HVAC Decision between quotes

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Barkingsparrow
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HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Barkingsparrow »

We live in the Midwest. Our current HVAC system is 16+ years old and the A/C is hitting the Freon issue. I've gotten 4 quotes so far:

1. $7500 - Furnace: Trane XB80 80,000 BTU,80%, single-stage. A/C: Trane XR13, 36000 BTU, Seer 13+. This seems to be a quote for the budget models. The quote also include an AprilAire/Health Climate Humidifier. He was the only vendor to remember to add the humidifier to the quote.

2. $8500 - Furnace: Trane XV80 80,000 BTU, 80%, variable stage. A/C: Trane XR13, 36000 BTU, Seer 13+ . They forgot to quote for a humidifier and said after the fact that it would add about $400 to the quote, so the real quote is closer to $9000. The furnace is one step down from the the top of the line model in the Trane 80 series. The A/C is the same as quote #1.

3. $8900 - Furnace: Bryant 820TA, 90,000 BTU, 80% variable stage. A/C: Bryant Legacy 116B, Seer, up to 16. Also forgot to include a quote for a humidifier. So probably looking at $9500 total.

4. $10000 - Furnace: Trane XV80 again, A/C: Trane XR16, 16 Seer 16. Yet another vendor forgetting to quote a humidifier. I seriously doubt we need that power A/C.

So option #1 is basically a budget option. The other 3 are variations of higher line models. We typically need to run the furnace much more than the A/C - say from mid Oct through at least April. Sept / May tends to be temps that sporadically need either A/C or the furnace. June/July/August usually sees hot/humid weather, typically in the 80's. We are thinking we will stay in this house about another 6 or 7 years then downsize. My budget billing for gas has varied between $94 to $112 month for the past 5 years. I'm leaning towards the budget option simply because I doubt we'll get ROI on higher level items.

Appreciate any advice you might have - if there is something I might have missed. Thanks!
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BolderBoy
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by BolderBoy »

The common wisdom is that the person doing the installation is much more important than the brand name of the equipment being installed. Having recently gone through an HVAC replacement of a 19 y/o system (H in October and AC yesterday), I would certainly agree with that assessment.

If you are considering Trane also consider American Standard since both brands roll off the same assembly line (my new American Standard replaced the previous Trane).

I got 5 quotes from folks I just didn't hit it off with and the quotations were all over the map all for the same equipment. Called up a 6th company that I had shirked and the estimator and I hit it off right away. He also steered me away from complexity. In the process I learned that some companies have commission-based estimators which explained the wide difference in quotations.

Don't go with a company that is willing to skip the permitting/inspection process if such is required by your city/county. If an inspection is required, don't pay the entire bill upon work completion - hold back 20% until the inspection is passed.

Only go with a company that spells out everything you want done in a contract signed by both parties.
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Big Dog
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Big Dog »

why not a two-stage furnace (instead of variable)? Our 2-stage makes a big difference in comfort. What about a more efficient furnace, which would allow fewer BTU's? Does your local gas company offer any rebates on the efficient models? btw: I believe the variable speed blower works best with a higher efficiency unit.

Consider obtaining a few more quotes. Ask for a Manual J (heating/cooling analysis).
petras52
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by petras52 »

Hello..if you plan on staying in your current home for less than 10 years, you may want to consider pricing a lower cost brand like Goodman. I live near louisville, ky. and just replaced my 20 year old Goodman hvac system with a higher efficiency Goodman system. During those 20 years, the only repair was a $300, parts and labor, condenser motor at year 12. Otherwise it was trouble free. My new system is a 3.5 ton, 16 seer ac with 5 ton evaporator coil, 96% efficiency, 80K btu, single stage gas furnace, and a high efficiency 4" filter. 10 year parts warranty is standard. Total cost including labor back in the slow month of March was $5500, before $500 in utility rebates. As others have mentioned the installation quality is more important than the brand. Also replacing during slower times of year may save you around 10%. Best of luck on whatever you decide..
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Tubes
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Tubes »

I live in the southeast and just replaced my 22 year old unit. My quotes were very similar to yours, FYI.

I didn't overthink it, except to say I used my trusted company that installed the last one. Not the lowest quote. 22 years isn't bad, and they did a great job last time and it looks to be a good job this time. Honestly, in this crazy shortage environment, I just wanted working A/C. That's important in the south. My quick action is probably contributing to inflation. So be it.

I previously had top of the line everything. It was great, but I am finding the mid-range to be just fine this time. I specifically did not get a multi-stage or variable speed compressor since they tend to have more reliability issues. I DID get a 2-stage 80% furnace. Depending on where you are in the midwest, I'm surprised you haven't looked at condensing furnaces. I got quotes for both 80% and condensers. Ultimately, heat is not as important in the south and I didn't like the way the new piping would have to run in my garage, so I stuck with 80%.

