Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

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iamlucky13
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by iamlucky13 »

quantAndHold wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:55 am I know a lot about the internals of how Amazon does security, and I’m sure it’s fine…but I’m going to disable it on my own system. At least until I know more about how they’re doing this.
As I see it, the main lesson of the persistence of an identity theft market that has continued to result in major data breaches for over a decade, including of the DoD, is that no organization's security should be trusted unconditionally. I'm sure Amazon handles some matters very well. Other matters they don't (keeping counterfeit products out of their affiliates' stores, organizing their own website, etc).

Maybe their security practices are great, but I'm sticking with the principle that sharing data with more individuals or organizations does not increase security, regardless of how good the security of the additional parties is.
dukeblue219 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:29 am Honestly though, I can't figure out for whom *this* would be the last straw.
Think about the meaning of the metaphor a little more then. We talk about the last straw breaking the camel's back instead of the last boulder because even very small increments eventually reach a threshold.
clip651
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by clip651 »

ResearchMed wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:34 pm
Nicolas wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:29 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
+1, I’d never do it.
The ONLY reason we'd get something like that, or allow one for anyone dear to us, would be if there might be a need for that person to shout:

"Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!"

RM
There are better services for that! Some of them will even detect the fall and call for help if you can't (e.g. if someone has stroke, passed out, whatever).
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by TomatoTomahto »

clip651 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:53 pm
ResearchMed wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:34 pm
Nicolas wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:29 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
+1, I’d never do it.
The ONLY reason we'd get something like that, or allow one for anyone dear to us, would be if there might be a need for that person to shout:

"Help! I've fallen and I can't get up!"

RM
There are better services for that! Some of them will even detect the fall and call for help if you can't (e.g. if someone has stroke, passed out, whatever).
I’ve happily been able to tell my Apple Watch “thanks, I’m fine,” a few times, but I will be happy that it’s on my wrist if I’m ever not fine.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Cosmo
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Cosmo »

Kagord wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:13 am Just letting people know, 6/8/21, there's a cool new feature in the newer Echos, Ring stuff...etc that let's you use your neighbor's internet. This should help if your Amazon devices can't hit your router, likewise, you can help your neighbor connect to your internet. There's nothing you need to do to have this functionality, it's auto opt in, and we can all be connected now in a giant mesh network.

More info here:
https://www.ubergizmo.com/2021/05/amazo ... neighbors/

Cheers!

Edit: I'm being subtlely faceitious here with some of the verbiage in this post, my guess is this is either a non starter, delayed, or a quick change to force an opt in, which will probably be met like the Apple opt in just implemented if you want to be tracked
I don't get it. Why would I ever want to connect via my neighbor's Internet? Especially since we all use the same ISP. So if the ISP is down, we're all down. I always thought it would be cool to use your neighbor's Internet (and vice versa) as a fallback option but it would only come in handy if we both had two different ISPs.

Cosmo
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snackdog
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by snackdog »

Cosmo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:08 pm
Kagord wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:13 am Just letting people know, 6/8/21, there's a cool new feature in the newer Echos, Ring stuff...etc that let's you use your neighbor's internet. This should help if your Amazon devices can't hit your router, likewise, you can help your neighbor connect to your internet. There's nothing you need to do to have this functionality, it's auto opt in, and we can all be connected now in a giant mesh network.

More info here:
https://www.ubergizmo.com/2021/05/amazo ... neighbors/

Cheers!

Edit: I'm being subtlely faceitious here with some of the verbiage in this post, my guess is this is either a non starter, delayed, or a quick change to force an opt in, which will probably be met like the Apple opt in just implemented if you want to be tracked
I don't get it. Why would I ever want to connect via my neighbor's Internet? Especially since we all use the same ISP. So if the ISP is down, we're all down. I always thought it would be cool to use your neighbor's Internet (and vice versa) as a fallback option but it would only come in handy if we both had two different ISPs.

Cosmo
I have an irrigation controller near my gate. I would love to put it on Wifi but it is about 700 feet from the house behind a stone wall and signal is not possible. My neighbor lives across the street from the gate, near the road, so I can get his signal strong at the gate. I hope he doesn’t opt out.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by dukeblue219 »

Cosmo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:08 pm I don't get it. Why would I ever want to connect via my neighbor's Internet? Especially since we all use the same ISP. So if the ISP is down, we're all down. I always thought it would be cool to use your neighbor's Internet (and vice versa) as a fallback option but it would only come in handy if we both had two different ISPs.

