When I realized we were saving $200,000+ a year. We avoided lifestyle creep for so long, but after a certain level of income and savings, isn't *some* lifestyle creep the goal?CoastLawyer2030 wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 7:57 amSo when and why did you change from economy to luxury? And in retrospect, do you have any regrets?
Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Given that the average transaction price of a F150 is now $47k, I’m not sure it can be classified as economical. And that’s the discounted price, so the average MSRP of transactions is likely over $50k. Granted, you never said it was economical, only practical.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Never! After 42 years in the auto repair industry, the last 30 owning my own shop, I would never own any luxury vehicle!
Don’t get me wrong, if you need that status symbol by all means go for it. High end cars are huge money pits. I could afford any car out there no problem, but I’ll stick with my Explorer and Chevy PU.
Don’t get me wrong, if you need that status symbol by all means go for it. High end cars are huge money pits. I could afford any car out there no problem, but I’ll stick with my Explorer and Chevy PU.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
These numbers are reported across an entire brand, which makes them worthless for the same reason that discussing the reliability of an entire brand is a completely meaningless exercise. As I pointed out upthread, these average numbers are especially meaningless for vehicle manufacturers that make both relatively simple semi-luxury models as well as much more expensive high performance models. The difference in maintenance and repair costs of a standard 3 series and a Camry is much smaller than the difference between a standard 3 series and an M7.
Likewise, there are other variables involved. If the person purchases a standard 3 series, is he going to keep using runflat tires? This would significantly increase the ownership costs, but is a personal preference, which has nothing to do with vehicle reliability or the maintenance that it requires. Lots of 3 series owners, for instance, switch to regular tires (and buy a spare, which they keep in the trunk), which improves the ride quality and significantly reduces their tire related costs. Yet, if you only focus on these average costs across an entire brand, you wouldn't realize that there are these types of considerations involved.
For the record, as I mentioned above, I am not here to advocate for BMW. I used to really like the brand, but absolutely hate the direction in which it has gone, which has caused a lot of its models to lose the driver engagement that had made them so popular. So, the only reason that I mention BMW is because the OP is considering it.
Last edited by UALflyer on Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
When I was looking at the volvo a few years back the engine didn't scare me. The leaking sun roofs and weird electrical glitches did. But we all have different levels of tolerance for that sort of stuff.RootSki wrote: ↑Fri May 21, 2021 12:22 pm
I participate in the Volvo community over at SwedeSpeed.com. The XC90 does seem to generate problems that the S90 and V90 users don't seem to have. I must disagree with CR about body integrity, as Volvo makes the toughest builds cars, especially the XC90.
I feel bad for the beta testers with 2015-2017 XC90's. By 2018 it seems most of those problems are either resolved, or have a known TJ about it. The XC60 seems to have the least problems out of the whole line up.
I 100% agree with you that they have the best looking fleet currently. They have a great exterior concept that slightly differs from model to model.
The question is always why are you buying a luxury car. For me there are a couple of reasons to think about upgrading
a) Safety - in the old days they used to get all the good tech first (safety cages, VSC, autobreaking, LED headlights,....) but now a days a lot of that stuff moves down market pretty quick
b) Comfort = road noise and seat comfort tend to me much better. You have to decide how much they bother you. For driving 15 mins, who cares. Driving 2 hours/day? It might matter. Again though the nonLuxury cars have gotten a lot better with at least NVH. Not as sold on seat comfort. But that might just be me getting old
c) Performance Obviously depends on what you want. In the old days when you were buying 11s 0-60 cars from mainstream models, it was noticeable. These days most cars performance levels are well above what I need (i.e. 0-60 in 8s is nice. 0-60 in 5s is just overkill...)
With anything you need to decide if you value the improvements enough to pay the costs. Spending money on things that matter to you tends to be a much better way of going than spending money on things that matter to others. I can't tell you if you would enjoy spending an extra 10k on a luxury car that you sit in for 60 mins/days, a trip that lasts 7 days, some crazy TV and sound system that you use for an hour/day for 10 years, some golf clubs and a ton of lessons, a watch, a larger inheritance for your kid to buy a fancy car or any of the zillion other ways you can spend your money
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I again agree. I don't think there's actually an M7, but an 'M-lite' M760i (V12 engine), 'starting at' nearly $160k: why would anyone compare the cost of ownership of such a car to an average cost (~$35k) new car? Obviously the fact one buys that car means they are not focused on minimum cost from A to B. Whereas a 4 cylinder 3 series, of a proven reliable model (eg. various model years of F30 generation recently, AFAIK the current G20 3-serious hasn't gotten there yet) is much closer in ownership cost to average cars. But still higher. You either value the other things you're getting, in your subjective view, or not. Again assuming it's affordable in your overall scheme of things, if it's not then definitely don't.UALflyer wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:58 amThese numbers are reported across an entire brand, which makes them worthless for the same reason that discussing the reliability of an entire brand is a completely meaningless exercise. As I pointed out upthread, these average numbers are especially meaningless for vehicle manufacturers that make both relatively simple semi-luxury models as well as much more expensive high performance models. The difference in maintenance and repair costs of a standard 3 series and a Camry is much smaller than the difference between a standard 3 series and an M7.
