[Is it worth flying first class?]
Re: Never fly first class
It's all about the $$. If it's reasonable, I'll upgrade on anything over 1.5 hours. "Reasonable" depends on whether it's standard US domestic first or nice lie flat seats.
I used to collect miles and points and use them - and got a lot of value out of them over the years - but given the serious devaluation of most miles and points I have moved to cash back.
I used to collect miles and points and use them - and got a lot of value out of them over the years - but given the serious devaluation of most miles and points I have moved to cash back.
Re: Never fly first class
First/business used to be a big deal for the following reasons:
1) Dedicated check-in lines
2) Separate security line
3) Priority boarding
4) Lounge access
5) On-board - more legroom, lower passenger density, in-flight entertainment, better food, "free" drinks
With mobile check-in/boarding passes and pre-check, #1 and #2 aren't important anymore.
I almost always pack a small soft-sided carry-on bag, so #3 isn't that big a deal.
#4 has marginal benefit since the domestic lounge quality isn't so great these days.
For #5, entertainment isn't a differentiator any longer since I can watch whatever I want on my iPad. For the others, the benefit is typically not worth the price or miles for me.
1) Dedicated check-in lines
2) Separate security line
3) Priority boarding
4) Lounge access
5) On-board - more legroom, lower passenger density, in-flight entertainment, better food, "free" drinks
With mobile check-in/boarding passes and pre-check, #1 and #2 aren't important anymore.
I almost always pack a small soft-sided carry-on bag, so #3 isn't that big a deal.
#4 has marginal benefit since the domestic lounge quality isn't so great these days.
For #5, entertainment isn't a differentiator any longer since I can watch whatever I want on my iPad. For the others, the benefit is typically not worth the price or miles for me.
Re: Never fly first class
Yes, but if you can get a payout greater than 2% that means the cost is reduced vs the listed retail price of upgrading.
That’s ignoring scoring very good deals for points…we don’t actually have the flexibility to score the super cheap first class redemptions you read about on travel blogs.
The downside of school aged kids…
Re: Never fly first class
After about the age of 55, I have pretty much always traveled in business class for trips to Asia where my parents live. For 14 hour flights, I really like being able to lie down and sleep. I usually pay about $4000 for a round trip and travel several times a year. On the other hand, I have never paid for domestic first class within the US.
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Re: Never fly first class
I have flown first class a number of times but not on my nickel. Long flights, especially overseas, are easier to justify. You can actually sleep on the plane and arrive at your destination much fresher. Traveling in coach is a crap shoot depending on who you are next to or near. However, I can put up with that for a couple of hours. I would not pay the price for domestic first class but longer flights, maybe.
Re: Never fly first class
It's important to distinguish between domestic "first class" and true international first class. Domestic F is really just premium economy (in many cases carriers use the same seats as long-haul premium economy), not even as good as international business class. True international F is increasingly rare, as international business class has gotten so good (flat beds, direct aisle access at every seat, increasingly even some privacy from doors or the like).
Widebodies like the 777 or A330 will almost always have flat beds in business and first, where it gets tricky is with shorter flights, e.g. on the 757. In some cases they may have flat beds, in others it's just a recliner like domestic F.
Widebodies like the 777 or A330 will almost always have flat beds in business and first, where it gets tricky is with shorter flights, e.g. on the 757. In some cases they may have flat beds, in others it's just a recliner like domestic F.
Last edited by 02nz on Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Never fly first class
less than a 5 hour flight--no
5+ hour flight I will consider upgrading
now that I'm 50+ years old, some of these comfort things are playing a larger role in my decisions
5+ hour flight I will consider upgrading
now that I'm 50+ years old, some of these comfort things are playing a larger role in my decisions
Re: Never fly first class
I am extremely claustrophobic. I’ve always hated to fly but as I’ve gotten older it has gotten worse. I hate flying so bad that I’ve driven from Ohio to Durango Colorado to avoid plane travel. Because of that I mostly travel domestically and we do road trips. If I can’t drive there and I have no choice but to fly. It’s first class or just not go. Next year we are flying for the first time in 5 years to the US Virgin Islands first class. I paid 2000 for a ticket and we are staying in an eco tent glamping and will cook most of our own food. The tent is 150 a night.
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Re: Never fly first class
This has been my experience too. Also add bulk to carry on so a trade off.
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Re: Never fly first class
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Last edited by AerialWombat on Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post is a work of fiction. Any similarity to real financial advice is purely coincidental.
Re: Never fly first class
I think this question is extremely subjective and there is definitely no correct answer. I personally don't mind flying at all and never feel particularly cramped even in coach despite being an average size male. Since I don't mind flying, even in coach, the benefit of first class is small.
