Wheel alignment upsell

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adamthesmythe
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Wheel alignment upsell

Post by adamthesmythe »

Had the car in for an included 15000 mile service. The service guy tried to sell me a wheel alignment and balance.

I declined- but I'm wondering- when and why should one do these things?

My present thinking is to watch for uneven wear or strange handling, but is there any other signal??
Normchad
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Normchad »

Look for uneven wear.

I’ll be honest, I’ve never once had an alignment done on any of my cars, in 35 years of driving. The roads where I live are generally. Rey good and smooth, so that helps.I get 50,000+ miles out of the tires. Eire they fail the annual safety inspection….

I did have my tires balanced once, and that was helpful. In that case, the symptom was a vibration while driving……

Edit. I did have an alignment done once when the power steering rack had to be replaced on my car.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by RickBoglehead »

Discount Tire does free balance and rotation.
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neilpilot
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by neilpilot »

Shortly after I bought a 2 year old Mercedes, I visited the dealer for a rear seat belt recall. Most owners of this model were reporting very fast treadwear on this model's OEM run flat tires, and on mine about half the tread was gone at 13k miles, even though the tires were rated for 65k miles.

The Mercedes dealer came back wanting to sell me an alignment, even though the treadwear was even across on all 4 tires. It was obvious I didn't need an alignment, just a better tire. So I declined, and at 19k miles I switched to a different non-runflat tire.
ClassII
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by ClassII »

Generally it's smart to get it done when you buy new tires or if you hit a curb or even a nasty pot hole. Obviously if you notice the car not tracking properly (constantly have to hold the wheel to go straight while on a level road).

Recently, I thought I just had really old tires but even after new ones from Costco the car just never rode all that great. The car drove generally pretty straight so I didn't think anything of alignment but it felt like the tires were out of balance slightly even though they were reportedly fine. Its a pretty low-end car so I figured it was just how it was. Friend of mine said I was nuts to not get an alignment with a new set of tires so on the following oil change it had it done. Car drives noticeably better now and it was only about $130 to have it done. Its not just about steering but also how the tire meets the road in all 3 dimensions.
Last edited by ClassII on Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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whodidntante
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by whodidntante »

I've never heard of a car that needed an alignment after 15k miles as a maintenance thing.
If they replaced a steering or suspension component or if you hit a curb and the car caught enough air to get a Waylon Jenning's voiceover, reasonable. But the owner's manual will tell you if it is recommended at 15k miles.

If you would like, you can report the dealer to the manufacturer. Manufacturers hate this kind of stuff because it would lead to customers going around saying "that Toyota is junk. I have to get an alignment every 15k miles."
Big Dog
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Big Dog »

I try to get a wheel alignment with every new set of tires. Other than that, I keep an eye out for uneven wear.
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whodidntante
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by whodidntante »

RickBoglehead wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:35 pm Discount Tire does free balance and rotation.
Cool, but OP is talking about something else. Discount Tire does not even perform alignments.
Normchad
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Normchad »

whodidntante wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:43 pm I've never heard of a car that needed an alignment after 15k miles as a maintenance thing.
If they replaced a steering or suspension component or if you hit a curb and the car caught enough air to get a Waylon Jenning's voiceover, reasonable. But the owner's manual will tell you if it is recommended at 15k miles.

If you would like, you can report the dealer to the manufacturer. Manufacturers hate this kind of stuff because it would lead to customers going around saying "that Toyota is junk. I have to get an alignment every 15k miles."
I think I will use your “Waylon Jennings” test in the future. Thanks for the great tip!
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Tubes
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Tubes »

15000 is simply outrageous. Cars today are good for years, maybe lifetime, if not abused or in any incidents.

Between my wife and myself, our cars have only needed one alignment in the past 25 years. It was showing in the tire wear at 110000 miles. I got new tires at Discount Tire. As mentioned above, they don't do alignments. They suggested a nearby local independent shop. That shop did a great job at a fair price.

