Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

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CoastLawyer2030
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Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

Our house was built in 1974 and still has their original Pella (wood) windows. The reason I had a window guy come look to see if he could repair them were as follows:

1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.

In any event, the plan was to get these repaired, but the rep said it would probably cost $5-6k to do repairs when getting new windows for the entire house would be $12-13k. Another window guy came out and said almost the exact same thing.

I am always hesitant about stuff like this because I live in a very nice part of town, and for other stuff that I know more about, the estimates have been completely comical.

So, do I actually need new windows? And if so, are the energy savings actually noticeable, or is that just marketing hogwash?
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by jebmke »

Probably yes. We replaced a lot of '80s vintage windows and exterior sliders and the impact on inside comfort was quite noticeable.
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SmileyFace
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by SmileyFace »

Windows have improved dramatically since 1974 and if they are fogging, etc - getting new ones are probably best. I got better pricing through independent contractors who do window replacements (along with other stuff) versus the window companies themselves or companies that focus on replacement windows (e.g. I didn't use a "window guy").
HomeStretch
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by HomeStretch »

Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

jebmke wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:45 pm Probably yes. We replaced a lot of '80s vintage windows and exterior sliders and the impact on inside comfort was quite noticeable.
SmileyFace wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:46 pm Windows have improved dramatically since 1974 and if they are fogging, etc - getting new ones are probably best. I got better pricing through independent contractors who do window replacements (along with other stuff) versus the window companies themselves or companies that focus on replacement windows (e.g. I didn't use a "window guy").
HomeStretch wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
Okay. I brought this up with two co-workers in the break room today, and both recommended Window World. They said you can't beat the price and customer service, and that Pella and Anderson just aren't worth it because, as SmileyFace said, all windows have dramatically improved since 1974.

Any thoughts on Window World?
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goingup
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by goingup »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm 1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.
Anyone of these reasons would prompt me to get new windows. Be sure to use a professional installer. Replacement windows on old houses require some skill. Not handyman work, IMO.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by TT »

delete
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by 123 »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 pm ...Any thoughts on Window World?
Window World https://www.windowworld.com/ locations are sparse in some parts of the country. Their website offers franchising opportunities so the experience with them could be somewhat varied.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by 260chrisb »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm Our house was built in 1974 and still has their original Pella (wood) windows. The reason I had a window guy come look to see if he could repair them were as follows:

1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.

In any event, the plan was to get these repaired, but the rep said it would probably cost $5-6k to do repairs when getting new windows for the entire house would be $12-13k. Another window guy came out and said almost the exact same thing.

I am always hesitant about stuff like this because I live in a very nice part of town, and for other stuff that I know more about, the estimates have been completely comical.

So, do I actually need new windows? And if so, are the energy savings actually noticeable, or is that just marketing hogwash?
I'm in the midst of replacing 8 Pella windows in my house that was built in 20001. Some are very large. These windows had a design flaw that created a class action lawsuit. Instead of trying repairs I've decided to go with exact Pella replacements (that of course do not have the design flaw) for perfect placement. If I were you I wouldn't spend any money on repairs and every dollar on replacements on a house that age. The great unknown is; how well will they lend themselves to repair and for how long? Sure 10-12K is a lot of money but money well spent for future value that you're going to lose if you sell the house explaining why some of them were fixed, some were not, some need fixed, some don't. I'd bite the bullet and do it all at once with replacements. I was told today that Pella is going to take a price increase after 7-15 of 8%. I literally got this from a supplier today after I requested an updated quote from 2 years ago. Now's the time. I'm going to be out 5-6K and plan to place an order the second week of July and have them installed after labor Day! Pella needs 6-8 weeks from order to delivery. Good luck.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by rich126 »

I've always thought people waste a lot of money on windows because sales people convince them of money savings. I had an energy audit done at an older home (30-35 years old) and figured he would say the windows were a big issue but he didn't. And when I asked, he said I would need at least 30 yrs of savings to recover any energy savings.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