For me the upgrade to first class is only worth it if it is paid for by someone else or particularly cheap. For example, on our honeymoon upgrading to first class to fly to Mexico was only $50 extra for some reason. It made no sense, but we took the deal. Obviously first class is nice and feels "fancy" usually, but that's just not particularly important to me for something lasting only a handful of hours. I can easily afford first class, but I'd rather spend or donate money elsewhere.
On the other hand, my sister HATES flying and would do anything to make the experience better. For her she would gladly upgrade to first class even if it is expensive. She has much less anxiety when she has more room to spread out and can feel less like she is flying on an airplane. I don't think she is wrong to want to fly first class given how she feels about flying.
For me the upgrade to first class is only worth it if it is paid for by someone else or particularly cheap. For example, on our honeymoon upgrading to first class to fly to Mexico was only $50 extra for some reason. It made no sense, but we took the deal. Obviously first class is nice and feels "fancy" usually, but that's just not particularly important to me for something lasting only a handful of hours. I can easily afford first class, but I'd rather spend or donate money elsewhere.
On the other hand, my sister HATES flying and would do anything to make the experience better. For her she would gladly upgrade to first class even if it is expensive. She has much less anxiety when she has more room to spread out and can feel less like she is flying on an airplane. I don't think she is wrong to want to fly first class given how she feels about flying.
“There may be times when we are powerless to prevent injustice, but there must never be a time when we fail to protest.” - Elie Wiesel
Re: Never fly first class
International business class is well worth it for flights more than 6 or 7 hours especially for overnight flights. For the really long haul 12-14 hour flights it is a must. It is one of my big indulgences and I spend a lot on airfare and I don't regret it one bit. I enjoy flying and having an easy beginning and ending to a vacation makes all the difference.
Re: Never fly first class
Rarely domestic but I have been doing International business class for last 6-7 years since I am able to afford it. It has been amazing in terms of comfort, service in flight and the airport perks. Never see myself going back.
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Re: Never fly first class
One thing I'm amazed at is how rare it is to see discussion of the benefits of having a company to do certain things for us. When I fly, it's on business and thus my company is picking up the tab. I usually fly business, though sometimes it feels silly as NTR to LAX is only 9-10 hours and JAL's economy is so good I often don't bother. My upcoming trip is a whopping $5500, but my company can afford it.
For cars, here in Japan vehicles can be purchased by companies, as Japan likes to promote buying more automobiles for the local economy. I bought myself a cherry BMW Z4 a few months ago, knowing that if I didn't pull the trigger I might have to wait months or years due to the silicon issues. Couldn't be happier. My car in the U.S. is the cheapest BMW convertible I could find (2011 BMW series 1), which I love.
For cars, here in Japan vehicles can be purchased by companies, as Japan likes to promote buying more automobiles for the local economy. I bought myself a cherry BMW Z4 a few months ago, knowing that if I didn't pull the trigger I might have to wait months or years due to the silicon issues. Couldn't be happier. My car in the U.S. is the cheapest BMW convertible I could find (2011 BMW series 1), which I love.
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Re: Never fly first class
I fly first class when possible for flights longer than 2 hours. I use rewards points to do it and consider it a fairly high return on life quality for the money. I've also been flying long enough to know that first class in 2021 is about the same as a regular seat in 1975.McCharley wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:02 pm Dear Bogleheads,
I spent the first 50 years of my life looking smugly at those fools in First Class that were paying 2-3x my ticket price for a few hours in a bigger seat.
And then I flew to San Francisco for my 50th birthday -- only a few hours, but first class. And I was like, hmmm. Nice. Not worth it.
But then I took a 14 hour flight business class. With full layback seats, hot towels, silverware... Dang.
Do you folks splurge on air travel? It really seems like the most wasteful thing to spend extra on, but I've almost convinced myself that it's worth it.
"I would rather be certain of a good return than hopeful of a great one" |
Warren Buffett
Re: Never fly first class
I can't get any quality sleep on a plane, it's not like I wake up feeling refreshed. I also at times wake up screaming, like loud too, especially if I'm napping, scares the crap out of the wife. That would be embarrassing. So paying for a lie flat seat wouldn't be worth it.
Re: Never fly first class
Noise cancelling earbuds don't work quite as well as the over-the-ear versions, but the size trade-off is worth it.Wilderness Librarian wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:10 amThis has been my experience too. Also add bulk to carry on so a trade off.