Likewise, there are other variables involved. If the person purchases a standard 3 series, is he going to keep using runflat tires? This would significantly increase the ownership costs, but is a personal preference, which has nothing to do with vehicle reliability or the maintenance that it requires. Lots of 3 series owners, for instance, switch to regular tires (and buy a spare, which they keep in the trunk), which improves the ride quality and significantly reduces their tire related costs. Yet, if you only focus on these average costs across an entire brand, you wouldn't realize that there are these types of considerations involved.
For the record, as I mentioned above, I am not here to advocate for BMW. I used to really like the brand, but absolutely hate the direction in which it has gone, which has caused a lot of its models to lose the driver engagement component that had made them so popular. So, the only reason that I mention BMW is because the OP is considering it.
And assuming it's not entirely trivial in your overall financial scheme. This particular thread asked for reasons for transition to/from 'luxury' cars and one answer is: 'overall financial implications became trivial'.
I have liked both BMW's I've had. I liked my 2015 328i (which I did switch to non-runflats plus spare kit) as a nice balance of comfort and some fun around town and eg. mountain pass roads in the West respectively (tuning it up to ~300hp helped with the fun aspect). One of my sons owns it now, no reliability issues in nearly 7 yrs. Other people say it 'lacks driver engagement' (compared to previous 3's): to each their own. My M2 is a much harder core car in ride and driving feel, an acquired taste as a 'daily driver'. But I've acquired the taste, and it's quite fun on extended road trips via remote roads. I don't know if it's *the* most fun car, that can also carry luggage, hiking gear, food from home etc. for two weeks (a number of alternate candidates would be disqualified by that, though some others also could), but quite fun. Whereas I would never get a 7 series; I don't think you can really do both sport and luxury past a certain size car. If I wanted that class of luxury I'd get a Lexus LS w/ zero sport, and have another, sporty car.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
My wife and I are 76/81 retired and our luxury is not to have to bring a car for repair and sit around waiting for it to get repaired. In the past switched from Plymouth Duster to Buick for comfort, now have a Camry and a Malibu. They are comfortable and large enough, and seats are motorized adjustable. We run cars for 110,000 miles and then buy another new one. Why would we need a BMW? I am a German immigrant and still do not need a BMW or Audi. Though my brother has a Mercedes -- that would be nice, but not us.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I buy used Lexus ES350's (keep them until someone invariably totals it. Jersey Drivers...)
They are inexpensive (never paid more than low 20's), reliable, easy and cheap to maintain (basically Camry parts), comfortable, and semi-"luxurious"
They are inexpensive (never paid more than low 20's), reliable, easy and cheap to maintain (basically Camry parts), comfortable, and semi-"luxurious"
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
My taste in vehicles has changed as I have aged. I was a shade-tree mechanic in my younger days, so tended to purchase older cars that were a lot of fun to drive - Audi's, BMW's, and a mix of a few others. Parts were expensive, but I did the mechanical work, so I kept costs in line with non-luxury cars. Crawling under a car to repair a daily driver once you get past 50 is no longer fun, it actually was for me when I was young.
I tend to focus on longer-term reliability and comfort at the same time these days. My previous car was a 2012 Acura TL. My current car is a 2018 Kia Cadenza. The Kia is absolutely loaded with stuff and I intended to drive it until I retire in four years. I purchased both cars as left-over new cars and was able to buy both at steep discounts.
I think higher-end trim packages in mainstream models are near equivalent to full luxury. In fact, the mainstream cars these days are so good, that it puts even greater pressure on the luxury car manufacturers to be over-the-top.
I would say to the OP, I switched from my younger interests to my current interest slowly over time, but the visibile impact was about 50.
