New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

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StevieG72
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by StevieG72 »

Who did the install? Was it a company considered qualified by the mfg? If so I would follow up with the mfg and let them know equipment is not running properly. They should be able to expedite getting the issue figured out.
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markm75
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

gac1979 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:49 pm Did the duct cleaners adjust your dampers?
By dampers is that the lever on the ducts in the basement straight in line being on n sideways off? Those weren't touched
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by RetiredAL »

markm75 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 pm
Question -- In your post #1, is the Trane 2 stage the heater, the A/C, or both?
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

RetiredAL wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:18 pm
markm75 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:40 pm
Question -- In your post #1, is the Trane 2 stage the heater, the A/C, or both?
According to my installer the furnace heater is 2 stage, the a/c is only single stage.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

Before trying to change blower speed it might be worth it to check and see if your blower is running at the higher cooling speed. Turn off a/c and turn on the heat. To the touch you should feel the different blower speed between heat and cool. If not your installer left it in the default setting and should correct it. Also check status on LED when heat is running to compare with cooling status.
Last edited by mpnret on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

markm75 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:10 pm
mpnret wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:35 pm Yes, I should have said google S9X2 blower adjustment. The S9V2 is the variable speed motor.
I took off the panel but i'm not seeing anywhere to adjust the blower speed. Its reading CL1 for the cooling level on the LED then ep6 code

I did find that the hole where the line goes to the coils inside the top is blasting out cold air. I stuffed some insulation around the crack to stop this. I also found that predrilled holes around the seams of the furnace are shooting out air, but thats the bulk of the air leakage.

Guessing the y1 vs y2 is also ok since its jumped, same thing with w1 and w2 (i only have a single w1 at the nest).

Image
You have a newer style emerson control board. It doesn't have the different color plug in wires or dip switches to control blower speed. Everything is controlled by the 2 buttons below the LED display on the board. Without pushing any buttons you are in status mode. CL1 is stage one cooling. Display updates every 2 seconds. I would expect that to be followed by ArF which is airflow request. Then the airflow in cfm. For example 080 for 800 cfm. I'm not sure what the ep6 is you are seeing. Might be speed 6. Used to be only 5 but newer units are being listed as having 9 speeds. It's possible CFM only displays for variable speed units.
If the installer isn't familiar with this newer board I can see where he might leave everything at default.
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markm75
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

mpnret wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:13 am Before trying to change blower speed it might be worth it to check and see if your blower is running at the higher cooling speed. Turn off a/c and turn on the heat. To the touch you should feel the different blower speed between heat and cool. If not your installer left it in the default setting and should correct it. Also check status on LED when heat is running to compare with cooling status.
I tried this, forgot to check the led though.

Hot felt very similar to cool, had to get my hand within about 2" to the vent to feel it in either case.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

Another test this AM, used the living room google sensor as the point of temperature.

Started at 74F at 10am, by 1042 i was able to lower it to 71F.

Again that sensor sits about 2.5 feet up on the ottoman at the center of the floor. When the temp reached 72 it will still showing 74F on the thermostat temperature (which obviously is around 5 feet high). When the living room sensor temp hit 71, the thermostat finally lowered to 73F.

So if you go by thermostat temps it went down about 1F in 45 mins, if you go by the lower ottoman living room spot (again 8 feet away), it went down a full 3F.

This was all at an exterior temp of 65F, ill retry this later on when it gets to around 77F outside and see if the difficulty of a few days ago shows up.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:40 am
mpnret wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:13 am Before trying to change blower speed it might be worth it to check and see if your blower is running at the higher cooling speed. Turn off a/c and turn on the heat. To the touch you should feel the different blower speed between heat and cool. If not your installer left it in the default setting and should correct it. Also check status on LED when heat is running to compare with cooling status.
I tried this, forgot to check the led though.

Hot felt very similar to cool, had to get my hand within about 2" to the vent to feel it in either case.
Before we switched to variable speed, it’s been my recollection that you could feel one speed fans from quite a distance, clearly more than 2”. From what you say about the timing and symptoms, I would investigate whether the cleaning had disrupted the integrity of the ducts. Duct tape dries out, flexing over time disrupts connections, over strenuous cleaning, etc.

When we put in our geothermal, we were concurrently doing a lot of “down to the studs” renovating. I’m not sure how long the ducts had been in place, perhaps 20:years or so, but it was shocking how far from airtight they were. A lot of our cooling was going into the walls and random places where we didn’t need cooling.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:49 am
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:40 am
mpnret wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:13 am Before trying to change blower speed it might be worth it to check and see if your blower is running at the higher cooling speed. Turn off a/c and turn on the heat. To the touch you should feel the different blower speed between heat and cool. If not your installer left it in the default setting and should correct it. Also check status on LED when heat is running to compare with cooling status.
I tried this, forgot to check the led though.

Hot felt very similar to cool, had to get my hand within about 2" to the vent to feel it in either case.
Before we switched to variable speed, it’s been my recollection that you could feel one speed fans from quite a distance, clearly more than 2”. From what you say about the timing and symptoms, I would investigate whether the cleaning had disrupted the integrity of the ducts. Duct tape dries out, flexing over time disrupts connections, over strenuous cleaning, etc.