This made me smile:
3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.
I think only old fashion double hung windows (sash windows?) have a "goofy part on a rope" - ie a weight inside the frame of the window with a pulley wheel and a rope that's attached to the moveable window - to help the windows go up and down (and stay up). Ropes break (and windows come crashing down or windows become kid and pet death traps if they are held up with a bit of wood or a book or something when the ropes are broken). Chains are more "permanent". I did a "window project" on my fixer upper house - pulled out all the double hung windows - replaced broken/cracked glass, re glazed and repainted all of them. Then all the the windows went back in using chains - all the windows had the ropes (most of which were broken or so brittle they snapped when taking out the windows). I use to have removeable storm windows and summer screens - but I had them replaced with new storms/screens combined. I paid quite a bit for this - but less than full replacement windows. I didn't want to do full replacement windows. In my area It's generally better to NOT replace 70 year old (or older) windows if the window over all is in good shape (the frame/sill not rotted) and to repair the double hung windows (it's a big DIY that requires some skill) and find a solution to replace the old storms and screens. I can see why people just say the heck with it - and have the whole window replaced.

I'm guessing by 1974 windows with "chains (or ropes) and weights" were a thing of the past.

There's a bit of a joke in my area (densely populated, much of the housing stock built between 1880's and 1970's): they are called "replacement windows" because eventually you have to "replace them" when dealing with an old house that had it's original windows replaced (in the 70's or 80's) - they need replacing again 40 or 50 years later.

But, back to original windows installed in the 70's.... I'm guessing these would be a lot like the windows that were the "replacements" in the 70's and 80's that I'm familiar with... so yes, it's highly likely they need replacing. :)
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Supergrover
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Supergrover »

I was very happy going with a independent window place. try to look for places that sell more than one type of window. This way you have choices.
This helped me narrow down my goal...as inexpensive as possible, or as much quality as my budget would allow, etc.
figure out what your goal is.

I don’t know anything about window world but I have heard bad things about RBA and their outrageous prices.
Sic Vis Pacem
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Sic Vis Pacem »

You need new windows.

You may or may not be being sold.
bob991
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by bob991 »

I just went through replacing original windows in a house built in 71. Yeah it sounds like you need new windows.

For someone who is an obsessive researcher it was exhausting. There are so many window replacement options its crazy, and its very difficult to compare them. There are lots of biased resources out there.

I found these sites to be of some use:
http://www.replacementwindowsreviews.co ... t-windows/
https://www.replacement-windows.com/win ... 480f4657be

Sales people are going to all be using dodgy tactics:
https://thewindowdog.com/window-sales-tactics/

I finally went with a decent middle-of-the-road vinyl windows manufactured locally by a company that was reputable and has been around for a long time.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

rich126 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:56 pm I had an energy audit done at an older home (30-35 years old) and figured he would say the windows were a big issue but he didn't. And when I asked, he said I would need at least 30 yrs of savings to recover any energy savings.
Did you ask him how much additional comfort you’d have for those 30 years? We are relatively immune to heating/cooling costs (geothermal) but enjoy the comfort of our new windows. Drafts are no joy.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by quantAndHold »

I’m surprised that 1974 windows have goofy rope things. I thought ropes sash cords were long gone by then.

Yes, you need new windows.

Once you have them done, you should consider painting the exterior more often. That’s probably what the frame rot is about. Foggy windows mean the seal between the two panes is broken. Replacement is pretty much the only option. The house settling and destroying the sash cords doesn’t make much sense, but sash cords do break. Of the three problems you have, this is the one that’s easiest to repair if you’re inclined. Our ten year old double hung windows don’t have sash cords. I don’t think any of them do anymore.

If you’re short on cash, or just can’t get the materials now because of the shortages in everything, you could probably find a handyman who can fix the rot and sash cords, and kick the can down the road for awhile. But like everything else, window technology has improved a lot since 1974, and you would probably enjoy having new windows.