I tend to focus on longer-term reliability and comfort at the same time these days. My previous car was a 2012 Acura TL. My current car is a 2018 Kia Cadenza. The Kia is absolutely loaded with stuff and I intended to drive it until I retire in four years. I purchased both cars as left-over new cars and was able to buy both at steep discounts.
I think higher-end trim packages in mainstream models are near equivalent to full luxury. In fact, the mainstream cars these days are so good, that it puts even greater pressure on the luxury car manufacturers to be over-the-top.
I would say to the OP, I switched from my younger interests to my current interest slowly over time, but the visibile impact was about 50.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I agree with your overall post, but wanted to address the above point, which has also been brought up by several other posters.randomguy wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:01 am The question is always why are you buying a luxury car. For me there are a couple of reasons to think about upgrading
...
c) Performance Obviously depends on what you want. In the old days when you were buying 11s 0-60 cars from mainstream models, it was noticeable. These days most cars performance levels are well above what I need (i.e. 0-60 in 8s is nice. 0-60 in 5s is just overkill...)
If people are just looking for good acceleration, there's no need to buy a luxury car. The issue with acceleration is that sticking a powerful engine in a mediocre vehicle does not make it fun or enjoyable to drive. A powerful engine under the hood of a nose heavy front wheel drive vehicle is only going to exacerbate its understeer, which will make the vehicle a lot less enjoyable. This issue doesn't have much to do with luxury (and lots of luxury vehicles are not designed to be powerful), as there are non-luxury vehicles that handle this properly, but better 0-60 numbers don't automatically tell you all that much about the vehicle's driving attributes.
Likewise, there's obviously a lot more to performance and driving enjoyment than the 0-60 numbers. There's engine refinement, steering precision, overall handling, driver engagement, etc... There's a reason that older 3-series BMW's (E46, etc...) used to be so popular among both BMW brand buyers and driving enthusiasts alike. Its engines actually weren't particularly powerful, but the vehicles had a very enjoyable combination of incredibly precise steering, superb driving engagement and handling, but still felt very refined. So, they were a blast on twisty roads while still very nicely absorbing road imperfections in day to day driving.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Good points.JackoC wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:54 amI again agree. I don't think there's actually an M7, but an 'M-lite' M760i (V12 engine), 'starting at' nearly $160k: why would anyone compare the cost of ownership of such a car to an average cost (~$35k) new car? Obviously the fact one buys that car means they are not focused on minimum cost from A to B. Whereas a 4 cylinder 3 series, of a proven reliable model (eg. various model years of F30 generation recently, AFAIK the current G20 3-serious hasn't gotten there yet) is much closer in ownership cost to average cars. But still higher. You either value the other things you're getting, in your subjective view, or not. Again assuming it's affordable in your overall scheme of things, if it's not then definitely don't.UALflyer wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 7:58 amThese numbers are reported across an entire brand, which makes them worthless for the same reason that discussing the reliability of an entire brand is a completely meaningless exercise. As I pointed out upthread, these average numbers are especially meaningless for vehicle manufacturers that make both relatively simple semi-luxury models as well as much more expensive high performance models. The difference in maintenance and repair costs of a standard 3 series and a Camry is much smaller than the difference between a standard 3 series and an M7.
Likewise, there are other variables involved. If the person purchases a standard 3 series, is he going to keep using runflat tires? This would significantly increase the ownership costs, but is a personal preference, which has nothing to do with vehicle reliability or the maintenance that it requires. Lots of 3 series owners, for instance, switch to regular tires (and buy a spare, which they keep in the trunk), which improves the ride quality and significantly reduces their tire related costs. Yet, if you only focus on these average costs across an entire brand, you wouldn't realize that there are these types of considerations involved.
For the record, as I mentioned above, I am not here to advocate for BMW. I used to really like the brand, but absolutely hate the direction in which it has gone, which has caused a lot of its models to lose the driver engagement component that had made them so popular. So, the only reason that I mention BMW is because the OP is considering it.
And assuming it's not entirely trivial in your overall financial scheme. This particular thread asked for reasons for transition to/from 'luxury' cars and one answer is: 'overall financial implications became trivial'.