When we put in our geothermal, we were concurrently doing a lot of “down to the studs” renovating. I’m not sure how long the ducts had been in place, perhaps 20:years or so, but it was shocking how far from airtight they were. A lot of our cooling was going into the walls and random places where we didn’t need cooling.
Yeah i swear you used to be able to feel it alot further away. The one in my office space i can feel from maybe 2 feet away though (slightly different style grate on the wall).

Any suggestions what to look for? I mean i did the hand around the ducts in the cellar, no obvious issues. Next, tomorrow, ill use the infrared tester to look for temp variations down there.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:16 am Yeah i swear you used to be able to feel it alot further away. The one in my office space i can feel from maybe 2 feet away though (slightly different style grate on the wall).

Any suggestions what to look for? I mean i did the hand around the ducts in the cellar, no obvious issues. Next, tomorrow, ill use the infrared tester to look for temp variations down there.
It was easy for us with the walls opened :D

There must be a device that measures airflow that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. If it were me, and I’ll admit I’m lazy and unhandy, I’d have an HVAC person come in and measure for suspected leaks. Expected vs actual cfm will tell you.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by Absolutely! »

You obviously have a volume issue, you have cool air, but no volume (cfm). You should be able to feel the air well beyond a couple inches from a register. You need to determine what is causing the limited volume of air coming from the registers. Could be blockage somewhere, massive leakage somewhere or possibly the blower running at too low a speed, but the focus should be on resolving the air flow issue.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by Dave55 »

What MERV rating is your furnace filter? I was using MERV 12 filters and just replaced it with a MERV 8 and the airflow out of the vents increased significantly as did the cooling off time for the whole house.

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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by galawdawg »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:22 am There must be a device that measures airflow that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. If it were me, and I’ll admit I’m lazy and unhandy, I’d have an HVAC person come in and measure for suspected leaks. Expected vs actual cfm will tell you.
Yep, it's called a CFM meter, handheld anemometer or airflow meter. About $30 on Amazon. Double or triple that at HD and Lowes.

But I'm with you. All this DIY stuff like opening up panels on the HVAC unit and replacing thermostats to troubleshoot these issues when OP has a brand new HVAC unit doesn't make much sense to me. I'd call the owner of the HVAC company and ask them to work with me to troubleshoot the issue, even if I had to pay for any problems found that were not related to the new system.

As I've said in other threads, picking the installer is the most important part of buying a new HVAC system. Perhaps OP went with the equipment rather than the company. But to each his own. I just hope OP doesn't short something out on the new control board, hook up a thermostat wrong or do something that causes more problems than it solves (and likely not covered by the Trane warranty).
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

Im definitely not mucking with anything electrical. All i did was swap out the nest to see if the offline issue i had was nest related (or the cooling issue). My original is back in.

I've contacted the installer to ask on cfm/checking flow.

Since i proved that the center of the living room can be cooled 2-3F in under 1 hour (at 2.5 feet high), while the thermostat only goes down 1F (at its height), does this prove anything, or is this test invalid since the position of the google sensor is only about 2.5 foot off the ground vs the thermostat?
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:55 am Since i proved that the center of the living room can be cooled 2-3F in under 1 hour (at 2.5 feet high), while the thermostat only goes down 1F (at its height), does this prove anything, or is this test invalid since the position of the google sensor is only about 2.5 foot off the ground vs the thermostat?
Airflow is sometimes funny. And, of course, heat rises.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by HoberMallow »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:16 am Any suggestions what to look for? I mean i did the hand around the ducts in the cellar, no obvious issues. Next, tomorrow, ill use the infrared tester to look for temp variations down there.
The best way to check for leaks is a "duct blaster" test. You seal up all the return and supply registers except for one, and then measure how much airflow is needed to pressurize the duct system. The more airflow needed, the leakier the ducts.

https://www.herstesting.net/what-is-a-d ... ster-test/

Around here, this test is required by code for new installations. Of course many installers don't do it because it's difficult and will reveal their substandard work.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by RickBoglehead »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:38 am I just hope OP doesn't short something out on the new control board, hook up a thermostat wrong or do something that causes more problems than it solves (and likely not covered by the Trane warranty).
I said this earlier. IMO, OP needs to stop screwing around with things and make the HVAC company find the problem. Swapping thermostats, not turning off the breaker and then touching the wires together, changing plugs on circuit boards, etc. Stop already!

As far as what kind of filter, pull the filter and that tells you if it is the problem.

But this "it's X temperature Y feet above the floor Z feet from the thermostat is more than useless because there's no before (old system) and after (new system).

When my mother got a new system, I was in charge of selecting a company. I made sure each new in my RFQ that they had to provide an analysis of the needed capacity and address the issues raised (1 room too cool, 1 room never cool enough). The company that did the install added a vent in one room, and partially shut a damper in another.

They also were required to NOT install a smart thermostat, because the owner of the home lacks the ability to use any technology. When they pushed on this, I told them they could put in anything they wanted, but they had to provide the owner's cell number and respond 24/7. Dumb thermostats went right in...
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

So after calling the installer..