Whether you’re being played or not…I cannot answer that.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Feb29 »

Remember: Quality is Economy. You get what you pay for.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by BIGal »

You may need new windows from what you are describing. If I were you I would call the Pella Corporate office and speak to someone in customer service. I am not sure where the fellow was that you said was a Pella representative, however, I too seriously doubt that you have counter weights. My guess is you have casement windows that do need attention. Please do a bit more investigating before you buy new windows because they are indeed a significant investment.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by donall »

If you can’t see out of your windows or can’t open them then you need new windows.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by RickBoglehead »

Pella has a limited lifetime warranty. Don't spend a dime until you pursue that.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by galawdawg »

TT wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:35 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
I built my house with the best windows Pella made at the time and they are still performing at a excellent level of operation and preventing any air infiltration. No leaks, no clouding , no punky wood and they are 35 years installed in New England weather.
So OP has Pella windows that are forty-two years old and failing with rot, leaking seals and likely swelling of wood and TT has Pella windows only seven years newer but that sound like they are trouble-free.

Could the difference be related to improper or inadequate maintenance of OP's windows by the home's previous owners? What else could cause such a significant difference in performance of the same manufacturer's windows that were installed only seven years apart?

I agree that new windows are in order. Whether the issues you have would be covered by any warranty would depend on the warranty terms...
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by quantAndHold »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 pm
TT wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:35 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
I built my house with the best windows Pella made at the time and they are still performing at a excellent level of operation and preventing any air infiltration. No leaks, no clouding , no punky wood and they are 35 years installed in New England weather.
So OP has Pella windows that are forty-two years old and failing with rot, leaking seals and likely swelling of wood and TT has Pella windows only seven years newer but that sound like they are trouble-free.

Could the difference be related to improper or inadequate maintenance of OP's windows by the home's previous owners? What else could cause such a significant difference in performance of the same manufacturer's windows that were installed only seven years apart?

I agree that new windows are in order. Whether the issues you have would be covered by any warranty would depend on the warranty terms...
Most window manufacturers only provide warranties for the original owner. I don’t know about Pella. It would definitely be worth calling them, though. We had a foggy window that a previous owner had installed. We called the manufacturer, read some codes off the window, discovered it was just within the 25 year warranty period, sent them a picture and measurements, and they sent us a new sash.

I would guess that even if they were both Pella, the windows in OP’s house are a lower grade of window than TT’s windows. Wood rot is maintenance issue. Wholesale sash cord and double pane seal failure sound more like manufacturing or install issues.
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like2read
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by like2read »

OP wrote:
Any thoughts on Window World?




1974 windows? Replace, for sure.

Our house was built in 1968. Bought our house and moved in in 2008. Did a bunch of updates and upgrades, baths, kitchen, etc, then did the windows. Should have done the windows sooner. Huge improvement. Less drafty in winter, easier to control the internal temperature, quieter and of course lower heating/cooling costs.

With regards to Window World - I stopped by our local store for an estimate. They eventually provided an estimate of $700-800 per "opening" (window to be replaced). This was about 8 years ago. We eventually invited 4 or 5 other top rated installers, found in Checkbook magazine, to come in to do estimates. Price range was $400 - $600 per opening. We got what I would describe as very good to excellent quality replacement windows and installation for about $500 per window. (HCOL area).

As far as Pella - IMO way overpriced. Window World - same, but less. I subscribe to the theory that you are better off hiring the contractor with less overhead - less advertising costs, less showroom costs, less truck fleet costs, less employer turnover costs, less bloated employment costs. My ideal contractor is a single highly skilled individual with a good reputation.

There are MANY good quality window manufacturers at this point. I would not get too caught up in marketing or old perceptions about the superiority of one or two vendors.

That was our experience. If you are going to consider Window World, I would encourage you to get a few other estimates as well.

