Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

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miamivice
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Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by miamivice »

I may have an opportunity to pursue a PhD in the field that I have chosen as my career. My company will fund 100% of the cost of the PhD program, however, I would be responsible for paying income tax on the amount that they pay beyond $5000 per year. (Pursuing a PhD will make me eligible for a new career, so the cost that the company pays toward the degree is considered a taxable benefit). My quick estimation is that the company will pay about $75,000 for the degree and I will pay about $20,000 in income taxes.

I don't need a PhD. I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement. I have not seen that a PhD will open any doors that are currently closed to me.

I would very much like a PhD though. I enjoy attending conferences where everyone else has completed their PhD, and I feel a bit left out. I would enjoy presenting my dissertation research at a conference and I am interested in getting published. At this point of my career, I am more interested in exploring some avenues that I have not explored yet (like conference presentations and getting published) and perhaps a little less interested in strictly financial opportunities (like working overtime).

I guess it's really a personal choice decision.....

I would appreciate any folks comments one way or another.

P.S. I have completed two masters degrees in my field of choice, and am expecting that I will graduate with my third masters in the same general field next summer.
dan7800
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by dan7800 »

A PhD here.

How old are you? If you're young with no family, then I'd say why the heck not.

A PhD is a marathon and will make the typical Master's degree look easy. This is not to belittle a masters, but TYPICALLY a PHD is immensely time consuming if you're going to do it well.

A PhD can be helpful down the road if you want to change jobs, but if you're looking at the financial implications it's likely not for you.

I typically try to dissuade people from getting a PhD. The ones who start and finish at the ones who want it, no matter what.
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miamivice
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by miamivice »

dan7800 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:47 pm A PhD here.

How old are you? If you're young with no family, then I'd say why the heck not.

A PhD is a marathon and will make the typical Master's degree look easy. This is not to belittle a masters, but TYPICALLY a PHD is immensely time consuming if you're going to do it well.

A PhD can be helpful down the road if you want to change jobs, but if you're looking at the financial implications it's likely not for you.

I typically try to dissuade people from getting a PhD. The ones who start and finish at the ones who want it, no matter what.
Forget to put my age in the first post. I am about 40 years of age. Figure a couple years higher since people never round up when talking about their age. I am definitely beyond the typical age for a PhD, and I understand that it might be time intense.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by willthrill81 »

Notwithstanding that I have a Ph.D. myself, I urge you to think carefully about this. When you're so tired of reading the details of the 25th peer-reviewed journal article that week that you want to vomit, I question where 'feeling a bit left out' at conferences is going to be enough to keep you motivated. For me, getting my Ph.D. in my field meant a higher and much more stable income combined with the means to have a family life that few breadwinners today enjoy anymore. The Ph.D. was a means to an end. That said, I might be the odd man out here; a great many of those I know with the same Ph.D. attained theirs because their career very literally is their life, and they've sacrificed virtually all other aspects of their life for it.

I have often told those who are considering a Ph.D. that it's a multi-year marathon, not a sprint. It's not for the faint of heart or for those who aren't absolutely positive that they want to do it, even after they've been appropriately warned of the hardships involved. If you aren't sure, then I doubt that it will be in your best interests to pursue a Ph.D.

Edit: dan7800's comments is highly correlated with mine. That was not my intention at all and is indicative of interrater reliability.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by smectym »

My dad pursued a PhD in his 40s, that he didn’t need in order to complete his distinguished career, and it was one of the greatest satisfactions of his life.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by stan1 »

What are the time commitments and structure of the program? Would you do this while fully employed? Would your employer also give you paid time to work on the degree or would all work be done after your regular "40 hours'? Is the program at a local university, or is it a hybrid in-residence/remote program, or is it entirely online? Those answers could be very important and could make a big difference in how the university and other students approach the program.

In general taking advantage of an employer provided benefit is great, but I would not do it unless you really wanted the degree and were eager to earn it.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by nyx328 »

PhD here too and I’ll echo everything that has already been said and add this — if you aren’t 100% committed to doing it, you won’t get through it. A PhD in a legitimate discipline is miserable, and it’s not just the coursework. It’s the academic politics, the way you’re treated as a “student” despite that fact that you’re likely working at the same level as a professor, the fact that you’re delaying income (not as big a deal in your case) etc. In fact, getting through a PhD is less about getting through the work than it is dealing with the mental stress of it.