Cosmo
I think this is being mis-identified in the news as a means to share your immediate neighbor's wifi. It's more about creating a seamless mesh for low-bandwidth uses, ala Apple's Find My network of iPhones. They're integrating it with Tile, for example, so if your wallet has a Tile on it and it falls out of your pocket at the end of the street, the Amazon Sidewalk network can still detect it and provide a means for you to locate it. Or, perhaps, if you have a doorbell/smart lock/light post in a location not well-served by your wifi, you can still use it without rewiring your home wifi.

If anything, it's more like a free low-bandwidth cellular network for your devices than a backup ISP.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Godot »

Nicolas wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:29 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
+1, I’d never do it. Most people don’t care about privacy.
The expectation of privacy seems to be largely a generational phenomenon, i.e., younger people have less of an expectation for it.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Godot wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:25 pm
Nicolas wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:29 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
+1, I’d never do it. Most people don’t care about privacy.
The expectation of privacy seems to be largely a generational phenomenon, i.e., younger people have less of an expectation for it.
True.

Still, I'm 67, and I have never had any expectation of privacy when in public, courtesy of my all-seeing mother. When I was growing up my mother knew what I had been up to before I even returned home. How, I do not know. Can one imagine a group of spooks comprised of mothers?

At any rate I changed the setting in my Alexa APP to disable the Sidewalk service.

I'm sure there will be plenty of experiences shared by those who have left Sidewalk enabled to be able to make an informed decision. I see no value to me, so I will leave it disabled until it offers something I desire.

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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Tubes »

dukeblue219 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:22 pm
Cosmo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:08 pm I don't get it. Why would I ever want to connect via my neighbor's Internet? Especially since we all use the same ISP. So if the ISP is down, we're all down. I always thought it would be cool to use your neighbor's Internet (and vice versa) as a fallback option but it would only come in handy if we both had two different ISPs.

Cosmo
I think this is being mis-identified in the news as a means to share your immediate neighbor's wifi. It's more about creating a seamless mesh for low-bandwidth uses, ala Apple's Find My network of iPhones. They're integrating it with Tile, for example, so if your wallet has a Tile on it and it falls out of your pocket at the end of the street, the Amazon Sidewalk network can still detect it and provide a means for you to locate it. Or, perhaps, if you have a doorbell/smart lock/light post in a location not well-served by your wifi, you can still use it without rewiring your home wifi.

If anything, it's more like a free low-bandwidth cellular network for your devices than a backup ISP.
I wish I took notes, but I was in the car so I couldn't, when a CTO or some marketing person from Amazon was interviewed about this on CNBC about 2 weeks ago. He got a bit ruffled when the interviewer compared it to Apple Find. He wouldn't even say the A word, but was clearly miffed. He then played interference with the interviewer and made it clear that this would be a lot more than just Tile or a Dog Finder. He then went into a marketing mumbo-jumbo spiel. The tone of the responses was enough for me to file away some internal caution flags. They clearly have wide ambitions that are not being shared yet.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by 40 Years' Gatherin's »

Godot wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:25 pm
Nicolas wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:29 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
+1, I’d never do it. Most people don’t care about privacy.
The expectation of privacy seems to be largely a generational phenomenon, i.e., younger people have less of an expectation for it.
The younger generations have been conditioned to give up their privacy. It doesn't even phase them. However, I know a lot of boomers that own all these tracking gadgets and it doesn't seem to bother them either. Personally, I'd prefer Unabomber level anonymity: Off the grid and still doin' fine 8-)
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by helloeveryone »

H-Town wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:34 am
Kagord wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:13 am Just letting people know, 6/8/21, there's a cool new feature in the newer Echos, Ring stuff...etc that let's you use your neighbor's internet. This should help if your Amazon devices can't hit your router, likewise, you can help your neighbor connect to your internet. There's nothing you need to do to have this functionality, it's auto opt in, and we can all be connected now in a giant mesh network.

