College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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Vulcan
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:19 pm Don’t get me started on H. The sink that FDR used and all :D
:oops:
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Maybe I shouldn’t admit this, and it’s far from being research, but I think we learned more about our 4 kids’ schools during eavesdropping sessions at the cafeteria and local eateries than we did on the official tour. I would try to imagine our child in the conversations; sometimes they fit, other times it would have been awkward.

It’s not nice to eavesdrop; I’m sorry.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by psteinx »

Our family still talks about the cafeteria at UMich we had one lunch at in 2016. Not because of conversational eavesdropping, but rather, because the food was so good there.

This dad also liked the fact that they let us eat for free. :)

FWIW, on the one other serious college trip we did (for oldest kid), we tried to eat on campus. My guess is, though, that if we do a 2022 version, most colleges will be gunshy about letting touring kids/families eat in the cafeterias. (COVID concerns...)
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:32 pm Maybe I shouldn’t admit this, and it’s far from being research, but I think we learned more about our 4 kids’ schools during eavesdropping sessions at the cafeteria and local eateries than we did on the official tour. I would try to imagine our child in the conversations; sometimes they fit, other times it would have been awkward.

It’s not nice to eavesdrop; I’m sorry.
No, I totally get this part, - but again, that is a few minutes of one conversation out of how many thousands that are happening on campus that day.

I am not saying you didn't make the right choice - by any means. But chances are you were just lucky :-)
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:33 pm Your list reminded me of how seemingly random student perceptions are. Our son toured both Yale and Princeton, two seemingly similar schools; hated Princeton and loved Yale. Much is made of fit, but it’s real: he found his “tribe” at Yale.
+1 My experience too. It's amazing how quickly I and my kids could read a school just from the tour and walking around campus. I did a tour with my oldest son and when we left he said "this is the school where I want to go" and I totally agreed.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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Vulcan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:46 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:56 am On the issues of tours and interviews, I am absolutely convinced they make a difference in the application process--that is, improve chances. I was chatting with one admissions officer this year and she flat out said that the school looks to how much interest the kid shows in the school--tour, request interview, participation in school online sessions during the app process.
They make a difference at those schools that consider demonstrated interest.
Whether or not a particular school considers demonstrated interest is clearly indicated in their Common Data Set available on collegedata.com.
Interesting data point. I just looked at my son's two top schools. One said it considered "level of applicant's interest." The other said it didn't. But it's a box on a form. Who knows whether it reflects reality.

P.S., his two top schools are comparable, both in the US News top 10 for National Universities.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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psteinx wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:52 am
chiliagon wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:46 amIf she wants to go to Stanford or Harvard or whatever, she should try. If it doesn’t work out, she’ll be upset for a day and then move on and be fine.
I got rejected from Stanford and Harvard >30 years ago and it still irks me. :(

I got over it though. Mostly. :)

Who cares... college doesnt matter. Money matters.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by alfaspider »

Vulcan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:37 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:32 pm Maybe I shouldn’t admit this, and it’s far from being research, but I think we learned more about our 4 kids’ schools during eavesdropping sessions at the cafeteria and local eateries than we did on the official tour. I would try to imagine our child in the conversations; sometimes they fit, other times it would have been awkward.

It’s not nice to eavesdrop; I’m sorry.
No, I totally get this part, - but again, that is a few minutes of one conversation out of how many thousands that are happening on campus that day.

I am not saying you didn't make the right choice - by any means. But chances are you were just lucky :-)
There's a lot of luck to in retrospect. I remember being 17 and doing college visits. I rejected one college because a student made what I considered a dumb comment about the subject material as they were leaving class. I was probably overgeneralizing when I made the judgment that the student body wasn't that smart.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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cowdogman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:47 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:33 pm Your list reminded me of how seemingly random student perceptions are. Our son toured both Yale and Princeton, two seemingly similar schools; hated Princeton and loved Yale. Much is made of fit, but it’s real: he found his “tribe” at Yale.
+1 My experience too. It's amazing how quickly I and my kids could read a school just from the tour and walking around campus. I did a tour with my oldest son and when we left he said "this is the school where I want to go" and I totally agreed.
So... how do you know your impression was the correct one? The admissions people who typically give their spiels are not going to teach your kid's classes (they are basically salesmen at that point), and the students who work as tour guides might not be the type that will become your kid's future friends.

I am not trying to be confrontational. Even though we didn't tour with our elder (who is very happy with his experience at his top choice), I am open to learning something here, as we have his younger brother to go through this process with in a short while.

But if the whole strategy pivots on criss-crossing the country in the hope of catching an eye-opening conversation at a canteen table, then maybe his time and our money is better invested in studying and tuition :confused :moneybag
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:58 pm
Vulcan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:46 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:56 am On the issues of tours and interviews, I am absolutely convinced they make a difference in the application process--that is, improve chances. I was chatting with one admissions officer this year and she flat out said that the school looks to how much interest the kid shows in the school--tour, request interview, participation in school online sessions during the app process.
They make a difference at those schools that consider demonstrated interest.
Whether or not a particular school considers demonstrated interest is clearly indicated in their Common Data Set available on collegedata.com.
Interesting data point. I just looked at my son's two top schools. One said it considered "level of applicant's interest." The other said it didn't. But it's a box on a form. Who knows whether it reflects reality.

