Nissan Leaf [review]

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linuxizer
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Nissan Leaf [review]

Post by linuxizer »

I’ve posted this claim before, but now it’s been made “official” by Consumer Reports. Insanely low maintenance costs, an insanely low purchase price, and both lower and more stable ongoing fuel costs:
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/used-nissa ... r-reports/

About 6 mo ago now I needed a second car for my ~5 mile commute. The only roads in are not safe to bike (I’ve bike commuted thousands of miles in big cities, trust me when I say it). Everyone I know said to get a used Toyota Corolla. It turns out, markets are efficient, and a used 2015ish Corolla with 50k miles on it costs $15k or more. Yikes. And

So I looked more into a Leaf, which I had been aware of previously. The 2011-2012 models have some weird quirks I didn’t want to deal with for the minimal discount they come with. The 2011-2014.5 models didn’t yet have the “lizard” battery and so had a lot of battery degradation in hot climates. The 2016-2018 models had steeply increasing battery capacity each year, and steep price increases on the used market to go with it. So that left me either looking through 2014’s and using Leaf Spy to try and find a late-year version with the Lizard battery, or getting a 2015.

Compared to a equivalent year and mileage (45k or so) Corolla, the Leaf’s TCO was about half using the blue book calculators, which still seemed to all project more maintenance needs than what online Leaf forums were suggesting was their experience, as the CR report confirms now.

I found a 2015 in good shape with <50k miles near me at a Jeep dealer in a nearby exurb. These guys were classic used car salesmen but aside from that purchase went fine, and knowing there was little to go wrong and no gas tank to pour sawdust in was actually really helpful in being comfortable buying from them. Talked them down from $9k to $8k even. They stiffed me on the charger so I bought another one off eBay ($150 for a Fiat charger) and then snagged a 6.6kw L2 charger for $290 and had it installed for $550. L2 charger is really completely unnecessary with a battery this small but it has helped me feel confident not charging the battery up all the time which should make it last longer (simple rule for battery management is try to keep it above 20% always, and don’t let it sit for more than a few days at 100%, aim for 80% or below).

It’s been great, and we have wound up using it for far more than just my commute. Day trips to gardens 15-25 miles away? Why burn gas?

It’s a bit cramped for 5 with a car seat, but it has a flexible 1/3 2/3 fold-down seat that gives it quite a bit of cargo capacity. Useful backup when the ICE SUV is in the shop as well.

We now go well over 2 months between gas station refills, and I don’t miss it.

Driving it is surprisingly fun. It has the solidity of the Crown Victoria I grew up with, unsurprising given it weighs almost 2 tons. Yet I raced a Porsche from a stoplight recently, and from 0-10mph we were neck in neck. It’s a tiny (100hp) motor, but all the torque in an EV is delivered right off the line, so it feels super punchy.

Overall, I can’t believe this car existed in 2015. It drives like a normal car, except better. I’ll likely replace the (still factory) tires soon, as they are too slippery on rainy days and are near the end of their lives anyway.

But basically I think if you’re still recommending a 100k mile Toyota by default as the Bogleheads choice, you’re living in the past. Pricing is crazy and there’s a better choice if the range needs work out (and they really will quite often—80 mile round-trip gets you quite far).

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JoMoney
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by JoMoney »

It is (or was) a "Clark Howard" car, (TV, radio, now podcast consumer advocate/finance pundit.)
Not so sure about Boglehead status. I see way too many posts on here with people discussing expensive cars.

FWIW, the last car I bought was a Hyundai. My prior car was a Toyota but the relative price point seemed a bit over their skis when I was shopping.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

Disagree. The Nissan Leaf makes a Toyota Prius look stylish. It is one of the uglier cars on the road. I don't understand why all of these automakers outside of Tesla are so terrible at making an electric vehicle that doesn't look terrible. It's like they secretly want you to hate electric cars so they can go on making gas vehicles. Take an Accord/Optima/Genesis body and make it electric - you will sell millions of those types of cars.

I submit that the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is the official car of Bogleheads. Value and style at an affordable price.

Edit: All of that criticism aside, the 2021 Leaf looks to be a big improvement in design. :happy
Last edited by 3CT_Paddler on Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
homebuyer6426
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by homebuyer6426 »

I would like to know more about the battery maintenance/replacement time, and any issues it might have in cold weather. We have snow half the year here, and I know my cell phone's lithium battery does not hold a good charge in freezing temperatures. Also, they say some batteries are damaged by charging them below freezing.
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Jags4186
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by Jags4186 »

A Boglehead car is one that a person can comfortably afford. Any car can be a Boglehead car. This isn't a FIRE forum although that is a big topic of conversation.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by oldcomputerguy »

This topic is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum.
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Orangutan
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by Orangutan »

3CT_Paddler wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:54 am Disagree. The Nissan Leaf makes a Toyota Prius look stylish. It is one of the uglier cars on the road. I don't understand why all of these automakers outside of Tesla are so terrible at making an electric vehicle that doesn't look terrible. It's like they secretly want you to hate electric cars so they can go on making gas vehicles. Take an Accord/Optima/Genesis body and make it electric - you will sell millions of those types of cars.