This is not to dissuade you. Doing a PhD was the single hardest, but the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done. It teaches you a whole lot about life and also about yourself. If it’s something you really want to do, you should do it. But doing it is really just about how much BS you can put up with over a 5+ year period.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by stan1 »

I think some are already assuming a "traditional" Ph. D. where you would go to a university for 4-5 years full time. If that's not the situation you probably should explain a little more (and be prepared for some feedback if it is an "online" program :)
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Trader Joe »

miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:44 pm I may have an opportunity to pursue a PhD in the field that I have chosen as my career. My company will fund 100% of the cost of the PhD program, however, I would be responsible for paying income tax on the amount that they pay beyond $5000 per year. (Pursuing a PhD will make me eligible for a new career, so the cost that the company pays toward the degree is considered a taxable benefit). My quick estimation is that the company will pay about $75,000 for the degree and I will pay about $20,000 in income taxes.

I don't need a PhD. I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement. I have not seen that a PhD will open any doors that are currently closed to me.

I would very much like a PhD though. I enjoy attending conferences where everyone else has completed their PhD, and I feel a bit left out. I would enjoy presenting my dissertation research at a conference and I am interested in getting published. At this point of my career, I am more interested in exploring some avenues that I have not explored yet (like conference presentations and getting published) and perhaps a little less interested in strictly financial opportunities (like working overtime).

I guess it's really a personal choice decision.....

I would appreciate any folks comments one way or another.

P.S. I have completed two masters degrees in my field of choice, and am expecting that I will graduate with my third masters in the same general field next summer.
If you fail do you have to repay your company?
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miamivice
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by miamivice »

stan1 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:04 pm I think some are already assuming a "traditional" Ph. D. where you would go to a university for 4-5 years full time. If that's not the situation you probably should explain a little more (and be prepared for some feedback if it is an "online" program :)
Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD. The options are slim pickings but better today than 5 years ago. Work/life balance would be very interesting, as I would be pursuing my PhD during evenings and weekends while working at my day job during the day. I am more motivated than the average person (hence 3 masters degrees to date) and think that it's at least worth looking into at this point. Can't say for sure that I am ready to pull the trigger, but ready to make some inquiries and see what options are available.
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miamivice
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by miamivice »

Trader Joe wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:05 pm
miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:44 pm I may have an opportunity to pursue a PhD in the field that I have chosen as my career. My company will fund 100% of the cost of the PhD program, however, I would be responsible for paying income tax on the amount that they pay beyond $5000 per year. (Pursuing a PhD will make me eligible for a new career, so the cost that the company pays toward the degree is considered a taxable benefit). My quick estimation is that the company will pay about $75,000 for the degree and I will pay about $20,000 in income taxes.

I don't need a PhD. I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement. I have not seen that a PhD will open any doors that are currently closed to me.

I would very much like a PhD though. I enjoy attending conferences where everyone else has completed their PhD, and I feel a bit left out. I would enjoy presenting my dissertation research at a conference and I am interested in getting published. At this point of my career, I am more interested in exploring some avenues that I have not explored yet (like conference presentations and getting published) and perhaps a little less interested in strictly financial opportunities (like working overtime).

I guess it's really a personal choice decision.....

I would appreciate any folks comments one way or another.

P.S. I have completed two masters degrees in my field of choice, and am expecting that I will graduate with my third masters in the same general field next summer.
If you fail do you have to repay your company?
No. I have to repay my company for any individual course that I fail, but otherwise no.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Big Dog »

I'm always of the opinion that one should not enroll in a PhD program unless it is fully funded. A doctoral program is generally full time, so is your employer going to pay you to just take off, or are you expecting to try this on a part-time basis? (not sure its doable part-time)

Will you stay at your same company once you complete the degree, so you expect that they will pay you to 'attend conferences'?
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by nyx328 »

Big Dog wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:08 pm I'm always of the opinion that one should not enroll in a PhD program unless it is fully funded. A doctoral program is generally full time, so is your employer going to pay you to just take off, or are you expecting to try this on a part-time basis? (not sure its doable part-time)

Will you stay at your same company once you complete the degree, so you expect that they will pay you to 'attend conferences'?
100% right — I’m a professor now, and the first thing I tell my students when they want to talk to me about grad school is “if it’s not fully funded, don’t go”
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by calmaniac »

miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:44 pm I don't need a PhD. I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement. I have not seen that a PhD will open any doors that are currently closed to me.
I'm not feeling any passion here, just it would be nice to have some special letters after your name. Not that every PhD has to be driven by passion, but the flip side is that getting a PhD so one can continue in a "dull, repetitive job that pays well" sounds like a drag. My view of financial independence is to live your life by intention and what is important to you, not being driven by keeping up with the Joneses (whether that be graduate degrees or fancy cars).

Quote edited for brevity
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by anoop »

If you think it will bring you satisfaction, it's worth it. It can also open up the chance to become adjunct faculty if that is of interest. I have seen a few folks get it over 5-7 years with 2 of those being full time. In many of those cases, what they worked on at school was part of their job at work (these are folks that were part of architecture/advanced development teams).