P.S., his two top schools are comparable, both in the US News top 10 for National Universities.
Let me hazard a guess... UChicago? :D
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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Vulcan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:08 pm
cowdogman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:47 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:33 pm Your list reminded me of how seemingly random student perceptions are. Our son toured both Yale and Princeton, two seemingly similar schools; hated Princeton and loved Yale. Much is made of fit, but it’s real: he found his “tribe” at Yale.
+1 My experience too. It's amazing how quickly I and my kids could read a school just from the tour and walking around campus. I did a tour with my oldest son and when we left he said "this is the school where I want to go" and I totally agreed.
So... how do you know your impression was the correct one? The admissions people who typically give their spiels are not going to teach your kid's classes (they are basically salesmen at that point), and the students who work as tour guides might not be the type that will become your kid's future friends.

I am not trying to be confrontational. Even though we didn't tour with our elder (who is very happy with his experience at his top choice), I am open to learning something here, as we have his younger brother to go through this process with in a short while.

But if the whole strategy pivots on criss-crossing the country in the hope of catching an eye-opening conversation at a canteen table, then maybe his time and our money is better invested in studying and tuition :confused :moneybag
It depends on the schools you're looking at. We were always focused on liberal arts colleges and smallish universities (not state schools). Tours at small schools are a lot more immersive (I remember one that lasted 10 hours--9AM to 7PM)--meet with a professor, sit in on a class, have an admissions interview, meet with the admissions director, have lunch in the cafeteria, have a coffee with a student, sit in on another class, attend orchestra practice (as an observer). Some schools offered for my son to stay overnight in a dorm room with students. That was pre-Covid, but even this year it's more than just a walk around campus with a tour guide.

Obviously you can't do that for 30 schools, but a targeted list of maybe 5-7 is definitely doable if you start in September.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Matahari »

OP, there are too many posts for me to read through them, so what I post may be redundant, but here goes...

Our child applied ED to one of those "super-selective" schools (not HYPSM) and got in. We knew going in that we would be paying full freight, so there were many reasons why it worked for her/us. The ED school was one that she was happy to attend. We had toured the school among many others that were also of interest, so there were few surprises. ED provided motivation to get her application completed early enough, though she also had the other applications more or less ready to go if ED had not work out.

Based on our research, it was obvious that super-selective schools are filling ever larger percentages of their freshman class from their ED pools. (You can research this yourself because this information is easily ascertainable for each school.) Keeping in mind that ED applicants also include recruited students (such as athletes), if almost half of the entering class is filled by the time the ED round is complete in mid-December, then all other/RD applicants are vying for a chance at fewer remaining spots.

So, if there is one school that is a good "match" (however that is defined in your context) and you are not concerned about comparing financial aid packages, then your applicant should not relinquish the one opportunity to apply ED at that school in case it provides them with an advantage. [Keep in mind that EA is different, as I'm sure you understand.]
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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psteinx wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:07 pmIn particular, looking for feedback from those who've made extensive visits/tours to reach-y schools. Did the tours really clarify thinking? And if there was a #1 and/or #2 coming out of the tours, and kid got rejected/WL'ed from those schools, how disappointing was it?
We did the grand college tour by happenstance, and it was tremendously helpful. It started at the summer before our high school for our oldest. Her travel sports teams had a weekend tournament in the DC area, followed the next weekend with a tournament in Boston. It also happened that Yale and Harvard had summer camps in her sport that week for rising freshman, so she attended both camps while the rest of the family, including the younger siblings, made a vacation out of it. Since we were already visiting Yale and Harvard, we also hit a bunch of other elite universities on the drive up, as well as on the drive back. We must have driven through and/or walked through close to 20 schools on that week and a half trip.

The visits were very clarifying in determining what the kids wanted or did not want out of a campus. In particular, we found that paying attention to the immediate shopping and residential areas around the campus was very helpful, and something that most colleges ignore. Later on, when the youngest ones were applying to college, they were able to quickly decide on which schools, or types of schools, appealed to them based on those visits. We also made a contest to see who had the best pizza (New Haven won easily) to add some levity to the trip.

As for ED vs. SCEA vs. EA, our oldest did not have a clear favorite, so she applied unrestricted early action to a variety of privates. In addition to top public schools like Michigan, Virginia and Georgia Tech, a partial list of private unrestricted EA schools is as follows:

Caltech
Case Western
Chicago
Georgetown
MIT
Notre Dame
Santa Clara
Southern California
SMU
Villanova

She got into most of her EA schools, and was very happy to have solid choices in mid-December. She ended up applying to two more schools in late December. She took her time with these applications, was accepted to both, and ending up attending one.

Our middle one did have two favorite schools, both of which offered SCEA. She picked the same SCEA school the oldest attended, and then was devastated when the deferral came in. That lead two furious, stressful weeks of applications, which resulted in acceptance to five of the 12 top-20 schools applied to. Fortunately, one of the acceptances was to the original co-favorite school, so it was a happy ending.