See related link;
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=334209&p=5695096&h ... w#p5695096

l2r
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by SmileyFace »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 pm
jebmke wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:45 pm Probably yes. We replaced a lot of '80s vintage windows and exterior sliders and the impact on inside comfort was quite noticeable.
SmileyFace wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:46 pm Windows have improved dramatically since 1974 and if they are fogging, etc - getting new ones are probably best. I got better pricing through independent contractors who do window replacements (along with other stuff) versus the window companies themselves or companies that focus on replacement windows (e.g. I didn't use a "window guy").
HomeStretch wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
Okay. I brought this up with two co-workers in the break room today, and both recommended Window World. They said you can't beat the price and customer service, and that Pella and Anderson just aren't worth it because, as SmileyFace said, all windows have dramatically improved since 1974.

Any thoughts on Window World?
To be clear, I never said Pella and Anderson weren't worth it (perhaps they are). I said that an independent contractor may quote you a better price than the replacement window companies themselves (whether your contractor uses/orders Anderson, Pella, Harvey or something else).
I am not familiar with Window World.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by tigermilk »

We will be getting windows later this year. I found some good information at https://www.vinyl-replacement-windows.com/forum/ and https://www.replacement-windows.com/ for brands to pursue. There are hundreds, if not a couple thousand window manufacturers. Some great, some good, and some terrible. Likewise, great installers or bad ones. We will be going with a local outfit that sells highly rated Sunrise windows. We are on the Gulf Coast, which complicates things, but found a good installer. Found another outfit that does some great product videos on YouTube. Bummer that their place is just 20 miles away but they don't service our county due to windstorm issues. We are just inside the zone with the lowest windstorm requirements.
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CoastLawyer2030
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

SmileyFace wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:04 pm
CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 pm
jebmke wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:45 pm Probably yes. We replaced a lot of '80s vintage windows and exterior sliders and the impact on inside comfort was quite noticeable.
SmileyFace wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:46 pm Windows have improved dramatically since 1974 and if they are fogging, etc - getting new ones are probably best. I got better pricing through independent contractors who do window replacements (along with other stuff) versus the window companies themselves or companies that focus on replacement windows (e.g. I didn't use a "window guy").
HomeStretch wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
Okay. I brought this up with two co-workers in the break room today, and both recommended Window World. They said you can't beat the price and customer service, and that Pella and Anderson just aren't worth it because, as SmileyFace said, all windows have dramatically improved since 1974.

Any thoughts on Window World?
To be clear, I never said Pella and Anderson weren't worth it (perhaps they are). I said that an independent contractor may quote you a better price than the replacement window companies themselves (whether your contractor uses/orders Anderson, Pella, Harvey or something else).
I am not familiar with Window World.
Perhaps my syntax wasn't the best, but I was getting at your point that windows have improved, not that Pella and Anderson weren't worth it.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:25 pm
TT wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:35 pm
HomeStretch wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:51 pm Your windows have frame rot, leaking seals and issues with opening (which is a serious issue if any egress windows are impacted). Definitely time for new windows through a quality installer.
I built my house with the best windows Pella made at the time and they are still performing at a excellent level of operation and preventing any air infiltration. No leaks, no clouding , no punky wood and they are 35 years installed in New England weather.
So OP has Pella windows that are forty-two years old and failing with rot, leaking seals and likely swelling of wood and TT has Pella windows only seven years newer but that sound like they are trouble-free.

Could the difference be related to improper or inadequate maintenance of OP's windows by the home's previous owners? What else could cause such a significant difference in performance of the same manufacturer's windows that were installed only seven years apart?

I agree that new windows are in order. Whether the issues you have would be covered by any warranty would depend on the warranty terms...
I think part of it is that the back of my house faces directly South. If you are standing out there with a compass, it is absolutely dead south. In the summer, the back of the house gets about sixteen hours of light.

Moreover, there isn't much roof protection back there. The back of the house is flat with not much overhang, so all the weather just goes right against them.