More info here:
https://www.ubergizmo.com/2021/05/amazo ... neighbors/

Cheers!
Good lord! I'm glad I have no Amazon device in my household. I've been resisting "free" Amazon echo dot devices and it was a good call.
yeah...i had to re-read the original post and the article. I thought it mean amazon figured out a way to automatically let everyone share each other's internet. We thankfully don't have any of the "smart speakers" but we do know that every single iphone and ipad we own (and maybe the macbooks too) are likely listening to us. (unless you choose to turn off the part where it listens for you to say hey siri)
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telemark
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by telemark »

Looking at Amazon's white paper on the subject, the first thing I notice is that there is no mention of wifi. Which makes sense, since my first question was "how could they possibly share wifi without sharing passwords?" Perhaps, as Xfinity does, by controlling the routers, but Amazon doesn't make wifi routers. What the paper does say is
Gateways are Amazon devices, like the Ring Floodlight Cam, that use 900 MHz (LoRa and/or frequency-shift keying (FSK), and/or Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) to provide connection to the Sidewalk network.
Neither of which is wifi except in the most general sense of the word. So your camera on the corner won't be able to use your neighbors' wifi, unless they give you the password, but it might be able to talk to their camera on the corner.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by oldcomputerguy »

dukeblue219 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 11:51 am
Tubes wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 11:47 am I went to the Alexa App to disable it, and there is no setting for Sidewalk. I presume this means my old Echoes don't have this crap, right?

I used to have a Ring (before they were bought), but it failed at 2 years. So no problem there. I put back my old dumb doorbell.
It's under Account Settings.
I couldn't find it on my Alexa app either. I don't think it's there for the older Echo devices (which includes all of mine).
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Tubes
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Tubes »

oldcomputerguy wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:53 pm
dukeblue219 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 11:51 am
Tubes wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 11:47 am I went to the Alexa App to disable it, and there is no setting for Sidewalk. I presume this means my old Echoes don't have this crap, right?

I used to have a Ring (before they were bought), but it failed at 2 years. So no problem there. I put back my old dumb doorbell.
It's under Account Settings.
I couldn't find it on my Alexa app either. I don't think it's there for the older Echo devices (which includes all of mine).
Interestingly I read somewhere (here?) that all "Dot" devices are capable. But I don't think so.

We have one of the very first original Echoes, and a few Dots we got pre-2018 as gifts. I am not getting prompted for Sidewalk on the App.

Sure I have concerns about what Amazon does. And I don't want to participate in Sidewalk. However, we also enjoy the utility of using Alex for specific purposes. I'm not shy about admitting it. It is especially helpful in the kitchen while you have food on your hands during preparation. I tried some of the more complex stuff (if this, then that) and didn't find it useful. We use it in a pretty limited way. I have a friend who is nuts over it, and loves to show off how he can say "Alexa, entire house lighting at 30%." That's not my thing. That's OK.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Taz »

While I will likely opt out, you are not directly using someone's wifi signal and logged into their router. You are not logged into someone else's Echo device. Think of it as a separate 900 mHz (with Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) perhaps added later) encrypted network amongst Echo devices acting as hubs that pass on encrypted info from a device to the Amazon cloud through your router that is then acted upon. Your Echo doesn't know what it is or who it's from just that a device is passing on and receiving small amounts of data - no music, voice, pictures, or video. The device might be a motion detector or contact sensor or Tile/Tag.

Wired has a good article (https://www.wired.com/story/how-amazon-sidewalk-works/).

Here's how you opt out:
Open up your Alexa app
Tap the More button
Head to Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk
Use the slider to disable Sidewalk

As other's have noted, Apple has certain features with their phones which rely on precise location data for certain tracking services. But Apple is pure as the driven snow and would never use your data.

Let's face it, if you use a phone you are being tracked. If you drive a car - particularly in a city, you are being tracked. If you use a credit or debit or ATM card you are being tracked.

Also, unless you've disabled the feature in your AT&T, Xfinity, & other internet wifi routers, other people are using your router to connect to the internet although on a separate SSID.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by rascott »

anon_investor wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:08 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
Ignorance or indifference?

Indifference..... why do I care? I'm not discussing state secrets. I've occasionally reviewed the voice data in the privacy settings.... it's pretty comical what my kids shout at it, but that's about it.

Google has loads more info via using Android, Gmail and search.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by vested1 »

Funny. When I worked in the field for the "phone company" in my twenties as a repairman, I had many customers who were convinced their phones were tapped. Ironically, some of these same customers were on 8 party lines. No amount of reassurance would ease their anxiety, so I usually pulled out an analog test set that I could manipulate to create a high volume variable sound. I would walk around the house waving the test set around as it was oscillating through different frequencies, then let them know they were all clear.