Our youngest is in the process now, and is going the unrestricted Early Action route. Unless you have a clear favorite, there are some advantages:

1 - With the exception of MIT, EA does increase the probability of being accepted. It also can dramatically increase the chance of getting merit aid at some schools like USC.

2 - If you get major merit aid, you are not locked into being full pay at an Early Decision only school.

3 - You can use the feedback from the EA round to guide your applications in the RD round. If you are accepted to MIT, Caltech, Chicago or Notre Dame EA, you know you have a good chance of getting into an Ivy if that is your goal. On the other hand, if the EA round acceptances are poor, you know that your sights should be set lower in the RD round.

4 - Even if you hit 25% of your EA round, you know you are going to a good school compared to the all or nothing result of ED/SCEA.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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psteinx wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:29 pm And another nugget from the '18-'19 Tufts CDS:

The total size of their enrolled freshman class was 1484. (Obviously, they admitted more, but presumably using yield projects to target about that size of class.)

But among applicants, they offered *1957* a spot on the waiting list. i.e. Their wait list offers were rather BIGGER than their entire enrolled freshman class.

Of those 1957 offered a spot, 723 accepted a place, and 8 were admitted.

So, 723 kids took a spot on the wait list, holding out hope, but only 8 of them were offered a spot. What's the excuse for this? It smacks of cruelty by the admissions office.
You can pull this info for a college by looking at their CDS, section C2. Colleges typically WL far more students than they have any hope of admitting. Reasons vary from relationship management with legacy admits and/or the applicant's HS, to wanting to fill a specific slot. (Tuba player in Engineering college.) A college that admits no one from the WL one year may admit 200 the next year. Regardless, a WL as large as the entering first year class seems beyond overkill, even for a university that admits at the college or major level.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

cowdogman wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:22 pm
Vulcan wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:08 pm I am not trying to be confrontational. Even though we didn't tour with our elder (who is very happy with his experience at his top choice), I am open to learning something here, as we have his younger brother to go through this process with in a short while.

But if the whole strategy pivots on criss-crossing the country in the hope of catching an eye-opening conversation at a canteen table, then maybe his time and our money is better invested in studying and tuition :confused :moneybag
It depends on the schools you're looking at. We were always focused on liberal arts colleges and smallish universities (not state schools). Tours at small schools are a lot more immersive (I remember one that lasted 10 hours--9AM to 7PM)--meet with a professor, sit in on a class, have an admissions interview, meet with the admissions director, have lunch in the cafeteria, have a coffee with a student, sit in on another class, attend orchestra practice (as an observer). Some schools offered for my son to stay overnight in a dorm room with students. That was pre-Covid, but even this year it's more than just a walk around campus with a tour guide.

Obviously you can't do that for 30 schools, but a targeted list of maybe 5-7 is definitely doable if you start in September.
Yeah. We simply chose to start worrying about choosing a school after schools are done choosing their students.

Luckily, in elder's case that happened early in the cycle, so about this time two years ago we were buying tickets for him to fly out to Caltech and MIT events in April, where admitted student are spending a few days on campus, sleeping in the dorms, eating the food, and the whole shebang.

Of course, we know how all that went come 2000. But in reality, as nice as those experiences would have been for him, he didn't really need to go on campus to know where he wanted to go.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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After discussion with kid, revised tentative plan is a somewhat smaller Midwest-ish tour. Albeit, not too small, because good Midwest schools are spread apart.

Probably Vandy, Ohio State, Carnegie Mellon, UMich, Valpo, Purdue.

May be conveniently close to Stanford in the summer and so check it out.

Otherwise leaning towards EA/RD, blast out apps, see where she gets in, and maybe tour a few more, then.

Of course, plans could change, including based on the Spring Break tour...
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by StevieG72 »

My kiddo finds out today if she was accepted at UVA, binding ED.

She will be disappointed if she doesn’t get in. I liked VT better myself which is her 2nd choice.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by livesoft »

psteinx wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:07 pm[...]Defining reach is tricky, as well as what schools are on her list, but I would have her at least considering MIT, Stanford, Penn, Mich., CMU, GaTech, Wash U, Rice, Ga. Tech, Duke, and maybe some other elites (other Ivies, Hopkins, etc.), plus some true safeties.
[...]
In particular, looking for feedback from those who've made extensive visits/tours to reach-y schools. Did the tours really clarify thinking? And if there was a #1 and/or #2 coming out of the tours, and kid got rejected/WL'ed from those schools, how disappointing was it?
Late to this query. My daughter was admitted to every university that she planned and executed her own visit to without parental interference. Some of them are in your list I quoted. My spouse and I didn't go with her on her visits. She was admitted to other schools she did not visit and was not admitted to some other schools she did not visit. Whatever.

There were no disappointments from rejections. I suppose a tour clarified thinking, but I was not involved. OTOH, my son applied to a single university, did not visit it (Why bother Dad as it is only place I am applying!) and was not disappointed. Graduated on time and got a great job in his "guild" doing exactly what he wanted to do which was also the outcome for his sister.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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I am proud to report that my little girl will be attending UVA in the fall.