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Re: Never fly first class
I am one of the rare people on the planet (if not the only one!) who find this cute and worth listening to
"One of the funny things about stock market, every time one is buying another is selling, and both think they are astute" - William Feather
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Re: Never fly first class
I suppose domestic first is similar to what business class was, but international business class today is more like what first class was in 1975. First class today is beyond what existed in 1975.eye.surgeon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:12 amI've also been flying long enough to know that first class in 2021 is about the same as a regular seat in 1975.
But the gap has widened. While business and first class amenities have grown, economy seats have gotten smaller and the services reduced, which is part of why inflation adjusted air fares have declined by half just since the early 90's (along with improving fuel economy, improved reliability, and increasingly streamlined operations).
Here's an example of some of the old regular seats:
Braniff Airways 727 - "When you got it, flaunt it."
Last edited by iamlucky13 on Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- lthenderson
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Re: Never fly first class
Traveling in a family of five first class international would cost many factors more than the actual vacation itself so we decline. But when the kids have flown the coop, it will definitely be an option.
Re: Never fly first class
My experience is limited, but using "miles" to purchase a lay-flat Business class seat to Beijing was a revelation--the flight was entirely pleasant (the Bose noise-cancelling headphones they handed out were a big help) the food was superior (with a dedicated on-board chef who came by to confirm my order), the service was almost too much (if they spotted me trying to do anything, like fill out a customs form,the cabin attendants were immediately at my elbow to translate and answer questions.) I arrived rested and relaxed with minimal jet lag. So I'm actively storing up credit card "miles" and "points" as a sort of savings account dedicated to future international flights.
I booked a "premium economy" flight from Hong Kong to LA: comfort was acceptable, but the flight ranked far lower on the the rested/relaxed upon arrival scale and I suffered from jet lag for the better part of a week.
If the "points" or finances allow, I'll aim for biz class on future long-haul (over some threshold--10 hrs?) flights, especially ones that cross multiple time zones. I can still handle few hours in coach on domestic flights, though I will pay a premium to avoid the middle seat. If (as I'm planning) I do a lot of international travel once I retire I will definitely invest in a set of noise-cancelling headphones.
I booked a "premium economy" flight from Hong Kong to LA: comfort was acceptable, but the flight ranked far lower on the the rested/relaxed upon arrival scale and I suffered from jet lag for the better part of a week.
If the "points" or finances allow, I'll aim for biz class on future long-haul (over some threshold--10 hrs?) flights, especially ones that cross multiple time zones. I can still handle few hours in coach on domestic flights, though I will pay a premium to avoid the middle seat. If (as I'm planning) I do a lot of international travel once I retire I will definitely invest in a set of noise-cancelling headphones.
Re: Never fly first class
From JFK to any asian city, i spend money for business. 14 hour flight in economy is hell.
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Re: Never fly first class
It depends on your size. I am very tall, so I learned to be loyal as a way of overcoming company policy. Premium economy not a bad compromise for longhaul as it is similar to domestic first class.
Not discussed very often.... The 777 started out 9 across in the back now it is 10 across which is uncomfortable. the 787 was designed for 8 across (thanks JAL), but most go 9 across. Space between seats (seat pitch) went from 33" -34" before to 30-32" now. Doesnt sound like much but it is. What the airlines have done in economy to squeeze more revenue is terrible.
Not discussed very often.... The 777 started out 9 across in the back now it is 10 across which is uncomfortable. the 787 was designed for 8 across (thanks JAL), but most go 9 across. Space between seats (seat pitch) went from 33" -34" before to 30-32" now. Doesnt sound like much but it is. What the airlines have done in economy to squeeze more revenue is terrible.
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Re: Never fly first class
Keep in mind there are a wide variety of experiences people are talking about when they say "first class."
International First is almost an extinct product, and only available on select routes/airlines. COVID had significantly cut the offerings that do exist in this space as many of them were tied to the old school mega widebody planes like the A380 and 747. It's for people who want (quite literally) the champagne and caviar experience. It will sometimes offer a private "room" where you can be completely enclosed from the rest of the cabin. Meals are intended to be equivalent to a high end restaurant. Most airlines are finding that the target audience is likely to want to just charter a private jet at that point (or already own one), and it doesn't justify taking up limited space on the smaller point to point A350/787 class international configurations.
International Business is the "new" international first class, and will typically offer a lie-flat seat. It's the difference between getting 3-4 hours of sleep on an eastbound flight and getting none at all- which is why many companies are willing to pay for it, especially for those expected to work on the day of arrival. It may or may not offer direct aisle access for all seats, and some airlines still fly "business class" arrangements with a middle seat. Although a 6 foot person can lay flat, the seat can be a bit narrow and difficult to sleep in if you don't sleep on your back. Meals will usually have actual silverware and some premium features like wine tastings, but can still have an airplane food vibe.