"everything was operating as well as it could mechanically. The smart motors are not like the old psc motors that blast full tilt all the time. Your cfm was at 1400 which should be more than enough for 2.5 tons of air. it was debated to actually turn it down, if it gets set any higher it will likely have static pressure issues. 400 cfm per 1 ton of air, so 2.5 ton = 1000 cfm, yours is at 1400 which is technically the minimum for 3.5 tons of air"

I asked on the duct test, he said noone around here does that unless its a new home with easy access to all the ducts.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by tomd37 »

markm75 - I have not seen the subject of contacting the manufacturer of the equipment and seeking their help. If the installing company is one of their "certified representatives" maybe the manufacturer would step in with some assistance. Has that avenue been considered?
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:02 am
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:55 am Since i proved that the center of the living room can be cooled 2-3F in under 1 hour (at 2.5 feet high), while the thermostat only goes down 1F (at its height), does this prove anything, or is this test invalid since the position of the google sensor is only about 2.5 foot off the ground vs the thermostat?
Airflow is sometimes funny. And, of course, heat rises.
Ideally your A/C vents should be on the ceiling. Your low on the wall vents were most likely heat only at one time and someone added central A/C using your existing ductwork. Not ideal, but with proper airflow it works. I suspect your current problem is reduced airflow. From previous posts, check ducts, check filter (maybe even remove for a quick test), and finally increase blower speed. Once that is fixed you could improve things further by adding those plastic magnetic airflow diverters to push the airflow up if needed.
I could provide directions on how to program the blower speeds on that control board but being it is new I think it would be best to have the installer do it. You already know how to tell what speed it's set at by looking at the display.
And as long as you have the installer coming back you may want to mention your 2 stage heat is only 1 stage the way he has it wired. You can confirm this by turning the heat on and watching the LED display. I believe it will always jump right to stage 2. (Display= HE 2). To fix this the jumper between W1 and W2 would have to be removed and another wire run from W2 at the control board to W2 at the nest.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by RetiredAL »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am
1. Put a piece of micro-foam behind the thermostat to thermally isolate it from wall. If that wall is an outside wall, consider moving the thermostat.

2. Per the Trane manual that someone posted, the default fan speed for CL1 is lot lower than for CL2. The speed is settable via the IFC control interface. Your IFC showed the command state was CL1.
Defaults: CL1 = tap2, CL2 = tap4, H1=tap3, H2=tap5. If it were me, I'd want cooling to be running at tap4, even with a single stage A/C.

3. A previous comment about a high MERV filters reducing airflow is appropriate. The air flow restriction per MERV varies widely between manufactures and even with different lines by the same manufacture. The better flowing filters per MERV do cost more.

4. In general, a before the fan restriction like air filters, have minimal effect on motor horsepower, so speeding up the fan for more airflow should be OK. However, after fan restrictions like too small of duct work, raise the motor HP, especially when you increase the speed trying to force more air, which could exceed to motor's rating.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by HomeStretch »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am So after calling the installer..

"everything was operating as well as it could mechanically. The smart motors are not like the old psc motors that blast full tilt all the time. Your cfm was at 1400 which should be more than enough for 2.5 tons of air. it was debated to actually turn it down, if it gets set any higher it will likely have static pressure issues. 400 cfm per 1 ton of air, so 2.5 ton = 1000 cfm, yours is at 1400 which is technically the minimum for 3.5 tons of air"

I asked on the duct test, he said noone around here does that unless its a new home with easy access to all the ducts.
It’s not clear from this post whether the installer is coming back out to your house. The bottom line to the installer should be that the house temp is not comfortable for you even after replacing the system to correct the temp issue that you discussed with them prior to installing. It may not have anything to do with the new system (unless it’s the filter obstructing air flow). You may need to pay for more modifications. But a professional AC company should be willing and able to run diagnostics on temp from vents and airflow levels out of vents/into returns. Or any other diagnostics needed to resolve your issue.

Do you have a balance due for the install? That usually helps to get a contractor to take your issue more seriously and try to resolve it.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am So after calling the installer..

"everything was operating as well as it could mechanically. The smart motors are not like the old psc motors that blast full tilt all the time. Your cfm was at 1400 which should be more than enough for 2.5 tons of air. it was debated to actually turn it down, if it gets set any higher it will likely have static pressure issues. 400 cfm per 1 ton of air, so 2.5 ton = 1000 cfm, yours is at 1400 which is technically the minimum for 3.5 tons of air"

I asked on the duct test, he said noone around here does that unless its a new home with easy access to all the ducts.
Did they measure 1400 cfm, or was that what it was set to? There’s be a big difference. I have no doubt it was set to 1400, but it might not be reaching the registers. I have a 300 cfm fan over my stove; that’s a lot of air. 1400 / number of registers should be felt more than 2” away.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

HomeStretch wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:14 pm
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am So after calling the installer..