She worked very hard at getting her SAT scores up and spared no effort in her admission essays.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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StevieG72 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:31 pm I am proud to report that my little girl will be attending UVA in the fall.

She worked very hard at getting her SAT scores up and spared no effort in her admission essays.
Wahoowa! Congrats to your daughter!

One of mine was admitted to his ED school, and it was such a relief to be finished in December. The other was deferred from his SCEA school, submitted nine more RD apps, and was then admitted to the original SCEA school in the RD round. So-many-essays!
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Katietsu »

psteinx wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 pm After discussion with kid, revised tentative plan is a somewhat smaller Midwest-ish tour. Albeit, not too small, because good Midwest schools are spread apart.

Probably Vandy, Ohio State, Carnegie Mellon, UMich, Valpo, Purdue.

May be conveniently close to Stanford in the summer and so check it out.

Otherwise leaning towards EA/RD, blast out apps, see where she gets in, and maybe tour a few more, then.

Of course, plans could change, including based on the Spring Break tour...
I am familiar with over 1/2 the schools and campuses collectively on your first, second and third itineraries. I am surprised by this latest as it seems to tilt differently than what I expected from your previous posts. Curious as to how this evolves.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by psteinx »

This latest version is a bit more about geographic convenience (starting from St. Louis area)...

That said, UMich is strong for engineering, CMU for CS especially but also engineering. Purdue is safety-ish, as is Valpo. Vandy seems interesting, and it's closer to home than most others. Ohio State is basically on the way, but perhaps skippable...
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by BernardShakey »

StevieG72 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:31 pm I am proud to report that my little girl will be attending UVA in the fall.

She worked very hard at getting her SAT scores up and spared no effort in her admission essays.
Congrats....a great education at a reasonable price :D
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by tenkuky »

I am curious how people are locking in ED when the amount of merit or other aid for some schools is not knowable till later.
Is there benefit to going EA rather than ED to allow that flexibility?
We applied to 4 in-state and waiting to hear EA but merit scholarships and other competitions don’t happen till Feb and resulted early April.
We have zero chance at need aid.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by HereToLearn »

tenkuky wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:12 am I am curious how people are locking in ED when the amount of merit or other aid for some schools is not knowable till later.
Is there benefit to going EA rather than ED to allow that flexibility?
We applied to 4 in-state and waiting to hear EA but merit scholarships and other competitions don’t happen till Feb and resulted early April.
We have zero chance at need aid.
EA does allow one the flexibility, whereas ED usually offers an admission advantage. EA can at some schools, but not to the extent that ED does. It really does vary by college.

Students applying ED have to be able to pay the cost outlined on the NPC. If the financial aid award does not match the NPC's amount, that is a reason to decline the offer of admission, but the NPCs are usually quite accurate, so one should understand that ED is a binding commitment, and not apply if the family cannot afford the amount the NPC produces.

In your situation, EA is the correct route. Best of luck to your applicant.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by DidItMyWay »

StevieG72 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:31 pm I am proud to report that my little girl will be attending UVA in the fall.

She worked very hard at getting her SAT scores up and spared no effort in her admission essays.
Big Congrats to her! Great school.
Slow and steady wins the race.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by DidItMyWay »

HereToLearn wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:34 am
tenkuky wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:12 am I am curious how people are locking in ED when the amount of merit or other aid for some schools is not knowable till later.
Is there benefit to going EA rather than ED to allow that flexibility?
We applied to 4 in-state and waiting to hear EA but merit scholarships and other competitions don’t happen till Feb and resulted early April.
We have zero chance at need aid.
EA does allow one the flexibility, whereas ED usually offers an admission advantage. EA can at some schools, but not to the extent that ED does. It really does vary by college.

Students applying ED have to be able to pay the cost outlined on the NPC. If the financial aid award does not match the NPC's amount, that is a reason to decline the offer of admission, but the NPCs are usually quite accurate, so one should understand that ED is a binding commitment, and not apply if the family cannot afford the amount the NPC produces.

In your situation, EA is the correct route. Best of luck to your applicant.
Yes, this exactly.

Best of luck!
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by gips »

psteinx wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 pm After discussion with kid, revised tentative plan is a somewhat smaller Midwest-ish tour. Albeit, not too small, because good Midwest schools are spread apart.

Probably Vandy, Ohio State, Carnegie Mellon, UMich, Valpo, Purdue.

May be conveniently close to Stanford in the summer and so check it out.

Otherwise leaning towards EA/RD, blast out apps, see where she gets in, and maybe tour a few more, then.

