EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

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frugalecon
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EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by frugalecon »

I live in a dense, HCOL urban environment. Neighborhood is mostly single-family detached, but fewer than half have either a garage or even a driveway. (I have neither.) We are very dependent on street parking. I anticipate that our next vehicle will be electric, but I am puzzling over how to manage the charging solution. One idea is simply to give up part of the (small-ish) backyard for either a pad (low end) or small garage (higher end), which could be accessed from the alley. That is certainly doable, but I hate to give up part of the backyard. An early EV adopter jury-rigged a cord that went up and over the sidewalk in front, enabling curbside charging. More and more I see people literally running extension cords across the sidewalk, sometimes with a guard over it, sometimes not. That strikes me as crazy; anyone who trips on it will immediately sue. (I have a litigious acquaintance who sued a hotel because he tripped over a potted vine that he claimed intruded on the sidewalk and caused him to trip and fall, so that doesn’t seem outside the realm of possibility with an extension cord.)

In a nutshell, my question is how EV owners in this kind of neighborhood have solved the charging issue. I would love for the city to install chargers in the tree box, but I’m not holding my breath. Short of that, what are the best alternatives?
Last edited by frugalecon on Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
livesoft
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by livesoft »

The folks I know with EV pretty much only charge at work or restaurants that provide stations.
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Normchad
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Normchad »

I am a happy EV owner. In your situation, I would not buy an EV. Currently, the key to happiness is being able to charge easily at home.

Of course there are people that make it work, but I see tons of people in similar situations, that buy an EV, and become very unhappy due solely to this.
Afty
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Afty »

Are there any fast chargers in your neighborhood? Or at places you regularly shop? In my neighborhood there are Tesla Superchargers at the local Safeway and Target, so that might be a workable solution if you can’t charge at home.
Williams57
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Williams57 »

I own an EV and do not have a home charging option. It works for me. It takes more planning, but it's doable. Grocery stores, department stores, rec centers, a lot them seem to have the charging infrastructure in place now. I realize this is highly dependent on which part of the country you are in though.

I used to get terrible headaches from the smell of gas every time I got gas. To me waiting for 20-25 minutes while I read a book or browse my phone is better than 5 minutes of getting gas with having a headache for another hour.
Lars_2013
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Lars_2013 »

A friend who lives in Philly (not a super dense part, but no off-street parking) paid someone to run electrical under the sidewalk, install a little charging box, then repair the public sidewalk. Nobody from the city complained to them. And they have nice neighbors who don't block their charging station even though there's no legal obstacle to doing so.

That said, I probably wouldn't get an EV at this moment without off-street parking to enable a charging solution. I'd buy a relatively affordable fuel-efficient non-EV, then in ~6-8 years when public charging is more accessible, switch to an EV.
WhyNotUs
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by WhyNotUs »

Is there a charger near work? Check www.plugshare.com

You might only need to charge about once a week if you drive 1,000 miles a month with many current EVs.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by RickBoglehead »

Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by cchrissyy »

looking at your usage, will you need to charge pretty much daily? if yes then only get an EV if you have charging at home or work.

if you drive less miles than most folks, you might not need one at home. if we are talking once a week or less, you can combine charging with your normal trips to shopping/restaurants/etc

I have an EV on order and plan to have home charging but i am in no rush to get it installed because with how much i drive i probably only need to charge twice a month.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Big Dog »

Tesla owners of Model S use urban superchargers (for free for being an early adopter). In the Bay Area, superchargers are proliferating in shopping malls, and folks charge while they shop at Safeway.

But as noted earlier, one of the best things about an EV is charging at home. If I could not charge at home I would not have one.

And yes, running an extension cord for a 240v EV charger is a fire hazard. EV's draw a lot of power for a long time, so the cord can get warm/hot. Don't do it, unless its an emergency.
02nz
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 02nz »

RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 pm Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
02nz
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 02nz »

+1 on checking for nearby charging stations (and note the difference between L2 and DC Fast Charging). Some EVs are coming out that will enable dramatically faster DCFC. For example, the upcoming Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 use a 800V architecture (instead of 400V in most EVs), and will be able to go from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes. This requires very high-power chargers, which AFAIK only Electrify America has at the moment.

