I would push my child towards the magnet school. Is she interested in any of the specific programs? Are those programs vigorous? Or is she just following her friends?
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by dak »

I would send my kid to the school where she would be surrounded by the hardest working and nicest kids. Peer pressure at that age is immense, and the constant influence from good kids is really a blessing. We found exactly that atmosphere for our daughters in the music program at our local high school - that provided an anchor for them.

Unless these specialized schools have an exceptional pipeline into a particular University that she wishes to attend, their focus on academic areas in which she has little interest might backfire for her.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Nyc10036 »

Odd.
When I was in high school which was in the 80s, vocational tech schools were for students who did not plan on going on to college.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Pdxnative »

If the local HS offers strong AP or IB program and attracts some of the bright students then I don’t see any compelling reason to go to a specialized magnet, especially one so clearly focused on pre-engineering for what sounds like a social science and humanities student. IB would be a better fit.

However, if in practice all the good students are going to the magnet, it raises the question of what the peer group will look like at the local HS. You can ask other parents with older kids to get a sense of this. Also, if kids from the local HS are attending some of the selective schools that’s an indication of an academic culture and focus (I’m not saying one should measure HS quality based on Ivy admissions, just that a HS that sends everyone to the local community college will not have the same sort of academic culture as the HS that sends kids to a range of schools).
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Pdxnative wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:28 pm If the local HS offers strong AP or IB program and attracts some of the bright students then I don’t see any compelling reason to go to a specialized magnet, especially one so clearly focused on pre-engineering for what sounds like a social science and humanities student. IB would be a better fit.
Absolutely agree with the IB portion of your post. My son did it (not a social science / humanities student) and he got serious non-STEM chops out of it. IB math is so-so. I don’t have quite the same regard for AP, as I’ve seen a wider variance in students when compared to IB (but nothing other than informal observation to base this on).
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Pdxnative »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:18 pm
Pdxnative wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:28 pm If the local HS offers strong AP or IB program and attracts some of the bright students then I don’t see any compelling reason to go to a specialized magnet, especially one so clearly focused on pre-engineering for what sounds like a social science and humanities student. IB would be a better fit.
Absolutely agree with the IB portion of your post. My son did it (not a social science / humanities student) and he got serious non-STEM chops out of it. IB math is so-so. I don’t have quite the same regard for AP, as I’ve seen a wider variance in students when compared to IB (but nothing other than informal observation to base this on).
Yes, agree with you on IB math. It’s not ideal for the really strong math students. I’ve seen some math-oriented students supplement with summer courses. Or in a few cases drop the IBD in order to replace Math HL with local college course, while continuing to take the rest of the IB courses (not sure if all IB schools are set up to allow this though). And then some of the math whizzes in our neighborhood just decided to coast a bit in math during HS to focus on the other IB areas (which were more challenging for them). Things turned out well for them, too, once they got into college math.

I also agree AP can vary a lot more, but my thinking is that a HS that is offering a lot of AP courses, including staffing and filling courses like Calc BC, is probably catering to an academically-oriented student body. So a strong student would be appropriately challenged by the coursework and likely would find a peer group of motivated students.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Pdxnative wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:51 pm Yes, agree with you on IB math. It’s not ideal for the really strong math students. I’ve seen some math-oriented students supplement with summer courses. Or in a few cases drop the IBD in order to replace Math HL with local college course, while continuing to take the rest of the IB courses (not sure if all IB schools are set up to allow this though).
It became an issue for my son, but I think that eventually he was allowed to attend math class but work on supplemental material during class time.

I still strongly recommend IB, especially for kids who will go on to academically rigorous colleges. My son learned how to do what I call reading list triage: determine which reading assignments need to be read carefully, which can be scanned, and which to ignore or share notes with classmates on. In college, the reading lists were sometimes brutal, and triage was necessary.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by BrendanP »

Here's my perspective as a teacher who grew up in CT suburbs and has taught for a decade in South Bronx HS.

I think that you should seriously consider a magnet. In NYS they realized it was a mistake dismantling the vocational schools and so there has been a big push to expand CTE(Career and Technical Education) offerings. These are supposed to prepare students for both College and Career. IMO students who are motivated and have enough support will do pretty well regardless of the school they attend. The benefit of the magnet is it could be more heterogeneous student body and they might get exposure to careers of interest (Career areas are also helpful) As I tell my students, it's also really important to be exposed to careers that you don't like.

CTE also has an emphasis on Work-Based Learning and professional skills, aiming to expose all students to the responsibilities of the workplace which is Invaluable.

Personally, I also think 8th grade is a little too early to be so decisive about your future careers.