In reality, phone lines could be intercepted in any number of locations in various ways, and privacy was pretty much non-existent. If the government or law enforcement or anyone with basic knowledge of the network gained access you would never know it. I always told customers that if they had anything they didn't want others to hear, don't say it on the phone. Multiply that by the number of possibilities for intrusion today by corporations who capitalize on your browsing history, along with devices that can listen in or view the room remotely, and that advice is even more cogent.

To me it's inconsequential because I have nothing to hide, but getting unsolicited ads for something I don't really need is just irritating.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Info_Hound »

https://support.ring.com/hc/en-us/artic ... f-Sidewalk

I think you have to have one (or more) of the 3 devices listed in order to be included in the Sidewalk option via Ring. Otherwise, Ring does not offer Sidewalk. I personally have none of them so I did not find an opt out option.

Personally I have no need for listening devices and own none. I own my own router so I do control access via the internet. I do my best to keep access to my information or potential access to my system at a bare minimum. The old saying the only secure computer is one that is not connected to the internet probably needs to be updated to reflect the 'leakage' created by today's IoT devices. I agree with an earlier poster that it's likely a generational mindset regarding privacy/tracking/security.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Kagord »

Here's a whitepaper, in essence, Amazon is trying to create a global low bandwidth mesh network in denser human habitations, that Amazon will control who gets to use and who doesn't (see last item 11 in whitepaper below).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer ... 7XHZPRPBGX

Not sure how well this will take off, but if it does, Amazon likely stands to profit at some point by being the gatekeeper here. Thinking about this, I wouldn't be surprised to see some deep discounts on Echo and Ring devices coming soon to your email, to enhance a foothold.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by davibi02 »

rascott wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:54 am Indifference..... why do I care? I'm not discussing state secrets. I've occasionally reviewed the voice data in the privacy settings.... it's pretty comical what my kids shout at it, but that's about it.

Google has loads more info via using Android, Gmail and search.
No judgement, I can see the allure.... but it doesn't take a genius to look a few steps ahead on the road we're travelling. And justifying Amazon's hoard by arguing that you already give more to Google is an odd way of looking at the world. (to me)

Your family is analyzed, cataloged, and digitally segregated based on data you wouldn't believe they have. I don't picture slimy employees ogling the data which seems to be most people's concern. What's most concerning to me is the fact that AI is making decisions that will stick to your children for the rest of their lives.

I won't even bring up governmental access to the data cache in the coming years/decades. Just remember that what is OK now may be a major breach of the collective conscious later.
telemark wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:49 pm Which makes sense, since my first question was "how could they possibly share wifi without sharing passwords?" Perhaps, as Xfinity does, by controlling the routers, but Amazon doesn't make wifi routers. What the paper does say is
Gateways are Amazon devices, like the Ring Floodlight Cam, that use 900 MHz (LoRa and/or frequency-shift keying (FSK), and/or Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) to provide connection to the Sidewalk network.
Neither of which is wifi except in the most general sense of the word.
I wonder if this offers an escape valve for the data on a Pi-Hole'd network. Maybe it can just pass down the chain a ways and exit through someone else's network?
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by btq96r »

rob wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:38 am Something has to be done about these companies data policies.... That is not a sensible auto opt in.... but it's on a LONG list of questionable things that only help the company.
Agree. Taking advantage of folks who don't under how the Internet of Things is really a business intelligence collection effort is part of the operating model. If nothing else, they're monetizing the information about consumers that a few generations ago wasn't easily collected. That's a value most folks don't know they have, and are unwittingly giving up for free.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, NOT USING Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by RickBoglehead »

Since the use is not of the internet, the title of this thread is totally misleading...
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, NOT USING Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by davibi02 »

RickBoglehead wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:02 am Since the use is not of the internet, the title of this thread is totally misleading...
Well, actually it does use 'internet'... but I agree it's a misleading title. Here's the pertinent paragraph from Amazon:
An important role Amazon plays when managing the network, is to ensure no single gateway becomes overburdened with Amazon Sidewalk traffic. The maximum bandwidth of a Sidewalk Bridge to the Sidewalk server is 80Kbps, which is about 1/40th of the bandwidth used to stream a typical high definition video. Today, total monthly data used by Sidewalk enabled-devices, per customer, is capped at 500MB
In most cases I assume your Echo will use your internet. But if for some reason it can't speak out (Pi-Hole for instance) it will speak "across" to another Echo which can then speak out on its behalf.