I have liked both BMW's I've had. I liked my 2015 328i (which I did switch to non-runflats plus spare kit) as a nice balance of comfort and some fun around town and eg. mountain pass roads in the West respectively (tuning it up to ~300hp helped with the fun aspect). One of my sons owns it now, no reliability issues in nearly 7 yrs. Other people say it 'lacks driver engagement' (compared to previous 3's): to each their own. My M2 is a much harder core car in ride and driving feel, an acquired taste as a 'daily driver'. But I've acquired the taste, and it's quite fun on extended road trips via remote roads. I don't know if it's *the* most fun car, that can also carry luggage, hiking gear, food from home etc. for two weeks (a number of alternate candidates would be disqualified by that, though some others also could), but quite fun. Whereas I would never get a 7 series; I don't think you can really do both sport and luxury past a certain size car. If I wanted that class of luxury I'd get a Lexus LS w/ zero sport, and have another, sporty car.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Based on this thread recommendations, I looked up
2018's under 30,000 miles, CPO, are priced between $50 to $60K.
For that price, I wonder if I should buy new. It could be a good deal if it lasts me 20 years.
coming off lease.Lexus LS 500
2018's under 30,000 miles, CPO, are priced between $50 to $60K.
For that price, I wonder if I should buy new. It could be a good deal if it lasts me 20 years.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Funny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
It get's worse in High School, and the S Class is the poor 16 year old's car, who parks in the C lot, and not in the A lot.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I grew up in a different time. Almost no nice cars in my grade school or high school pick up line. Looking back I liked that better.Kagord wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:06 amIt get's worse in High School, and the S Class is the poor 16 year old's car, who parks in the C lot, and not in the A lot.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Before taking an internal transfer last year, I was senior director of a 30-employee department. I walked to work and wife (in tech sales) drove our single (economy) car. Pretty certain every single one of my employees had a nicer car than we shared. I now work across the street where all my colleagues are physicians, who drive vehicles physicians would normally drive (I assume, because the parking lot is full of S-classes and Teslas- I don't actually know who drives what), and we still share a single car (to be fair, I work primarily from home). We did finally order a second car (likely to be in our garage sometime spring '22), but it's another economy car (Ford Maverick hybrid). Hear about this "pressure" all the time, but I've never felt it.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 amFunny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
I love cars, but no matter how much our income and NW go up, the value proposition just has never made sense to me - so many ways I could spend that extra $50k or so that would be better at increasing my QOL. We're only at $275-$375k (with bonuses and RSUs) and ~$1.6M NW, so maybe in time?
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I love well designed high end luxury cars but do not like being noticed driving a super expensive car. As a result we end up with cars like a Highlander limited model - has tons of nice options but blends right in at Costco and the grocery store. Although it is not just luxury cars that cost a lot these days. Our daughter's boy friend drives an $85k pickup truck.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Interesting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 amFunny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
We moved to a middle ground, not luxury. For example, years ago a Datsun, today a 4-Runner or Highlander in a higher model tier, and a Honda Odyssey rather than a lesser minivan. The concept of luxury differs, and brand is not important. The Highlander, for example, has all the bells and whistles of a Lexus, Audi, etc., just not the cachet. Similar to those who view a watch as something to keep time versus a statement of luxury. That is not meant to be a criticism of any sort, just that adding a dishwasher to a home represented luxury for some of us older folks growing up.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
It has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:03 amInteresting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 amFunny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Even more interesting, with our insatiable appetites that go ridiculously beyond mere subsistence, is that we will never escape the problem of the equitable distribution of the physical and cultural goods which provide for the preservation and fulfillment of human life. Paraphrasing Mr. Niebuhr here, I'm not smart enough to come up this myself.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:03 amInteresting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 amFunny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
AOK then this is the important information....investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:24 amIt has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:03 amInteresting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 amFunny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
"On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match."
And this is irrelevant...
"She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan."
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
It’s not irrelevant at all. The direct report in question earns far, far less yet has chosen to spend far, far more on a car. Hence the contradiction I was highlighting.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:33 amAOK then this is the important information....investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:24 amIt has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:03 amInteresting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 amFunny you say that.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
"On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match."
And this is irrelevant...
"She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan."
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Interesting - I have had a number of direct reports over the years and have never used their compensation/purchase ratios for my personal decisions.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:37 amIt’s not irrelevant at all. The direct report in question earns far, far less yet has chosen to spend far, far more on a car. Hence the contradiction I was highlighting.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:33 amAOK then this is the important information....investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:24 amIt has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:03 amInteresting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 am
Funny you say that.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
"On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match."
And this is irrelevant...
"She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan."