My belief is that attending the Magnet would open up more possibilities and exposure to new things than attending the zoned school.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Ben Mathew »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:25 pm I still strongly recommend IB, especially for kids who will go on to academically rigorous colleges. My son learned how to do what I call reading list triage: determine which reading assignments need to be read carefully, which can be scanned, and which to ignore or share notes with classmates on. In college, the reading lists were sometimes brutal, and triage was necessary.
I wish teachers would triage the readings themselves before assigning it. These soul crushing workloads on fifteen year olds serve no educational purpose. It's simply the outcome of a deeply dysfunctional system.

The move to digital has greatly exacerbated the problem. Physical paper and time spent grading created some sort of a physical constraint on the volume of work that could be assigned. Digital is invisible and there is no limit. There is an infinite stream of problems (of variable quality) on the textbook website that is automatically graded. So there is no limit to what can be demanded of students. In competitive high schools where students will do whatever work they are assigned, the demands have become insane. Just because a fifteen year old will stay up past midnight every night doing the work doesn't mean it's a good idea to assign that much work.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

vveat wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:47 am Context: daughter is in 8th grade, and after doing some research this year we had decided she would remain in the public high school. She is all A student, best in math in her (honors) class, but her interests lie not in STEM, but in sociology/ history/ psychology. She likes science only as it pertains to these areas (biology aspects related to psychology, chem analysis for historical artifacts dating, that kind of stuff).

The high school decision was based on (1) decent public school - NJ is good state and our district is within top 50, daughter is excited about the classes they offer, incl. the AP ones; (2) most of the good private schools around seem to have technical orientation and push sports/extracurriculars she is not into, she spoke to some students there; (3) she likes using outside courses for her interests in CTY John Hopkins, Outschool, Khan Academy, we are subscribed to Wondrium, etc, etc.

However, it seems a lot of her classmates (and all of her close friends) are right now in a frenzy around the application process for the county votech school. It’s called UCVTS, and has 11 schools, incl. a magnet science/math/technology, an allied health, a law and justice, a sustainability science, an information technology and others. It’s very highly rated, I think the magnet is 4th or 6th in state and 83rd nationally among high schools. We had looked at it previously and decided not to pursue because of the STEM angle, and she is not excited about the other school areas (maybe health, but they seem to be more emergency medicine oriented). Anyway, the peer pressure is getting to her and last night I signed her up for an info session.

I am not familiar with the high school system, neither me nor husband went to grade school or college in US:
- why are votech schools of such interest, should a student not interested in particular trade or committed to a profession, pursue them anyway?
- Am I wrong not to encourage her more to try a good STEM school like this magnet one? They still offer the broad range of courses, so she could still do want she wanted, but perhaps get good math and science teachers to get her interest?

Any experience with such schools? What am I missing?

Thank you
Different area of the country -- but assuming you mean not a votech (pushing towards trades) but a magnet school that's 'theme' is STEM, it's probably a good choice even for a non-pre-engineering student. She'll have good, motivated classmates and challenging math and science courses. She's in 8th grade. Her interests will likely change, but there is absolutely no harm done to her future interests in sociology/history/psychology by being strong in math and science in high school. The only reason I'd rule it out is if it's skimping on a well-rounded range of courses, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Whether it's good for her depends on your alternatives. If she has a good IB program available to her or a strong AP program, then she'll have classmates who love learning, and that IME is 90% of the importance of the benefit of the magnet. Kids push each other.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Ben Mathew wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:05 pm I wish teachers would triage the readings themselves before assigning it. These soul crushing workloads on fifteen year olds serve no educational purpose. It's simply the outcome of a deeply dysfunctional system.
I agree and disagree. 15 year olds might be a bit young, and the “soul crushing” reading lists are probably due to laziness on the teacher’s part and/or a lack of coordination in the curriculum.

However, as the kids approach senior year, the unintended consequence of overstuffed reading lists is that a lifelong skill of triage is established. I don’t doubt that many of us have had to separate emails into such piles, determined which to delegate to someone, which to read carefully, and which to “bin.”
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by firebirdparts »

vveat wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:47 am
Any experience with such schools? What am I missing?

Thank you
I don't know. My ancestors came to North America during the ice age, and in all that time I haven't really heard of mixing a vocational school with STEM education, nor of any confusion between the two. It would be tons of fun, but for the past 100 years the schools have worked pretty hard to separate those two groups of people. I don't think it was anything insidious. In general, the requirements for college admission in science or engineering take up 100% of your time. Once in a while you'll meet somebody with a university education that took a few vocational classes and went to summer school, or took one that was required for everybody. Combining those two groups for some social purpose might be somebody's vision as Brendan says.

maybe they're just trying to put a new spin on it, or maybe calling it a "vocational" offering is misguided. I had to replace the water heater last night myself. I certainly wouldn't discourage anybody from learning to solder. If all your friends are there, then it could take your life in an entirely new direction, which might be good. Life's a minefield of choices.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:35 pm Her interests will likely change, but there is absolutely no harm done to her future interests in sociology/history/psychology by being strong in math and science in high school.
Having tutored Psych students in statistics, I think the probability is > 95% that a psych student won’t understand what a T-Test signifies.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by knowledge »

My sense is that people apply to schools because they like the matriculation list..at least for the general magnet schools. I have no idea about the vocational schools.

