Low-Impact Fence Extension?

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dboeger1
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Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by dboeger1 »

Hello Bogleheads,

Note: It's a bit of an interesting story that's relevant to the question and perhaps an informative tale of caution for first-time home buyers, but if you'd rather not spend the time to read it, I'll put another marker like this one down below so you can skip to the question:

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I have a bit of a doozy here. My wife and I are first time home owners as of about 9 months ago. We live in what is referred to around here as an "attached single family home", basically a duplex but with separate lots/addresses as opposed to a wholly owned multi-unit building. We have a fence surrounding our very small back "yard" (more of a short patio with a small garden area, really). I haven't yet confirmed that the fence is technically ours, but it almost certainly is because it goes around all 3 sides of the back. In any case, we have no interest in policing what neighbors do on their side of shared edges; they can pee on the fence for all I care. We've tried to be very friendly neighbors these past 9 months. We have 2 fruit trees which the previous owner hadn't pruned in a long time, so they were growing way over the neighboring properties. I spoke with the right neighbor shortly after moving in and offered to prune the tree if he didn't want it there, and he actually said he enjoyed picking the fruits from it and would prune it after the season, which was a win-win for us. As for the back neighbor, my wife actually took some boxes of fruit over to them about a month ago and asked if they wanted us to prune our tree, and they also said they didn't mind and enjoyed sitting under the shade, so we left it at that. Everything seemed fine between all us somewhat tightly packed neighbors.

The thing is, a number of neighbor issues have started to crop up, seemingly all at once, maybe due to the weather and the post-pandemic reopening. The biggest one which is only tangentially related to the fence issue but I think is worth mentioning is that this area has always had and continues to have a serious problem with people violating fireworks ordinances. It's a major problem because we're going through a pretty severe drought with water restrictions, and fireworks have caused major fires in the past, including one I had to call 911 for last year because someone accidentally blew up some fireworks inside their home. As if that wasn't enough, my wife is about 20 weeks pregnant with our first child. I'm not a doctor or anything, but I was doing research this past weekend on whether it would be safe to go to a rock concert during one of our upcoming trips (spoiler: it's not recommended at a time when baby's hearing is just reaching full development), when suddenly a massive firework explosion went off right near our home on our street and shook houses, set off car alarms, etc. My wife angrily stormed out without carefully assessing the situation, which is one of my pet peeves that she always does. She walked up to the people who I could very obviously tell did it and asked who set off the fireworks, and they just pointed down the street and said it was somebody down that way, so she kept walking. I was catching up behind her because I got caught up trying to keep both dogs (more on that later) from running out when she opened the door. I noticed the box they launched from still burning, and then one of the guys cracked a joke about my wife going to complain about all the fireworks in the city, and I nearly let loose on this guy, but then I noticed a couple of things that made me pause. First is that one of the guys started pushing their car along, and it dawned on me that they were using the car to "hide" the fireworks (maybe from police?) but also that they had driven from somewhere else and were likely moving around the neighborhood launching from different locations, so I figured I was dealing with people on a crime spree. Second is that it was dark and it took me a while to notice there was a pitch black pit bull just chilling in the back seat of the car he was pushing, and the windows were all open, and I didn't know how big of a threat the dog would become if I got confrontational. Because my wife had kept walking, they were now between her and our home, so I thought if things got ugly, she would not be in a safe position. So I just quietly waited for her to come back, went inside, loaded my handgun, and started backing up our security footage which showed what had happened. Maybe 10 minutes later, they launched some more fireworks from the same spot and then immediately drove off.