Additionally I would typically not know what their family or personal financial situation was in general , he/she could have larger or smaller reserves.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
still have my 7 year old economy car. going to keep doing the usual maintenance and hopefully get as much as i can out of it until ICE cars are banned
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
We changed our car buying habits at about the same income level... we went from buying used vehicles (with 60-100k miles) to a new honda fit and then later a new honda accord. I am now waiting to buy my 3rd new vehicle (a Ford Maverick) which will be the first new vehicle I'm purchasing when I didn't need a one.CoastLawyer2030 wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 7:57 am So I started a different car buying thread, but wanted to have a broader discussion about cars in general.
I am a subscriber to Millionaire Next Door and would definitely categorize myself as one of those people who has opted for economy cars and "silent wealth." In almost 20 years of driving, my three cars include a Ford Focus, a Honda CR-V, and now a Toyota Camry.
But as I'm looking for a newer car right now, it's dawned on me that used luxury cars are about in the same ballpark as the nicer used economy cars. In fact, used Toyota Camry's with the SE trim (not even the nicest XLE) are going for more than used BMW 3 series with the same mileage.
My Millionaire Next Door brain is ringing off a bunch of sirens -- "Lifestyle inflation!" "People will think you're rich!"
But honestly I'm at the point where I guess I just don't really care. My wife and I make about $160-170k a year and spend about $65-75k. I am having a great year this year and we might hit $200k. Buying a used BMW 3 series would not really do anything in the big picture.
I guess the point of this thread is that I feel like I am going through the shift from economy car to luxury car mindset in real time. From my searching of posts on here, many Bogleheads have gone through the same change.
So when and why did you change from economy to luxury? And in retrospect, do you have any regrets?
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
You know, I’m sorry I even shared this. Forget I said anything at all.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:53 amInteresting - I have had a number of direct reports over the years and have never used their compensation/purchase ratios for my personal decisions.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:37 amIt’s not irrelevant at all. The direct report in question earns far, far less yet has chosen to spend far, far more on a car. Hence the contradiction I was highlighting.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:33 amAOK then this is the important information....investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:24 amIt has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.
"On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match."
And this is irrelevant...
"She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan."
Additionally I would typically not know what their family or personal financial situation was in general , he/she could have larger or smaller reserves.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
You don't really know if a person can afford something or not just based on current income of a job they are currently working at.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:37 amIt’s not irrelevant at all. The direct report in question earns far, far less yet has chosen to spend far, far more on a car. Hence the contradiction I was highlighting.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:33 amAOK then this is the important information....investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:24 amIt has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:03 amInteresting that folks purchase a car/truck based on what others think.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:04 am
Funny you say that.
My wife has an internal struggle going on right now. On the one hand, she’s quite frugal and doesn’t like spending on herself.
On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match. She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan.
I’m not sure how this plays out yet.
"On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match."
And this is irrelevant...
"She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan."
This person might receive $1mm a year in Alimony, who knows. She may also have substantial assets, perhaps from a divorce settlement, inheritance, or dogecoin investment.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I'm thinking of switching from "luxury" to economy. I paid $25K for a gently used 2007 Lexus ES in 2010. The current prices of gently used ones have crossed over what I am willing to pay for a car. The prices of gently used Camry's are on the edge of what I am willing to pay for a car.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
OP,
Never!
I buy car based on my needs and wants. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's concept of "luxury".
KlangFool
Never!
I buy car based on my needs and wants. It has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's concept of "luxury".
KlangFool
30% VWENX | 16% VFWAX/VTIAX | 14.5% VTSAX | 19.5% VBTLX | 10% VSIAX/VTMSX/VSMAX | 10% VSIGX| 30% Wellington 50% 3-funds 20% Mini-Larry
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Local high school is free assigned lottery parking places except some nice spots which fund raised auctioned ($30k). Whereas local elementary school is soccer mom rides (90% Range Rover and large German SUV’s), high school tends to cheaper small SUV’s (X1, X3’s) and Tesla. Nobody wants to drive their parent’s car and kids want green cars.Kagord wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:06 amIt get's worse in High School, and the S Class is the poor 16 year old's car, who parks in the C lot, and not in the A lot.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Have never bought a luxury car in my 73 years, so can't give a reason for switching.
- jabberwockOG
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
hoofaman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:16 amYou don't really know if a person can afford something or not just based on current income of a job they are currently working at.investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:37 amIt’s not irrelevant at all. The direct report in question earns far, far less yet has chosen to spend far, far more on a car. Hence the contradiction I was highlighting.smitcat wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:33 amAOK then this is the important information....investingdad wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:24 amIt has nothing to do with that. For my wife it’s a question of why she’s denying herself something she can easily afford when others are clearly not denying themselves and they are earning less.
