What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
For financial advice, Bogleheads is hands down the best forum I've found on the internet.
What is the equivalent for buying cars? Specifically:
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric
2) Other rebates from manufacturer or dealerships
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc?
What is the equivalent for buying cars? Specifically:
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric
2) Other rebates from manufacturer or dealerships
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc?
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
I haven't come across one central location to gather the same breadth of insights for car buying as Vanguard has for investing. I have noticed that a question like this, a specific car question, does find a way to get a well-rounded answer on this forum.
For example, below is the experience that I had when I lived in LA and purchased a vehicle eligible for manufacture incentives, as well as state and federal tax advantages in 2018. The incentives and market have changed significantly since then, but the conceptual framework should still apply.
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric: I researched the IRS pages and car forums for the specific car I wanted. I also had the advantage of having peers in the tax industry to help answer questions. In your situation, I would research specific IRS pages to help answer your questions then find advice on specific answers on a forum such as this.
2) Other rebates from manufacturers or dealerships: I first found out what manufacture I wanted a vehicle from first, then honed in their deals. I opened up the dealership's page to find all of their specials. The purpose of these incentives is to get customers to purchase cars; so it should be very easy to find these rebates/incentives on the manufacturer's webpage. I found that the sales reps were less knowledgeable about the deals than I was unless I quoted a specific deal or package.
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms: In order to get the best price I created an account on Cars.com and utilized their matching program. 10 minutes within setting up search criteria I was called by 3 different dealerships offering their best prices. I waited for dealers to send me the lowest price offer then used that offer sheet as a negotiation tool at my dealer of choice. This practice is probably less likely to be successful in today's market but the theory is to shop around to find the best base price before piling on the rebates and other incentives. You should be able to do the bulk of this work via email or phone calls.
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins: I would base this on when you absolutely need a vehicle and less on the market.
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc? I utilized Youtube for owner experiences, specific car forums by typing in the name of the car and then "common problems", and also talking with others who have owned the vehicle.
For example, below is the experience that I had when I lived in LA and purchased a vehicle eligible for manufacture incentives, as well as state and federal tax advantages in 2018. The incentives and market have changed significantly since then, but the conceptual framework should still apply.
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric: I researched the IRS pages and car forums for the specific car I wanted. I also had the advantage of having peers in the tax industry to help answer questions. In your situation, I would research specific IRS pages to help answer your questions then find advice on specific answers on a forum such as this.
2) Other rebates from manufacturers or dealerships: I first found out what manufacture I wanted a vehicle from first, then honed in their deals. I opened up the dealership's page to find all of their specials. The purpose of these incentives is to get customers to purchase cars; so it should be very easy to find these rebates/incentives on the manufacturer's webpage. I found that the sales reps were less knowledgeable about the deals than I was unless I quoted a specific deal or package.
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms: In order to get the best price I created an account on Cars.com and utilized their matching program. 10 minutes within setting up search criteria I was called by 3 different dealerships offering their best prices. I waited for dealers to send me the lowest price offer then used that offer sheet as a negotiation tool at my dealer of choice. This practice is probably less likely to be successful in today's market but the theory is to shop around to find the best base price before piling on the rebates and other incentives. You should be able to do the bulk of this work via email or phone calls.
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins: I would base this on when you absolutely need a vehicle and less on the market.
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc? I utilized Youtube for owner experiences, specific car forums by typing in the name of the car and then "common problems", and also talking with others who have owned the vehicle.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
You mean a place where someone can post that they're looking for a new SUV and half dozen people will ask them to consider a used Civic?
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Don't pick a single car. Buy all the cars on the market. 96% of individual cars go down in value yearly. But the whole market of cars on average appreciates 7% in real dollars.dukeblue219 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:57 am You mean a place where someone can post that they're looking for a new SUV and half dozen people will ask them to consider a used Civic?
How big is your garage?
43% Total Stock Market | 53% Consumer Staples | 4% Short Term Reserves
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Wow--an indexing approach to car-buying. That's a new one.homebuyer6426 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:40 amDon't pick a single car. Buy all the cars on the market. 96% of individual cars go down in value yearly. But the whole market of cars on average appreciates 7% in real dollars.dukeblue219 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:57 am You mean a place where someone can post that they're looking for a new SUV and half dozen people will ask them to consider a used Civic?
How big is your garage?
50% VTSAX | 25% VTIAX | 25% VBTLX (retirement), 25% VTEAX (taxable)
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Edmunds.com and cars.com for reviews by owners
/askcarsales is amusing, but salty
If you want info on an individual make/model the best is to find an enthusiast forum for that marque.
Rennlist, benzforum, ih8mud, etc.
Consumer Reports "jumped the shark" ages ago.