I went to a magnet HS, and I enjoyed the experience. By any standard measure, the cohort that I went to school with has grown up to be "successful." While I recall folks discussing the pressures of attending such a school, it never felt that way to me - my friends and I were pretty laid back. The workload was high, but manageable. I think clearly not being the brightest kid in the room was, a good humbling lesson.

I made some good lifelong friends and look back on it fondly. I am mindful of that as my kids start their schooling, so will look into it as they get closer to that age.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by vveat »

getthatmarshmallow wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:35 pm
Different area of the country -- but assuming you mean not a votech (pushing towards trades) but a magnet school that's 'theme' is STEM, it's probably a good choice even for a non-pre-engineering student. She'll have good, motivated classmates and challenging math and science courses. She's in 8th grade. Her interests will likely change, but there is absolutely no harm done to her future interests in sociology/history/psychology by being strong in math and science in high school. The only reason I'd rule it out is if it's skimping on a well-rounded range of courses, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
The magnet does offer broad courses and AP classes too (I counted 17 total in language arts and social studies, vs. 39 for the regular high school), but the academic program is heavily weighted to engineering courses and the mission statement mentions engineering-based specialized career: Mandatory are Technology & design, Engineering & Digital Modeling, Programming and Advanced manufacturing, Architecture and CAD. Students become AutoCAD certified by end of freshman year and Fusion 360 by end of sophomore. And electives have all varieties of engineering - aerospace, civil, electrical, biomedical, etc.

I went to a math high school (in another country) and we had specialized streams for biology, chemistry and physics - but it just meant one extra class a day in the specialty. Here it seems more overwhelming.

Very helpful comments from all, I've been passing them to my daughter as well.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Matahari »

OP, I agree heartily with an earlier poster who pointed out that 8th grade is too early for someone to know about career interests. If your daughter is tops in math, she is fortunate! and well situated to investigate subjects that she has not even considered but in which her skills could take her farther.

You should send her to a school that provides an extensive advanced curriculum which will provide her with options in the upper grades and where she will be surrounded by highly-motivated kids like her. Summer and extra-curricular enrichment are great opportunities but the summer ones especially (such as CTY or Duke TIP) take place outside of her principal HS habitat, where she can form lasting friendships.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by FactualFran »

You should compare the information in the Academic Program Guide for that magnet high school to the equivalent information for a standard high school in the school district where you live. Page 5 of the guide has a grid of required courses in various subject areas.

You are a better judge than others who post to this forum whether the magnet high school, with its required courses in Technology & Design, Engineering & Digital Modeling, Programming, Advanced Manufacturing & Project Management, Architecture, and Architectural CAD, would be a good choice for your daughter.

[Edit: corrected list of required courses to that of the magnet high school rather than the Academy for Information Technology.]
Last edited by FactualFran on Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by HereToLearn »

FactualFran wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:55 pm You should compare the information in the Academic Program Guide for that magnet high school to the equivalent information for a standard high school in the school district where you live. Page 5 of the guide has a grid of required courses in various subject areas.

You are a better judge than others who post to this forum whether the magnet high school, with its required courses in computer science, business, and finance, would be a good choice for your daughter.
Agree with these comments and will also suggest that the OP pull the School Profile for his own neighborhood school and the potential magnet school. My children attended a very strong public high school and while they could have attended a magnet school in a neighboring town, the overall academics would have been at a much lower level.

School Profiles are not uniform, so you may need to contact Guidance to ask for any info not provided, but at a minimum, the profiles should include: GPA distribution; AP & Honors courses offered and weighting, if any, for those courses; SAT & ACT score distributions; AP score distributions; # of National Merit Finalists and Commended students; and post-graduation plans. This information will help you measure the rigor of the programs offered at each school.
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

Another resource: parents of current students. Do they like the school? What are their kids like? Where do they go to college afterwards? That will give you a better sense of what's a good fit for her.
TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:45 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:35 pm Her interests will likely change, but there is absolutely no harm done to her future interests in sociology/history/psychology by being strong in math and science in high school.
Having tutored Psych students in statistics, I think the probability is > 95% that a psych student won’t understand what a T-Test signifies.
I bet I can guess the error bars....
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Re: Magnet STEM in a votech high school - worth pursuing?

Post by Kagord »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:45 pm
getthatmarshmallow wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:35 pm Her interests will likely change, but there is absolutely no harm done to her future interests in sociology/history/psychology by being strong in math and science in high school.
Having tutored Psych students in statistics, I think the probability is > 95% that a psych student won’t understand what a T-Test signifies.
Why bother with a T-Test, when there's 99.99438235% material bias that makes the whole thing worthless anyways.
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