I submit that the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is the official car of Bogleheads. Value and style at an affordable price.

Edit: All of that criticism aside, the 2021 Leaf looks to be a big improvement in design. :happy
As someone currently on the dating market, I couldn't be paid to drive a Leaf (no offense).
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linuxizer
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by linuxizer »

homebuyer6426 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:56 am I would like to know more about the battery maintenance/replacement time, and any issues it might have in cold weather. We have snow half the year here, and I know my cell phone's lithium battery does not hold a good charge in freezing temperatures. Also, they say some batteries are damaged by charging them below freezing.
I have not yet been through a winter with it, but my understanding is the battery does fine in winter. Lots of cold European countries have plenty of these things running around. A bigger issue is that the earlier and even later model S trim used resistive heating, which churns through the battery. The 2015 SV/SL have a heat pump, which is pretty efficient. All Leafs to my knowledge also include heated seats for driver/passenger/rear seat, which greatly cuts down on the heater usage and frankly I prefer. Nothing like heating your kidneys directly while you keep the windows open on a crisp fall day.

You can also preheat the car on a schedule programmed through the dashboard so it heats up while plugged in (works better on a L2 charger versus the L1/110V charger) instead of off your battery. You can set the same timer to have it fully charged by a given time, so you could have the battery start warm, having just completed its charge.

The battery management is quite transparent - I believe it will actually heat up the battery before charging on subzero days.

I would definitely change out the tires if you're driving in snow regularly.

Here's an extreme example: https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/ ... xperience/

There are active forums at Reddit r/Leaf and mynissanleaf forums which a nauseating amount of detail, but in practice I just leave a cushion and don't worry about it at all.
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linuxizer
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by linuxizer »

3CT_Paddler - I propose a Miata or 350Z rather than an Accord or Camry.

Orangutan - Same prescription. 8-)
Williams57
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by Williams57 »

3CT_Paddler wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:54 am Disagree. The Nissan Leaf makes a Toyota Prius look stylish. It is one of the uglier cars on the road. I don't understand why all of these automakers outside of Tesla are so terrible at making an electric vehicle that doesn't look terrible. It's like they secretly want you to hate electric cars so they can go on making gas vehicles. Take an Accord/Optima/Genesis body and make it electric - you will sell millions of those types of cars.

I submit that the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is the official car of Bogleheads. Value and style at an affordable price.

Edit: All of that criticism aside, the 2021 Leaf looks to be a big improvement in design. :happy
I have a 2019 Nissan Leaf, it's quite stylish alright.
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Re: Nissan Leaf

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

A cautionary tale ... The looming problem with old EVs: It’s really hard to change batteries | Driving
When Clayton Brander’s Nissan Leaf first hit the showroom floor in 2013, it was advertised as having a range of 121 kilometres. Now, after 116,589 km on British Columbia’s Sunshine Coast, the car’s instrument cluster claims to have a range of 98 km, but Clayton says “it’s realistically more like 75 km if you don’t use heat or air conditioning and the weather conditions are perfect.”

So Brander set out to do what he assumed would be easy: Call the dealer and buy a new battery. But the Powell River man soon discovered that virtually no B.C. dealer had ever installed a post-warranty battery, and they even struggled to quote him a price.
Clearly this person was an early adopter and the landscape has definitely changed as electric vehicles become more mainstream and common. But it does remind us that some chapters of the whole electric vehicle story have yet to be written.

As to the original subject line, I don't recall a vote or poll to determine the "most Bogleheads of Bogleheads" so I'd refrain from making any such claim.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by mervinj7 »

Williams57 wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:48 am
3CT_Paddler wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:54 am Disagree. The Nissan Leaf makes a Toyota Prius look stylish. It is one of the uglier cars on the road. I don't understand why all of these automakers outside of Tesla are so terrible at making an electric vehicle that doesn't look terrible. It's like they secretly want you to hate electric cars so they can go on making gas vehicles. Take an Accord/Optima/Genesis body and make it electric - you will sell millions of those types of cars.

I submit that the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is the official car of Bogleheads. Value and style at an affordable price.