Of course, plans could change, including based on the Spring Break tour...
sorry not to have read the whole thread, here are some thoughts on your OP:
- we combined for-purpose college trips with opportunistic visits: visiting DC? go see georgetown. Family vacation driving from LA to San Fran? visit Berkeley and Stanford.
- IMO, identifying a safety school that your daughter loves should be your first step. One of my friends, new to the application process, had his valedictorian, perfect sat score D apply to 8 elites, and a state school. Not a happy day after their D received her 8th rejection. Safeties can be tricky for high stats kids since some schools reject to protect their yield.
- EAs are a beautiful thing. After our son was admitted EA to very good school, we all relaxed about the process and he focused his attention on just a few elites.
- Obviously if she's applying ED, or ED2 she needs to visit the school
- Personally, I think it's difficult to write a good "why school x" essay for an elite school without a visit. Most admissions officers agree.
- I hear from friends/have read in this thread comments like "we knew in 30 minutes it was (or was not) the right school". I'd counsel caution around a 17-18 yo kid (or inexperienced parent) making these sort of snap judgments. Questions to ask yourself include:
- how did the weather effect our evaluation of the school? I(everyone is happy on warm, sunny day)
- how did the tour guide effect our evaluation of the school? Tour guides are generally well-spoken, trained and experienced in marketing their school.
- how did the admissions office talk effect our evaluation of the school? Most of these people are effective marketers, hoping to harvest the maximum number of applications to find the best candidate pool and create high selectivity statistics.
- Not sure if your D attends a private school now? My ex business partners sent their kids to top private schools and their college counseling office provided perfectly accurate guidance: "apply to dartmouth ed, 100% guarantee she'll get in" another "apply to u chicago ed, we've spoken to the school, he's in"

finally, if you're like me and (over) analyze everything, it's truly daunting to gain admission to some of these schools. My D was interested in Middlebury, think through male/female split, legacies, sports teams, URMs, geographic balance, etc. and the top, small lacs seem very, very tough. Makes ED all the more attractive...
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by psteinx »

gips' post kinda recapitulates some of the basic issues:

1) Even with ~perfect stats, admissions to elites are a crapshoot (valedictorian, perfect SAT, 0 for 8 at elites).

2) You can likely bump your odds somewhat by applying ED, but that's a questionable move if you haven't seen the school.

3) Even for EA/RD applications, seeing the school may be helpful for the application ("Why U of XYZ"?), and in any case, you'd want to see it if your kid DID get in and you were serious about it.

4) But, to maximize your chances of getting into an elite, you need to consider/apply to many, but visiting many schools is time consuming and costly, and junior may get a lot of rejection letters, which sting a little more if junior has a top choice he's visited, and has the t-shirt for.

===

FWIW, our kids have all gone to the same public high school, with 1 college counselor for the school of ~1300, and the focus seems to be on affordability for local/in-state schools, and backup options for those not college-bound. The implicit assumption seems to be that the limited # of kids with realistic shots at elites can fend for themselves. Not necessarily a terrible assumption, but not too helpful to us, either.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by gips »

psteinx wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:05 pm FWIW, our kids have all gone to the same public high school, with 1 college counselor for the school of ~1300, and the focus seems to be on affordability for local/in-state schools, and backup options for those not college-bound. The implicit assumption seems to be that the limited # of kids with realistic shots at elites can fend for themselves. Not necessarily a terrible assumption, but not too helpful to us, either.
indeed, our kids attended a highly rated public school of 450 students, our oldest met with his guidance counselor who presented him with a computerized list of matches and wished him luck. we didnt bother having the other kids meet with them.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by MMiroir »

psteinx wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 pm After discussion with kid, revised tentative plan is a somewhat smaller Midwest-ish tour. Albeit, not too small, because good Midwest schools are spread apart.

Probably Vandy, Ohio State, Carnegie Mellon, UMich, Valpo, Purdue.

May be conveniently close to Stanford in the summer and so check it out.

Otherwise leaning towards EA/RD, blast out apps, see where she gets in, and maybe tour a few more, then.

Of course, plans could change, including based on the Spring Break tour...
With your D's profile, you might look at the University of Pittsburgh which is right next door to Carnegie Mellon, and Case Western which is not that far off the drive to Pittsburgh. She would likely get large merit awards at both schools.

Another one to consider is Rose-Hulman in Terre Haute. A small technical school, they have a good reputation and placement. They would also throw money at a high stats girl. Those three schools might be considered safeties with a strong potential for merit aid for your daughter if she shows demonstrated interest.
psteinx wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:08 pmi.e. College visits are costly, on multiple dimensions. $-wise, of course. But also time (in an absolute sense, and, especially if you're aiming to do them when a college is in-session, you may have few if any opportunties to conveniently do so without disrupting your kid's HS schedule.) Also, potentially, psychologically, if you visit a reach-y school early, your kid falls in love with it, but then gets rejected, and may feel like they're settling for their ultimate pick.
Psychologically, we made sure that our kids knew not make any emotional attachments to schools, and to approach the whole process in the most analytical way possible. Only after the admittance and financial affordability are secured should emotions enter the equation. In other words, don't fall in love until you get in and the parents sign off on the cost.