This dealer upsell stuff is out of control.
sport
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by sport »

When I drove GM cars, I had the wheels aligned fairly often and the tires wore unevenly anyway. Since I started driving Toyotas, I have never had the wheels aligned and the tires have always worn evenly.
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Tubes
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Tubes »

sport wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:07 pm When I drove GM cars, I had the wheels aligned fairly often and the tires wore unevenly anyway. Since I started driving Toyotas, I have never had the wheels aligned and the tires have always worn evenly.
My last GM car was a 2000 model and I had it for 15 years and 170000. No alignment ever required. I think even the general has improved in this area in the recent era. I'll agree that pre 90s era GMs were loose.

Routine alignments are a thing of the past for just about any brand if you typically drive on well paved roads.

Of course, always be aware of the feel of the car looking for any pull, and check your tires for bad wear patterns.
260chrisb
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by 260chrisb »

adamthesmythe wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:24 pm Had the car in for an included 15000 mile service. The service guy tried to sell me a wheel alignment and balance.

I declined- but I'm wondering- when and why should one do these things?

My present thinking is to watch for uneven wear or strange handling, but is there any other signal??
The equipment needed to perform wheel alignments is expensive and looks really serious in a dealers service area. This is a huge profit center for them. Short of you seeing consistent uneven tire wear, your car is really tracking poorly, you've hit something, hit a pothole, or have damaged your suspension in some way, there is virtually never a need for an alignment. I've replaced wheels, tires, shocks, complete suspensions, suspension components, ball joints etc., and never did an alignment. My guess is they wanted about $150.00 for this? You did the right thing.
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Kagord
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Kagord »

I watch for uneven tire wear, there's sometimes colored markings or rubber nibs on the tread when new tires are put on, and you can check after 20-30 miles to see if they are wearing evenly.

As far as tire wear, worn out struts can chew through tires as well (not to mention the braking and cornering safety issues worn out struts cause).

So, yeah, I'd only get an alignment if I noticed uneven wear, or replacing suspension/steering parts if you are DIY doing that. Also, I've always have been able to get a computer alignment for around $60-70 in the past with a coupon from some local shops (and I like to get a printout before and after of the adjustments), I try to avoid any type of nationwide oil change service shops.
fleetwdl
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by fleetwdl »

I've had new cars that need alignment. By the time you see uneven wear, the tire is shot and will not get better even with alignment. While alignment is a popular upsell, getting it done once is probably worth it. After that you may not need it often unless you are driving in a rough environment.
Rajsx
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Rajsx »

I buy Firestone Lifetime Alignment on each of the 2 cars we have.
I think the Lifetime is around $ 150 to 160, where as a single time Alignment is around $90.
I go there once a year for Alignment Check/Done if needed. I am known to hit/drive over the curb in our city.
I do not know if it helps, but at times they do show me the diagrams showing the car needed it. YMMV
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I've had alignments done at a shop maybe 5 times in my life. One was after shocks were installed at a dealer, once when I had to replace a front control arm. I've owned 3 dozen cars over that time. I will note that I have done my own string alignments myself for racecars. I do own a camber/caster gauge, so can measure angles myself. I've also measured bump steer to re-position the steering rack location on a racecar. (bump steer is the change in toe over the travel of the suspension)

Why do you need an alignment? Because something has been moved, like when the suspension comes apart for repairs or when something is bent, which again is going to involve repairs that move something. New tires? Ok, tell me why the suspension geometry changes with new tires. It doesn't.

In most modern cars, without going to aftermarket parts, the only thing that's adjustable is toe.
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killjoy2012
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by killjoy2012 »

A lot of this depends on where you live, condition of the roads & your driving style. I live in the Midwest where the road conditions are terrible, and yes, alignments are occasionally needed and even legit recommended when installing new tires. This is also the land of where people with low profile tires commonly crack rims annually due to the same potholes and poor road conditions.

Generally speaking, you should be able to notice uneven tire wear and/or car not driving straight w/o correction when the alignment is way off. Older vehicles commonly need alignment more frequently than new since the components that hold that alignment tend to wear and get loose over time.

Having traveling throughout most of the USA, yes, I could see people living in the South and West never needing an alignment. However, come up to Chicago, Detroit, NYC and we'll show you why alignments can be needed. Road conditions aren't even close to being the same.
whomever
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by whomever »

Wheel alignment is important, but it's not a wear item like oil changes. I had a car that went 285k miles without an alignment, or need for one (and it didn't need alignment at 285K either, we sold it because we wanted air conditioning). Across all our lifetime vehicles, which much be pushing a million miles in aggregate, we have had to have a car aligned once, following suspension component replacement. FWIW, this includes frequent driving on unpaved roads. If you aren't seeing symptoms of uneven tire wear or steering problems your alignment is fine.