However, if you have to use DCFC most of the time, you will lose out one one of EVs' main advantages, lower energy cost. Using DCFC costs roughly the same as gas, on a per-mile basis. Your battery will also likely wear somewhat faster.
Last edited by 02nz on Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
gerntz
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by gerntz »

02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2).
But still a long time regardless.
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frugalecon
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by frugalecon »

Thanks for the replies. Based on the suggestion to look at PlugShare, I see that there are more nearby chargers than I realized. Just to be clear, I don’t plan to use the “extension cord across the sidewalk solution” myself. But I hear the message from several people that one should think twice if one can’t charge at home.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 02nz »

frugalecon wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:41 pm I see that there are more nearby chargers than I realized.
This is a common reaction - there are more charging stations out there already than most people realize. I think it's because they are very easy to overlook, often in the corner of some parking lot, not a big structure like a typical gas station.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Afty »

02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:34 pm However, if you have to use DCFC most of the time, you will lose out one one of EVs' main advantages, lower energy cost. Using DCFC costs roughly the same as gas, on a per-mile basis. Your battery will also likely wear somewhat faster.
At least here in CA, Tesla Supercharger rates are very close to residential electric rates. The Superchargers near me cost $0.42 per kWh on-peak/$0.21 per kWh off-peak. My PG&E time of use rates are $0.50 per kwH on-peak/$0.18 per kWh off-peak. So no real penalty for Teslas where I am.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 02nz »

Afty wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:19 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:34 pm However, if you have to use DCFC most of the time, you will lose out one one of EVs' main advantages, lower energy cost. Using DCFC costs roughly the same as gas, on a per-mile basis. Your battery will also likely wear somewhat faster.
At least here in CA, Tesla Supercharger rates are very close to residential electric rates. The Superchargers near me cost $0.42 per kWh on-peak/$0.21 per kWh off-peak. My PG&E time of use rates are $0.50 per kwH on-peak/$0.18 per kWh off-peak. So no real penalty for Teslas where I am.
Good point, although taking advantage of Tesla's off-peak pricing means less convenient times for many people, whereas getting the utility's off-peak rates involves merely setting scheduled charging on the EV one time.
ras4250
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by ras4250 »

are there any garages near you that offer EV charging? You currently park on the street, but maybe this could be an option? I'm sure there would be a fee, but maybe the lower EV cost would offset that? And now you get to park in a garage?
squirm
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by squirm »

Just buy a Tesla and don't worry about it, they have chargers all over the place including superchargers. Electrify America is catching up and getting better, so that's good news for non-Tesla, but not there yet.

I don't know if Tesla still has a nerf policy on DC charging. On S and X versions it was set at 2.625MWh and they would nerf the capacity and derate the charging speed. I think they might have eliminated that on most of those battery packs.
Last edited by squirm on Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by squirm »

Afty wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:19 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:34 pm However, if you have to use DCFC most of the time, you will lose out one one of EVs' main advantages, lower energy cost. Using DCFC costs roughly the same as gas, on a per-mile basis. Your battery will also likely wear somewhat faster.
At least here in CA, Tesla Supercharger rates are very close to residential electric rates. The Superchargers near me cost $0.42 per kWh on-peak/$0.21 per kWh off-peak. My PG&E time of use rates are $0.50 per kwH on-peak/$0.18 per kWh off-peak. So no real penalty for Teslas where I am.
Depends how much you drive. If you drive a lot and aren't on the EV rate, you can blow through their baselines quickly. If you have solar, you're screwed if you get the EV rate.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by RickBoglehead »

02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 pm Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by squirm »

RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 pm Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
I thought it would be about 60 hours....85kWh pack at about 1.4kW charging rate...still slow as hell.
02nz
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 02nz »

RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 pm Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
You probably have the longer-range version. The standard range one is closer to typical EVs in battery capacity and should charge in 50-60 hours.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Normchad »

02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:39 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 pm Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
You probably have the longer-range version. The standard range one is closer to typical EVs in battery capacity and should charge in 50-60 hours.
For me, it varies a lot with temperature and state of charge. My Long Range Model 3 on 120 charges about ~5 MPH between 10 and 80% in mild/warm temperatures. This drops to less than 2 mph in extremely cold weather.