If your daughter is looking at CS, we found the following study to be useful.

https://www.ivyachievement.com/computer ... -rankings/
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by psteinx »

MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 pmPsychologically, we made sure that our kids knew not make any emotional attachments to schools, and to approach the whole process in the most analytical way possible. Only after the admittance and financial affordability are secured should emotions enter the equation. In other words, don't fall in love until you get in and the parents sign off on the cost.
This is also why wait lists can be frustrating. Middle son got WL'ed at UMich. Based on the stats I looked at at the time, there was some not entirely unreasonable chance he could get in off the wait list - something like 5-10%. But that would mean being on a sort of emotional hold from ~April until ~July, then still getting rejected 90-95% of the time. I recommended to him, and he did, accept the offer at his safety, and decline the UMich waitlist. He then had a few months to focus on his safety, and some day ca. May (of his HS senior year), we went down there, he took the math placement test, looked at housing options, and I think signed up for his fall classes.

Yes, kids can get over a rejection from school A, and build some level of enthusiasm for backup B, but it's not ideal, and you don't want to yank on their hopes and emotions TOO much...
Last edited by psteinx on Mon Dec 13, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

HereToLearn wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:28 pm So-many-essays!
When our elder was analyzing essay prompts of the schools he was applying to, it became evident that most of them fell into one of the two categories:

Who Are You?

and

What Do You Want?

Even if one has not seen Babylon 5 and does not know the characters, I feel strongly that watching these two short clips will be of help, as will thinking through these two important questions.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by jabberwockOG »

Last year Stanford received over 45,000 applications to fill a 1,730 person freshman class. Once you subtract out football, basketball, track, cheerleaders, swimming, band, and some specialty majors out of the 1,730 number, the remaining open slots go to a VERY small group. In general top 10 schools can fill the non athlete, non band, non legacy, non specialized majors, etc., remaining openings in their freshman class 10 to 20 times over with the best of the best. If you aren't a famous politician or a celebrity, or don't have special connections at a school, or your child is not an Olympic trials level swimmer/track star, gaining admission (even for the valedictorian, eagle scout, first chair french horn player, with a 36 ACT) to the tiny number of remaining openings at a top 10 school is very much a lottery.

Better to spend your time and effort seeing schools where your child has a realistic chance of being admitted - seeing a sample of urban versus rural location, as well as large school size versus small school size.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 pm If your daughter is looking at CS, we found the following study to be useful.

https://www.ivyachievement.com/computer ... -rankings/
I agree it's an interesting study - I was looking at it two years ago when elder was weighing his options.

Their methodology is simple: 50% relative top tech employment and 50% median starting pay.
As they quickly find, it produces some surprises.

"MIT graduates have high starting salaries but are not as represented at top tech companies. This is probably not because they can’t get jobs at the top companies, but because they go to smaller, less established companies.
...
MIT’s relatively low ranking was a bit surprising. As seen above, it takes a hit because of its job placement statistics."


Top tech companies might be household names, but they are far from top of the food chain where it comes to competing for top-notch talent.

https://www.levels.fyi/internships/

Our MIT sophomore turned down a FAANG summer internship offer in favor of a significantly more lucrative, and, more importantly, more stimulating one (the technical level of interview wasn't in the same league between the two).

In reading this study, I'd pay more attention to starting salary than to top tech employment component, lest you are left to believe that Duke and Dartmouth graduate better computer programmers than MIT.

But you certainly can't go wrong with Caltech either;)

Image
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If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

gips wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:11 pm - Personally, I think it's difficult to write a good "why school x" essay for an elite school without a visit. Most admissions officers agree.
I guess what is considered "elite" is a question of definition, but most top schools do not have a "why us" type of essay.

This is more common for those a tier below that are unduly concerned about their yield numbers.

They are typically the same ones that consider applicant's "level of interest".

So one would want to be visiting those anyways. If they wanted to play along. We didn't.

Not sure if DS's getting waitlisted at Rice had anything to do with it :P
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by MMiroir »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:28 pmIn reading this study, I'd pay more attention to starting salary than to top tech employment component, lest you want to believe that Duke and Darthmouth graduates better computer programmers than MIT.

But you certainly can't go wrong with Caltech either;)

Image
MIT seems to place a higher percentage of CS grads than their piers into fintech or IB which won't show up as a major tech company in the survey.
The same is true for the Ivies. Proximity to New York compared to the California schools is likely a significant factor.

Another anomaly is that Berkeley and Stanford placed more software engineers into big tech than graduated with a CS degree. This is likely due to Ivy Achievement missing that both schools have CS-lite degrees such as Symbolic Systems that don't show up as a CS/CE degree.

If the OP wants to do a deep dive into the admissions processes that elite schools utilize and understands multiple regressions, reading through the plaintiffs expert report prepared by Dr. Peter Arcidiacono in the STUDENTS FOR FAIR ADMISSIONS v. PRESIDENT AND FELLOWS OF HARVARD COLLEGE lawsuit makes for some illuminating reading as to what factors tip the scales at Harvard. The other tippy top schools all have similar practices.

https://samv91khoyt2i553a2t1s05i-wpengi ... Report.pdf

Similarly, the Justice Department lawsuit covers much of this information, and page 23 has a nifty chart that breaks down acceptance rates by academic decile. If you have a firm idea of your child's academic standing, you can get a better idea of their chance of acceptance.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-relea ... 6/download
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

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MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:07 pm MIT seems to place a higher percentage of CS grads than their piers into fintech or IB which won't show up as a major tech company in the survey.
The same is true for the Ivies. Proximity to New York compared to the California schools is likely a significant factor.
No doubt. I wanted to add a comment on the geographic aspect as well. But even WPI & RPI are to the right of MIT on this chart.

