Do I really need a new A/C unit??

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fmhealth
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Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by fmhealth »

Hello fellow BHs. I'm back needing some actionable thoughts on the above topic. First a brief background on my home.

Ranch, appox. 20 years old. Original AC, 1950 sq ft. Only previous repairs have been a capaciter(sp) and an air exchange motor. Change the filters every six weeks and that's about it.

Started to only blow warm air two days ago. I tuned off the unit for an hour & it started up as usual, no problem cooling our home. Still running fine today. With temps running in the range of 118, it's been a tough job to get a repairman out here. In any event had a fellow at my house yesterday. Here's his opinion.
Replace the entire ac unit because it'll die very soon. He never came in to examine my ac unit in my attic only the fan in the yard. He was semi-high pressure and presented me with a price of $12,000 for a 5-ton unit. No other details.

About a zero chance of using him but what questions should I be asking to the next man up?

There's probably more to the story but I'll stop here. I have another ac firm coming out next week to either fix my current unit &/or give me an estimate for a new one. Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
Normchad
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Normchad »

When you call an AC repair man, they usually send a salesman, who knows a little about AC. No matter what your problem is, the answer they always give is “you need a new unit “, or “we could fix it for $4K, no telling how long it will last. A new unit is $6K”.

Then again, your unit is pretty old….. but who knows, it might last another 5 or 10 years…..

118 is very hot. I would expect your AC to struggle at those temps.
It’s likely you are a bit low on refrigerant.
Escapevelocity
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Escapevelocity »

Normchad wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:44 pm When you call an AC repair man, they usually send a salesman, who knows a little about AC. No matter what your problem is, the answer they always give is “you need a new unit “, or “we could fix it for $4K, no telling how long it will last. A new unit is $6K”.

Then again, your unit is pretty old….. but who knows, it might last another 5 or 10 years…..

118 is very hot. I would expect your AC to struggle at those temps.
It’s likely you are a bit low on refrigerant.
Living in that climate, you gotta err on the safe side with your AC. That’s a mission critical piece of equipment and it’s gotta be rock solid IMO.
rebellovw
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by rebellovw »

I live in a hot area and use one company for all my AC stuff - I've had them come out in times of complete outage (cap replacement and second time - mice eat through a power chord) and times of preventative maintenance. They have never pushed a new AC unit on me - but again my house was built in 2007. I'd trust their opinion for sure. I can usually catch BS and sounds like you can too.

I'd get lots of opinions/inspections - hopefully someone will talk sense into why a replacement would be better - hopefully it will run cheaper and pay for itself - I'm just guessing.
neilpilot
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by neilpilot »

fmhealth wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:39 pm
Started to only blow warm air two days ago. I tuned off the unit for an hour & it started up as usual, no problem cooling our home. Still running fine today.
Based on your unit's ago, replacement just might be in order. However, the evaporator coil (the one in your home above the furnace) will tend to iced over due to a low freon charge, resulting in warm air output. The one hour shutdown was sufficient to melt the ice and return to cooling.
livesoft
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by livesoft »

neilpilot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:00 pm Based on your unit's ago, replacement just might be in order. However, the evaporator coil (the one in your home above the furnace) will tend to iced over due to a low freon charge, resulting in warm air output. The one hour shutdown was sufficient to melt the ice and return to cooling.
One can go look and see if there is ice there when the warm air output is happening.

What's going on with the condensate drain?
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Abe
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Abe »

When you said it started to blow warm air and after turning the unit off for an hour it started up as usual cooling your home. That sounds like it may have iced up. It could be a little low on freon. At the very least, I would wash out the outside condensing unit with a garden hose and change the filter inside. Even though the unit is old, I don't think I would replace it just yet.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Barsoom
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Barsoom »

In 2014, I had the outdoor fan unit go bad on an A/C system for a 1,300 sq. ft. condo unit that was built in the mid-1980s. I called my warranty company to check it out and they found a leak that released all the coolant. The problem was that the unit was so old that they didn't make spare parts for it anymore and I had to buy a new compressor unit. Fortunately, my warranty insurance paid for a good part of it. My share was about $2,500. That could have run me $5,000.