If possible, find a professor at the university that is in your desired field and that you can see yourself working with and talk to them about whether they have had students that completed it part time. Progress can be slow and erratic so you need someone that can keep you motivated. Also schools have different requirements at each level -- qualifier exam, prelim, final defense. The requirements can vary by department even within the same school.

Did any of your master's degrees have a thesis option? If so, you have an idea of what is involved. If you haven't had a thesis option then a PhD is going to be a very different experience.

Finally, do you have anyone at your company that has done this before?
Last edited by anoop on Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Normchad »

I wouldn’t do it. You’re sacrificing 5 very important years of your career. It will be a permanent set back for you in terms of lifetime compensation.....

Also, I’ve heard to only ever get a PhD that’s fully funded. (By The university). Part of the reason is that it shows they are committed to you. They feel strongly enough in you and your success to pay for it. If the school isn’t willing to do that, then walk away.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by willthrill81 »

miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:07 pm Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD.
I would be especially cautious with getting a Ph.D. totally online. A major part of the learning that occurs is outside of the 'normal' environment. It comes from casual (and some not casual) conversations with your professors, peers, those at other institutions, etc.

Millions of us have been in a grand experiment for the last ~12 months, and the verdict is in: online learning is not the same as in-person learning. Some things can be learned sufficiently or even preferentially online, but this is far from universal. And if the student isn't very motivated in a given topic, online learning can be an absolute train wreck.

And on the topic of needing to be absolutely committed to a good doctoral program to succeed, I think that about 50% of those who start doctoral programs, most of whom should know about the difficulties, still wash out. And sadly, many of these don't do so until they are years into their program, wasting lots of time and money.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by willthrill81 »

calmaniac wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:14 pmNot that every PhD has to be driven by passion, but the flip side is that getting a PhD so one can continue in a "dull, repetitive job that pays well" sounds like a drag.
And oftentimes, jobs that require a Ph.D. can be dull and repetitive. Ask me how I know. :wink:
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by rob »

Let me ask the other way around... When would you do it if not when its fully funded by employer? Seems like a great chance to do in a financially sensible method. If the other factors still say no... then I would consider never doing it. Depends on industry whether it pays off or not....
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by ScaledWheel »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:30 pm
miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:07 pm Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD.
I would be especially cautious with getting a Ph.D. totally online. A major part of the learning that occurs is outside of the 'normal' environment. It comes from casual (and some not casual) conversations with your professors, peers, those at other institutions, etc.

Millions of us have been in a grand experiment for the last ~12 months, and the verdict is in: online learning is not the same as in-person learning. Some things can be learned sufficiently or even preferentially online, but this is far from universal. And if the student isn't very motivated in a given topic, online learning can be an absolute train wreck.

And on the topic of needing to be absolutely committed to a good doctoral program to succeed, I think that about 50% of those who start doctoral programs, most of whom should know about the difficulties, still wash out. And sadly, many of these don't do so until they are years into their program, wasting lots of time and money.
At the risk of being a snob, are there any good programs that are online? Also the fact that it is not fully paid is raising red flags for me. At some level, the fact that your PI is paying for your education and stipend means they are invested in your growth as a researcher. I wonder if that happens as much if they aren’t having to pay the university 75k/year for the right to train you as a researcher.

Were your masters degrees course or research based? If you have written a thesis for one of those degrees and enjoyed the process, it’s possible that PhD research would be something you enjoy.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field

Post by smectym »

Re “fully funded”: I certainly agree that it makes zero sense to attempt to pursue a PhD If the University is not offering a full fellowship. That is quite clear. Now, the fellowship may involve certain teaching responsibilities; but that goes with the territory . Nevertheless, the candidate is not paying tuition or fees.

But if “fully funded” means that the employer company must pay the employee/candidate’s full salary and benefits while he spends much or most of his time pursuing a PhD...not sure that’s always realistic. But in most situations where there is goodwill on both sides, some mutually acceptable arrangement can be worked out
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by sailaway »

Without knowing your field, three Master's in related fields sounds like you enjoy coursework and the associated comeraderie, rather than research per se. Make sure you fully understand the difference between a Master's and a PhD in your field.

Have you ever presented at these conferences you attend? My Dad used to present at conferences alongside PhD's and all he ever had was an associate's and ton of experience and chutzpah.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by willthrill81 »

ScaledWheel wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:43 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:30 pm
miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:07 pm Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD.
I would be especially cautious with getting a Ph.D. totally online. A major part of the learning that occurs is outside of the 'normal' environment. It comes from casual (and some not casual) conversations with your professors, peers, those at other institutions, etc.

Millions of us have been in a grand experiment for the last ~12 months, and the verdict is in: online learning is not the same as in-person learning. Some things can be learned sufficiently or even preferentially online, but this is far from universal. And if the student isn't very motivated in a given topic, online learning can be an absolute train wreck.