Now, for some more context on that specific night of fireworks, I think it was related to school graduation parties. There are fireworks just about every week here so it could have been anything, but there was an unusually high number of fireworks that night, as well as numerous parties among our close neighbors, several of which had signs that suggested they were celebrating school graduations. I don't really know the neighborhood kids that well yet, but I've seen many of them play together outside, so there are clearly close relationships between nearby families in the community. There are actually pretty frequent parties here too. I don't mind. My wife is a little more sensitive to the noise, but she also lets them go. However, we've had issues in the past where trash like plastic wrappers and little bits of firecrackers end up in our space. I usually just clean it up without saying anything. However, our back neighbor was holding a loud pinata party the same night as the firework incident, and for some reason, a large pile of chocolates was thrown over the fence onto our side, as well as some empty plastic drink bottles (not individual size, but like legit 2L party bottles). We hadn't even noticed for 2 days because we were distracted by the firework incident and running some other errands. We have a small dog, and we've also been caring for a friend's dog the past few days, and we've been letting them out back to relieve themselves. Obviously, this is a serious issue, because dogs cannot eat chocolate. Thankfully, they didn't appear to eat any and were probably deterred by the wrappers, but I can't let this continue. And it may be chocolates and dogs now, but I don't want to let it become our first born child and razor blades or something a year from now. I'm honestly appalled that they would allow this to happen after we were on somewhat friendly terms over the tree issue, but I also recognize that younger kids may have had something to do with it.

Normally, I would just go back there and talk to them about it, but here's where I get a little tin-foil-hatty. Let me preface this by saying I'm half-Hispanic and grew up in a working class family with an immigrant mother, so I'm not trying to be offensive here, but most of these neighbors I'm talking about are working-class Hispanic families, and that seems to be a common bond between many of them, especially the ones with several school-aged children. Even the firework people who drove off after setting off fireworks seemed to have connections on the street because a number of the home owners around them came out and talked to them but didn't appear to scold them or shoo them away or anything. So my concern is that there's a network of families here and if we're not careful with our complaints as the new outsiders, we might unintentionally make more enemies than we're prepared to have. I know that these issues are serious, because what seems like a rowdy pinata party and some harmless fireworks to them could mean the dogs dying or our first child being born deaf, and they can forget about me being the nice neighbor if either of those things happens. But I also have to consider that the firework people and the pinata people might share social circles and things could escalate.

Since I have actual video evidence of what happened with the fireworks and would be willing to report it to the police should that happen again, I'm thinking of just quietly putting up some sort of fence height extension on the fence. It wouldn't need to be fancy. I'd be fine just sticking some chicken wire up on the fence if it deters unsafe trash from coming over. Of course, I will need to prune the tree so that it no longer reaches over into their space. However, we also get strong winds sometimes, so ideally whatever we do should be reasonably sturdy.

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TL;DR

So is extending the fence a good idea, and if so, does anyone have any experience with how to do this effectively, ideally with low impact on the existing fencing so I can remove it later should we eventually sell the house down the line? I did a quick online search and saw a bunch of fence extension products, but I don't know just from looking at pictures how they'll stand up to strong winds or how easy they will be to remove from the fence later on.
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lthenderson
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by lthenderson »

Extending the height of an existing fence can be against local ordinances. Check to verify. It can also increase the wind loading on your fence and if not initially designed and build for that loading, cause it to topple over. It may not be feasible depending on your specific fence design. It can offend neighbors who might not like the reduced view (i.e. why many ordinances have height restrictions).
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Sandtrap
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by Sandtrap »

How is changing the fence going to change neighbors and neighborhood dynamics and your relationships there?

Consumer Item = Fence
Actionably: can the fence be replaced with a maximum height solid fence per HOA and bldg code.

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curmudgeon
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by curmudgeon »

A very common way of extending fence height around here in CA is to use 2'x8' lattice panels on top of the fence, often boxed into a frame made out of 2"x2". The openings in the lattice reduce the wind load of the higher fence and make a bit of a transition. Drive around and take a look at how some are done in your area. You could make some sets of these and screw them together (and to your existing fence posts) with metal nailing plates. Not necessarily super elegant, but it might work ok.

Neighborhood dynamics can be tricky. I might start by trying to bring up some general concerns with various neighbors, maybe talking about whether setting up a "neighborhood watch" organization would be appropriate. You can start nudging expectations along, but don't have to be militant about it. Sometimes the hints can take hold over time.
iamlucky13
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by iamlucky13 »

dboeger1 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:14 pmit dawned on me that they were using the car to "hide" the fireworks (maybe from police?) but also that they had driven from somewhere else and were likely moving around the neighborhood launching from different locations, so I figured I was dealing with people on a crime spree.
In situations like this, unless I had reason to be concerned for safety, I would quietly but obviously take a photo of the car from an angle the plates are visible. You know the circumstances better than I do, so I won't try to judge if it would have been wise at that time.