"On the other, she was promoted to a senior Director position last year with compensation package to match."
And this is irrelevant...
"She has taken keen notice of the fact that she’s driving a six year old Murano while her recent direct report new hire has an AMG version of a Benz sedan."
This person might receive $1mm a year in Alimony, who knows. She may also have substantial assets, perhaps from a divorce settlement, inheritance, or dogecoin investment.
People's cars are not a reliable indicator of income or wealth. Insecurity and the need to impress drive way too many to seriously over spend on expensive cars and trucks to the point where the endless expensive debt they carry permanently damages their financial future. It's usually all hat and no cattle for the average American consumer. Then later in life it may be "Welcome to Walmart!" time.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
My purchase pattern is like a bell curve. Went from used Toyota Corolla>used Acura Integra>used Lexus ES>new Toyota Corolla. People looked at me differently when I told them I drove a Lexus. That was in my 30's, I'm totally over that.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
In 2011 I purchased a 12 year old 1999 BMW 323i manual that I still drive today, it cost $6,000 when I bought it with 40k miles and the market value is probably still about the same, now with 80k miles. So far it's just needed standard maintenance items and fluids, I spend maybe $500 a year on average on maintenance. Meanwhile, my neighbor leases/buys a new Toyota car every 3 years, which are much nicer then my car from a features and comfort perspective, but I personally like my car more.
Which one of us drives a luxury car? And who do you think has a higher total cost of ownership?
Which one of us drives a luxury car? And who do you think has a higher total cost of ownership?
My posts are for entertainment purposes only.
- illumination
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
My big thing on why I started buying luxury cars was the quiet cabin. I can't stand a noisy car ride, I find it really fatiguing on long rides. It seems up until recently, many non-luxury cars felt like "tin cans" with little to no sound deadening. That is something though "average" cars now do a much better job on.
I also HATE cloth seats, and prefer leather. Most luxury cars come standard with leather, on non-luxury makes, leather can be hard to find and usually it's so loaded at that point that you might as well just buy a luxury make as the price difference is so close. I actually would prefer old school vinyl to cloth being standard.
I'm really loyal to Lexus, I've owned 5 and they've all been insanely reliable. Several of those I took to over 120k miles. My experience with European luxury cars like Mercedes has been poor.
I also HATE cloth seats, and prefer leather. Most luxury cars come standard with leather, on non-luxury makes, leather can be hard to find and usually it's so loaded at that point that you might as well just buy a luxury make as the price difference is so close. I actually would prefer old school vinyl to cloth being standard.
I'm really loyal to Lexus, I've owned 5 and they've all been insanely reliable. Several of those I took to over 120k miles. My experience with European luxury cars like Mercedes has been poor.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I walk by our local high school parking lot every single morning. There are no "cheaper" BMW SUVs, it's all older Hyundais and Nissan versas. Different atmosphere here, I guess.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:57 amLocal high school is free assigned lottery parking places except some nice spots which fund raised auctioned ($30k). Whereas local elementary school is soccer mom rides (90% Range Rover and large German SUV’s), high school tends to cheaper small SUV’s (X1, X3’s) and Tesla. Nobody wants to drive their parent’s car and kids want green cars.Kagord wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:06 amIt get's worse in High School, and the S Class is the poor 16 year old's car, who parks in the C lot, and not in the A lot.donaldc wrote: ↑Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 am My wife switched because she didn’t want look poor in the elementary school pick up line. So she traded her Acura for Mercedes S-class. She leases a BMW every 3 years now.
Conforming is very powerful motivation.
Talked to my new neighbor last week. They also remarked about the nice cars in the school line including a Bugatti. They drive a Tesla.
When I was in high school 20yrs ago almost none of my friends had cars at all. I'm one of 7 kids, none of us ever had a car.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Alternatively, some Leases works best (sort of - if you ar H’ bent on doing it anyway), especially if your company (self, or employer) pays for it.
** A lease rarely makes sense unless you just want to enjoy a newer/nicer/luxury car - on highly discounted leases!
You may get some sense of current (or past) lease deals here, lots of calculators, lots of regional/National possible leases/deals: https://forum.leasehackr.com/c/deals-and-tips
Leases ain’t cheap - unless, it’s heavily discounted lease, AND someone else expenses it (your own company, or employer etc).