Point being, 120 is fine only if you don't drive much, and can charge at home almost every day. Switching from 110 to 220 increases my charging rate to about 30 mph.

I wouldn't own an EV if I didn't have ready access to 220 for charging at home. It would just be too inconvenient.
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RootSki
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by RootSki »

Normchad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:43 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:39 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 pm Most modern EVs use 220. Not running an extension cord for that.

Going under a city street without a permit and inspection is very risky.
All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
You probably have the longer-range version. The standard range one is closer to typical EVs in battery capacity and should charge in 50-60 hours.
For me, it varies a lot with temperature and state of charge. My Long Range Model 3 on 120 charges about ~5 MPH between 10 and 80% in mild/warm temperatures. This drops to less than 2 mph in extremely cold weather.

Point being, 120 is fine only if you don't drive much, and can charge at home almost every day. Switching from 110 to 220 increases my charging rate to about 30 mph.

I wouldn't own an EV if I didn't have ready access to 220 for charging at home. It would just be too inconvenient.
I never understood what charging at 30mph means. What' the equivalent in Kilowatts?
dbr
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by dbr »

Our situation is similar to yours. I consider an EV totally not feasible unless it becomes possible to install an underground cable and charging outlet in the city owned strip next to the curb. See here: http://projectgreenhome.org/ev.html

Note conditions included allowing public access to anyone to use your electricity and carrying a $1M insurance policy.
squirm
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by squirm »

dbr wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:34 am Our situation is similar to yours. I consider an EV totally not feasible unless it becomes possible to install an underground cable and charging outlet in the city owned strip next to the curb. See here: http://projectgreenhome.org/ev.html

Note conditions included allowing public access to anyone to use your electricity and carrying a $1M insurance policy.
The vehicle charge port location also will need to be taken into account in those situations.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by squirm »

RootSki wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:24 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:43 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:39 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:30 pm

All modern EVs can charge with 120V (Level 1) or 240V (Level 2). Of course the latter is dramatically faster - a typical EV requires around 50 hours of L1 charging to from empty to full, but less than 10 hours of L2.

(I'm not saying OP should run an extension cord for either, just clarifying on 120 vs 240.)
50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
You probably have the longer-range version. The standard range one is closer to typical EVs in battery capacity and should charge in 50-60 hours.
For me, it varies a lot with temperature and state of charge. My Long Range Model 3 on 120 charges about ~5 MPH between 10 and 80% in mild/warm temperatures. This drops to less than 2 mph in extremely cold weather.

Point being, 120 is fine only if you don't drive much, and can charge at home almost every day. Switching from 110 to 220 increases my charging rate to about 30 mph.

I wouldn't own an EV if I didn't have ready access to 220 for charging at home. It would just be too inconvenient.
I never understood what charging at 30mph means. What' the equivalent in Kilowatts?
30mph is about 6-7kw. it's just means you can go about 30 miles for every hour of charging, given a flat terrain and under somewhat ideal conditions. It takes vehicle efficiency into account, but where I live, that metric is pretty much useless.
silverlitegs
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by silverlitegs »

WS1
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by WS1 »

I’d wait and see what kind of municipal infrastructure gets installed. Cities hiring a company to build a network of public use Level 2 and DC fast chargers is a thing that’s happening. Should you choose to not wait, meaning all of your charging will be DC fast, I would look into the estimated effects that will have on your battery’s service life.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Normchad »

squirm wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:41 am
RootSki wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:24 am
Normchad wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:43 pm
02nz wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:39 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:23 pm

50 hours? My Mach-E barely gets 3 miles per hour on 120. 95 hours for a full charge.
You probably have the longer-range version. The standard range one is closer to typical EVs in battery capacity and should charge in 50-60 hours.
For me, it varies a lot with temperature and state of charge. My Long Range Model 3 on 120 charges about ~5 MPH between 10 and 80% in mild/warm temperatures. This drops to less than 2 mph in extremely cold weather.

Point being, 120 is fine only if you don't drive much, and can charge at home almost every day. Switching from 110 to 220 increases my charging rate to about 30 mph.