"everything was operating as well as it could mechanically. The smart motors are not like the old psc motors that blast full tilt all the time. Your cfm was at 1400 which should be more than enough for 2.5 tons of air. it was debated to actually turn it down, if it gets set any higher it will likely have static pressure issues. 400 cfm per 1 ton of air, so 2.5 ton = 1000 cfm, yours is at 1400 which is technically the minimum for 3.5 tons of air"

I asked on the duct test, he said noone around here does that unless its a new home with easy access to all the ducts.
It’s not clear from this post whether the installer is coming back out to your house. The bottom line to the installer should be that the house temp is not comfortable for you even after replacing the system to correct the temp issue that you discussed with them prior to installing. It may not have anything to do with the new system (unless it’s the filter obstructing air flow). You may need to pay for more modifications. But a professional AC company should be willing and able to run diagnostics on temp from vents and airflow levels out of vents/into returns. Or any other diagnostics needed to resolve your issue.

Do you have a balance due for the install? That usually helps to get a contractor to take your issue more seriously and try to resolve it.
No balance due, im guessing he meant the system was set to 1400. He's kinda left me in a lurch here after the call. I guess ill try removing the air filter and doing that test.

He pretty much blew off the idea of a duct test that they dont do those.
He also didnt feel swapping to a dump thermostat would yield any clues.

I will try calling the main line and getting a supervisor onto this first, then ill try the manufacturer if that fails.

They had good reviews and reasonable prices and were quick to answer my questions initially, but that might have been a false positive in the end.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

RetiredAL wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:53 pm
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am
1. Put a piece of micro-foam behind the thermostat to thermally isolate it from wall. If that wall is an outside wall, consider moving the thermostat.

2. Per the Trane manual that someone posted, the default fan speed for CL1 is lot lower than for CL2. The speed is settable via the IFC control interface. Your IFC showed the command state was CL1.
Defaults: CL1 = tap2, CL2 = tap4, H1=tap3, H2=tap5. If it were me, I'd want cooling to be running at tap4, even with a single stage A/C.

3. A previous comment about a high MERV filters reducing airflow is appropriate. The air flow restriction per MERV varies widely between manufactures and even with different lines by the same manufacture. The better flowing filters per MERV do cost more.

4. In general, a before the fan restriction like air filters, have minimal effect on motor horsepower, so speeding up the fan for more airflow should be OK. However, after fan restrictions like too small of duct work, raise the motor HP, especially when you increase the speed trying to force more air, which could exceed to motor's rating.
Guessing it probably cant do the CL2 since its single stage cooling? I could ask the installer again about a temporary test to set to to cl2/tap4 however just to rule things out.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

markm75 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 6:10 pm
I took off the panel but i'm not seeing anywhere to adjust the blower speed. Its reading CL1 for the cooling level on the LED then ep6 code
Is it possible that the ep6 code you are seeing is actually is actually tP6. In order to make a lower case t with a seven segment led they leave off the top horizontal line of a upper case E. That would make more sense as it now refers to tap 6 for blower speed. It would be interesting to see what blower speed they are using for heat. Post it if you can. Also in your conversation with a dealer he mentioned 400cfm/ton more or less as a upper limit. Trane spec says "at least 400cfm/ton". It's never a good idea to disagree with dealer on these things but sometimes knowledge of them helps in your discussion with him to make things right.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:04 pm
RetiredAL wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 12:53 pm
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:25 am
1. Put a piece of micro-foam behind the thermostat to thermally isolate it from wall. If that wall is an outside wall, consider moving the thermostat.

2. Per the Trane manual that someone posted, the default fan speed for CL1 is lot lower than for CL2. The speed is settable via the IFC control interface. Your IFC showed the command state was CL1.
Defaults: CL1 = tap2, CL2 = tap4, H1=tap3, H2=tap5. If it were me, I'd want cooling to be running at tap4, even with a single stage A/C.

3. A previous comment about a high MERV filters reducing airflow is appropriate. The air flow restriction per MERV varies widely between manufactures and even with different lines by the same manufacture. The better flowing filters per MERV do cost more.

4. In general, a before the fan restriction like air filters, have minimal effect on motor horsepower, so speeding up the fan for more airflow should be OK. However, after fan restrictions like too small of duct work, raise the motor HP, especially when you increase the speed trying to force more air, which could exceed to motor's rating.
Guessing it probably cant do the CL2 since its single stage cooling? I could ask the installer again about a temporary test to set to to cl2/tap4 however just to rule things out.
Bad idea. You're already at tap6.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

Latest test on a 75F outside day.. Setting the thermostat to 70

The living room lower level sensor dropped about 2F in 1.5 hours to 71F from 73F (it did this in about 40 mins tops when the outside temp was 63F).