As for full-warranty, less-hassle of especially German/Italian makes., a highly discounted deal May make sense - with zero down and not-so-high monthly payments for miles you drive..
You prolly don’t have to buy a German/Italian makes - for various risks (ROI, risk of low resale, low residual, potential repairs in count as well as cash - outside of warranty period, high maintenance cost, high wear and tear, high insurance, higher cost premium gas, and not-so-friendly/helpful dealerships — who mostly screws you for unnecessary repairs and out-of-warranty and items, and biggest of all - risk or unknown downtime, longer parts availability due to supply-chain delays, and very high part/labor costs. Let this car/lease not-necessarily be the primary/only-car you have — if you do, you could regret due to potentially higher-than-average frequent repair costs, electronic gremlins! Works out great if you are dating someone or someone’s kid in dealership — otherwise, it could be drag on your job/productivity; your boss may give paltry raise thinking he/she was paying you too much and you was doing good already, Neighbors/friends envy if you are in modest neighborhood etc..). You will most likely enjoy driving that vehicle (while still under factory warranty) though !!
Or go buy a Lexus (on deal), and run for 15-20 some years (it’s almost a generation long!) or till it’s wheels fall off — and call it a good life !!
** A lease rarely makes sense unless you just want to enjoy a newer/nicer/luxury car - on highly discounted leases!
You may get some sense of current (or past) lease deals here, lots of calculators, lots of regional/National possible leases/deals: https://forum.leasehackr.com/c/deals-and-tips
Leases ain’t cheap - unless, it’s heavily discounted lease, AND someone else expenses it (your own company, or employer etc).
As for full-warranty, less-hassle of especially German/Italian makes., a highly discounted deal May make sense - with zero down and not-so-high monthly payments for miles you drive..
You prolly don’t have to buy a German/Italian makes - for various risks (ROI, risk of low resale, low residual, potential repairs in count as well as cash - outside of warranty period, high maintenance cost, high wear and tear, high insurance, higher cost premium gas, and not-so-friendly/helpful dealerships — who mostly screws you for unnecessary repairs and out-of-warranty and items, and biggest of all - risk or unknown downtime, longer parts availability due to supply-chain delays, and very high part/labor costs. Let this car/lease not-necessarily be the primary/only-car you have — if you do, you could regret due to potentially higher-than-average frequent repair costs, electronic gremlins! Works out great if you are dating someone or someone’s kid in dealership — otherwise, it could be drag on your job/productivity; your boss may give paltry raise thinking he/she was paying you too much and you was doing good already, Neighbors/friends envy if you are in modest neighborhood etc..). You will most likely enjoy driving that vehicle (while still under factory warranty) though !!
Or go buy a Lexus (on deal), and run for 15-20 some years (it’s almost a generation long!) or till it’s wheels fall off — and call it a good life !!
- White Coat Investor
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
When we could afford to pay cash for luxury without affecting our financial goals. Keep in mind luxury for us was a brand new Toyota Sequoia with the middle level of trim though. We're not exactly car people.CoastLawyer2030 wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 7:57 am So I started a different car buying thread, but wanted to have a broader discussion about cars in general.
I am a subscriber to Millionaire Next Door and would definitely categorize myself as one of those people who has opted for economy cars and "silent wealth." In almost 20 years of driving, my three cars include a Ford Focus, a Honda CR-V, and now a Toyota Camry.
But as I'm looking for a newer car right now, it's dawned on me that used luxury cars are about in the same ballpark as the nicer used economy cars. In fact, used Toyota Camry's with the SE trim (not even the nicest XLE) are going for more than used BMW 3 series with the same mileage.
My Millionaire Next Door brain is ringing off a bunch of sirens -- "Lifestyle inflation!" "People will think you're rich!"
But honestly I'm at the point where I guess I just don't really care. My wife and I make about $160-170k a year and spend about $65-75k. I am having a great year this year and we might hit $200k. Buying a used BMW 3 series would not really do anything in the big picture.
I guess the point of this thread is that I feel like I am going through the shift from economy car to luxury car mindset in real time. From my searching of posts on here, many Bogleheads have gone through the same change.
So when and why did you change from economy to luxury? And in retrospect, do you have any regrets?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy |
4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course
- bertilak
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Haven't switched yet but will on my next.
I see Practicality as part of Luxury. Many of the luxury features are there to improve practicality, especially the comfort, convenience, and safety aspects.