All of those definitely need replaced.

The ones in the front aren't nearly as bad. The wood is rotting a bit but nothing awful. They don't fog up nearly as much, but a lot of them don't open. Just off the top of my head, three of the six windows facing the front don't open.

I'm hesitant to drop so much money on windows -- we could theoretically leave them and be fine, but it just seems time to do it I guess.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Coburn »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:26 am
I'm hesitant to drop so much money on windows -- we could theoretically leave them and be fine, but it just seems time to do it I guess.
Sounds like you do need to replace a good many. You will never get your money back on them so spend what you will.

I dropped a bundle on mine...the installers didn't do a very good job of sealing around them.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Kagord »

Just my 2 cents, wood windows need to be maintained. This means inspecting all of them annually and:

* Replacing failed/cracked seals (bubble seals)
* Looking for soft spots in wood, and repairing (Pella/Marvin...etc usually allow ordering of custom wood moldings, sills, mullions, brick moulding..etc)
* Inspecting hardware, operators
* Painting every 3-4 years
* Replacing glass on double/triple panes, if the gas has failed

I repair window rot before it becomes a problem, this usually involves taking the sash off for a few weeks and fixing on a bench, same on the sill and frame (but in place).
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by protagonist »

My home was built in 1884 and most of the windows were , at best, painful to use and at worst, non-functional. Plus, I live in New England, so you can imagine how cold and drafty the house was in winter.
I hope this does not offend all you architectural purists out there- I hated the idea of replacing all those beautiful old windows with vinyl, but I did (not long after I bought the house in 2009), and I have never looked back.
I was surprised how close to "original" they look, and they are completely maintenance-free.

You might save a lot of money by buying the windows yourself, and then hiring somebody to install them. Window installation is not rocket science. (an aside- neither is rocket science, at least according to an old friend of mine who is a retired "rocket scientist").
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Dottie57 »

donall wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:34 pm If you can’t see out of your windows or can’t open them then you need new windows.
+1. Take care of the wood on your windows. Maintenance is key. Buy quality - it pays in comfort.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by tibbitts »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 pm Any thoughts on Window World?
I just got a quote from WW that was surprisingly higher than I'd expected. It was close to a quote for what would probably be considered a more "premium" window. It was about 20% above a well-known (here) but local-only firm. I'm not an expert on window quality, but after a dozen years all my low-cost vinyl windows have been excellent. They were made by a company that's since gone out of business. I'm only replacing them because they were destroyed by a storm. It's possible/likely that a stronger window (maybe aluminum vs. vinyl, or maybe fiberglass) would have survived (not the glass, but the frames.) I'd never buy a wood window - just doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by tibbitts »

protagonist wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:06 am My home was built in 1884 and most of the windows were , at best, painful to use and at worst, non-functional. Plus, I live in New England, so you can imagine how cold and drafty the house was in winter.
I hope this does not offend all you architectural purists out there- I hated the idea of replacing all those beautiful old windows with vinyl, but I did (not long after I bought the house in 2009), and I have never looked back.
I was surprised how close to "original" they look, and they are completely maintenance-free.

You might save a lot of money by buying the windows yourself, and then hiring somebody to install them. Window installation is not rocket science. (an aside- neither is rocket science, at least according to an old friend of mine who is a retired "rocket scientist").
Replacing windows isn't easy in many houses. You will likely destroy custom wood trim that will have to be duplicated and replaced. In my case I had to retile part of my bathroom because bathroom tiles were destroyed - there was no way to avoid that because the tiles were literally place over the top of the window frame. Plus remember you have to be careful if you have a wired alarm system to avoid damaging that. One experienced installer I had used non-paintable vs. paintable silicone, a mistake I had never even considered or anticipated.
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Watty
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Watty »

Something to be aware of is that there is a difference between original windows and most replacement windows because the replacement windows will usually have thicker frames for installation. This reduces the glass space so less light will get in the room and this may be noticable.