Domestic first in the U.S. is pretty basic unless you are flying a "premium transcon" route (usually NYC/Miami to California) where the setup is close to international business. For the others, it's just a bit wider seat and a bit more legroom with the elimination of the middle seat. Sometimes, you can actually get more legroom from a bulkhead Economy+ seat than "first." Meals are usually present (as opposed to mostly absent in economy), but usually not very good.
Intra-Europe "business class" is pretty silly. It's just economy with a meal and the middle seat blocked. Only thing that's meaningful is lounge access, which may be meaningless if you have status with a U.S. partner carrier that grants lounge access regardless of class. I've only flown it on business trips where I had to connect in Europe and the whole thing was just booked as business class.
Some airlines like United are starting to offer "Premium Economy" for international flights, with service closer to domestic "first." The seats don't lie flat, but there is no middle seat, more legroom, and more recline.
With all that in mind, you have to calibrate what you are willing to pay to the actual experience and what your needs are. If I'm going into a long contract negotiation on arrival, it's a very different story from just checking into a hotel and relaxing. The travel experience may also be more important on a short trip than a long one because it defines the experience more. Overall, premium flights are very expensive per hour flown as far as experiences go, but sometimes mile/card point redemptions can make the difference reasonable, as can cheap upgrades on empty flights.
International First is almost an extinct product, and only available on select routes/airlines. COVID had significantly cut the offerings that do exist in this space as many of them were tied to the old school mega widebody planes like the A380 and 747. It's for people who want (quite literally) the champagne and caviar experience. It will sometimes offer a private "room" where you can be completely enclosed from the rest of the cabin. Meals are intended to be equivalent to a high end restaurant. Most airlines are finding that the target audience is likely to want to just charter a private jet at that point (or already own one), and it doesn't justify taking up limited space on the smaller point to point A350/787 class international configurations.
International Business is the "new" international first class, and will typically offer a lie-flat seat. It's the difference between getting 3-4 hours of sleep on an eastbound flight and getting none at all- which is why many companies are willing to pay for it, especially for those expected to work on the day of arrival. It may or may not offer direct aisle access for all seats, and some airlines still fly "business class" arrangements with a middle seat. Although a 6 foot person can lay flat, the seat can be a bit narrow and difficult to sleep in if you don't sleep on your back. Meals will usually have actual silverware and some premium features like wine tastings, but can still have an airplane food vibe.
Domestic first in the U.S. is pretty basic unless you are flying a "premium transcon" route (usually NYC/Miami to California) where the setup is close to international business. For the others, it's just a bit wider seat and a bit more legroom with the elimination of the middle seat. Sometimes, you can actually get more legroom from a bulkhead Economy+ seat than "first." Meals are usually present (as opposed to mostly absent in economy), but usually not very good.
Intra-Europe "business class" is pretty silly. It's just economy with a meal and the middle seat blocked. Only thing that's meaningful is lounge access, which may be meaningless if you have status with a U.S. partner carrier that grants lounge access regardless of class. I've only flown it on business trips where I had to connect in Europe and the whole thing was just booked as business class.
Some airlines like United are starting to offer "Premium Economy" for international flights, with service closer to domestic "first." The seats don't lie flat, but there is no middle seat, more legroom, and more recline.
With all that in mind, you have to calibrate what you are willing to pay to the actual experience and what your needs are. If I'm going into a long contract negotiation on arrival, it's a very different story from just checking into a hotel and relaxing. The travel experience may also be more important on a short trip than a long one because it defines the experience more. Overall, premium flights are very expensive per hour flown as far as experiences go, but sometimes mile/card point redemptions can make the difference reasonable, as can cheap upgrades on empty flights.
Last edited by alfaspider on Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Never fly first class
My company mandates either cargo class or stowaway class for it's traveling employees. It does get cold in the cargo hold compartment, lighting is nonexistent down there, breathing at cruising altitude can get problematic on these longer flights, but hey, management earns their bonus nevertheless.
Re: Never fly first class
Traveling with a family of 5 is expensive because you often end up with 2 hotel rooms or a suite of some kind (2 beds + a sofa bed) unless you go the airbnb route.lthenderson wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:13 am Traveling in a family of five first class international would cost many factors more than the actual vacation itself so we decline. But when the kids have flown the coop, it will definitely be an option.
And as a family of 5 you're generally stuck with high season rates because you're limited to school vacation weeks...