My company pulled all the proper permits and even had to do some extra work such as adding a bollard (crash protection) and some new hard sided duct work to properly pass inspection. Codes changed in 22 years. My company only required a small downpayment and gave me 30 days to pay the balance after. I was happy with that.

It took a day and half and for most of that time they had 3 guys working.
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Barkingsparrow
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Barkingsparrow »

Doing a little more research - I think the single-stage model may simply robust enough for our bi-level house. So I'm going with a two-stage. When it comes to it - prices are about the same for all quotes so far, so as has been iterated here many times - it's about who you trust to do a good installation.
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Toons
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Toons »

Only so many manufacturing companies make the parts.
I would consider
Rheem
Variable Stage
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by RickBoglehead »

Definitely do some research as to what your utility company may give you a rebate for. My utility gives $500 for a 97% AFUE, $200 for 96%, and $100 for 95%. Not a lot, but if you were getting a 94%, and it cost $600 to go to a 97%, and you got $500 back...

I looked at Costco once for an install years ago at a relative's house, and while the Costco rebate sounded interesting, the cost to get it in equipment and features was not even remotely comparable - way, way more.

A neighbor replaced his original system with a "high efficiency" system, his words, not mine. It failed repeatedly, whatever that's worth.
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segfault
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by segfault »

Do you really need a new furnace, or just the A/C? In many cases, you don't have to replace the furnace just because you're doing the A/C. I replaced a 29-year-old A/C unit as well as the indoor coils a couple years ago. Still running a 2007-ish furnace.

What's the price difference to get a 90%+ furnace?
dalbright
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by dalbright »

Install is the most important as you have noted. I would opt for a two stage heater, single stage AC. The modulating components and multi stage AC's add too much complexity/cost at repair time. Variable speed blower is nice as well. Try and see if you can get quote 1 to change the furnace model for you and go from there. They won't normally spec them all. Personally I try and look at the typical replacement parts cost/ease of install and work backwards since I prefer to do as much as possible. Make sure to take a look at the current AC unit and see how the sizing compares of the new quotes. Some people rely on the J-calc estimates...some personal experience but thats a different can of worms. Just don't want your expectations of the AC unit to be based on under/over sizing issues. If getting humidifier, be sure they tap the hot water line for the best outcome (also typically part of the install manual but often not completed).
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Tubes
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Tubes »

segfault wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:20 pm Do you really need a new furnace, or just the A/C? In many cases, you don't have to replace the furnace just because you're doing the A/C. I replaced a 29-year-old A/C unit as well as the indoor coils a couple years ago. Still running a 2007-ish furnace.

What's the price difference to get a 90%+ furnace?
This is where changing codes bit me. My garage has a low headroom for a vertical installation. Garages have all kinds of special requirements for gas appliances, specifically raising the level of "fire" above a certain point.

So, the construction of my old furnace, combined with the fact that the required minimum SEER coil today is slightly larger, gave me no headroom, so the new, more compact, furnace was required even though the heat exchanger was fine, etc.

I guess I'm saying I agree with you, but sometimes the world changes around your appliance.
Last edited by Tubes on Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by RickBoglehead »

Tubes wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:45 am
segfault wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:20 pm Do you really need a new furnace, or just the A/C? In many cases, you don't have to replace the furnace just because you're doing the A/C. I replaced a 29-year-old A/C unit as well as the indoor coils a couple years ago. Still running a 2007-ish furnace.

What's the price difference to get a 90%+ furnace?
This is where changing codes bit me. My garage has a low headroom for a vertical installation. Garages have all kinds of special requirements for gas appliances, specifically raising the level of "fire" above a certain point.

So, the construction of my old furnace, combined with the fact that the required minimum SEER coil today is slightly larger, gave me no headroom, so the new furnace was required even though the heat exchanger was fine, etc.

I guess I'm saying I agree with you, but sometimes the world changes around your appliance.
Or, the space is a certain size, and a bigger unit cannot fit.
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Tubes
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Tubes »

RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:46 am
Or, the space is a certain size, and a bigger unit cannot fit.
For some maintenance items, I'm jealous of all the new houses. You have all this room for huge appliances, big old range vent fans, etc. I'm not jealous about getting on an extension ladder to replace bulbs or paint, though.

My 40 year old house is your standard multiple 8' ceiling box design. The garage has a very low ceiling (less than 8'), which was not unusual around here back in the day. It seems that there are less and less appliances made to fit my home! Fridges are huge. Washer/Dryers have expanded. And back on topic, the more efficient mechanical systems tend to take up a lot of space.