Balancing is similar - get tires balanced when mounted and unless a wheel weight falls off they should be fine for the life of the tire. I have heard people say they can become unbalanced from wear. I'm not sure what the mechanism would be, and it is something I have yet to encounter personally.
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midareff
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by midareff »

adamthesmythe wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:24 pm Had the car in for an included 15000 mile service. The service guy tried to sell me a wheel alignment and balance.

I declined- but I'm wondering- when and why should one do these things?

My present thinking is to watch for uneven wear or strange handling, but is there any other signal??
I have a long history of fleet management experience and while I don't claim to be expert I'd guess I'm past novice at this point. If nothing is shaking or bouncing around at highway speed it is unlikely you need to have your tires rebalanced. I check my tires periodically for tread depth, inner, center and outer groves, all tires around. Assuming no cupping or uneven tire wear, the remaining issue in general is tire life. An overly aggressive toe setting, front or rear, can increase tire wear uniformly.

Many, or most dealerships and private garages suggest sell as part of their business practice to generate more sales and profit. A couple months ago I took my car in for a scheduled service and the service writer suggested an alignment for $250 .. just absurd. .. some tire centers do it for free when you buy, balance and mount 4.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by lazydavid »

killjoy2012 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:37 am A lot of this depends on where you live, condition of the roads & your driving style. I live in the Midwest where the road conditions are terrible, and yes, alignments are occasionally needed and even legit recommended when installing new tires. This is also the land of where people with low profile tires commonly crack rims annually due to the same potholes and poor road conditions.
This. I get an alignment every time I bend or break a wheel, which thankfully has been quite a few years now. Given that a full set of UHP summer tires costs over $1400 and already wear fairly quickly, $100 is cheap insurance to make sure they don't wear any faster. Also got one when replacing suspension components last year.

But unless you have unusual tire rare or something has obviously happened (impact or component replacement), generally alignment holds for a very long time.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by rich126 »

whodidntante wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:46 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:35 pm Discount Tire does free balance and rotation.
Cool, but OP is talking about something else. Discount Tire does not even perform alignments.
I don't know about Discount Tire but Mr. Tire does and I often wonder if they use it to make a few $$$ when the customer comes in for the "free" rotation/balance on the tires.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by quantAndHold »

When you need an alignment, you need an alignment. I had one car that did actually need alignments every year or so…back in the 80’s. The 2nd time it needed it, I went to an alignment shop and bought the “lifetime” alignment package, and just kept taking it in. I think every other car or truck I’ve had needed at most, one or two alignments, either when it was new, or after I hit something. I will probably take the motorhome for an alignment once I get new tires. The tires are expensive and the motorhome gets a lot of rough use. The cars, though, have probably both had their last alignments. They’re both 2005’s, and the last time either one needed an alignment was a decade ago.

If the tires are wearing normally, and it isn’t pulling to one side or the other, I would pass.
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Tubes
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Tubes »

midareff wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:50 am If nothing is shaking or bouncing around at highway speed it is unlikely you need to have your tires rebalanced.
Speaking of this, I occasionally see cars on the highway where I wonder how the occupants inside are not going crazy. I mean, the wheels are deflecting an inch or more, bouncing like crazy. Ya gotta feel that, no? I just shake my head and wonder how it is possible they can even drive the car.

OK, that was about balancing (although a wheel doing that can't be good for the suspension). Back to alignment talk. :happy
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adamthesmythe
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by adamthesmythe »

Tubes wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:58 am Speaking of this, I occasionally see cars on the highway where I wonder how the occupants inside are not going crazy. I mean, the wheels are deflecting an inch or more, bouncing like crazy. Ya gotta feel that, no? I just shake my head and wonder how it is possible they can even drive the car.
Bouncing happens when the shocks are bad, really bad.

OK back to alignment. The trouble with the proposed indicators for alignment (uneven wear, steering problems, severe pothole encounters) is that they are either unquantifiable (how bad is a bad pothole? when is the steering off?) or maybe too late (tire wear).