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Re: Never fly first class
Even as a family of 4, traveling business overseas probably isn't worth it for most. At $3,000/seat (which is a pretty good U.S./Europe price for business- I've more often seen $5k), you are talking an extra ~$8,000 on airfare. For that cost delta, you could stay in some pretty swanky hotels while you are there or really splurge on food/activities. It's not quite as dramatic a difference for a couple.nigel_ht wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:30 pmTraveling with a family of 5 is expensive because you often end up with 2 hotel rooms or a suite of some kind (2 beds + a sofa bed) unless you go the airbnb route.lthenderson wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:13 am Traveling in a family of five first class international would cost many factors more than the actual vacation itself so we decline. But when the kids have flown the coop, it will definitely be an option.
And as a family of 5 you're generally stuck with high season rates because you're limited to school vacation weeks...
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Re: Never fly first class
The question and most of the discussion is focused on the simple question of "would you spend the money?"
A lot of posters are glossing over the foundational question: "how easily can you afford it?" Circumstances significantly affect how any given reader should view another person's willingness to spend the money.
I have a couple ways of looking at the question. The following is the simplest to me:
My employer flew me business class once for an 11+ hour trip (~9.5 hours, layover, ~2 hours). It's not labeled first class, but it included decent lie-flat seats, lounge access, premium food, etc. The seat was obviously significantly more comfortable and could be made relatively private, the food was great, and I enjoyed having a couple glasses of wine over the course of the flight. The amenity I appreciated the most, however, was lounge access during my layover. I had been in a rush at work to prepare for the trip and was tired even before I left. A shower in between flights was really refreshing.
The amount extra that my employer spent over the economy fare was in the ballpark of 3 times my pay rate per hour of flight.
Flying economy is uncomfortable, but it is really not the most difficult part of my job. It is definitely not 5 times worse than my average on-the-job experiences. I wouldn't work multiple extra days to minimize the discomfort of a day of flying.
So no, I would not splurge on business or first class travel. Had my employer offered to fly be business class or pay me the difference between business and economy, or even a share of the difference, I would absolutely have pocketed the money.
I might splurge on premium economy. I figure they're reducing the revenue-generating space on the airplane by about 20% (typically 36-38" seat pitch, vs 31-32"), and throwing in a few minor amenities. Depending on the trip, I'd consider spending 20-30% extra. That's around 1/3 of my pay rate.
Unfortunately, every time I have priced out premium economy, it has been at least 50% more than the normal economy ticket. Usually it's around twice the price. I can't justify that.
A lot of posters are glossing over the foundational question: "how easily can you afford it?" Circumstances significantly affect how any given reader should view another person's willingness to spend the money.
I have a couple ways of looking at the question. The following is the simplest to me:
My employer flew me business class once for an 11+ hour trip (~9.5 hours, layover, ~2 hours). It's not labeled first class, but it included decent lie-flat seats, lounge access, premium food, etc. The seat was obviously significantly more comfortable and could be made relatively private, the food was great, and I enjoyed having a couple glasses of wine over the course of the flight. The amenity I appreciated the most, however, was lounge access during my layover. I had been in a rush at work to prepare for the trip and was tired even before I left. A shower in between flights was really refreshing.
The amount extra that my employer spent over the economy fare was in the ballpark of 3 times my pay rate per hour of flight.
Flying economy is uncomfortable, but it is really not the most difficult part of my job. It is definitely not 5 times worse than my average on-the-job experiences. I wouldn't work multiple extra days to minimize the discomfort of a day of flying.
So no, I would not splurge on business or first class travel. Had my employer offered to fly be business class or pay me the difference between business and economy, or even a share of the difference, I would absolutely have pocketed the money.
I might splurge on premium economy. I figure they're reducing the revenue-generating space on the airplane by about 20% (typically 36-38" seat pitch, vs 31-32"), and throwing in a few minor amenities. Depending on the trip, I'd consider spending 20-30% extra. That's around 1/3 of my pay rate.
Unfortunately, every time I have priced out premium economy, it has been at least 50% more than the normal economy ticket. Usually it's around twice the price. I can't justify that.
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Re: Never fly first class
I don't like air travel, even in first class, so I'd usually just rather save the money since I'm not having a great time anyway. "Less bad"just doesn't seem like something I get excited about paying extra for.
On a long international flight, I'll concede it's nice, but when I've done that, it was usually something like using mileage or a discount, not full fare. I'd rather spend thousands somewhere else.
I remember we had a CEO that went first class to Australia and it was literally like a $30k+ premium for first class and he had no issue with the company paying that. Probably thought he was slumming it not being on a private jet, and we weren't some Fortune 500 company. I think much of this travel is bankrolled on someone else's dime.