The goal here is not to be confrontational, but to make them feel conspicuous. People acting the way you describe don't like to be conspicuous.

I have asked my wife to do this on the road a few times when circumstances allowed and she is in the passenger seat and we witness reckless driving (although most of the time we would have had to drive recklessly ourselves to catch up with them). It really works. Picture perfect behavior just from letting them know their actions are visible and implying they could get in trouble if they keep it up.

A visible security camera and a tasteful but visible video recording notice sign in front of the house may also help.

I don't think extending the fence is likely to make a significant difference in items thrown over the fence. If it seems pointed (and I think chicken wire could), the problem neighbor may choose to make a point of showing they won't be stopped by a taller fence.

Annoying as the history may be, I would still try to get to know the neighbors and be friendly. Make the most of a frustrating situation and hope they will be more considerate in the future.

In case it helps, keep in mind that we usually think unexpected, sharp sounds are louder than they really are, and occupational noise guidelines have different noise levels of concern for short durations than long durations (I'll leave it to you to look up details, per forum rules).

As noted by others, in many jurisdictions, fences over a certain height are restricted and may require a permit or be prohibited.
Katietsu
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by Katietsu »

The fence extension sounds like a bad idea. A couple of empty 2 L bottles and some chocolate sounds like some
kids screwing around. My 13 year old self would have seen your fence extension as a challenge and all sorts of things of new things would have been intentionally headed into your yard. Not suggesting that the response would have been appropriate but I will suggest that it would be a common response.
Last edited by Katietsu on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Topic Author
dboeger1
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by dboeger1 »

Excellent points. We have no HOA and code enforcement appears to be very lax in our immediate area, despite being in a major urban center in CA. I think it's because we live in a mostly working-class minority neighborhood with long history in the area, so it's not as hoity-toity as many of the more gentrified neighborhoods around us. While I don't think our area is as bad as its reputation from years and decades past, it's not the greatest part of town and has its share of crime, homelessness, gangs, and other such issues. Basically, I think law enforcement has bigger fish to fry than fence heights. We have neighbors raising chickens on their small urban lots, that's how lax it is. It's kind of refreshing actually compared to all the cookie cutter HOA neighborhoods that measure grass height, which is partly why we bought here (well, price was the biggest factor, lol).

Our fence is actually a decently nice solid wood fence, so it's already not something where little kids just poked chocolates through a hole or whatever. In fact, I don't think it was kids, I just can't prove it. Clearly someone tossed a bunch of trash over the fence (it's probably about 6 feet tall). The thing that really concerns me is that there were 2 times over the weekend that the 2 dogs started barking out of nowhere while in the back. These dogs were otherwise as quiet as mice, and are by far the quietest dogs in the neighborhood, no contest, because we have close neighbors with dogs that bark all day every day for no reason. We didn't check what they were barking at because we figured it was just a squirrel or something, and they promptly stopped. If it were kids, I feel like we would have heard them laughing at/with the dogs. The fact that we didn't hear anything and the dogs barked out of nowhere at 2 random moments, and there were 2 types junk (chocolate and bottles) that were in the back, it all just makes me think an adult knowingly tossed their trash over, maybe even maliciously trying to give chocolate to the dogs. We have cameras around the house, but they cannot see much in the back neighbor's area over the fence because it was never my intention to spy on their private life.

Seeing as how I don't really want to do anything to the fence and don't know the local fence height regulations at this time, I'll probably just let it slide and chalk it up to one crazy post-pandemic weekend. If it happens again, I'll do some more serious research into our options. I don't really see myself consulting with them about their visibility. They lost that privilege already as far as I'm concerned. I am more concerned about safety and wind load though, and I do want to keep the home sellable even though we have no plans to move any time soon.
Katietsu
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by Katietsu »

If someone was intentionally trying to harm your animals, you have problems that can not be solved by a fence extension.