By the way... 500MB is a HUGE amount of data. I'd love to see what all is being sent to total half a freakin' gig!
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Tubes »

Kagord wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:44 am Here's a whitepaper, in essence, Amazon is trying to create a global low bandwidth mesh network in denser human habitations, that Amazon will control who gets to use and who doesn't (see last item 11 in whitepaper below).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer ... 7XHZPRPBGX

Not sure how well this will take off, but if it does, Amazon likely stands to profit at some point by being the gatekeeper here. Thinking about this, I wouldn't be surprised to see some deep discounts on Echo and Ring devices coming soon to your email, to enhance a foothold.
This is the essence of what bothers me about it.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Supergrover »

Flannelbeard wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:23 pm Ridiculous. I'm glad that I don't own any of these products and never plan to. I've been offered several free Google Home devices over the past few years. No thanks, if it's free, you're the product. Or apparently in most cases these days, even if you pay for it, you're still the product. :annoyed

I am so, so tired of "smart" devices and corporate surveillance in general.

Our Vizio "smart" TV is another big offender. No Vizio, I paid for your product already, you are not getting my personal data. I'd be curious to see what a network with Alexa, Ring, and Google products looks like. I'd imagine it dwarfs what I'm seeing on my network.

I just want to be left alone. That seems increasingly difficult in today's world.
Yes! I agree totally! Thanks for the pi hole info.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, NOT USING Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by vitaflo »

davibi02 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 11:21 am In most cases I assume your Echo will use your internet. But if for some reason it can't speak out (Pi-Hole for instance) it will speak "across" to another Echo which can then speak out on its behalf.
TV's have started doing this too. If you're able to block their access to ads, telemetry, etc, they will look for unsecured wifi to connect to in order to send data to the mothership.

I would expect this kind of thing to become more prevalent in the future.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Starfish »

Xfinity (probably ATT too?) allows others access to your wifi router, it's one of the main benefits they offer. It's true that is a different WIfi network.
This is why I thought tha the Xfinity cell service has a very good value (most of the time you can use xfinity routers).
Prom amazon is only a amazon device to amazon device connection I assume.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Drovor »

Flannelbeard wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:51 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 6:48 am
Flannelbeard wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:23 pm Ridiculous. I'm glad that I don't own any of these products and never plan to. I've been offered several free Google Home devices over the past few years. No thanks, if it's free, you're the product. Or apparently in most cases these days, even if you pay for it, you're still the product. :annoyed

I am so, so tired of "smart" devices and corporate surveillance in general.

I have a DNS sinkhole which simply doesn't forward traffic from known tracking domains either in or out of my network. The top offender on our network is our Peloton bike. Over the past 24 hours it has tried to "phone home" with over 30,000 network requests. The majority are calling back to data tracking and analytics sites and are not allowed to leave my network. As far as I can tell, the bike makes regular calls to about 12 different domains, and only three of them are required for the bike to function (video buffering, software updates). The rest is all crap going to tracking and data harvesting services like Segment and New Relic.

Our Vizio "smart" TV is another big offender. No Vizio, I paid for your product already, you are not getting my personal data. I'd be curious to see what a network with Alexa, Ring, and Google products looks like. I'd imagine it dwarfs what I'm seeing on my network.

I just want to be left alone. That seems increasingly difficult in today's world.
Interesting. Tell me more. :D
The software I use is called Pi-hole, it's an open-source Linux project designed to run off a $35 Raspberry Pi single board computer. You don't have to be a networking wizard to set it up, I'd say just a minor amount of technical knowledge and Google-fu is all that's required. Depending on your router it may be more of a pain to set up if you're using one from your ISP, some seem to lock them down more than others. I have a Verizon Gateway G1100 and all of the settings I needed access to were available.

This guide is mostly updated: https://www.smarthomebeginner.com/pi-hole-setup-guide/

For blocklists, I use the non-crossed lists from here: https://v.firebog.net/hosts/lists.php. My personal preference is to be more aggressive with blocking, and just go in to whitelist any sites that break that I need access to.