If it is a specialty/enthusiast car, read comments on BringATrailer.
/askcarsales is amusing, but salty
If you want info on an individual make/model the best is to find an enthusiast forum for that marque.
Rennlist, benzforum, ih8mud, etc.
Consumer Reports "jumped the shark" ages ago.
If it is a specialty/enthusiast car, read comments on BringATrailer.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
I’ve always found Car Enthusist forums as the best source for this sort of information, assuming you already know what year/make/model/options you are looking for
This content is for entertainment purposes only
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
not really going to find anything equivalent.
you're just going to have to shop around in a geography as large as you feel comfortable with
deals vary significantly -- as do fees / taxes, etc by region / state . so the deal a guy got in Phoenix may not be realistic in Orlando, even considering exact same make / model... apples / oranges and all that. even time of month / year can matter
and these past months all bets are off -- the car sale industry has been significantly impacted by a number of unusual circumstances....
IMO if you can get anything reasonably close to MSRP on most makes / models (IOW no regional adjustment / market adjustment) with no BS add-on fees you're probably doing ok. especially if the process is relatively painless.
2 years ago +/- you could compete numerous dealers against one another and potentially save thousands. that's not really realistic these days -- although it may be possible on less demand makes / models.
of course try to get the best deal you can by all means -- just don't feel like a failure if your car buying success from 5 years ago can't be replicated in today's market. and used car prices are pretty shocking so going that route isn't much more attractive.
good luck--
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you're just going to have to shop around in a geography as large as you feel comfortable with
deals vary significantly -- as do fees / taxes, etc by region / state . so the deal a guy got in Phoenix may not be realistic in Orlando, even considering exact same make / model... apples / oranges and all that. even time of month / year can matter
and these past months all bets are off -- the car sale industry has been significantly impacted by a number of unusual circumstances....
IMO if you can get anything reasonably close to MSRP on most makes / models (IOW no regional adjustment / market adjustment) with no BS add-on fees you're probably doing ok. especially if the process is relatively painless.
2 years ago +/- you could compete numerous dealers against one another and potentially save thousands. that's not really realistic these days -- although it may be possible on less demand makes / models.
of course try to get the best deal you can by all means -- just don't feel like a failure if your car buying success from 5 years ago can't be replicated in today's market. and used car prices are pretty shocking so going that route isn't much more attractive.
good luck--
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
6) Alternatives: https://www.moneycrashers.com/living-without-car/PWB wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 am For financial advice, Bogleheads is hands down the best forum I've found on the internet.
What is the equivalent for buying cars? Specifically:
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric
2) Other rebates from manufacturer or dealerships
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc?
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Hmm... it's not the same thing: if you buy stocks, you increase your net worth down the road. If you buy car, you decrease your net worth. If you buy more car than you need to get from Point A to Point B, you essentially exchange money for luxury.PWB wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 am For financial advice, Bogleheads is hands down the best forum I've found on the internet.
What is the equivalent for buying cars? Specifically:
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric
2) Other rebates from manufacturer or dealerships
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc?
If you really want to find a common point, the only thing I can think of is keep the expense low. Like VTI has 0.03% expense ratio. Try to keep your car expense (cost of the car, insurance, repair & maintenance, etc.) under 1% of your net worth.
And how do you do it? Keep your current car as long as you can. Take it easy on your car, don't drive too hard, and don't race to the red light. Don't fall into the trap of new safety tech. They're just gimmicks to lure you into buying new car.
Time is the ultimate currency.
- dodecahedron
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
This is my approach. Also, a big one for me: keep the miles driven down to make the car last longer. (Combine errands, consider whether I can have something delivered for free instead of driving somewhere to purchase it.) Every time I am about to drive somewhere, ask myself if the trip is necessary--is it possible to walk instead (or, when public health conditions permit, take the bus.)H-Town wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:13 am If you really want to find a common point, the only thing I can think of is keep the expense low. Like VTI has 0.03% expense ratio. Try to keep your car expense (cost of the car, insurance, repair & maintenance, etc.) under 1% of your net worth.
And how do you do it? Keep your current car as long as you can. Take it easy on your car, don't drive too hard, and don't race to the red light.
Our two-driver household has a 2003 and 2007 Honda Accord, both with well under 100K miles on them (most of those miles put on by my late husband before his death eight years ago. He was much a more enthusiastic driver than we--his wife and daughter--are. My daughter also has the option of biking.)
We think about the environmental as well as the financial costs of our driving decisions. We realize that newer cars get more MPG but the environmental impact of their manufacture also has to be taken into account.