Do you have a plan for coping with fireworks season? You said you moved 9 months ago meaning that you were not there last 4th of July. Around me, the fireworks will start next weekend, peak the weekend of the fourth, and trickle on until into August. Rural, city or upscale suburban, it is pretty much everywhere to some degree. When I had a dog sensitive to the fireworks, I had to have a plan. But then, where I live, wild fires do not lead to loss of life and billions of dollars of damage, so maybe your area is different.

Are you sure the chickens are a violation? I am not in CA. But many major urban areas have ordinances that go back over a hundred years that permit chickens even on postage stamp properties?
elle
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by elle »

Could they have strapped the piñata to your shade-producing tree and accidentally hit the chocolate into your yard? I’d have just returned the candy and said, “hey I think you guys accidentally got it over the fence. I’d hate to see it go to waste. My dogs found it but thankfully they didn’t eat anything”. (P.S. Not everyone knows chocolate can kill dogs. In fact I know a dog who ate an entire bag of chocolate and the vet said certain breeds are more susceptible to reactions with chocolate) “We have small lots, so let’s exchange numbers and you can text me if something makes it over the fence”.

Anyways for this one I’d play naive and be neighborly but also I’d say something to make it known that you are seeing the behavior.

I have kids and small city lot. We have had multiple balls and other miscellaneous things make it into our neighbor’s yard.

The fireworks… well I don’t think there is much to do besides calling the city to enforce without being confrontational which you seem hesitant about. my aunt lives in a working class area and they water their roof and yard thoroughly leading up to the 4th to prevent issues. Have been for decades. In terms of the noise, talk to your OB about the risk level of fireworks outside the house. Then make a plan.
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dboeger1
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by dboeger1 »

elle wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:53 am Could they have strapped the piñata to your shade-producing tree and accidentally hit the chocolate into your yard?
Well, I must have made a mistake when originally going through the security footage, because I checked again last night and found what happened. It's similar to what you suggested, albeit a little sillier. They didn't strap the pinata to anything, but had adults up on chairs holding the string, and for whatever reason, they felt the need to violently swing the pinata up and down like they were possessed by banshees. I mean, I never thought I'd criticize someone's pinata holding technique, but I've had my fair share of pinata parties and never witnessed anything close to that (I thought the point was, you know, to let the kids actually hit it). Anyway, at one point, it broke while they were flinging it up and it launched all the chocolates about 10 feet in the air and into our yard. So definitely not as intentional as I feared, but still pretty disappointing given that there really was no need to be so crazy with the pinata. Seeing as how I'm not really cooled off about it and they probably heard my wife getting angry when she found the chocolates, I'm just going to let it go and hope they don't have too many more wild parties planned. Like you said, it probably didn't even register for them that the chocolates were hazards for the dogs. As for the bottles, I still have no idea what happened there because the tree was between them and the cameras.
elle wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:53 am The fireworks… well I don’t think there is much to do besides calling the city to enforce without being confrontational which you seem hesitant about. my aunt lives in a working class area and they water their roof and yard thoroughly leading up to the 4th to prevent issues. Have been for decades. In terms of the noise, talk to your OB about the risk level of fireworks outside the house. Then make a plan.
Good point. Her next appointment is this Friday, and we'll be on vacation out of state for the 4th, so we shouldn't have too much of a problem this year. We'll most likely be watching fireworks but we won't be in the immediate vicinity of where they'll be launching from.
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Watty
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by Watty »

dboeger1 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:54 pm ....but still pretty disappointing given that there really was no need to be so crazy with the pinata.
If one of your biggest problem in the neighborhood is that some of the neighbors sometimes get a little rowdy with piñatas then count yourself lucky.