Recommend a decent quality SD card, I have a Sandisk Extreme 32GB. The cheapo ones tend to fail after a couple months due to all the log files being written. You could run this off a 2GB SD card probably, but a larger size is better for wear leveling.
Check out log2ram which is supposed to prolong the life of your sd card by not constantly writing to it. It is mentioned in your original link. I have it setup on my pihole and so far so good, from what I can tell. :D

https://github.com/azlux/log2ram
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by quantAndHold »

jebmke wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:41 pm
Flannelbeard wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 12:23 pm Our Vizio "smart" TV is another big offender.
This is another, perhaps minor reason why I am hoping our current TV will never die. We have a 24-inch LG flat-panel which is the perfect size for us. If it dies, I have to deal with a much larger replacement which really wouldn't work well in the space.
To keep a smart TV from phoning home, all you have to do is not connect it to your wifi. The dumb part of the TV will still work just fine.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by BogleMelon »

F150HD wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:50 am if neighbor using your internet starts searching for and doing illegal activities online your ISP will record this as coming from your household.
That was my thought as well! Man! innocent people could do life sentence jail for this!! :shock:
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by jebmke »

quantAndHold wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:05 am To keep a smart TV from phoning home, all you have to do is not connect it to your wifi. The dumb part of the TV will still work just fine.
Yes, that isn’t my major worry. My major worry is having no alternative than a giant screen to replace the 24 inch one.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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telemark
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by telemark »

davibi02 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:46 am
telemark wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:49 pm Which makes sense, since my first question was "how could they possibly share wifi without sharing passwords?" Perhaps, as Xfinity does, by controlling the routers, but Amazon doesn't make wifi routers. What the paper does say is
Gateways are Amazon devices, like the Ring Floodlight Cam, that use 900 MHz (LoRa and/or frequency-shift keying (FSK), and/or Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) to provide connection to the Sidewalk network.
Neither of which is wifi except in the most general sense of the word.
I wonder if this offers an escape valve for the data on a Pi-Hole'd network. Maybe it can just pass down the chain a ways and exit through someone else's network?
My cursory reading of the white paper suggests that it's not a general purpose IP network, but is limited to special cryptographically signed packets specific to the devices involved. But I could have missed something. And of course, once the network is in place Amazon could easily find new uses for it.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Cosmo »

dukeblue219 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:22 pm
Cosmo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:08 pm I don't get it. Why would I ever want to connect via my neighbor's Internet? Especially since we all use the same ISP. So if the ISP is down, we're all down. I always thought it would be cool to use your neighbor's Internet (and vice versa) as a fallback option but it would only come in handy if we both had two different ISPs.

Cosmo
I think this is being mis-identified in the news as a means to share your immediate neighbor's wifi. It's more about creating a seamless mesh for low-bandwidth uses, ala Apple's Find My network of iPhones. They're integrating it with Tile, for example, so if your wallet has a Tile on it and it falls out of your pocket at the end of the street, the Amazon Sidewalk network can still detect it and provide a means for you to locate it. Or, perhaps, if you have a doorbell/smart lock/light post in a location not well-served by your wifi, you can still use it without rewiring your home wifi.

If anything, it's more like a free low-bandwidth cellular network for your devices than a backup ISP.

I still don't get it. Isn't it incumbent upon ourselves to insure that we have a reliable wireless network? If the device is too far away, then you fix so that you can have a reliable connection. The AirTags depend more upon other people's iPhones vs. wireless networks.

Cosmo
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Cosmo »

snackdog wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 2:19 pm
Cosmo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 1:08 pm
Kagord wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 10:13 am Just letting people know, 6/8/21, there's a cool new feature in the newer Echos, Ring stuff...etc that let's you use your neighbor's internet. This should help if your Amazon devices can't hit your router, likewise, you can help your neighbor connect to your internet. There's nothing you need to do to have this functionality, it's auto opt in, and we can all be connected now in a giant mesh network.

More info here:
https://www.ubergizmo.com/2021/05/amazo ... neighbors/

Cheers!

Edit: I'm being subtlely faceitious here with some of the verbiage in this post, my guess is this is either a non starter, delayed, or a quick change to force an opt in, which will probably be met like the Apple opt in just implemented if you want to be tracked
I don't get it. Why would I ever want to connect via my neighbor's Internet? Especially since we all use the same ISP. So if the ISP is down, we're all down. I always thought it would be cool to use your neighbor's Internet (and vice versa) as a fallback option but it would only come in handy if we both had two different ISPs.

Cosmo
I have an irrigation controller near my gate. I would love to put it on Wifi but it is about 700 feet from the house behind a stone wall and signal is not possible. My neighbor lives across the street from the gate, near the road, so I can get his signal strong at the gate. I hope he doesn’t opt out.
This may be just me but why would you ever want your technological set up to be dependent upon your neighbors? If you are unable to get wireless on a portion of your property, swap out the device for a non-wireless one.