So, all in all, I'd say it's a less useful metric than salary.

They'd probably get a more familiar-looking final ranking result if they reduced the weight of the "tech placement" in favor of starting salary.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by gips »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:42 pm
gips wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:11 pm - Personally, I think it's difficult to write a good "why school x" essay for an elite school without a visit. Most admissions officers agree.
I guess what is considered "elite" is a question of definition, but most top schools do not have a "why us" type of essay.
really, you've done some sort of survey? I took a quick look, I suppose most people consider princeton elite?
"As a research institution that also prides itself on its liberal arts curriculum, Princeton allows students to explore areas across the humanities and the arts, the natural sciences, and the social sciences. What academic areas most pique your curiosity, and how do the programs offered at Princeton suit your particular interests?"

yale?
"What is it about Yale that has led you to apply?"

bowdoin?
"n fact, you might even be able to sneak in one of the key reasons you’re applying. "

As bowdoin hints, it's a little naïve to think essays that don't explicitly prompt for "why school x" aren't looking for how the essay connects to their school.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

gips wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:44 pm
Vulcan wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:42 pm
gips wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 12:11 pm - Personally, I think it's difficult to write a good "why school x" essay for an elite school without a visit. Most admissions officers agree.
I guess what is considered "elite" is a question of definition, but most top schools do not have a "why us" type of essay.
really, you've done some sort of survey? I took a quick look, I suppose most people consider princeton elite?
"As a research institution that also prides itself on its liberal arts curriculum, Princeton allows students to explore areas across the humanities and the arts, the natural sciences, and the social sciences. What academic areas most pique your curiosity, and how do the programs offered at Princeton suit your particular interests?"

yale?
"What is it about Yale that has led you to apply?"

bowdoin?
"n fact, you might even be able to sneak in one of the key reasons you’re applying. "

As bowdoin hints, it's a little naïve to think essays that don't explicitly prompt for "why school x" aren't looking for how the essay connects to their school.
That was just the general impression I was left with from going through the process two years ago with our elder. I just looked at his apps to refresh my memory, and you are correct.

Even though that particular Princeton prompt was not there at the time, at least for engineering applicants. But there was a similarly worded question about its engineering program.

There was indeed a Why Yale question (though he ended up not sending in that app).

He wrote four main essays (codenamed "Common App", "Who are You?", "What Do You Want?", and "Why Us") that were either submitted largely as is, or in some cases served as material for creative combining. Some college specifics he researched were added to the general "Why Us" template: here are my goals, and here are some examples of how your school fits in (based on what he learned about specific opportunities from school's websites).

So it just wasn't a big thing and I thus didn't remember it as such. FWIW, he did not have any rejections (he did withdraw his UChicago app after EA deferral with an offer to switch to ED2), but there were several waitlist offers from top schools that were not his top choices. We will never know if they could smell that, if some other part of the application was lacking in their view, or if there were just too many athletes and legacies ahead in the line (his top choices don't have legacy preferences, and their athletic preferences are a lot weaker than typical), and whether his Why Us essay was a negative factor in him not getting an admission offer or a positive one in him not getting outright rejected.

Either way, I stand corrected on the results (or rather my memory of) this admittedly unrepresentative survey.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Mainlandjones »

My DD just got into a very good LAC via ED. We toured about 8 colleges over the summer (in bunches), and did quick stops at a few more. While this did take time and some money, we did it instead of a vacation (many were in nice areas).

She also applied to a handful of EA schools. Most of these didn’t require additional essays. If she was rejected by her ED school, especially if she didn’t have some good EA acceptances, it would have been a very stressful holiday season to pull together the RD shotgun approach for January due dates.

So OP, while you may feel like the ED may not be worth the up front time/effort, if your student is successful ED1 it saves a ton of effort not having to deal with RD round. Also, for us it was great doing the tours, essay writing and other app prep over the summer to be ready for ED1, it let her focus on high school and ECs in the fall.

Best of luck!
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by tenkuky »

MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 pm
psteinx wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 pm
With your D's profile, you might look at the University of Pittsburgh which is right next door to Carnegie Mellon, and Case Western which is not that far off the drive to Pittsburgh. She would likely get large merit awards at both schools.
We looked at UPitt and didn't proceed.
Their merit awards for non PA residents are not good.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by MMiroir »

tenkuky wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:02 am
MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 pm
psteinx wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 pm
With your D's profile, you might look at the University of Pittsburgh which is right next door to Carnegie Mellon, and Case Western which is not that far off the drive to Pittsburgh. She would likely get large merit awards at both schools.
We looked at UPitt and didn't proceed.
Their merit awards for non PA residents are not good.
It depends. When we looked at Pitt, if you applied by the EA date and had an ACT score of 35 or 36 like the OP's daughters, they would offer an automatic full tuition scholarship. Some kids with a 34 also got full tuition scholarships, but if you had a 32 or below, there would be no merit offer. Also, Pitt offered a number of full cost of attendance scholarships to high test scorers that were competitive.