The thermostat temp started at 75, hit 74F over 1.5 hours or so
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markm75
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

I should also mention, if i turn off the ac and just do "fan only", its even worse on how close you have to get to the grate to feel the air, like almost ontop of or against it to feel the fan air coming out, perhaps thats normal for fan only, unsure
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:51 pm I should also mention, if i turn off the ac and just do "fan only", its even worse on how close you have to get to the grate to feel the air, like almost ontop of or against it to feel the fan air coming out, perhaps thats normal for fan only, unsure
That’s by design.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

mpnret wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:54 pm
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:51 pm I should also mention, if i turn off the ac and just do "fan only", its even worse on how close you have to get to the grate to feel the air, like almost ontop of or against it to feel the fan air coming out, perhaps thats normal for fan only, unsure
That’s by design.
Ah thanks, makes sense.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by Dottie57 »

Absolutely! wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:29 am You obviously have a volume issue, you have cool air, but no volume (cfm). You should be able to feel the air well beyond a couple inches from a register. You need to determine what is causing the limited volume of air coming from the registers. Could be blockage somewhere, massive leakage somewhere or possibly the blower running at too low a speed, but the focus should be on resolving the air flow issue.
+1
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

Dottie57 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:59 pm
Absolutely! wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:29 am You obviously have a volume issue, you have cool air, but no volume (cfm). You should be able to feel the air well beyond a couple inches from a register. You need to determine what is causing the limited volume of air coming from the registers. Could be blockage somewhere, massive leakage somewhere or possibly the blower running at too low a speed, but the focus should be on resolving the air flow issue.
+1
Definitely before winter and you find that same air flow issue pertains to heat.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by BH_RedRan »

I asked on the duct test, he said noone around here does that unless its a new home with easy access to all the ducts.
Not to put to fine a point on it but take it from me, some contractors lie through their teeth. That may not be the case for you but "trust but verify" is always a good plan. Also, listen to those above that have suggested measuring the temperature COMING OUT OF the vents. Measuring the room temperature isn't that helpful. With the low air volume you describe, I wonder if there is a disconnected vent line somewhere.

Here are some personal examples that come to mind where contractors / service folks verifiably lied to me:

"No one ever puts a vapor barrier under a concrete slab." This is after the slab was poured and they forgot the vapor barrier (that was specified in the contract).

"The roof replacement is $90K because of the complex roofline and the quality materials we use." This was based on a quote. I got four quotes and, using a good contractor and very good quality materials the job came in at ~$40K. I subsequently found out that the $90K bidder likes to look for "suckers" and bids for the moon based on what you "look like" you can afford.

"New air conditioners always sound like that. Wait for it to run-in some." I had a squealing A/C unit that failed in a couple of months. It started squealing off and on and about two weeks later it burned up (literally). The quote above was from a few days prior to the burn-up.

"But we provide the highest quality topsoil." After I complained after receiving what would be called "sandy gravel" by anyone that has ever seen actual top soil.

"The toilet tank cracked because you are on a well and there is too much iron in the water." This one made me laugh.

"Those oil plugs just loosen up and fall out sometimes. It is up to you to check them." From an auto service garage that obviously forgot to tighten the oil plug on a car I had.

I wish I was making these up. I must look dumber than I am.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

BH_RedRan wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:39 pm Not to put to fine a point on it but take it from me, some contractors lie through their teeth.
Thanks for the examples; good for a laugh. :D
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by tomd37 »

After all these posts it just sounds like a problem somewhere in the ductwork. And I would be willing to bet something is just not connected properly in that system. For example, on my gas-pack unit that sits outside, there is flexible duct work coming off the unit and connecting up to the permanent duct work in the crawl space. Those two connections alone not properly connected would not allow much air to flow from the unit into the duct work for further distribution to the air registers inside the home. I think its just a simple thing being overlooked in all these technical conversations/issues. :confused
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by fsrph »

tomd37 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:45 pm After all these posts it just sounds like a problem somewhere in the ductwork.
I'm no expert, but that sounds like a reasonable assumption. Did the op ever state the low airflow is in all rooms of the house? If so, then the issue is most likely between the furnace and the first air register. They must make a camera tool you can snake thru the ductwork much like a plumber uses on pipes. Perhaps that's worth a try.

Francis
"Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get." | Dale Carnegie
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

fsrph wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:52 pm
tomd37 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:45 pm After all these posts it just sounds like a problem somewhere in the ductwork.
I'm no expert, but that sounds like a reasonable assumption. Did the op ever state the low airflow is in all rooms of the house? If so, then the issue is most likely between the furnace and the first air register. They must make a camera tool you can snake thru the ductwork much like a plumber uses on pipes. Perhaps that's worth a try.

Francis
Wanted to correct my previous statement on 2" in front of the registers/grates.. its more like 6-8" in reality.

If i take the air filter out of the equation that might extend another 1-2" just a guess.
The vent in my office area is a solid 12-14" of air coming out.

I took the air filter out, set the thermostat based on the actual thermostat position, in 30 mins it went from 74 to 73 with outside being 76F, but that might have been because it was already close, so i'd say pulling the air filter out of the equation wasnt that useful.

The air filter is an aprilaire 213 expandable one. (merv 13)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UO ... UTF8&psc=1


I did measure the vent temps previously (in the thread too :) ) it was about 55F. The installers did measure delta temperatures and said they all were within spec.

I placed the google temp sensor at a similar height across the room from the dining room thermostat that always seems to stick around 74, that position opposite the room is about 72, a similar height just inside the kitchen is 72 as well.

Either way, cranking it down 2F these locations dont go down very fast, i would expect a 2F drop to be 1 hour or so, at least in the golden days of the old system it was (except upstairs).
It just never can reach below 73F at the thermostat location, runs and runs. edit: finally hit 72F at the thermostat (but the outside temp dropped to 63, i think it was nealy a solid 2.5 hours to go down 2F)


I still need to try switching to heat and noting the codes.
Last edited by markm75 on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

Dave55 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:35 am What MERV rating is your furnace filter? I was using MERV 12 filters and just replaced it with a MERV 8 and the airflow out of the vents increased significantly as did the cooling off time for the whole house.