Anyway, thanks for listening. Rant off. :happy
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by RickBoglehead »

Replaced my mother's AC units about 5 years ago. She had specific dimensions she had to fit, in the garage, which eliminated some units from consideration. Of course, the builder could have allotted more space in a massive garage, but he did not.
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Barkingsparrow
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Barkingsparrow »

segfault wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:20 pm Do you really need a new furnace, or just the A/C? In many cases, you don't have to replace the furnace just because you're doing the A/C. I replaced a 29-year-old A/C unit as well as the indoor coils a couple years ago. Still running a 2007-ish furnace.

What's the price difference to get a 90%+ furnace?
In my case, there's a configuration issue with the duct/air filters on our current furnace and one of the things I've asked is whether they can reconfigure it. I also want to reconfigure where the humidifier is located. Both are inconvenient with respect to replacing filters.
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Tubes
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Tubes »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:02 am
segfault wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:20 pm Do you really need a new furnace, or just the A/C? In many cases, you don't have to replace the furnace just because you're doing the A/C. I replaced a 29-year-old A/C unit as well as the indoor coils a couple years ago. Still running a 2007-ish furnace.

What's the price difference to get a 90%+ furnace?
In my case, there's a configuration issue with the duct/air filters on our current furnace and one of the things I've asked is whether they can reconfigure it. I also want to reconfigure where the humidifier is located. Both are inconvenient with respect to replacing filters.
I feel your pain.
CurlyDave
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by CurlyDave »

Big Dog wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:35 pm why not a two-stage furnace (instead of variable)? Our 2-stage makes a big difference in comfort. What about a more efficient furnace, which would allow fewer BTU's? Does your local gas company offer any rebates on the efficient models? btw: I believe the variable speed blower works best with a higher efficiency unit.

Consider obtaining a few more quotes. Ask for a Manual J (heating/cooling analysis).
+1 on the two stage. Ours made a huge difference.
Answering a question is easy -- asking the right question is the hard part.
killjoy2012
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by killjoy2012 »

In the Midwest, a 2 stage should be an absolute minimum.
I'd rather see you drop from the Luxury brand to the Premium brand, or Premium brand to the Value brand... and upgrade to variable/modulating with the cost savings.
Many Luxury, Premium and Value brands are made on the same assembly line, and often are very close in parts content.
Installation quality is key.

I would call your local Rheem dealer and ask for a quote on their fully modulating furnace with the same 14-16 SEER AC and see where that lands. You're paying heavily for the Trane name.
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Barkingsparrow »

Got a 4th quote - from a small local company that does Daikin. Prices are about the same as the other quotes. The big difference was that the rep spent over an hour measuring, opening up the furnace and checking flow readings, etc. He entered everything into a tablet, and actually re-did the measurements multiple times. The current furnace has a humidifier on it - and he advised that it a humidifier on the furnace was not likely to be all that effective due to the configuration of the vents, etc; none of the others gave us that recommendation.

I felt the other quotes were just looking at what we had, and giving us more or less the same configuration with upgrade options.

There were 3 quotes: standard, mid, and 'luxury'. The same furnace on all 3 quotes: 80%, two-stage, variable speed. The difference was in the A/C: 13, 16, and 17 seer; thermostat, features, warranties, and finance options.

Using 13-seer as the base; 16-seer was $850 more, and 17-seer was $1800 more.

We live in Zone 5, according to this link: https://www.pickhvac.com/central-air-co ... _Do_I_Need, so it's more of a choice between the 13-seer and 15-seer.

I think we are going with this company, due to their detailed diligence in analyzing the configuration; far more than the other companies. I feel they will do a good job of installation, and they get good reviews on all the resources I've checked. No one else spent more than 15 minutes at most in checking the configuration and I never got a good feeling about anything until this latest company came out.
jharkin
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by jharkin »

What is “the Freon issue” ? Why do you feel you need to replace at only 16 years old?
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Supergrover
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Supergrover »

There’s a site that I can’t recall right now..where you can make sure the furnace is supposed to be matched w the AC. I’ll try to look for it. It’s not a mfr site.
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Longdog »

jharkin wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:46 pm What is “the Freon issue” ? Why do you feel you need to replace at only 16 years old?
The R-22 refrigerant used in systems of that age is no longer manufactured and getting difficult to find.
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by tomd37 »

OP - My understanding is that Daikin is an excellent product and very highly regarded in the HVAC world. When I was recently in the market for a new system they always seemed to appear at or very near the top of most lists.
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Barkingsparrow
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Barkingsparrow »