Looking at their website, they have dropped the ACT/SAT component to their scholarships, which makes the whole process much more nebulous.

https://financialaid.pitt.edu/types-of- ... olarships/
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by MMiroir »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:23 pm
MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:07 pm MIT seems to place a higher percentage of CS grads than their piers into fintech or IB which won't show up as a major tech company in the survey.
The same is true for the Ivies. Proximity to New York compared to the California schools is likely a significant factor.
No doubt. I wanted to add a comment on the geographic aspect as well. But even WPI & RPI are to the right of MIT on this chart.

So, all in all, I'd say it's a less useful metric than salary.

They'd probably get a more familiar-looking final ranking result if they reduced the weight of the "tech placement" in favor of starting salary.
I tend to agree, but there would be fewer charts and graphs if they eliminated the tech placement component. Also, while tech placement should not be an issue for a school like MIT, it is an issue at lower ranked schools that struggle to place kids at FAANG. We found that at many state flagships or mid level privates, most CS graduates ended up working in IT at non-tech companies. While the jobs paid well initially, they did not offer the long term salary growth or career opportunities that pure tech companies offer. I know a couple of CS grads in their mid 20's that worked at traditional financial/insurance institutions, and they jumped at the chance to join a purely tech company. In that case, for a kid choosing between two state flagships or mid level privates for CS, the school with a higher tech placement rate would be preferred even if average starting salaries for both schools were similar.
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

MMiroir wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:16 am
tenkuky wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:02 am
MMiroir wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 2:43 pm
psteinx wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:28 pm With your D's profile, you might look at the University of Pittsburgh which is right next door to Carnegie Mellon, and Case Western which is not that far off the drive to Pittsburgh. She would likely get large merit awards at both schools.
We looked at UPitt and didn't proceed.
Their merit awards for non PA residents are not good.
It depends. When we looked at Pitt, if you applied by the EA date and had an ACT score of 35 or 36 like the OP's daughters, they would offer an automatic full tuition scholarship. Some kids with a 34 also got full tuition scholarships, but if you had a 32 or below, there would be no merit offer. Also, Pitt offered a number of full cost of attendance scholarships to high test scorers that were competitive.
DS applied there two years ago as a putative financial safety, and we expected at least a full tuition merit offer based on past experiences shared online.

Didn't get a penny, despite his perfect GPA & ACT, and national & international level recognitions in STEM and his intended major - CS. Ended up more expensive than MIT (where we got approx 30% need-based discount off sticker).

It looked like, based on some reports of people with significantly lower basic stats (grades/scores) getting attractive offers, that they used merit money to attract desired demographic that year - which may bode well for girls in engineering.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by Vulcan »

MMiroir wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:33 am
Vulcan wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:23 pm They'd probably get a more familiar-looking final ranking result if they reduced the weight of the "tech placement" in favor of starting salary.
I tend to agree, but there would be fewer charts and graphs if they eliminated the tech placement component. Also, while tech placement should not be an issue for a school like MIT, it is an issue at lower ranked schools that struggle to place kids at FAANG. We found that at many state flagships or mid level privates, most CS graduates ended up working in IT at non-tech companies. While the jobs paid well initially, they did not offer the long term salary growth or career opportunities that pure tech companies offer. I know a couple of CS grads in their mid 20's that worked at traditional financial/insurance institutions, and they jumped at the chance to join a purely tech company. In that case, for a kid choosing between two state flagships or mid level privates for CS, the school with a higher tech placement rate would be preferred even if average starting salaries for both schools were similar.
It is also really hard to separate the value-added effect of the institution over and above the pre-existing student body differences between different schools. This is where things quickly get philosophical.

Me, personally? I just look at the median ACT score range. The last bastion of objectivity, it measures directly and consistently across the board the one factor I care most about: peer group quality - and somewhat dampens many a school's claims to eliteness.

And when schools say "we could fill our class several times over with students who could do the work here" - I say: well, then up the level of your work!
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
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Re: College visits, strategies (and ED vs. RD)

Post by psteinx »

Vulcan wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:50 am Me, personally? I just look at the median ACT score range. The last bastion of objectivity, it measures directly and consistently across the board the one factor I care most about: peer group quality - and somewhat dampens many a school's claims to eliteness.
Median ACT (or SAT) is the best of a bad lot. Better than the others, but far from perfect. Given two kids with identical underlying IQs, similar drive, and similar academic progression through, say the end of 8th grade, there are ways to bump up the ACT score of the more resourced kid, including, but not limited to, heavy test prep.

Also, it's not a clear distinguisher at higher end schools. I've got a spreadsheet with data on potential colleges for daughter. The ACT data may be somewhat out of date in some cases, but of the 23 schools on the list, 7 of them have an identical 34.0 midpoint of 25th-75th percentile ACT.

Stanford, maybe the hardest school to get into, actually has a slightly lower figure of 33.5, per my data...
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