I wouldn't own an EV if I didn't have ready access to 220 for charging at home. It would just be too inconvenient.
I never understood what charging at 30mph means. What' the equivalent in Kilowatts?
30mph is about 6-7kw. it's just means you can go about 30 miles for every hour of charging, given a flat terrain and under somewhat ideal conditions. It takes vehicle efficiency into account, but where I live, that metric is pretty much useless.
Yep, it’s 7kW for me. A lot of folks don’t understand what that means, so often times it helps to talk in terms of “how much range do I get from plugging in for an hour”. So for me, plugging in overnight always charges my car up to the 90% cut off.

And 7kW is about 30 miles for me. But might only be 25 for a Jaguar iPace, or something like that. (I just made that up though for an example)
vg55
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by vg55 »

request the city or utility to install street light or utility pole EV charging. one example of this technology is Blink https://www.globenewswire.com/en/news-r ... ation.html

lots of competitors in this space. google street light EV charging for more examples.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by RootSki »

I think owning an EV without a charging solution at home would be similar to going to refuel once a week. As long as there’s fast charging available along your regular habits and commutes. I’d get the biggest capacity available for winter range reductions.

I own a PHEV and I do not think it’s worth getting a PHEV without a home or work charging solution.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 5th_Dimension »

frugalecon wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:07 pm One idea is simply to give up part of the (small-ish) backyard for either a pad (low end) or small garage (higher end), which could be accessed from the alley.
What is taking up the area where you would put the pad/garage? Maybe you could install artificial grass in that area. You could pull the car in and with a fast enough charger top off the car in a couple of hours or less. Then back out onto the street and the artificial grass is usable again.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by egrets »

5th_Dimension wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:43 pm
frugalecon wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:07 pm One idea is simply to give up part of the (small-ish) backyard for either a pad (low end) or small garage (higher end), which could be accessed from the alley.
What is taking up the area where you would put the pad/garage? Maybe you could install artificial grass in that area. You could pull the car in and with a fast enough charger top off the car in a couple of hours or less. Then back out onto the street and the artificial grass is usable again.
My old neighbors had a concrete mesh sort of thing with grass in the interstices. It looked like grass after awhile but it could be parked on.

All I know about EVs is my brother has a Tesla but I thought there was some sort of rapid 30 minute charging. Also even if the cost is the same as gas you are still helping the planet.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Sun88 »

2021 Chevy Bolt owner here. I average about 40 miles of driving per day, 100+ miles maybe a couple times per week. I have no trouble maintaining a comfortable charge level using a standard 110V outlet. The default limit on the Bolt is 8 Amps and I generally don't plug in if the battery is 90% or more. The circuit is shared with our well pump; the breaker has never tripped.

If your average driving is similar, I'd probably park my car in the backyard/alley 3-4 nights per week and maintain the charge that way. If you have a dedicated 110V circuit, the current limit can be set to 12 Amps. If parking on the grass is not an option, maybe eco pavers or something of the sort?

For us, an EV for around time and a hybrid for road trips has been a nice solution.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by dratkinson »

Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
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quantAndHold
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by quantAndHold »

dratkinson wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:14 pm Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
We have a lot of this kind of thing around me. We also have a lot of “multipurpose” backyards, where when the car is there it’s a small parking spot, but when the car is gone, it’s a patio.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by neilpilot »

dratkinson wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:14 pm Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
I’ve lived in areas where the EV in the photo would be ticketed for illegally parking, facing in the wrong direction.
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Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by mervinj7 »

dratkinson wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:14 pm Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
The license plates say CA but it really looks like a neighborhood in Portland. I feel like I've seen that exact extension cord too.
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quantAndHold
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by quantAndHold »

mervinj7 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:24 pm
dratkinson wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:14 pm Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
The license plates say CA but it really looks like a neighborhood in Portland. I feel like I've seen that exact extension cord too.
That is indeed Portland. The narrow, wet streets and cars parked the wrong way give it away.
Big Dog
Posts: 4588
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Big Dog »

neilpilot wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:24 pm
dratkinson wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:14 pm Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
I’ve lived in areas where the EV in the photo would be ticketed for illegally parking, facing in the wrong direction.
Yup, our city would ticket the car for sure. Plus, the author never mentioned if they asked the City/Town if it was ok to run an extension cord across the sidewalk....
Normchad
Posts: 5630
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:20 am

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Normchad »

mervinj7 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:24 pm
dratkinson wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:14 pm Searched this: https://www.google.com/search?q=charge+ ... s+sidewalk

And read first article: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/06/21/co ... a-version/

$500 for that solution doesn't seem to be too unreasonable.