In my new (to me) home in 2020, the A/C evaporator in the attic (ca. 2010) had a leak and had to be replaced. In that case, the entire evaporator had to be taken out and a new one installed. Fortunately, I had A/C insurance on my electricity contract (I expected an eventual A/C failure in Houston), and my share was about $2,500. That could have run me $10,000 in the worst case.

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illumination
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by illumination »

Its a sleazy industry that more about sales than it is about repairs. It's hard to find someone genuinely interested in fixing a unit.

It really could be something as simple as changing batteries in your thermostat. That's actually where I would start, if everything is running fine now, it's probably something simple.

All that being said, yes at 20 years old, it would not be inappropriate to get a new unit. But not from this outfit.
FWIW, not too much before Covid, I had a 5 ton Trane replaced, the complete job out the door was like $6,800.
runner3081
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by runner3081 »

Wow, insane demand pricing. We had our 21 year old unit done in the winter - 2 years ago. We replaced a perfectly fine working unit in the Phoenix area to avoid it going down during the summer.

5-Ton unit, outdoor and attic unit, it was $5.7K out the door.

Contractor said it would have been much higher in the summer, for a number of reasons, including demand and need for more labor as the guys can only be in the attic so long.

I was shocked at how much the monthly cooling cost dropped going from an old unit to something much newer!
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Kagord
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Kagord »

Do you hear the compressor running when warm air is coming out (or is the cold freon line not cold). If so, this sounds like compressor start capacitor is going bad to me (I.E. if the compressor is intermittently not starting). You mention (SP) for the capacitor replaced, which one was replaced, there's 4 big ones (Fan, Compressor Start, Compressor Run, and the Blower Cap inside, frequently the fan and compressor run are combined in one assembly). Regardless, I'd test the caps.

I'm always of the opinion to throw some money at things to save replacing, but I guess 118 is pretty motivating, I might swap it in that case.
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Cosmo
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Cosmo »

fmhealth wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:39 pm Hello fellow BHs. I'm back needing some actionable thoughts on the above topic. First a brief background on my home.

Ranch, appox. 20 years old. Original AC, 1950 sq ft.
Yes. This is well past the life expectancy of an AC unit. Congratulations; consider yourself lucky.

Cosmo
Big Dog
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Big Dog »

Personally, I'd try to get ~5 quotes -- you can learn more from each one. And ask for a Manual J.

The downside is time, and how long you can tolerate triple digits before replacement. In the meantime, what about a cheap window unit (from a big box store) for the bedroom at night? Or, spend a few hundred on a repair and plan to obtain replacement quotes in the fall when the contractors aren't so busy.
RetiredAL
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by RetiredAL »

fmhealth wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:39 pm
Started to only blow warm air two days ago. I tuned off the unit for an hour & it started up as usual, no problem cooling our home.
When it ran warm, was the inside air flow about normal? If yes, then focus on the outside compressor or fan not starting.

If the inside air flow was greatly reduced, then it may be ice or something is slowing down the inside blower. Ice vs reduced air flow is a cascading effect. It's the quantity of inside air movement that keeps the inside coils ice free. As ice forms, it reduces air flow which allows more ice to form. Low Freon does lead to towards ice, but so does reduced air flow from very dirty filters or someone shutting off too many room dampers hence the total air flow is low.

Unfortunately, you selected a service company that is likely paying a big bonus to their techs that get big jobs. A good tech would at least test things and try to have it running while you decide, and for sure to get you past the current heat wave. If any of your neighbors have had repairs done of recent, that who you want to get out to help you. The more you can tell him, like the outside compressor was not running, helps him to focus where to start testing. If it did ice and is low on Freon, just filling it is a stop-gap, unless the leak source can positively be identified and fixed. Often it's somewhere on the inside coils and not repairable.

Unless your unit was a top end performer in it day, the newer units will likely use a lot less energy for the same cooling. That is also part of why the quick sale tech said replace it. He knows you will be happy with the lower cost to operate that you will likely get from new unit. The timing just sucks and that is part of the high quoted cost.