Dave
Its merv13, i forget what the values indicate, i guess less filtering the lower the number? Without the filter there was maybe slightly more air coming out of the vents, not a huge difference though.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by illumination »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:38 am
All this DIY stuff like opening up panels on the HVAC unit and replacing thermostats to troubleshoot these issues when OP has a brand new HVAC unit doesn't make much sense to me. I'd call the owner of the HVAC company and ask them to work with me to troubleshoot the issue, even if I had to pay for any problems found that were not related to the new system.
Earlier you said it was out of line for the OP to expect the installer to make it right.

galawdawg wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:30 pm
And while OP's problems may be "unacceptable" to OP, there is nothing currently reported that indicates that the HVAC was not sized or installed properly. It could be the Nest thermostat (apparently installed by OP a number of years ago and not changed out), the insulation, air infiltration in the house, OP's "mining" setup or any one or more of a number of possible issues that are beyond the control of the HVAC installers or equipment manufacturer. And if it isn't the system or the system installation, who is the "they" that needs to make it right?

If the original installer is not being responsive, I'd call Trane's customer and make them send out someone else in their dealer network. I would not try any sort of DIY solutions on a brand new system.


If there is a severe ductwork problem, a competent installer would have figured it out before the homeowner did and his system wasn't cooling down the home. And they wouldn't be feeding excuses like just crank it down colder.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

With the heater on, the led shows ht2 (t is the E i guess).

So yeah with the ac on, its cl1 and tp6 (i assume this is the max/ or the 1400 cfm setting).

Calling the trane customer service basically either puts you to a customer advice person (not support) or they refer you to a local dealer via zipcode, amazingly only 3-5 around me and none that were on my list originally (actually pretty far away on most of these). I guess i can get in touch with one of those dealers, not sure if that is a cost per visit type thing or not since related to a brand new warranted install?

Still intrigues me how the system has no real issue going from 74 to 73 pretty quickly (at thermostat) but anything beyond this at the thermostat is impossible it feels like (unless the outside temp gets real low), this even at 70F outside.

** (it has no trouble bringing the cellar temp down 3F quickly however which is where my main 6 gpu mining rig is, the warmest spot in the house, with only one vent open in the cellar, maybe a clue there is something else leaking down there)

I second the idea of a company coming in with a camera to snake around and look for something (in the walls?) that may have broke loose causing a pressure/air loss, if this exists. Could be something loose at one of the returns where i cant see (places other than the cellar)

**I have looked into energy audits at least via the electric company here that used to offer them, this doesnt appear to be the case anymore, a temporary dead end in that regard. EDIT: looks like there may be some 3rd party ones but at a cost, around $300-$500. I would think an hvac company could (even at a small cost) bring in some equipment to determine if the ductwork is solid or not.
Last edited by markm75 on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:55 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by galawdawg »

illumination wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:39 pm
galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:38 am
All this DIY stuff like opening up panels on the HVAC unit and replacing thermostats to troubleshoot these issues when OP has a brand new HVAC unit doesn't make much sense to me. I'd call the owner of the HVAC company and ask them to work with me to troubleshoot the issue, even if I had to pay for any problems found that were not related to the new system.
Earlier you said it was out of line for the OP to expect the installer to make it right.

galawdawg wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:30 pm
And while OP's problems may be "unacceptable" to OP, there is nothing currently reported that indicates that the HVAC was not sized or installed properly. It could be the Nest thermostat (apparently installed by OP a number of years ago and not changed out), the insulation, air infiltration in the house, OP's "mining" setup or any one or more of a number of possible issues that are beyond the control of the HVAC installers or equipment manufacturer. And if it isn't the system or the system installation, who is the "they" that needs to make it right?

If the original installer is not being responsive, I'd call Trane's customer and make them send out someone else in their dealer network. I would not try any sort of DIY solutions on a brand new system.


If there is a severe ductwork problem, a competent installer would have figured it out before the homeowner did and his system wasn't cooling down the home. And they wouldn't be feeding excuses like just crank it down colder.
And??? [OT comment removed by moderator oldcomputerguy]

I still don't believe that the OP should expect the installer to make it right. If the quote was to supply and install Trane system XYZ and it was installed properly and operates within specifications (which at this point appears to be the case) other issues, such as ductwork, an owner-supplied and installed thermostat, air infiltration, poor insulation or other issues that don't concern the installation or operation of the HVAC equipment are not the responsibility of the Trane dealer. You, however, stated that it was "unacceptable" and that the installer needed to make it right. That implies responsibility for the issues are the installers.

Read my suggestion again...."I'd call the owner of the HVAC company and ask them to work with me to troubleshoot the issue, even if I had to pay for any problems found that were not related to the new system." That does not imply that the problems are the result of the system or installation but that the OP needs help fixing anything else that might be wrong (such as ductwork) at whatever the additional expense might be for work beyond the scope of the original quote.