Not at all sure I entirely agree about this part. I do think backup cameras genuinely add to safety and believe it may be especially important for older drivers. I wonder about whether a retrofit would be worthwhile, but meanwhile I remind myself that driving fewer miles and a cautious approach to driving also add to safety. But I am glad that my mom (approaching 90 and a more enthusiastic driver than my daughter and I) got herself a new Prius in 2019.Don't fall into the trap of new safety tech. They're just gimmicks to lure you into buying new car.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
I agree that those who need backup camera should get the car that has backup camera. My little trick is that you make a good observation of your surrounding before you enter the car. Look for incoming cars, pedestrians, things that would obstruct your car, etc. And then when you back out, you have a good sense of what to expect.Not at all sure I entirely agree about this part. I do think backup cameras genuinely add to safety and believe it may be especially important for older drivers. I wonder about whether a retrofit would be worthwhile, but meanwhile I remind myself that driving fewer miles and a cautious approach to driving also add to safety.Don't fall into the trap of new safety tech. They're just gimmicks to lure you into buying new car.
Objectively, I don't find any safety techs (lane keep assist, blind spot detector, forward crash avoidance, etc.) has any value for me at the moment. Maybe 30 or 40 years down the road things may change, who know?
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Datsun B-210dukeblue219 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:57 am You mean a place where someone can post that they're looking for a new SUV and half dozen people will ask them to consider a used Civic?
j
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
For the successful BH, the one you want. For others, the one you can afford.
By the time you know enough to choose a good financial adviser, you don't need one. | bogleheads.org is my advisor: The ER is 0.0% and the advice always solid.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Personally I feel a test drives are worth a lot more than reviews. In addition, there are many who ask for opinions/advice on which car to buy here. The problem with that is two fold. You don't know who you're getting advice from since nobody freely gives out their personal information. So a 70 year retired guy living in some overcrowded city asking for a advice on which car to buy might be getting advice from a 19 year old girl living out in the country.. And vice versa. The other is getting objective opinion as most people don't want to admit they made a bad but expensive purchase or they're very brand loyal.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
leasehackr.com is a good resource for those looking to lease a vehicle.
While I prefer to own, there are good economic reasons to lease a vehicle. Under certain market conditions when manufacturers have excess capacity and need to clear inventory, leasing can be a great way to snag a bargain, especially for business owners and the self-employed who can deduct the lease payment as an operating expense.
While I prefer to own, there are good economic reasons to lease a vehicle. Under certain market conditions when manufacturers have excess capacity and need to clear inventory, leasing can be a great way to snag a bargain, especially for business owners and the self-employed who can deduct the lease payment as an operating expense.
- lthenderson
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
To me the Boglehead approach is to follow advice on investing your portfolio so when it comes time to buying a vehicle, you don't have to worry about saving every nickel and dime on a depreciating asset. Worrying about every penny on anything you purchase consumes too much time and mental power that is simply isn't worth it.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Over time I've settled on preferring CPO vehicles now. They're often off lease with under 40,000 miles but are within a few years old. Not the cheapest option but somebody else has already taken the major depreciation hit, and they come with warranties for a year plus powertrain extensions, and you have the 'assurance' of the dealerships/manufacturers multi point inspection to avoid some of the issues you may find private sale. For me it's the sweet spot of quality price assurance and features.
Certainly other Bogles are happy to drive a 10+ yr old car that simply keeps running with minimal features but when I purchase I've enjoyed buying in the CPO market.
Certainly other Bogles are happy to drive a 10+ yr old car that simply keeps running with minimal features but when I purchase I've enjoyed buying in the CPO market.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Been there. Done that.Sandtrap wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:41 amDatsun B-210dukeblue219 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:57 am You mean a place where someone can post that they're looking for a new SUV and half dozen people will ask them to consider a used Civic?
j
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
In my experience, having done online research for many auto purchases over the last two decades, phxjcc is right on the mark.phxjcc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:01 am Edmunds.com and cars.com for reviews by owners
/askcarsales is amusing, but salty
If you want info on an individual make/model the best is to find an enthusiast forum for that marque. Rennlist, benzforum, ih8mud, etc.
Consumer Reports "jumped the shark" ages ago.
If it is a specialty/enthusiast car, read comments on BringATrailer.
I would add that, in recent years, I have found many helpful reviewers on YouTube, e.g., Alex on Autos https://www.youtube.com/user/TTACVideo and the Fast Lane Car https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6S0jA ... 8ZzLfva12g sites.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Brand new Honda Accord or Civic/Toyota Camry or Corolla, depending on if you want the car bigger or smaller. Pay cash, negotiate hard (which, in the current market might be tough to do) and keep it 10 years. Rinse and repeat. That's about as Bogleheadish for cars as it gets.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Same here..Edmund's and some of the YouTube reviewers. CR is essentially bird cage liner( if its even in printed form anymore, I saw one at the library couple yrs ago.)hsmith wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:51 pmIn my experience, having done online research for many auto purchases over the last two decades, phxjcc is right on the mark.phxjcc wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 8:01 am Edmunds.com and cars.com for reviews by owners
/askcarsales is amusing, but salty
If you want info on an individual make/model the best is to find an enthusiast forum for that marque. Rennlist, benzforum, ih8mud, etc.