My present thinking is that I would notice it if the steering was far enough off. (Thank you, Jucy car rentals, for providing an example experience). And uneven tire wear reduces the tire life but not to zero. My tires are $150 each, and an alignment is around $150. So I'll take the odds without alignment.
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Tubes
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Tubes »

adamthesmythe wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:40 am
My present thinking is that I would notice it if the steering was far enough off. (Thank you, Jucy car rentals, for providing an example experience). And uneven tire wear reduces the tire life but not to zero. My tires are $150 each, and an alignment is around $150. So I'll take the odds without alignment.
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baconavocado
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by baconavocado »

I'd put this in the same category as a $50 bottle of gas tank additive. Thanks but no thanks.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by bi0hazard »

Couple of additional thoughts, and I'm no expert:

-Bad roads are all over the country, south, west, north, east.

-Need for alignment is independent of manufacturer. Yes, even Toyotas sometimes need alignment :wink:

-Mileage by itself is not always a great indicator for alignment need. You may need an alignment the day after alignment if unlucky (ask me how i know). Some cars are not perfectly alignment out of factory, ie my new 2010 Pilot

-Never have a dealer do alignment, they always want to do it, and prices are insane. :moneybag . Some intendent shops have deals for free alignment check (may need a coupon from discount tire for example)...if it's off , it's off. My discount tire has a coupon for a great alignment shop - $39. Even at full price, my local shops are nowhere near $150 mentioned. At most I paid $130 for a track car, which required special aligning and -3 camber :mrgreen:

- Uneven tire wear is an indicator of bad alignment, but subtle uneven wear is difficult to notice, until it's serious, IMO.

- Expensive tires make me want to have a good alignment. I pay at least $1100 for tires for my cars.
Disclaimer: I'm not very smart, and this is just my hypothesis.
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midareff
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by midareff »

Tubes wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:58 am
midareff wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:50 am If nothing is shaking or bouncing around at highway speed it is unlikely you need to have your tires rebalanced.
Speaking of this, I occasionally see cars on the highway where I wonder how the occupants inside are not going crazy. I mean, the wheels are deflecting an inch or more, bouncing like crazy. Ya gotta feel that, no? I just shake my head and wonder how it is possible they can even drive the car.

OK, that was about balancing (although a wheel doing that can't be good for the suspension). Back to alignment talk. :happy
I've looked into specialty alignment shops here as I have settings I prefer on toe, from experience. A custom spec at a specialty shop used by the track and autocross folks here runs under $100 if all they need to go into is toe. More for custom caster and camber. I'll probably change out the tires next month and get the alignment done right after.... then planning a driving trip to the mountains.
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midareff
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by midareff »

bi0hazard wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:54 pm Couple of additional thoughts, and I'm no expert:

-Bad roads are all over the country, south, west, north, east.

-Need for alignment is independent of manufacturer. Yes, even Toyotas sometimes need alignment :wink:

-Mileage by itself is not always a great indicator for alignment need. You may need an alignment the day after alignment if unlucky (ask me how i know). Some cars are not perfectly alignment out of factory, ie my new 2010 Pilot

-Never have a dealer do alignment, they always want to do it, and prices are insane. :moneybag . Some intendent shops have deals for free alignment check (may need a coupon from discount tire for example)...if it's off , it's off. My discount tire has a coupon for a great alignment shop - $39. Even at full price, my local shops are nowhere near $150 mentioned. At most I paid $130 for a track car, which required special aligning and -3 camber :mrgreen:

- Uneven tire wear is an indicator of bad alignment, but subtle uneven wear is difficult to notice, until it's serious, IMO.

- Expensive tires make me want to have a good alignment. I pay at least $1100 for tires for my cars.
Ditto on custom settings... -1.8 front camber, -2.5 rears .. front toe +.007", rear -.05" .... shaved Kuhmos lasted near 70 runs and 7K street miles.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Katietsu »

Some of the more mechanically inclined can correct me if I am wrong. In my experience, when I have has the alignment checked on my small sedans, they have frequently been much further off than my trail rated SUVs. So, I have had sedans that needed an alignment at less than 15,000 miles. I am not sure what qualifies as an “incident”. I consider teeth jarring pothole hits to be part of life in the spring and washouts in the summer.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Escapevelocity »

Tubes wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:55 pm 15000 is simply outrageous. Cars today are good for years, maybe lifetime, if not abused or in any incidents.