Good luck and try to keep your cool.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Lee_WSP »

Sounds like you’re in Phoenix. While less extreme climates would simply be an annoyance if the AC went down, in our climate, we may die, and it’s certainly hard to even sleep at night (even at only 105 high). Replace it if it cannot be fixed inexpensively.
Dontridetheindexdown
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Dontridetheindexdown »

If the unit is cooling now, with 118 outside temp, you can most likely run it for a long time in the future.

If the refrigerant was low, it would not be cooling right now.

If warm air was circulating, most likely the outside unit had an intermittent failure.

There is a single contactor, that turns on the compressor and the condenser fan - it may have a weak coil, or worn contacts, or a loose connector.

There is at least one capacitor to start the compressor, and one to start the condenser fan (sometimes it is a dual capacitor) - it may be getting weak.

If this is a combination heat pump/air conditioner, there is a reversing valve.

The reversing valve is operated magnetically, by a solenoid coil.

The reversing valve may have hung up, or the solenoid coil may have become loose on its mounting (this is a common problem).

No matter what, if the unit is cooling right now, there is no reason to change it out.

I would check and tighten all electrical connections, inside and outside the house, and especially the row of screw connections at both ends of the low voltage control cable.

Also check the transformer that provides low voltage to the control circuits.

Most important, put a thermometer in one of your duct outlets, and read the temperature.

If you are receiving cold air right now, at less than the set point of your thermostat, there is no need to change the air conditioner.

At 118 outside, it might only be slightly lower than set point, at lower outside temperature, the cold air will be much lower than set point.

Contrary to popular myth, you will never save enough energy to pay back the cost of a new unit.
tibbitts
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by tibbitts »

Obviously the problem is that every estimate to repair your unit will cost $80-$100 or so even without any work being done, while estimates for new units are free. I would get multiple estimates for new units because every time I get an estimate for anything, I learn something new. My guess is everybody will have the same software and come up with the same size for a new unit, to which I'd probably add some unless there's some mitigating factor. For me upsizing may be costly due to possibly have to relocate my outside unit and pad. These new air conditioners (and tank-type water heaters, although unrelated) are in almost every case fatter than their predecessors. After 20 years I wouldn't think twice about buying a new unit, although older units seemed to last longer than newer ones. When you upsize you also need more airflow so make sure that's provided for in the estimates.
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by RetiredAL »

Lee_WSP wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:41 pm Sounds like you’re in Phoenix. While less extreme climates would simply be an annoyance if the AC went down, in our climate, we may die, and it’s certainly hard to even sleep at night (even at only 105 high). Replace it if it cannot be fixed inexpensively.
Lee,

My Daughter live in central Montana in a 5000' valley. Their problem is the opposite of what you see in Phoenix. When it's -20F outside, no heat is a real issue. Everyone has two or more independent heating systems. A large wood stove could be the 2nd, but 2 forced-air/hot-water heaters are common. Having a backup generator to power the heater is common.
tim1999
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by tim1999 »

I'm guessing OP is in the Phoenix area, or maybe Palm Springs. It is rare for a central AC unit to make it to 20 years old in these climates. I would plan on replacing it soon while it is working, it is on borrowed time. They have a habit of dying on a peak day for cooling demand, like when it is 118. Personally I'd proactively replace it rather than wait until it dies when it is 118 and be stuck in a house with no A/C (or having to pay for a hotel room) while waiting for a replacement, where the contractor knows they have you backed into a corner. I would not put any more money into a 20 year old unit.

You could consider limping it along until winter when HVAC companies have less going on and prices may, or may not, be more competitive.
Trader Joe
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Trader Joe »

fmhealth wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:39 pm Hello fellow BHs. I'm back needing some actionable thoughts on the above topic. First a brief background on my home.

Ranch, appox. 20 years old. Original AC, 1950 sq ft. Only previous repairs have been a capaciter(sp) and an air exchange motor. Change the filters every six weeks and that's about it.

Started to only blow warm air two days ago. I tuned off the unit for an hour & it started up as usual, no problem cooling our home. Still running fine today. With temps running in the range of 118, it's been a tough job to get a repairman out here. In any event had a fellow at my house yesterday. Here's his opinion.
Replace the entire ac unit because it'll die very soon. He never came in to examine my ac unit in my attic only the fan in the yard. He was semi-high pressure and presented me with a price of $12,000 for a 5-ton unit. No other details.