Cosmo
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Northern Flicker »

Does a cyberthief parked in a van in the street by your house with one of these devices qualify as your neighbor? This sounds like a great way to be sure they are inside your firewall.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Yooper »

This guy presents an interesting view on it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccrUAp4GQvY - Skynet Went Live June 8! Attn: Alexa Echo and Ring Owners) I got really got interested at 3:20 and then kept getting more and more captivated as the video continued. I'm no tech guy so I can't vouch for the authenticity of his arguments, but even if a small percentage of what he says is true it's enough to give a person pause.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by scifilover »

30west wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:26 am A few years ago Xfinity sent my a new router, no chage. Since cable companies are not known for their generosity i did some digging and found out that i would be sharing my internet connection with any Xfinity customer within range. I sent the router back, but most of my neighbors are participating, based on the signals i pick up while walking around the block. You may be doing this too and not know it.
This is how Comcast (Xfinity) is supporting its cellular phone offering. The Comcast router has a separate channel which does not use your bandwidth allocation, to support a broad WIFI network that its cell service can use. From Comcast's point of view it is perfect. You pay them to rent a modem/router and pay for the electricity to operate it while they use it to provide support for a cellular network over WIFI which they charge people to use. So, I bought my own router (15 month pay back) which does not support this program.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by falconsfan »

dukeblue219 wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:29 am Honestly though, I can't figure out for whom *this* would be the last straw.

Personally I'm happy with the service from my Echo devices and my smart doorbell is indispensable. Others feel creepy having a microphone in the house or camera out front and that's fine, but this particular feature is quite benign relative to everything else, and adds no security vulnerability that wasn't already present with an IoT device.
Some people simply don't want giant companies collecting data on what they say, where they shop and go to church, sexual preference, political views, etc. Google, Zuck, Amazon, Apple etc are all collecting your info 24/7. That smart phone is the portal in most cases. Your info is worth $$ to them and those who want to buy it. Just wait until the auto companies figure out how to use all those vehicle cameras to harvest data from us.

It's not the last straw but there is no reason to allow them to do this.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by JoMoney »

falconsfan wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:34 am...It's not the last straw but there is no reason to allow them to do this.
Well, there is a reason, some people value the functionality more than they value the privacy of their home. Oddly, I've gotten the impression from some people I know that they might relish the idea that their life is being spied on.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by galving »

anon_investor wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:08 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
Ignorance or indifference?
Indifference. There is only the illusion of privacy at this point.
Personality tests use 25 questions to categorize folks with some degree of precision.
Imagine how well the algorithms work after 20+ years of browsing & purchases.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by indexfundfan »

That locked "Wifi to Ethernet connection?" thread got me thinking. Wouldn't sharing your internet via Amazon Sidewalk violate your agreement with your ISP?
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Godot »

galving wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:29 am
anon_investor wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:08 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 11:59 am Anybody who has an Echo is crazy. Why bring something like that into your home? Amazon even admits they listen in.
Well, of course the speaker has to listen in (for the wake word) if the device is to work. Seem like you're belaboring the obvious here. Key point, I think, is generational expectation of privacy. Older people have more of an expectation of privacy than those born in the last 30-40 years or so.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Soon2BXProgrammer »

indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:13 pm That locked "Wifi to Ethernet connection?" thread got me thinking. Wouldn't sharing your internet via Amazon Sidewalk violate your agreement with your ISP?
I agree i think this is interesting that amazon can steal comcasts internet and redistribute it to your neighbor, but you can't.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by indexfundfan »

Soon2BXProgrammer wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:31 pm
indexfundfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:13 pm That locked "Wifi to Ethernet connection?" thread got me thinking. Wouldn't sharing your internet via Amazon Sidewalk violate your agreement with your ISP?
I agree i think this is interesting that amazon can steal comcasts internet and redistribute it to your neighbor, but you can't.
It's interesting, as I search around, that there are not many articles that address this concern. The closest one I can find is the following

Internet service providers, as you might expect, hate this idea. It is possible that your ISP may penalize you in the future for allowing Amazon Sidewalk to operate on your home system. Amazon has intentionally put all its customers in violation of their internet access agreements. An ISP industry source quoted in the New York Times called Amazon’s Sidewalk play “straight up theft.” How will this play out? Who will sue whom?