Nor do I think calling "Trane's customer" (whatever that means) and having them send someone else out in their dealer network is the solution. If the equipment operates properly and the installation was done correctly, it isn't Trane's problem or responsibility.

Have you had an HVAC system replaced? Did the installers measure airflow by CFM at every single register? Did they measure the air temps (both cooling and heating) at every single register? Did they measure the insulation depth in multiple locations? Did they use an IR camera to find air leakage on all exterior walls and roof? Of course not.

If you took the time to read the background from OP's other thread (linked in the OP), you would have seen the suggestions/recommendations in the first two replies, neither of which were followed or implemented by the OP:
Have you done an energy audit? Better insulation and sealing might be able to make a significant difference, and a lot of power companies do them for free.
For you it sounds like the most important thing may be to get an HVAC company who looks at the total envelope including air infiltration and insulation, does a load calc, and then leverages zoned dampers and modifications to the duct work to deliver that cooling capacity where it needs to go.
So I agree there is an issue with OP's expectations not being met, but OP was forewarned that the solution of simply replacing his existing system with a new system was probably not going to solve his problems. viewtopic.php?p=6106683#p6106683
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by mpnret »

markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:16 pm With the heater on, the led shows ht2 (t is the E i guess).

So yeah with the ac on, its cl1 and tp6 (i assume this is the max/ or the 1400 cfm setting).
Your only at tp6. According to the manual you posted a link to your system will go up to tp9. Also did you get a tp# for the heat? Also you only mentioned ht2 so I guess you never see ht1 which indicates your 2 stage heat only has 1 stage as wired.
Last edited by mpnret on Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

mpnret wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:22 pm
markm75 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:16 pm With the heater on, the led shows ht2 (t is the E i guess).

So yeah with the ac on, its cl1 and tp6 (i assume this is the max/ or the 1400 cfm setting).
Your only at tp6. According to the manual you posted a link to your system will go up to tp9. Also did you get a tp# for the heat?
Oops OK so some more options

When the heat was on I only saw the ht2
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by illumination »

galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:21 pm
illumination wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:39 pm
galawdawg wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:38 am
All this DIY stuff like opening up panels on the HVAC unit and replacing thermostats to troubleshoot these issues when OP has a brand new HVAC unit doesn't make much sense to me. I'd call the owner of the HVAC company and ask them to work with me to troubleshoot the issue, even if I had to pay for any problems found that were not related to the new system.
Earlier you said it was out of line for the OP to expect the installer to make it right.

galawdawg wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:30 pm
And while OP's problems may be "unacceptable" to OP, there is nothing currently reported that indicates that the HVAC was not sized or installed properly. It could be the Nest thermostat (apparently installed by OP a number of years ago and not changed out), the insulation, air infiltration in the house, OP's "mining" setup or any one or more of a number of possible issues that are beyond the control of the HVAC installers or equipment manufacturer. And if it isn't the system or the system installation, who is the "they" that needs to make it right?

If the original installer is not being responsive, I'd call Trane's customer and make them send out someone else in their dealer network. I would not try any sort of DIY solutions on a brand new system.


If there is a severe ductwork problem, a competent installer would have figured it out before the homeowner did and his system wasn't cooling down the home. And they wouldn't be feeding excuses like just crank it down colder.
And??? [OT comment removed by moderator oldcomputerguy]

I still don't believe that the OP should expect the installer to make it right. If the quote was to supply and install Trane system XYZ and it was installed properly and operates within specifications (which at this point appears to be the case) other issues, such as ductwork, an owner-supplied and installed thermostat, air infiltration, poor insulation or other issues that don't concern the installation or operation of the HVAC equipment are not the responsibility of the Trane dealer. You, however, stated that it was "unacceptable" and that the installer needed to make it right. That implies responsibility for the issues are the installers.

Read my suggestion again...."I'd call the owner of the HVAC company and ask them to work with me to troubleshoot the issue, even if I had to pay for any problems found that were not related to the new system." That does not imply that the problems are the result of the system or installation but that the OP needs help fixing anything else that might be wrong (such as ductwork) at whatever the additional expense might be for work beyond the scope of the original quote.

Nor do I think calling "Trane's customer" (whatever that means) and having them send someone else out in their dealer network is the solution. If the equipment operates properly and the installation was done correctly, it isn't Trane's problem or responsibility.

Have you had an HVAC system replaced? Did the installers measure airflow by CFM at every single register? Did they measure the air temps (both cooling and heating) at every single register? Did they measure the insulation depth in multiple locations? Did they use an IR camera to find air leakage on all exterior walls and roof? Of course not.