About a zero chance of using him but what questions should I be asking to the next man up?

There's probably more to the story but I'll stop here. I have another ac firm coming out next week to either fix my current unit &/or give me an estimate for a new one. Thanks so much.

Be Well,
fmhealth
No, you do not need a new A/C unit. You only need maintenance.
jackbeagle
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by jackbeagle »

Do you have a Nest thermostat?

I had an issue with mine losing voltage to the O wire. What this would do with my heat pump, is, without any warning or on-screen indication, begin heating rather than cooling. Came home one day and it was 84 degrees inside and climbing. Thermostat still displayed it was "cooling".

This was a known issue online with several people having the same issue. Nest wouldn't fess up to it. Could have been hardware, not software. Our solution was to change models entirely, not just chance it with a like-model replacement.

We are still using the same A/C system, save for the thermostat change for 2 years now. Perfect example of a thermostat issue masked as a system issue.
wootwoot
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by wootwoot »

Repair it till it dies. We are in a similar climate and have 2 3 ton AC units that are original to the house (30 years old). We thought about replacing them when we moved in 4 years ago but are glad that we didn't. They continue to work well and have only required 1 repair costing ~$200. If they have gone this long keep repairing them. Newer AC units just don't hold up.
Last edited by wootwoot on Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jackbeagle
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by jackbeagle »

illumination wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:22 pm Its a sleazy industry that more about sales than it is about repairs. It's hard to find someone genuinely interested in fixing a unit.

It really could be something as simple as changing batteries in your thermostat. That's actually where I would start, if everything is running fine now, it's probably something simple.

All that being said, yes at 20 years old, it would not be inappropriate to get a new unit. But not from this outfit.
FWIW, not too much before Covid, I had a 5 ton Trane replaced, the complete job out the door was like $6,800.
Glad it's not me going crazy. I've had more no-call/no-shows from HVAC service personnel than any other trade.
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TexasPE
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by TexasPE »

Dontridetheindexdown wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:02 pm If the unit is cooling now, with 118 outside temp, you can most likely run it for a long time in the future....
No matter what, if the unit is cooling right now, there is no reason to change it out....
... put a thermometer in one of your duct outlets, and read the temperature....
If you are receiving cold air right now, at less than the set point of your thermostat, there is no need to change the air conditioner....
Contrary to popular myth, you will never save enough energy to pay back the cost of a new unit.
+1. A HVAC system is an assembly of separate major components, which can be made by different companies, that can be repaired or replaced independently. I recommend that you find a small repair shop that focuses on service, not sales, and have them troubleshoot your problem.
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Lee_WSP
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Lee_WSP »

If you turned it off for an hour and it runs fine now, you probably had a freeze over. You may just want to ask the unit to cool a little less for now. Get the Freon levels checked.
Lone_Ranger
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Lone_Ranger »

Ex-HVAC repair technician here. Sadly, as others have pointed out, the industry is slimy and often even the repair techs are salesmen disguised as technicians.

The advice I give those with older units is to repair it as long as you reasonably can. There aren’t that many parts to a system that are expensive to replace. The vast majority of the time, the fix is simple, even with old units like yours. Plus, new units, although slightly more efficient, are not built with the same quality as your 20 yr old unit.


Good luck, stay cool.
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Kagord
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Kagord »

Lone_Ranger wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:58 pm Ex-HVAC repair technician here. Sadly, as others have pointed out, the industry is slimy and often even the repair techs are salesmen disguised as technicians.
Agree, I remember technicians, years ago, came out and checked a bunch of things and knew how the systems operated. You would get someone with 15-20 years experience with the manufacturer and they knew the ins and outs and quirks of your particular setup, sometimes training an apprentice, sharing the knowledge.

The last few companies I've used, the techs seem to fumble around and look confused, but they sure know how to quote a new system quickly, oh it's at the arbitrary 12 years old end of life, it needs to be replaced, you should probably do the furnace as well because it's cheaper to install both at once.

I wonder how well a AC repair business would do that advertises we only fix, and do not sell new systems, try us first.