Consumer Reports "jumped the shark" ages ago.
If it is a specialty/enthusiast car, read comments on BringATrailer.
I would add that, in recent years, I have found many helpful reviewers on YouTube, e.g., Alex on Autos https://www.youtube.com/user/TTACVideo and the Fast Lane Car https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6S0jA ... 8ZzLfva12g sites.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Test drives, car reviews, and aggregate data all serve different purposes. You learn nothing about things like reliability fro reviews and test drives. Reviewers who spend a week with a car notice things that don't show in a test drive and can help you figure out things to look for. And the test drive is needed because you are somewhat unique with different preferences. One thing to worry about is that reviews and the like can bias you. Everyone else saying X car handles great will bias you but it might turn out that all the cars are over your threshold. Those car reviewers who spend time driving 50k+ sports cars on a regular basis can have vastly different ideas of what acceptable is. Same thing for levels of luxury.
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Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
The Boglehead way to buy a car is to:
1) not spend more than 10% of your net worth,
2) not go into debt, pay straight-up cash instead,
3) buy a depreciated 2-3 year old used car (unless it’s a new Honda, Toyota, or Subaru, which manage to keep high value during their first couple of years), and
4) drive the car for at least 15 years or as long as you safely can.
1) not spend more than 10% of your net worth,
2) not go into debt, pay straight-up cash instead,
3) buy a depreciated 2-3 year old used car (unless it’s a new Honda, Toyota, or Subaru, which manage to keep high value during their first couple of years), and
4) drive the car for at least 15 years or as long as you safely can.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
The last few cars we have purchased, had forums aimed at that make/model. They each had a topic specifically to post what you paid. These were enormously helpful. We drive 2 hours based on the information found there and save three thousand dollars. In the case of a plug in vehicle, there is also a thread about federal and state rebates.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Since the Honda Accord was mentioned, thought it might be interesting to see the total maintenance cost of running a 2003 Honda Accord, with all work gone through the dealer, on this post here. The VIN is there unhidden so if someone wanted to run a Carfax to verify they could do it. https://twitter.com/ugathom/status/1479 ... 24835?s=20
$27,772 for maintaining a Honda Accord for 19 years for 300,506 miles. This comes out to about 9.2 cents a mile, which the poster thinks is a scandal but I think is quite reasonable for a dealer maintained vehicle, which presumably included all tires, oil changes, brakes, wipers, filters, batteries, etc. at the dealer rate including minor repairs like alternator replacement (three alternators according to the thread). Most people can do better by going to an independent shop, but this is a good budgeting tool for the life of purchase of a Boglehead approved vehicle. The car was deemed fully depreciated and drivable so the cost for that is also 9 cents a mile. 18.2 cents a mile maintenance + fixed cost is a smashingly good deal.
$27,772 for maintaining a Honda Accord for 19 years for 300,506 miles. This comes out to about 9.2 cents a mile, which the poster thinks is a scandal but I think is quite reasonable for a dealer maintained vehicle, which presumably included all tires, oil changes, brakes, wipers, filters, batteries, etc. at the dealer rate including minor repairs like alternator replacement (three alternators according to the thread). Most people can do better by going to an independent shop, but this is a good budgeting tool for the life of purchase of a Boglehead approved vehicle. The car was deemed fully depreciated and drivable so the cost for that is also 9 cents a mile. 18.2 cents a mile maintenance + fixed cost is a smashingly good deal.
Re: What is the "Bogleheads" for car purchases?
Sorry if I missed it in the comments but it would be helpful if there was a single site with government and manufacturer incentives all listed for your location and each manufacturer and model.PWB wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:11 am For financial advice, Bogleheads is hands down the best forum I've found on the internet.
What is the equivalent for buying cars? Specifically:
1) How to maximize government (federal, state, city?) rebates/cash incentives for going electric
2) Other rebates from manufacturer or dealerships
3) Other ways to get the best purchase price/terms
4) Strategic timing for purchases and/or trade-ins
5) Car reviews - reliability, performance, warrantees, etc?
For a model that's been around a while (or at least has components that have been) it can be beneficial to search for past problems, maybe on a manufacturer or model-specific forum.
Otherwise I think 90% of the information you read will be either outdated or not apply to your situation or the specific vehicle you're going to purchase. That applies to a number of the replies in this thread, too.