Image


Maybe ask city if you should paint curb green, or in some other way signify EV parking space.
The license plates say CA but it really looks like a neighborhood in Portland. I feel like I've seen that exact extension cord too.
That’s not an extension cord. That is the Tesla Universal Mobile Connector (UMC) that comes with every Tesla. It’s about 19 feet long, I think.
onourway
Posts: 3778
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by onourway »

Sun88 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:42 pm 2021 Chevy Bolt owner here. I average about 40 miles of driving per day, 100+ miles maybe a couple times per week. I have no trouble maintaining a comfortable charge level using a standard 110V outlet. The default limit on the Bolt is 8 Amps and I generally don't plug in if the battery is 90% or more. The circuit is shared with our well pump; the breaker has never tripped.

If your average driving is similar, I'd probably park my car in the backyard/alley 3-4 nights per week and maintain the charge that way. If you have a dedicated 110V circuit, the current limit can be set to 12 Amps. If parking on the grass is not an option, maybe eco pavers or something of the sort?

For us, an EV for around time and a hybrid for road trips has been a nice solution.
Besides being really slow, 120v charging is also inefficient. Apparently most vehicles use between 200-400w just maintaining the cars various systems while charging. If you can fast charge in a few hours, this isn’t a big deal. However if you’re essentially plugged in all the time on 120v, this is a huge loss - 2-4kw for every 10 hours of charging - 20% or more of the total energy consumed.
skis4hire
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:54 am

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by skis4hire »

If your only concern with street parking is the trip hazard of the cable, then install a channel drain across the sidewalk to lay the cable in. The top will have a flush cover with zero trip hazard.

Otherwise I would look at geo grid for your yard which let's you have grass but drive on it

We're planning on getting a level 2 charger but need a panel upgrade for that. In the meantime 120v is doing fine, gives us 36 miles in 12 hours which is currently way more than we drive daily while still working at home.
adamthesmythe
Posts: 5761
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:47 pm

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by adamthesmythe »

> I anticipate that our next vehicle will be electric

So continue anticipating until you have a viable solution for at-home charging.
Sun88
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:08 am

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by Sun88 »

onourway wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:47 pm
Sun88 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:42 pm 2021 Chevy Bolt owner here. I average about 40 miles of driving per day, 100+ miles maybe a couple times per week. I have no trouble maintaining a comfortable charge level using a standard 110V outlet. The default limit on the Bolt is 8 Amps and I generally don't plug in if the battery is 90% or more. The circuit is shared with our well pump; the breaker has never tripped.

If your average driving is similar, I'd probably park my car in the backyard/alley 3-4 nights per week and maintain the charge that way. If you have a dedicated 110V circuit, the current limit can be set to 12 Amps. If parking on the grass is not an option, maybe eco pavers or something of the sort?

For us, an EV for around time and a hybrid for road trips has been a nice solution.
Besides being really slow, 120v charging is also inefficient. Apparently most vehicles use between 200-400w just maintaining the cars various systems while charging. If you can fast charge in a few hours, this isn’t a big deal. However if you’re essentially plugged in all the time on 120v, this is a huge loss - 2-4kw for every 10 hours of charging - 20% or more of the total energy consumed.
Interesting.

We've had the car since April. I went back and checked our utility bills - compared to last year our consumption has increased 7.2 KWH per day for the months of ownership. At 33 miles/day that equates to 4.6 KWH/mile, or $1.27 at our marginal KWH rate to drive those 33 miles. The car itself reports energy consumption of 4.2KWH/mile. This is all back of the envelope - our electric bill is dominated by HVAC so the delta due to car charging may be off. That said, a 200-400W overhead for charging would account for 2-4 KWH/day (10 hours of charging) by itself, which seems high. I'm aware that things may look considerably less rosy when the temperature dips and battery conditioning kicks in.

In any case, I plan on putting in a dedicated 120V/20A line and increasing the charging current to 12A, which will help somewhat.