I can understand your concern about the chocolate an your dogs but give yourself plenty of time to cool down before you talk to your neighbor about it. It was an accident and the dogs did not eat it.
p14175
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by p14175 »

If you like the neighborhood, maybe starting a Neighborhood Watch can improve things.
Katietsu
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by Katietsu »

dboeger1 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:54 pmI mean, I never thought I'd criticize someone's pinata holding technique, but I've had my fair share of pinata parties and never witnessed anything close to that (I thought the point was, you know, to let the kids actually hit it). Anyway, at one point, it broke while they were flinging it up and it launched all the chocolates about 10 feet in the air and into our yard. So definitely not as intentional as I feared, but still pretty disappointing given that there really was no need to be so crazy with the pinata. Seeing as how I'm not really cooled off about it and they probably heard my wife getting angry when she found the chocolates, I'm just going to let it go and hope they don't have too many more wild parties planned. Like you said, it probably didn't even register for them that the chocolates were hazards for the dogs.

I understand getting upset about your dog potentially suffering a health problem. There were two or three summers that a group in my then neighborhood would buy chicken wings about 2 blocks east of us and eat as they walked or drove as they drove a scooter to their house located two blocked west of us. They would dump the chicken bones as they went, including in front of our house. As cooked chicken bones can kill a dog, every time we went for a walk, I had to be alert to keep my dog from finding them first. I was glad when the dude got over his divorce and quit acting like a partying college kid in a 45 year old’s body.

But, I put some of the phrases in bold, because those words and expressions, make you seem like the unreasonable neighbor. Hopefully you can get past the fear you felt about the dogs and realize that you have a good situation if erratic pinatas are your biggest concern. How do you think the neighbor should react in a few years when your kid tosses toys, balls or frisbees into their yard? What should the neighbor do if your kid breaks one of their windows with a bad throw or runs into one of the neighbor’s cars while riding a bike? Think of the grace that you would want your neighbor to show your family. Maybe it will be easier then to show them the same grace.
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StevieG72
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by StevieG72 »

Oh boy, you may need to move!

Sounds like the chocolate in your yard was a friendly fire accident.

The fireworks will likely continue year round, when I moved in to my current home fireworks were a thing year round. And not just little bottle rockets but mortars launching. It continued for years and now is less frequent, all bets are off on 4th of July and New Years though. I just laughed it off and even joined the shenanigan on the 4th of July a few times.

Contacting the police over a past fireworks incident will be a low priority.
Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others.
elle
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Re: Low-Impact Fence Extension?

Post by elle »

dboeger1 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:54 pm
elle wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:53 am Could they have strapped the piñata to your shade-producing tree and accidentally hit the chocolate into your yard?
Well, I must have made a mistake when originally going through the security footage, because I checked again last night and found what happened. It's similar to what you suggested, albeit a little sillier. They didn't strap the pinata to anything, but had adults up on chairs holding the string, and for whatever reason, they felt the need to violently swing the pinata up and down like they were possessed by banshees. I mean, I never thought I'd criticize someone's pinata holding technique, but I've had my fair share of pinata parties and never witnessed anything close to that (I thought the point was, you know, to let the kids actually hit it). Anyway, at one point, it broke while they were flinging it up and it launched all the chocolates about 10 feet in the air and into our yard. So definitely not as intentional as I feared, but still pretty disappointing given that there really was no need to be so crazy with the pinata. Seeing as how I'm not really cooled off about it and they probably heard my wife getting angry when she found the chocolates, I'm just going to let it go and hope they don't have too many more wild parties planned. Like you said, it probably didn't even register for them that the chocolates were hazards for the dogs. As for the bottles, I still have no idea what happened there because the tree was between them and the cameras.
elle wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:53 am The fireworks… well I don’t think there is much to do besides calling the city to enforce without being confrontational which you seem hesitant about. my aunt lives in a working class area and they water their roof and yard thoroughly leading up to the 4th to prevent issues. Have been for decades. In terms of the noise, talk to your OB about the risk level of fireworks outside the house. Then make a plan.
Good point. Her next appointment is this Friday, and we'll be on vacation out of state for the 4th, so we shouldn't have too much of a problem this year. We'll most likely be watching fireworks but we won't be in the immediate vicinity of where they'll be launching from.
Glad to hear that the chocolate incident was a misunderstanding. Your responses feel more zen. Happy to hear that. Just remember, pick and choose your battles because neighbors aren’t easily changeable!
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