On a long international flight, I'll concede it's nice, but when I've done that, it was usually something like using mileage or a discount, not full fare. I'd rather spend thousands somewhere else.
I remember we had a CEO that went first class to Australia and it was literally like a $30k+ premium for first class and he had no issue with the company paying that. Probably thought he was slumming it not being on a private jet, and we weren't some Fortune 500 company. I think much of this travel is bankrolled on someone else's dime.
Re: Never fly first class
For domestic? No way. I wouldn't even waste company money on it.
For international? I'd gladly pay for Business, and I'd do First if Megacorp was going to cover it (they do on some long-haul flights).
For international? I'd gladly pay for Business, and I'd do First if Megacorp was going to cover it (they do on some long-haul flights).
Re: Never fly first class
Yes, the opportunity cost of the $8K cost delta is also part of the equation...I would prefer to spend more on the actual stay than on the travel to get there for most trips.alfaspider wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:34 pmEven as a family of 4, traveling business overseas probably isn't worth it for most. At $3,000/seat (which is a pretty good U.S./Europe price for business- I've more often seen $5k), you are talking an extra ~$8,000 on airfare. For that cost delta, you could stay in some pretty swanky hotels while you are there or really splurge on food/activities. It's not quite as dramatic a difference for a couple.nigel_ht wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:30 pmTraveling with a family of 5 is expensive because you often end up with 2 hotel rooms or a suite of some kind (2 beds + a sofa bed) unless you go the airbnb route.lthenderson wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:13 am Traveling in a family of five first class international would cost many factors more than the actual vacation itself so we decline. But when the kids have flown the coop, it will definitely be an option.
And as a family of 5 you're generally stuck with high season rates because you're limited to school vacation weeks...
I think for most folks spending money on a premier travel card (AmEx Plat, CSR, etc) with lounge access and Global Entry for everyone and going economy plus provides more bang for the buck over first/business class as a family.
Re: Never fly first class
I'm sure I'll change in mind in the future. But I'm fit and healthy. And I can sleep just fine whether on a bed or in an airplane economy seat. I find no additional value in bigger seat or a lie-flat seat. I generally don't spend money on things that I don't find value. Airline ticket is no difference.McCharley wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:02 pm Dear Bogleheads,
I spent the first 50 years of my life looking smugly at those fools in First Class that were paying 2-3x my ticket price for a few hours in a bigger seat.
And then I flew to San Francisco for my 50th birthday -- only a few hours, but first class. And I was like, hmmm. Nice. Not worth it.
But then I took a 14 hour flight business class. With full layback seats, hot towels, silverware... Dang.
Do you folks splurge on air travel? It really seems like the most wasteful thing to spend extra on, but I've almost convinced myself that it's worth it.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: Never fly first class
I wish that was the case. Not once in my life have I ever gotten a wink of sleep in an economy airline seat (other than perhaps the one flight I'm told I took as a newborn).H-Town wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:09 pmI'm sure I'll change in mind in the future. But I'm fit and healthy. And I can sleep just fine whether on a bed or in an airplane economy seat. I find no additional value in bigger seat or a lie-flat seat. I generally don't spend money on things that I don't find value. Airline ticket is no difference.McCharley wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:02 pm Dear Bogleheads,
I spent the first 50 years of my life looking smugly at those fools in First Class that were paying 2-3x my ticket price for a few hours in a bigger seat.
And then I flew to San Francisco for my 50th birthday -- only a few hours, but first class. And I was like, hmmm. Nice. Not worth it.
But then I took a 14 hour flight business class. With full layback seats, hot towels, silverware... Dang.
Do you folks splurge on air travel? It really seems like the most wasteful thing to spend extra on, but I've almost convinced myself that it's worth it.
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Re: Never fly first class
When I was working our company policy was to fly business class domestic and First class international. I was a happy camper.
Today I'm retired and can afford to fly business class domestic and First class international. But I rather fly economy plus and I'm still a happy camper.
I can fall asleep anywhere, most of the time I'm sleeping before the plane even takes off.
Today I'm retired and can afford to fly business class domestic and First class international. But I rather fly economy plus and I'm still a happy camper.
I can fall asleep anywhere, most of the time I'm sleeping before the plane even takes off.
Re: Never fly first class
As a kid I traveled often in overnight trains standing up for 4-8 hours. In the daytime the temperature was way over 100F, in the winter compartments often had ice and snow on the floor. Many times a 2 liter bottle of wine or brandy was passed between passengers while chatting about the meaning of life and everything.
In highschool I used to take very crowded (trolley)buses to go to school across the city. They would not stop in the station because they were overcrowded, but somewhere hundreds of yards away. I was reasonable at sprinting but sometimes with no success, so the commute involved a fair bit of walking and sprinting.