Edit: All of that criticism aside, the 2021 Leaf looks to be a big improvement in design. :happy
I have a 2019 Nissan Leaf, it's quite stylish alright.
I currently have a 2020 Leaf. I wouldn't call it particularly stylish but unlike the older 2015 model it gets absolutely no attention on the road but it gets the job done. Just the way I like it.
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linuxizer
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Re: Nissan Leaf

Post by linuxizer »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:51 am A cautionary tale ...
Plenty of stories of weirdly fast degradation in non-Lizard batteries, mostly in hot climates. Seems to be far less of an issue since the battery chemistry change in late 2014. Note you *can* replace the battery with a lightly used pack these days, and even double the range in the process by using a bigger battery, it just costs $7-8k.
As to the original subject line, I don't recall a vote or poll to determine the "most Bogleheads of Bogleheads" so I'd refrain from making any such claim.
Subject line is obviously provocative, but there has been a broad consensus on BH over the ~decade I've been on here that until you have enough savings you should buy a used Corolla with cash. My point is that I'm not sure it's really based on data any more.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by andypanda »

If Nissan Leafs really do depreciate nearly 70% in the first 5 years then a used one could be a good deal. But what's it worth after 10 years?

A new Corolla depreciates 36% in the first 5 years and is still valuable after 10.

I don't know what's best for young folks because I'm decades beyond buying my first, second, third, fourth or whatever car. And I need an off road truck that tows. But once upon a time I traded in my old brown small block V8 '67 Chevelle on a new '75 Datsun B210. Putt, putt, putt. Little underpowered thing was still running strong when I sold it in '86 and bought a new 85hp Subaru GL wagon with hi-lo p-time 4WD, steel skid plate, armored exhaust and adjustable rear shocks - all factory installed. That one lasted 14 years. Somehow a Nissan Leaf ends up being a great unknown by comparison.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by earlywynnfan »

I have the MieV, the red-headed stepchild of electric cars. Debated between it and the Leaf back in 2012.

It has been fantastic for me. I use it as much as possible (work, kids' sports, shopping) and I'm only at around 55K miles. My batteries don't last quite as long as when I got it, but we're talking a few miles difference per charge, barely noticeable. Definitely less in the winter (Cleveland), but unless you come close to maxing out daily, it's no big deal. The biggest negative is the heater. It takes about 15 min to put out anything useful, and that definitely sucks down the battery. I imagine that's the same for the Leaf.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by tcw »

I have a 2016 Leaf SL, purchased in 2018. The only maintenance I've done, other than rotating tires and replacing wipers, was to get the brake line flushed.

It's a great car for around-town driving. The accelerator has the instantaneous response that only electric vehicles have, which makes it really fun to drive.

As for looks, I admit that I thought it looked kind of weird at first, but it's grown on my and now I like it.

The cost of "fuel" is very low for me. I have a separate metered service for the garage, and my electric company has a time-of-use plan for this setup. I charge it overnight or on the weekends, and it costs about $2.00 to fully charge the battery, which provides about 100 miles of range. (Note that in cold weather, the range is lower.)
L2 charger is really completely unnecessary with a battery this small...
I disagree with this part -- I think that with a small battery, a faster charger is actually more important. Let's say your battery maxes out at 100 miles of range. If you, say, drive 60 miles in the morning, and then 3 hours later want to drive another 60 miles, that would be impossible to do with an L1 charger, which only adds about 4 miles of range per hour. But this would be no problem with an L2 charger, which adds about 24 miles of range per hour.

On the other hand, if you had a car with a larger battery, say, with 200 miles of range, then you could do the two 60 mile drives without any trouble, with just an L1 charger.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by psteinx »

The good use cases for a used Leaf are, I think, kinda narrow.

Need a primary car for longer journeys.

Need a garage for reliable access to a charger. (Many of the folks who'd be interested in an economical car live in apartments.)

Need to be able to get away with a small-ish car rather than something larger, with more room for passengers/gear.

Can't readily move between locations. So, aside from the overnight charging issues, it wouldn't work for most college kids unless their campus is REALLY close to home.

The market to buy and sell Leafs is basically local. See a good one 150 miles away? Hard to get home if you buy it. And if/when you sell yours, the same restrictions apply.

For the early ones, don't really want to buy if you live in a hot climate. Also, per the OP on heating, don't really want to buy an early one in a very cold climate either.
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Re: Nissan Leaf - Officially the most Bogleheads of Bogleheads Second Cars

Post by Flyer24 »

Thread has run its course (not actionable).
By actionable, I mean whether you [meaning the person asking the question] will potentially be able to use the information to better utilize your time or money.
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