https://www.natlawreview.com/article/am ... -neighbors

So that's one more reason to disable Amazon Sidewalk.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by hi_there »

In the future, why would we need any kind of cable/ethernet ISP? There are millions of internet receiving/transmitting devices blanketing populated areas, i.e. cell phones. Perhaps if battery life improves, 5G/future bandwidth technology, and fool proof encryption become ubiquitous, then the whole country can be one big mesh network. I can definitely imagine Google or some future entity enabling free internet through this mechanism, in return for the traffic it would drive to their other services.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by falconsfan »

vested1 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:30 am Funny. When I worked in the field for the "phone company" in my twenties as a repairman, I had many customers who were convinced their phones were tapped. Ironically, some of these same customers were on 8 party lines. No amount of reassurance would ease their anxiety, so I usually pulled out an analog test set that I could manipulate to create a high volume variable sound. I would walk around the house waving the test set around as it was oscillating through different frequencies, then let them know they were all clear.

In reality, phone lines could be intercepted in any number of locations in various ways, and privacy was pretty much non-existent. If the government or law enforcement or anyone with basic knowledge of the network gained access you would never know it. I always told customers that if they had anything they didn't want others to hear, don't say it on the phone. Multiply that by the number of possibilities for intrusion today by corporations who capitalize on your browsing history, along with devices that can listen in or view the room remotely, and that advice is even more cogent.

To me it's inconsequential because I have nothing to hide, but getting unsolicited ads for something I don't really need is just irritating.
So if someone came to your door and asked where you work, what music you like, your sexual orientation, your religion, etc., etc. you would give it to them because you 'have nothing to hide' ? The problem is giant tech companies harvesting every bit of info about you that they can. The internet is permanent and tech companies can collect very sensitive facts about you and your family. Anyone have kids on social media?

3 letter agencies yes, can do it all if you are of interest to them for some reason. For me, no thanks. I have nothing to share and will opt out, obfuscate whenever possible.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by Tubes »

falconsfan wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:39 pm
vested1 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:30 am Funny. When I worked in the field for the "phone company" in my twenties as a repairman, I had many customers who were convinced their phones were tapped. Ironically, some of these same customers were on 8 party lines. No amount of reassurance would ease their anxiety, so I usually pulled out an analog test set that I could manipulate to create a high volume variable sound. I would walk around the house waving the test set around as it was oscillating through different frequencies, then let them know they were all clear.

In reality, phone lines could be intercepted in any number of locations in various ways, and privacy was pretty much non-existent. If the government or law enforcement or anyone with basic knowledge of the network gained access you would never know it. I always told customers that if they had anything they didn't want others to hear, don't say it on the phone. Multiply that by the number of possibilities for intrusion today by corporations who capitalize on your browsing history, along with devices that can listen in or view the room remotely, and that advice is even more cogent.

To me it's inconsequential because I have nothing to hide, but getting unsolicited ads for something I don't really need is just irritating.
So if someone came to your door and asked where you work, what music you like, your sexual orientation, your religion, etc., etc. you would give it to them because you 'have nothing to hide' ? The problem is giant tech companies harvesting every bit of info about you that they can. The internet is permanent and tech companies can collect very sensitive facts about you and your family. Anyone have kids on social media?

3 letter agencies yes, can do it all if you are of interest to them for some reason. For me, no thanks. I have nothing to share and will opt out, obfuscate whenever possible.
Even when we obfuscate, we share. For instance, I could guess that you are a "Falcons Fan" and therefore may live in GA, and are more than likely male. Just a start. If I were big data, I would correlate. Then again maybe you are obfuscating and are a nice lady living in Alaska. :)

I'm Tubes not because I'm a plumber, but because one time I like the band The Tubes. Google already knows this so I'm not telling them something new. But now you all know.

We have too much out there. Just another "trustworthy" tech company using bandwidth for their own big data purposes is maddening.
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Re: Amazon Sidewalk, Use Your Neighbor's Internet for Free

Post by roamingzebra »

vested1 wrote: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:30 am To me it's inconsequential because I have nothing to hide, but getting unsolicited ads for something I don't really need is just irritating.
I think the beter slogan, if applicable, is "I have nothing to lose". Depending on what data brokers have on a person, they may be denied a job interview, a good insurance rate, participation on a jury, entry into a specific country, and so on. Long-term, there may be even more Orwellian consequences.

The flip side is that if not much info has been amassed on a person, they may become suspect. ;)
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