I see Practicality as part of Luxury. Many of the luxury features are there to improve practicality, especially the comfort, convenience, and safety aspects.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
The BH proletariat only approves a certain lifestyle. A minimum level of suffering is required. Enjoying one's wealth isn't publically allowed. I'm all for low cost index funds. The rest of this MMM attitude is beyond me. A member once told me that Jack Bogle flipped new Volvos every few years. He would be abused if he was to post that anonymously here.
- TrueBlueNYC
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
I drove Honda's all my life, but in a brief moment of insanity, bought a 2-year old Volkswagon GTI with about 30,000 miles on it. During the next year and a half, I quickly became on a first name basis with the local VW/BMW/Audi shop in town. It was a really fun car to drive, but it had so many ticky tack problems, way more than the family Honda Odyssey with more than twice the miles. Finally, I waved the white flag and sold it at a loss (to the dealer) and went back to another Honda.
The Honda is not an exciting car to drive, but it's also exciting to never have to take the car into the shop and spend decent chunks of change for repairs and maintenance.
The Honda is not an exciting car to drive, but it's also exciting to never have to take the car into the shop and spend decent chunks of change for repairs and maintenance.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
switched back to economy / practicality when i realized it's pretty much a waste of money (to me anyway)
much prefer to have money than 'look' like i have money
ymmv
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much prefer to have money than 'look' like i have money
ymmv
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Probably not recommended but I crossed the threshold to luxury in my early 20’s when my income was decent but not great. At the time I had a very nice F-150. From there I’ve had BMWs, Audi’s and other cars that I would consider both luxurious and expensive. I got them because I met my financial goals and had no interest in an econobox. I don’t really see a car as something that gets me from point A to point B. This was especially true when I commuted 150 miles a day for several years. When you are in your car that long, you appreciate a few luxuries. As stated in many other threads, you have to decide what’s important to you. Some pay a premium for homes in great locations, some value luxurious vacations while others value spending a fortune other things. For some people, they can have just about anything they, but not everything they want. I’ve decided cars are important to me and my garage is a reflection of that decision. If your wife wants a luxurious car and you can afford it, why not?
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Never have, probably never will.
Why be a target for criminals?
Why make others resentful?
What's in it for you?
Why be a target for criminals?
Why make others resentful?
What's in it for you?
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
We had European sedans and a wagon until about 6 years ago. I guess they would be considered luxury by some. We’d still be driving the wagon if it didn’t have a nasty habit of spontaneously shutting down. All bought used, all well maintained. No regrets.
There’s a reasonable middle ground here. If you need to have a current year s class, M5 or even a Suburban, I can’t help you. But there’s lots of ways to enjoy a nice car that keeps the annual cost to operate quite reasonable.
There’s a reasonable middle ground here. If you need to have a current year s class, M5 or even a Suburban, I can’t help you. But there’s lots of ways to enjoy a nice car that keeps the annual cost to operate quite reasonable.
Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
Why? Because I have reached the stage of life when I will easily outlive my money. And it will be a lot of fun
When? Model S next month if Elon's delivery dates are to believed.
When? Model S next month if Elon's delivery dates are to believed.
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Re: Cars -- When and Why Did You Switch from Economy/Practicality to Luxury?
We live on a dirt road with a 17% grade to our driveway. DW's 2014 Subaru Forester Turbo always struggled to get to the top so we decided on a new Acura RDX in 2017. The OTD price was $52,000 so we considered it a sort-of-luxury car. Nice car but nothing fancy; I always had trouble getting in and out because of the sloped windshield plus it had too many beep-beep-beep warning signals. This spring the RDX was totaled when the adaptive cruise control failed to brake in time. Driver error? Radar/cruise control malfunction? No answer to that. The insurance company gave us back $25,000. For $42,000 OTD I got a 2021 Mazda CX-5 Turbo that drives and rides better than the Acura RDX. The interior is luxurious, says DW, and even has real wood as accents on the doors and dashboard. It's almost luxury without paying for it.
Myself, I have a 2021 midsize GMC pickup. A step up from my Nissan Frontier but a few steps below the loaded Ford F-150s that everyone that thinks it matters drives around here. Try parking it! (The CX-5 has a 360 degree screen view that helps the driver put the car between the white lines! You can get that, too, on your F-150.)
Myself, I have a 2021 midsize GMC pickup. A step up from my Nissan Frontier but a few steps below the loaded Ford F-150s that everyone that thinks it matters drives around here. Try parking it! (The CX-5 has a 360 degree screen view that helps the driver put the car between the white lines! You can get that, too, on your F-150.)