Inside the bus in the summer it was like a sauna, extraordinarily hot and steamy and the body to body pressure was high enough that I not have to hold on onto anything. In the winter I would hang out of the door, frozen hand slipping slowly on the metal bar, hopping for the next stop to come faster so I can rest my hand for a minute before I smash my head on the pavement.
So yeah, I don't buy business class tickets. Sitting o a comfortable seat in a climate controlled cabin with a light and a screen and served food and wine bottles that don't go from mouth to mouth it's the maximum luxury for me. I would rather travel more.
In highschool I used to take very crowded (trolley)buses to go to school across the city. They would not stop in the station because they were overcrowded, but somewhere hundreds of yards away. I was reasonable at sprinting but sometimes with no success, so the commute involved a fair bit of walking and sprinting.
Inside the bus in the summer it was like a sauna, extraordinarily hot and steamy and the body to body pressure was high enough that I not have to hold on onto anything. In the winter I would hang out of the door, frozen hand slipping slowly on the metal bar, hopping for the next stop to come faster so I can rest my hand for a minute before I smash my head on the pavement.
So yeah, I don't buy business class tickets. Sitting o a comfortable seat in a climate controlled cabin with a light and a screen and served food and wine bottles that don't go from mouth to mouth it's the maximum luxury for me. I would rather travel more.
Re: Never fly first class
Salute!Starfish wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:34 pm As a kid I traveled often in overnight trains standing up for 4-8 hours. In the daytime the temperature was way over 100F, in the winter compartments often had ice and snow on the floor. Many times a 2 liter bottle of wine or brandy was passed between passengers while chatting about the meaning of life and everything.
In highschool I used to take very crowded (trolley)buses to go to school across the city. They would not stop in the station because they were overcrowded, but somewhere hundreds of yards away. I was reasonable at sprinting but sometimes with no success, so the commute involved a fair bit of walking and sprinting.
Inside the bus in the summer it was like a sauna, extraordinarily hot and steamy and the body to body pressure was high enough that I not have to hold on onto anything. In the winter I would hang out of the door, frozen hand slipping slowly on the metal bar, hopping for the next stop to come faster so I can rest my hand for a minute before I smash my head on the pavement.
So yeah, I don't buy business class tickets. Sitting o a comfortable seat in a climate controlled cabin with a light and a screen and served food and wine bottles that don't go from mouth to mouth it's the maximum luxury for me. I would rather travel more.
To life!
And to travel more often!
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: Never fly first class
Since we've started having babies we've flown first class only a few times. Never with more than one baby. From DFW to the East Coast (PHL, BOS, MCO), it makes it worth it for us. I can only imagine the glory of crossing an ocean in a lie-flat bed cabin. Someday...
With 4 kids at once, it's economy or drive for us!
It's one of my goals to retire with enough money to fly First Class with my wife as we see fit. Maybe that'll be what one of our Roth IRAs (HFEA!) is designated for?
With 4 kids at once, it's economy or drive for us!
It's one of my goals to retire with enough money to fly First Class with my wife as we see fit. Maybe that'll be what one of our Roth IRAs (HFEA!) is designated for?
“The strong cannot be brave. Only the weak can be brave; and yet again, in practice, only those who can be brave can be trusted, in time of doubt, to be strong.“ - GK Chesterton
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Re: Never fly first class
+1. Unless I’m on Southwest, I’m flying in first. Don’t care about the extra cost.Ferdinand2014 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:12 pm I always fly first class. I would never consider anything else. 10 hours to Hawaii or 6 hours to Europe and I am completely rested and ready to enjoy my vacation. No need to waste a day recovering from stuffed in like a sardine. No stress or lines anywhere. Plenty of onboard bag storage. Don't even check bags. Worth every penny.
Re: Never fly first class
I think you should edit the thread subject: it really has nothing to do with "never fly first class"; it's just a general discussion of seating options.McCharley wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:02 pm Dear Bogleheads,
I spent the first 50 years of my life looking smugly at those fools in First Class that were paying 2-3x my ticket price for a few hours in a bigger seat.
And then I flew to San Francisco for my 50th birthday -- only a few hours, but first class. And I was like, hmmm. Nice. Not worth it.
But then I took a 14 hour flight business class. With full layback seats, hot towels, silverware... Dang.
Do you folks splurge on air travel? It really seems like the most wasteful thing to spend extra on, but I've almost convinced myself that it's worth it.