In made up numbers if the you have window with a glass area of 36x24 inches window and you get a replace window with a frame that is one inch thicker then you now have a glass area of 34x22. This reduces the square inches from 864 to 748 which is about a 13% reduction so you will get 13% less light in the room.

The grids patterns that they sometimes put in the windows will also reduce the glass area and light that comes in. When you look at the numbers having a grid in a window reduced the square inches of clear glass by a significant amount. If you like natural light and it would look OK I would consider leaving those out of your replacement windows to help make up for having a thicker frame.

When you are looking at your window options be sure to compare how many square inches of glass you will have so you will know if you should expect for the room to have less natural light.
CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:57 pm Any thoughts on Window World?
Just before the pandemic I had them come out because I needed a patio door and kitchen garden window replaced. The sales person gave a high quote for those but when I said that would not work for me he then mentioned that they also have a lower price line that was not as energy efficient and only came with something like a five(?) year warranty. That lower energy efficiency matched the windows in the rest of the house and I will likely not be in the house for a real long time so we ordered those.

It sort of irked me that he did not talk about different levels of windows that were available until I had declined the deluxe priced windows.

Apparently all their windows including the patio door are custom manufactured and from what I have read in reviews they often take a lot longer than estimated to be ready to install. I don't remember the details but this was at the beginning of the pandemic and it took longer than expected for ours to be ready but that was OK with me since I was in no hurry to have workmen come into our house during a pandemic to install them.

I recall reading that they subcontracted out the installation of the windows so which crew you get can make a big difference in how the installation goes. The three person crew we got was Brazilian and spoke Portuguese, and some English, and they seemed to have some problems getting the patios door installed at first but eventually it looked OK. About a month later we had to have someone come out and fix the patio screen door since it was having problems. It took him well over an hour to fix it so it was a lot more than just adjusting the screws on the rollers to level it out.

I have mixed feelings about Window World. The price was reasonable and everything seems to be OK but they did not leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling.
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quantAndHold
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by quantAndHold »

protagonist wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:06 am My home was built in 1884 and most of the windows were , at best, painful to use and at worst, non-functional. Plus, I live in New England, so you can imagine how cold and drafty the house was in winter.
I hope this does not offend all you architectural purists out there- I hated the idea of replacing all those beautiful old windows with vinyl, but I did (not long after I bought the house in 2009), and I have never looked back.
I was surprised how close to "original" they look, and they are completely maintenance-free.
Well, it does offend my architectural sensitivies, but I get where you’re coming from. We were in the same boat. We replaced ours with lookalike wood windows. Expensive, but we would have lost our historical designation (and the large property tax break that comes with it) if we’d gone with vinyl.
tibbitts
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by tibbitts »

Watty wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:21 am The grids patterns that they sometimes put in the windows will also reduce the glass area and light that comes in. When you look at the numbers having a grid in a window reduced the square inches of clear glass by a significant amount. If you like natural light and it would look OK I would consider leaving those out of your replacement windows to help make up for having a thicker frame.
The grids cost extra and you have to request them, or at least that's how it was for me, but what I find is that when I walk around the neighborhood and look at windows, it's instantly obvious whether a window needs grids or not. There is no gray area - it's like it hits you in the face. Frame color, etc. is all judgement, but grids not at all. I didn't get grids for the back or side of my house because... well, nobody ever sees those. Only for the front.
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illumination
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by illumination »

They probably should be replaced.

If it doesn't clash with the character of the home, I'd look into non-wood windows like fiberglass, vinyl, aluminum, etc.

Be careful, the window business is full of con artists and sleazeball sales people. Get lots of quotes and vet the companies.
DetroitRick
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by DetroitRick »

From what you described, it is likely that replacement is needed. But, because you expressed concern about it, I would at least get one more quote - this time from a qualified window repair company that doesn't specialize in new installs. Windows are highly repairable, but it's impossible to know whether you've crossed the line toward replacement.