I have a 1983 R12 system still working in one of my rentals, I don't think I've spend more than $2,000 over those years keeping it going, granted things were very simple back then.
acegolfer
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by acegolfer »

Depends. If you can do regular DIY maintenance, then A/C can easily last more than 20 years even in the south. In fact, 20yo units are more rugged than today's models because there are less components to fail.

But from OP, I don't think you did anything other than changing filters. That's certainly better than nothing but not enough for an older unit. Perhaps, it's time to replace in your case.
tibbitts
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by tibbitts »

Kagord wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:40 am The last few companies I've used, the techs seem to fumble around and look confused, but they sure know how to quote a new system quickly, oh it's at the arbitrary 12 years old end of life, it needs to be replaced, you should probably do the furnace as well because it's cheaper to install both at once.
I assume you don't mean the techs are quoting new prices. My experience is that they don't deal with new units except for installing them and don't know how much they cost to purchase, and aren't particularly interested in you taking that approach. They just try to figure out the problem, tell you how much it will cost to fix, and do the repair if you authorize it.
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by talzara »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:31 am I assume you don't mean the techs are quoting new prices.
That is exactly what many techs are doing now.

Many HVAC contractors pay their technicians a commission if they can sell a new system. A good salesman can make a lot more money selling new systems than fixing old ones. Here is an article in an HVAC industry trade journal about it:
I went on a service call behind Company B once. ... Their tech told them their unit had a cracked drain pan, bad blower relay, and bad heat sequencer. He quoted them $1,700 for the repairs. Then he told them their unit was seven years old and out of warranty, so they really needed a new system for $7,500. When I arrived, I found the blower working and the drain pan full to overflowing. I had them turn emergency heat on, and the heat relay worked just fine. All I found was a clogged drain line. My repair cost was the same as Company B’s faulty diagnostic.

Unfortunately, both of their neighbors fell for Company B’s line and replaced their systems. Company B installed all of the systems in that neighborhood and now replaces many of those systems after just six or seven years.

https://www.contractingbusiness.com/awa ... htin-words
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fmhealth
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by fmhealth »

OP here. Thanks go out to everyone who was kind enough to offer-up some real world insights. You folks are the best! As of today the system is purring along like a new born kitten. Our home is now like a cool air sanctuary. Since I have two appt's previously scheduled with local shops, I'll see how they analyze this situation.

As with most problems, I tend to take an "Occam's Razor" approach. The simplest solution is usually the best. Works in the majority of circumstances. Thanks again.

"Warmest" Regards,
fmhealth
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StevieG72
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by StevieG72 »

wootwoot wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:06 pm Repair it till it dies. We are in a similar climate and have 2 3 ton AC units that are original to the house (30 years old). We thought about replacing them when we moved in 4 years ago but are glad that we didn't. They continue to work well and have only required 1 repair costing ~$200. If they have gone this long keep repairing them. Newer AC units just don't hold up.
This, I just recently replaced a 20 year old ac paired with a 35 year old air handler. I put bandaids on it for years, normally just needed a freon charge yearly, slow leak. In addition, 1/2 of the heat strips were not working so heating ability was weak. So in hindsight I probably hung on a bit too long, I am glad to have the replacement complete and look forward to some worry free service and much better heating ability in the winter. Your situation sounds nowhere near the tragic condition of my unit, there could be some life left in your system. Get the opinion of a few reputable service providers. Also an R22 system can be converted to a newer refrigerant, that may be something to consider as well. Just about everyone I talked to claimed R22 would be scarce and prices would increase exponentially, I found availability and price to be stable in my area.

If you decide to replace your unit remember that the quality of the install is as important as the quality of the equipment. Take your time to find a reputable company with plenty of experience.
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.
Trader Joe
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Re: Do I really need a new A/C unit??

Post by Trader Joe »

fmhealth wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:53 pm OP here. Thanks go out to everyone who was kind enough to offer-up some real world insights. You folks are the best! As of today the system is purring along like a new born kitten. Our home is now like a cool air sanctuary. Since I have two appt's previously scheduled with local shops, I'll see how they analyze this situation.

As with most problems, I tend to take an "Occam's Razor" approach. The simplest solution is usually the best. Works in the majority of circumstances. Thanks again.

"Warmest" Regards,
fmhealth
Great news! Thank you for the update.
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