Re: Never fly first class
I did the rough calculation for my family of 3 to Asia, and it did not make sense to pay for upgraded seats. We instead used the money to stay at St. Regis, had a wonderful experience, and still saved money.alfaspider wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:34 pmEven as a family of 4, traveling business overseas probably isn't worth it for most. At $3,000/seat (which is a pretty good U.S./Europe price for business- I've more often seen $5k), you are talking an extra ~$8,000 on airfare. For that cost delta, you could stay in some pretty swanky hotels while you are there or really splurge on food/activities. It's not quite as dramatic a difference for a couple.nigel_ht wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:30 pmTraveling with a family of 5 is expensive because you often end up with 2 hotel rooms or a suite of some kind (2 beds + a sofa bed) unless you go the airbnb route.lthenderson wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:13 am Traveling in a family of five first class international would cost many factors more than the actual vacation itself so we decline. But when the kids have flown the coop, it will definitely be an option.
And as a family of 5 you're generally stuck with high season rates because you're limited to school vacation weeks...
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Re: Never fly first class
I no longer fly commercial. Usually Dave and I fly his Gulfstream! I pilot it. Dave wears his parachute!McCharley wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:02 pm Dear Bogleheads,
I spent the first 50 years of my life looking smugly at those fools in First Class that were paying 2-3x my ticket price for a few hours in a bigger seat.
And then I flew to San Francisco for my 50th birthday -- only a few hours, but first class. And I was like, hmmm. Nice. Not worth it.
But then I took a 14 hour flight business class. With full layback seats, hot towels, silverware... Dang.
Do you folks splurge on air travel? It really seems like the most wasteful thing to spend extra on, but I've almost convinced myself that it's worth it.
Tony
Last edited by abuss368 on Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: Never fly first class
Flew business class to Europe 6 years ago. I could never go back to coach. Luckily, we fly off season and use points that we have an abundance of from credit card bonus game and charging through my business. Wife and I actually look forward to the plane ride now, no joke. It's totally relaxing, can lie flat, put seat in any position and plenty of room. It has nothing to do with the food or service, that is meaningless to us. It's all about the comfort.
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Re: Never fly first class
abuss368 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:23 pmI no longer fly commercial. Usually Dave and I fly his Gulfstream! I pilot it. Dave wears a parachute!McCharley wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:02 pm Dear Bogleheads,
I spent the first 50 years of my life looking smugly at those fools in First Class that were paying 2-3x my ticket price for a few hours in a bigger seat.
And then I flew to San Francisco for my 50th birthday -- only a few hours, but first class. And I was like, hmmm. Nice. Not worth it.
But then I took a 14 hour flight business class. With full layback seats, hot towels, silverware... Dang.
Do you folks splurge on air travel? It really seems like the most wasteful thing to spend extra on, but I've almost convinced myself that it's worth it.
Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: Never fly first class
And for the privilege they are paying a lot more for a shorter flight, by a few milliseconds... before impact.Northern Flicker wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:45 pm I believe there is a higher fatality rate for passengers in the front, 1st class seats in aviation accidents.
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Re: Never fly first class
IMO the value of business or first class travel is somewhat questionable.
I consider the following:
1. No lounge access - who cares? Instead, why not go to a restaurant and spend $50+ and have waitress service for an hour or so pre-flight?
2. Get food you REALLY enjoy eating and take it onto the plane with you (include a big bottle of water). I try not to drink alcohol on flights.
3. For longer flights: Upgrade to economy plus. Get an aisle seat towards the front of the plane away from the toilets.
4. For longer international flights: try to break the trip and stop at places you would enjoy visiting for a few days. Reduces jet lag too.
To me that's a great alternative to first class, regardless of whether I can afford it or not.
I consider the following:
1. No lounge access - who cares? Instead, why not go to a restaurant and spend $50+ and have waitress service for an hour or so pre-flight?
2. Get food you REALLY enjoy eating and take it onto the plane with you (include a big bottle of water). I try not to drink alcohol on flights.
3. For longer flights: Upgrade to economy plus. Get an aisle seat towards the front of the plane away from the toilets.
4. For longer international flights: try to break the trip and stop at places you would enjoy visiting for a few days. Reduces jet lag too.
To me that's a great alternative to first class, regardless of whether I can afford it or not.
Re: Never fly first class
Good question. For years I just cashed in points for cash. Spouse convinced me otherwise, and apparently if you know what you’re doing (and spouse does) the points can be leveraged for a higher reward at hotels and on air travel. But there’s a huge amount of work associated with it, unless points rewards maximization is your hobby...probably just take the cash
Re: Never fly first class
Domestic flights over 3 hours we buy seats in the Premium economy area, if under 3 hours in Economy, and Business class for international flights.Not wealthy enough to fly First Class.