It's at least worth a conversation, provided you can find that qualified repair company in your area - because everything you described is individually repairable. It comes down to what makes sense collectively and for the longer term.

In our sub, with various grades of builder-grade wood windows, circa 1990's, both approaches have worked when the right companies were used. I've repaired my own windows a few times and know how to keep them up. The problem I see here, lies with the integrity and skill of the installation companies in this field - at least where I live. It ranges from absolute greaseballs and cons to fairly competent. It's not a field that I would hire without extensive quoting and references - more so than any other home improvement category.

Based on friends who have done replacements, the energy claims these guys promised are pretty dubious. Unless windows are the only weak link.

Whichever way you go, the dollars involved will justify some upfront legwork first.
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by coffeeblack »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm Our house was built in 1974 and still has their original Pella (wood) windows. The reason I had a window guy come look to see if he could repair them were as follows:

1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.

In any event, the plan was to get these repaired, but the rep said it would probably cost $5-6k to do repairs when getting new windows for the entire house would be $12-13k. Another window guy came out and said almost the exact same thing.

I am always hesitant about stuff like this because I live in a very nice part of town, and for other stuff that I know more about, the estimates have been completely comical.

So, do I actually need new windows? And if so, are the energy savings actually noticeable, or is that just marketing hogwash?
How many windows?
jt90505
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by jt90505 »

Replaced a bunch of 25-30 year old windows/ patio doors last year. Biggest regret is not doing it sooner.

Three comments:
1) Doing it over I would not get the grids on rear/side windows. Probably because every other house in the neighborhood has them on street facing windows, I would have kept the grids for those windows.
2) "no see-um' screens were well worth the extra cost for us.
3) FWIW we got Milguard windows and are very happy with them. Once installed Milguard becomes responsible; their warranty is good and we had occasion to use it, service was outstanding. No questioning whether product or installation was to blame.
tibbitts
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by tibbitts »

coffeeblack wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:56 pm
CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm Our house was built in 1974 and still has their original Pella (wood) windows. The reason I had a window guy come look to see if he could repair them were as follows:

1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.

In any event, the plan was to get these repaired, but the rep said it would probably cost $5-6k to do repairs when getting new windows for the entire house would be $12-13k. Another window guy came out and said almost the exact same thing.

I am always hesitant about stuff like this because I live in a very nice part of town, and for other stuff that I know more about, the estimates have been completely comical.

So, do I actually need new windows? And if so, are the energy savings actually noticeable, or is that just marketing hogwash?
How many windows?
It's not helpful to say $12-13k without knowing the number, type (architectural shapes vs. rectangular, single vs. double-hung, picture, tempered glass required by code, etc.), and size of the windows. But for most houses that's not extremely expensive.
rivercrosser
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by rivercrosser »

I just had a couple Provia fiberglass entry doors and an Andersen slider installed. Now I'm looking at window options. I have 13 of the Anderson narrowline. I can buy the conversion kits with new low E 400 series sash for just over $6000.00 and install them myself. My frames seem to be in good shape. Also looking at the Provia Aspect, 8 with built in blinds, the other 5 without. He sent me a rough estimate of about $1,234 a piece for the ones with blinds. Would be a complete tear out of the old frames with new casing etc. inside. Any opinions on the Andersen conversion kits or the Provia windows?
nordsteve
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by nordsteve »

Buying quality windows can save you money over time.

My house was built in 1957 and I have original Andersen casement / picture windows on the main level. They have been well taken care of, and the painter last year said there were no soft spots and just a bit of sill checking.

I’ve had to replace two sashes - one broken by a turkey, and one where the seal failed. I ordered replacement sashes shipped directly from Andersen. They were something like $250 apiece. Painted the outsides, stained and varnished the insides. Install took about 10 minutes. You'd never know they were not original.
Trader Joe
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by Trader Joe »

CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm Our house was built in 1974 and still has their original Pella (wood) windows. The reason I had a window guy come look to see if he could repair them were as follows:

1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.