Longdog wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:31 pm
jharkin wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:46 pm What is “the Freon issue” ? Why do you feel you need to replace at only 16 years old?
The R-22 refrigerant used in systems of that age is no longer manufactured and getting difficult to find.
And very expensive if you do find it. The furnace is beginning to become more noisy, not heating the house as evenly as before. It is also 17 years old, not 16 as I first thought. Maybe this should not be a factor - but I'd like to get this done before retirement, which is at most 2 more years.
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Barkingsparrow
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Barkingsparrow »

tomd37 wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:46 pm OP - My understanding is that Daikin is an excellent product and very highly regarded in the HVAC world. When I was recently in the market for a new system they always seemed to appear at or very near the top of most lists.
I got the same impression. They generally don't do budget level products like some of the others (e.g. Trane XB80). And the prices I'm being quoted are the same as for Trane, Lennox, and Bryant.
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by talzara »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:09 pm And very expensive if you do find it. The furnace is beginning to become more noisy, not heating the house as evenly as before. It is also 17 years old, not 16 as I first thought. Maybe this should not be a factor - but I'd like to get this done before retirement, which is at most 2 more years.
Since you're replacing an R-22 system because of refrigerant availability, why buy an R-410A system now? You'd be stranded on an old refrigerant again.

R-410A has not been phased out for air conditioning yet, but it's coming. R-410A is already banned for use in vending machines and supermarket refrigerators. R-410A doesn't destroy the ozone layer, but it has 2,088 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide.

By the time you retire in 2 years, we should have R-32 and R-454B systems. They'll cost more, but you'll have a much easier time buying new refrigerant. If you buy a new refrigerant when it's first available, it'll last longer than if you buy in the last years before it's phased out. Some people actually bought R-410A systems in the 1990s, so the R-22 phase-out did not affect them at all.
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Tubes
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by Tubes »

Interestingly, when I got my systems in 1999, one was 410, the other 22. It was the 410 system that failed this year. FWIW, the sales guy said the 410 systems run higher pressures, so they tend to leak sooner than the 22s. He said it wouldn't surprise him to see my 22 system last until 30 years. Let's hope so, because I'd like to replace the next one with the next generation refrigerant.
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

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Barkingsparrow wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:12 pm We live in the Midwest. Our current HVAC system is 16+ years old and the A/C is hitting the Freon issue. I've gotten 4 quotes so far:

1. $7500 - Furnace: Trane XB80 80,000 BTU,80%, single-stage. A/C: Trane XR13, 36000 BTU, Seer 13+. This seems to be a quote for the budget models. The quote also include an AprilAire/Health Climate Humidifier. He was the only vendor to remember to add the humidifier to the quote.

2. $8500 - Furnace: Trane XV80 80,000 BTU, 80%, variable stage. A/C: Trane XR13, 36000 BTU, Seer 13+ . They forgot to quote for a humidifier and said after the fact that it would add about $400 to the quote, so the real quote is closer to $9000. The furnace is one step down from the the top of the line model in the Trane 80 series. The A/C is the same as quote #1.

3. $8900 - Furnace: Bryant 820TA, 90,000 BTU, 80% variable stage. A/C: Bryant Legacy 116B, Seer, up to 16. Also forgot to include a quote for a humidifier. So probably looking at $9500 total.

4. $10000 - Furnace: Trane XV80 again, A/C: Trane XR16, 16 Seer 16. Yet another vendor forgetting to quote a humidifier. I seriously doubt we need that power A/C.

So option #1 is basically a budget option. The other 3 are variations of higher line models. We typically need to run the furnace much more than the A/C - say from mid Oct through at least April. Sept / May tends to be temps that sporadically need either A/C or the furnace. June/July/August usually sees hot/humid weather, typically in the 80's. We are thinking we will stay in this house about another 6 or 7 years then downsize. My budget billing for gas has varied between $94 to $112 month for the past 5 years. I'm leaning towards the budget option simply because I doubt we'll get ROI on higher level items.

Appreciate any advice you might have - if there is something I might have missed. Thanks!
We completed an HVAC in January, replacing a Seer 13 builders grade model with a Trane Variable Speed ComfortLink, (Seer 20).
While we use AC 9 out of 12 months a year, this ultimately wasn't the economic optimum. Both the outside unit and inside furnace air handling unit are eerily quiet. The only way to know that either is operating is the temperature of the air coming out of the vents. It is substantially different than the 'jet plane' like startup sound of the old model and weirdly makes me happy each time that I recognize the system is on without actually hearing it. Payback was >10 years but ultimately we're happy with the decision we made.
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Re: HVAC Decision between quotes

Post by rascott »

I replaced a 30 yr old single stage, single speed 120k BTU furnace in middle of winter this year (when prices should be higher).

I use an owner/ operator that's been in the biz for 30+ years. He does the work himself.

Installed a 110k BTU, 2 stage with variable speed motor. It is a Heil. Cost was $3300 installed, which included some duct work adjustments needed.

It's been a huge improvement in comfort over the single speed. The AC unit was much newer and didn't need replaced.

I've also installed Goodman and other "value" priced units in rentals over the years and they've been as reliable as the premium brands you are getting quotes on. I've had furnaces installed for as low as $2k. No Trane unit is going to be the "budget" option.
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