Do you have any references for the 200-400W overhead during charging? I'm anxious to learn more.

Thanks.
VaR
Posts: 760
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by VaR »

skis4hire wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:16 pm Otherwise I would look at geo grid for your yard which let's you have grass but drive on it
I'd like to second the idea of installing a grass surfaced parking system so you can have your lawn and park on it too.

I don't know how hard it is to find street parking, but perhaps this could increase your convenience factor.
1. street parking available when you come home from work -> park on the street
2. no street parking available -> park on your grass surfaced parking space in your backyard and charge the car

Plus if your parents live close by, they'll complain less about your parking situation if you can tell them you have a parking space for them.
02nz
Posts: 10476
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:17 pm

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by 02nz »

onourway wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:47 pm
Sun88 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:42 pm 2021 Chevy Bolt owner here. I average about 40 miles of driving per day, 100+ miles maybe a couple times per week. I have no trouble maintaining a comfortable charge level using a standard 110V outlet. The default limit on the Bolt is 8 Amps and I generally don't plug in if the battery is 90% or more. The circuit is shared with our well pump; the breaker has never tripped.

If your average driving is similar, I'd probably park my car in the backyard/alley 3-4 nights per week and maintain the charge that way. If you have a dedicated 110V circuit, the current limit can be set to 12 Amps. If parking on the grass is not an option, maybe eco pavers or something of the sort?

For us, an EV for around time and a hybrid for road trips has been a nice solution.
Besides being really slow, 120v charging is also inefficient. Apparently most vehicles use between 200-400w just maintaining the cars various systems while charging. If you can fast charge in a few hours, this isn’t a big deal. However if you’re essentially plugged in all the time on 120v, this is a huge loss - 2-4kw for every 10 hours of charging - 20% or more of the total energy consumed.
L2 charging is indeed more efficient, but not by nearly as much as you state. On average, L2 charging is about 5% more efficient. Source: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7046253

I've also calculated the charging losses on L1 in my own use for both a PHEV and a BEV. They are in line with the IEEE's figures. And no, EVs don't use 200-400W "maintaining" systems while charging.
onourway
Posts: 3778
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: EV charging solutions in dense urban environs

Post by onourway »

02nz wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:55 pm
Besides being really slow, 120v charging is also inefficient. Apparently most vehicles use between 200-400w just maintaining the cars various systems while charging. If you can fast charge in a few hours, this isn’t a big deal. However if you’re essentially plugged in all the time on 120v, this is a huge loss - 2-4kw for every 10 hours of charging - 20% or more of the total energy consumed.

L2 charging is indeed more efficient, but not by nearly as much as you state. On average, L2 charging is about 5% more efficient. Source: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7046253

I've also calculated the charging losses on L1 in my own use for both a PHEV and a BEV. They are in line with the IEEE's figures. And no, EVs don't use 200-400W "maintaining" systems while charging.
I’m familiar with the paper, however lots of smart owners have documented examples of it being higher than they found. Both for parasitic system losses - for the Bolt, that appears to be ~140w as measured with a Kill-a-Watt. but there are also losses associated with conditioning the battery - whether heating or cooling. Most cars seem to be more particular about keeping the battery in a narrow temperature range while charging than while sitting idle, so if you are charging for 20 hours rather than 5, those pre-conditioning losses add up as well.
Conclusion
Charging at 240V is very efficient, and noticeably more efficient than charging at 120V. You will pay about 12% more to charge at 120V compared with charging at 240V. https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/16 ... 2jcnBszQdO
I took a series of measurements last year on 120v to work out efficiency. You can find all the numbers here:
Charging rates, current draw, and efficiency data for 120V charging

At only 5A or 7A 120V as you mention doing, which is only 600W or 840W, your energy use will be dominated by idle load draw (300W) for the car computer systems which all wake up during charging and pack thermal management (anywhere from 0W to 1500W depending on temperature), which will all draw from shore power when plugged in. This leaves close to nothing left to go into your battery.

You need to bump up to 12A (1500W) if possible to get over that base load draw and start seeing some energy go into the battery. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thread ... tts.28072/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thread ... cy.202780/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/c ... fficiency/
https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/shoc ... age.31411/
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