In any event, the plan was to get these repaired, but the rep said it would probably cost $5-6k to do repairs when getting new windows for the entire house would be $12-13k. Another window guy came out and said almost the exact same thing.

I am always hesitant about stuff like this because I live in a very nice part of town, and for other stuff that I know more about, the estimates have been completely comical.

So, do I actually need new windows? And if so, are the energy savings actually noticeable, or is that just marketing hogwash?
No, it appears that you do not.

You should do all that you can to avoid being ripped off.
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CoastLawyer2030
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

Trader Joe wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:22 pm
CoastLawyer2030 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:42 pm Our house was built in 1974 and still has their original Pella (wood) windows. The reason I had a window guy come look to see if he could repair them were as follows:

1. Probably 60% of the windows fog up. You can feel cold or hot air coming through the ones on the back of the house.

2. Almost all of the windows on the back of the house (which faces due South) are rotting in some shape or another. There is one that is extremely bad and without question needs completely replaced.

3. About half of the windows do not open. The Pella rep this is either because the house settled after being built or some goofy part on a rope is no longer connected.

In any event, the plan was to get these repaired, but the rep said it would probably cost $5-6k to do repairs when getting new windows for the entire house would be $12-13k. Another window guy came out and said almost the exact same thing.

I am always hesitant about stuff like this because I live in a very nice part of town, and for other stuff that I know more about, the estimates have been completely comical.

So, do I actually need new windows? And if so, are the energy savings actually noticeable, or is that just marketing hogwash?
No, it appears that you do not.

You should do all that you can to avoid being ripped off.
Interesting. What do you recommend?
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CoastLawyer2030
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

coffeeblack wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:56 pm How many windows?
tibbitts wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:40 pm It's not helpful to say $12-13k without knowing the number, type (architectural shapes vs. rectangular, single vs. double-hung, picture, tempered glass required by code, etc.), and size of the windows. But for most houses that's not extremely expensive.
There are 24 windows. All of them are rectangular, single-hung windows with grids, except for one bay window.

This is a picture of my house if you are looking for the style:

Image

Image

This is the front of the house. The sills and frames are in good shape but they fog up. Two of the windows in the front don't open.
jm1495
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by jm1495 »

You need new windows. The fogging is a failure of the seal in the glass panel that has let the argon out that helps insulate the window. You could replace the glass panel itself but with the other issues it makes sense to replace them.
The Lowes/homedepot "house" brand is as good as the others. In fact those brands are made by the same manufacturers as the name brand.
Plygem/Silverline/Reliabuilt are all comparable windows. Window world doesn't build their own windows either.

Anderson's are higher quality with better fit and finish.

$500 per hole is in the ballpark for cost.

Source: I work for a window manufacturer.
FrodoKenobi
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by FrodoKenobi »

Whether or not you are being sold is tough to say. If you figure you need new windows, as big an issue as the brand is the installation. A poorly installed window is not a good window.
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CoastLawyer2030
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Re: Do I Actually Need New Windows, or Am I Being Sold?

Post by CoastLawyer2030 »

jm1495 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:03 am You need new windows. The fogging is a failure of the seal in the glass panel that has let the argon out that helps insulate the window. You could replace the glass panel itself but with the other issues it makes sense to replace them.
The Lowes/homedepot "house" brand is as good as the others. In fact those brands are made by the same manufacturers as the name brand.
Plygem/Silverline/Reliabuilt are all comparable windows. Window world doesn't build their own windows either.

Anderson's are higher quality with better fit and finish.

$500 per hole is in the ballpark for cost.

Source: I work for a window manufacturer.
Honestly, I really don't care about insulation. I have three friends who got new windows and all three said the energy savings were miniscule with new windows.

My main concern is the exterior frame rotting and letting water into the house.
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