If you took the time to read the background from OP's other thread (linked in the OP), you would have seen the suggestions/recommendations in the first two replies, neither of which were followed or implemented by the OP:
Have you done an energy audit? Better insulation and sealing might be able to make a significant difference, and a lot of power companies do them for free.
For you it sounds like the most important thing may be to get an HVAC company who looks at the total envelope including air infiltration and insulation, does a load calc, and then leverages zoned dampers and modifications to the duct work to deliver that cooling capacity where it needs to go.
So I agree there is an issue with OP's expectations not being met, but OP was forewarned that the solution of simply replacing his existing system with a new system was probably not going to solve his problems. viewtopic.php?p=6106683#p6106683
If it's a new system and its not working properly, it's on the installer. They're not just "delivering" a new unit on a doorstep , its supposed to be a turnkey install, with the installer figuring out how to make it work for the home. A company like Trane is supposed to have a dealer network that filters out the more "hack" install places. If they install a unit and it's not cooling the home, they at least owe the homeowner a reason why the unit doesn't work and a game plan to get it to work. If it's disconnected ductwork, that is "extra" the homeowner will need to pay, but that should have been identified before or after they installed it. Answers from an installer like "just crank it down colder" aren't acceptable. A home that can't go to 71 degrees when its 75 outside is WAY out of spec and something is seriously wrong.

Regarding "have I had an install" and did they made a lot of measurements with instruments to make sure it was operating properly in different zones. Yes, they did. They didn't leave without making sure it operated properly.

The way the OP is describing, the installer is just passing the buck. I think a 2nd set of eyes from a professional should be the next step.

But if we're taking the OP's word on this, the installer really dropped the ball and seems to not have any desire to make it right.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by galawdawg »

illumination wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:31 pm If it's a new system and its not working properly, it's on the installer. They're not just "delivering" a new unit on a doorstep , its supposed to be a turnkey install, with the installer figuring out how to make it work for the home. A company like Trane is supposed to have a dealer network that filters out the more "hack" install places. If they install a unit and it's not cooling the home, they at least owe the homeowner a reason why the unit doesn't work and a game plan to get it to work. If it's disconnected ductwork, that is "extra" the homeowner will need to pay, but that should have been identified before or after they installed it. Answers from an installer like "just crank it down colder" aren't acceptable. A home that can't go to 71 degrees when its 75 outside is WAY out of spec and something is seriously wrong.

Regarding "have I had an install" and did they made a lot of measurements with instruments to make sure it was operating properly in different zones. Yes, they did. They didn't leave without making sure it operated properly.

The way the OP is describing, the installer is just passing the buck. I think a 2nd set of eyes from a professional should be the next step.

But if we're taking the OP's word on this, the installer really dropped the ball and seems to not have any desire to make it right.
We obviously just don't see eye to eye on this. IMO, if the unit is blowing out 55°F air when set to cool, the blower motor is pushing out 1400CFM, the blower motor drops to a very low speed on FAN ONLY setting and according to the Google sensor, the room is cooling (but perhaps losing the cool air quickly as it rises in the room) there is nothing wrong with the system cooling. Perhaps the temperature sensor in OP's Nest is malfunctioning and it is reading too high. Perhaps when OP had his duct work cleaned, it pulled apart some duct work seams inside the walls. Maybe during the duct cleaning, existing gaps or breaks in the ducts caused insulation in the walls to be sucked into the duct and out to the vendor's vacuum truck. We just don't know. In any event, I simply disagree that finding and correcting problems such as this would be the HVAC system installer's responsibility and encompassed in the scope and price of the new system.

Even wise Bogleheads can, and do, disagree at times! :sharebeer
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Similar but not identical: when we had our geothermal installed, we had a trilateral agreement between us, the GC who was providing HVAC sub to redo our ducts, and the geothermal company. Geothermal contract explicitly stated what they were responsible for (provide HVAC specs to GC, replace air handlers, replace thermostats, replace zone dampers, drill wells, etc.) and what they were not responsible for (removal of oil burner, getting power to thermostats, ductwork beyond the dampers, etc). Essentially there was a Point of Interface; to one side it was on GC, to the other the geothermal people.

Everyone performed their roles wonderfully. I got all of my design goals, one of which was to have my bedroom at 68 degrees when the outside temp is in the 90s.

Having a clear and concise contract in large print (none of that small print stuff) was very helpful.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by markm75 »

I got off the phone today with the installer again, this time speaking to the supervisor.

Talked for awhile but the short of it is, they (say) they may have not charged the system enough (not to the full 2.5 ton capacity at least), that he wants his guys to come and do a dew point check (using a Psychrometer ) on the registers and check the pressure readings at the registers again. He feels a slight adjustment and it might be better.

He's confused that its tap6 and cl1, he feels like at that tap6 it should be pretty noisy but its not. So i guess he thinks maybe its misconfigured or not registered the right modes on the computer as well.

They may have initially had the wrong square footage in their calculations as well (I told him at least 1500 sq feet not counting the basement)

After Friday ill know if anything helps or changes i guess.

It took 3.5 hrs to go down 2F on an 80F outside day today.
This AM it took 35 mins or so to go down 1F when it was still 65 or less outside. That same 1F drop mid day took at least 1+ hours.
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Re: New two stage heating and single stage cooling trane system issues cooling the house cant lower temp much in day?

Post by tibbitts »

markm75 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:30 pm They may have initially had the wrong square footage in their calculations as well (I told him at least 1500 sq feet not counting the basement)
I'm confused by this. When I got my multiple estimates, the sales people all measured all the rooms. I assume they did that so the software they all used could identify the size of the ductwork required for each room. I can't imagine buying a new unit by guessing at the amount of area that has to be cooled.
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