Between my wife and myself, our cars have only needed one alignment in the past 25 years. It was showing in the tire wear at 110000 miles. I got new tires at Discount Tire. As mentioned above, they don't do alignments. They suggested a nearby local independent shop. That shop did a great job at a fair price.

This dealer upsell stuff is out of control.
That's why they call it the "stealership"
Last edited by Escapevelocity on Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wander
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by wander »

Wheel alignment is needed when you replace tie rods (both inner and outter) or rack & pinion. Other cases are when tires are worn unevenly.
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ram
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by ram »

If somebody does not want to bother watching treadwear and does not want to save every cent is it reasonable to do an alignment every 40,000 to 50,000 miles (along with tire change)
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tibbitts
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by tibbitts »

I would worry that a vehicle not exhibiting uneven tire wear would be worse off after an alignment. Obviously someone is going to say not if it's done on properly calibrated equipment by an expert... but that's like saying it can be beneficial to have a "good" financial adviser. You can look at reviews but how many consumers are qualified to comment on the accuracy of their alignments?
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Tubes
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by Tubes »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:48 pm I would worry that a vehicle not exhibiting uneven tire wear would be worse off after an alignment. Obviously someone is going to say not if it's done on properly calibrated equipment by an expert... but that's like saying it can be beneficial to have a "good" financial adviser. You can look at reviews but how many consumers are qualified to comment on the accuracy of their alignments?
This is why I don't do them routinely, especially at a dealer where the techs may not give a damn.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by bi0hazard »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:48 pm I would worry that a vehicle not exhibiting uneven tire wear would be worse off after an alignment. Obviously someone is going to say not if it's done on properly calibrated equipment by an expert... but that's like saying it can be beneficial to have a "good" financial adviser. You can look at reviews but how many consumers are qualified to comment on the accuracy of their alignments?
Not completely sure what this comment means, but will try to address. Alignment is done with laser guidance (accurate to 0.04cm). You get a printout before and after service. Shop would have to flat out forge a paper document to fool you into accurate alignment. If the alignment is off after service you will know it.
Disclaimer: I'm not very smart, and this is just my hypothesis.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by redmaw »

Tell them to put it on the rack and measure the alignment and that if its out you expect it to be covered by warrantee. I think I read somewhere that during most alignments the tech doesn't touch the car...the measure, everything is in spec, that will be $100. Super easy upsell on an essentially new car.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by NerdicSkier »

I bought new tires and the old set had been wearing unevenly, so I needed an alignment. The upsell that I got was that I needed new control arms and ball joints. Of course this is days before dd and dd are taking the vehicle on a long road trip. It's an advanced diy project since you have to lift the engine a tiny bit to get the control arms off (thanks Toyota!) and not something I could do right away. I looked at the equipment and wrenched on it a bit, and there was little tear in one of the control arm bushings, but there are probably millions on the road way worse, so I took it to another shop for a "second opinion". $60 later I had a new alignment and no talk of new balljoint or control arms.
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Re: Wheel alignment upsell

Post by tibbitts »

bi0hazard wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:31 pm
tibbitts wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:48 pm I would worry that a vehicle not exhibiting uneven tire wear would be worse off after an alignment. Obviously someone is going to say not if it's done on properly calibrated equipment by an expert... but that's like saying it can be beneficial to have a "good" financial adviser. You can look at reviews but how many consumers are qualified to comment on the accuracy of their alignments?
Not completely sure what this comment means, but will try to address. Alignment is done with laser guidance (accurate to 0.04cm). You get a printout before and after service. Shop would have to flat out forge a paper document to fool you into accurate alignment. If the alignment is off after service you will know it.
The second-to-last alignment I had done ended up with the steering wheel not centered - not even close - so that's where my comment is coming from. The fact is I can notice steering wheel centering, but can't necessarily notice caster, camber, etc. unless it's way off, perhaps.

I haven't tried it but it would be interesting to go to a half dozen shops and see the results of their alignments to check if they really were all within .04cm of each other.
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