And on the topic of needing to be absolutely committed to a good doctoral program to succeed, I think that about 50% of those who start doctoral programs, most of whom should know about the difficulties, still wash out. And sadly, many of these don't do so until they are years into their program, wasting lots of time and money.
At the risk of being a snob, are there any good programs that are online?
If there are, I don't know of any. Frankly, I suspect that the good programs don't believe that a good doctoral education can be provided 100% online. I do know an individual who has been going through a hybrid doctoral program (i.e., intensive in-person work about once a month with the remainder online), and I think that may work out fairly well.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Afty »

Would you be willing to share what topic you want to get a PhD in?

In my field (computer science), I am not aware of any reputable online PhD programs. I’ve never met anyone who attended an online PhD program after 10 years in the field, attending many conferences, etc. I also agree with the others that you should only do a PhD if it is fully funded. I’d also caution against doing one part time. A PhD in my area normally takes 5-7 years of full time, intense work. Even if you’re especially motivated, I think it will be difficult to do well part time and to graduate in a reasonable amount of time. Plus the main reason to do one is to focus deeply on an interesting problem, which will be difficult to do if you have a day job.

If your goal is to do research and publish conference papers, that’s a great reason to do a PhD — that’s exactly what you’re signing up for.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Jyb33 »

I have 3 mail-order PhD's, and 4 mail order masters degrees........it makes me "sleep well at night".


But back to the topic: The main reason to get a PhD is to tell ("politely" of course) your medical doctor
that you would like to be addressed as "Doctor of Philosophy ....(fill in your name). In fact, I tell my
dentist also.......now I"m starting to tell (politely of course) most other people, but I also will
answer to Philosophy Doctor Bob....and close friends can call me Philosophy Doc Bob....
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by edgeagg »

PhD is for people who really like research. I have a PhD in CS, which took me 3 years to complete (didn't have to do any coursework since I took my qualifiers the first semester in). It was still 3 years of lost wages in a hot field. However, the depth of knowledge I acquired in systems was well worth it. So, for me, the PhD didn't matter as much as the opportunity to go really deep into a field and build a lot of expertise. I doubt that any online PhD can do that.

I do find that the research skills that I learned helped me a lot when entering new fields to work in and help me today. So for me, it was well worth it. It is a very personal choice and strongly depends on you, the field of study and the university.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by oldfort »

miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:44 pm I don't need a PhD. I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement. I have not seen that a PhD will open any doors that are currently closed to me.

P.S. I have completed two masters degrees in my field of choice, and am expecting that I will graduate with my third masters in the same general field next summer.
Going to college is a hobby for you. You will soon have three Master's degrees already. You don't think the PhD will open anymore doors. I can't fathom getting a PhD for the fun of it, while balancing a family and full time job.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Northern Flicker »

A true PhD is the process of starting a research program. This is a more than full-time endeavor. It is an open-ended endeavor with completion defined by the research results you obtain. It is not just running through a maze of courses and checking the boxes on requirements as you complete them. While there is no intrinsic reason why a PhD program cannot be organized online, and I'm sure the pandemic has led to alot more online interaction, I think very few people would be able to start a research program and generate quality research while moonlighting from a megacorp job.

Being a successful researcher is more than a full-time job by itself. If you just want a piece of paper saying you have a doctorate to hang on the wall, and can find an online program with a bunch of well defined requirements leading to the degree, that is a personal decision whether to do it. But it should not be viewed as the equivalent of a PhD conferred by a "Research 1" university.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Jazztonight »

Here's what jumped out at me from the original post:
I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement.
You're "about 40 years old," and you're "happy with a dull, repetitive job that pays well"?

My God, man, you could live for another 50 years, with a career that could last another 25 years.

And $20,000? What is $20,000 over a career, especially for a guy whose "job pays well."

I've deleted every next sentence I've written, so I'll end it here.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

Mmm. I'm saying don't. I can't think of many (any?) reputable programs that are online and want the PhD student to pay. And if you are actually doing research- I'm not sure how that plays with a mega corp career. It's not just night classes and exams.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by theorist »

There can be aesthetic and intellectual satisfactions to understanding something deeply that have little to do with the practical benefits to your career. In my specialty, there is no comparison between what a top PhD understands and what a Masters student understands — the view of the field and the nature of the questions is different. The same happens at later stages too — the very best and most perceptive researchers are functioning with a completely different view of the intellectual landscape, the important questions, and the directions for progress than even other experienced PhD level researchers.

So if you aspire to that kind of different view of what you do (and if your field admits such hierarchies of levels of understanding), it may be worth getting a PhD even without concrete motivations from pay.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by baconavocado »

I would not do it at age 40. I had a chance to do something similar when I was in my early 30s and an advisor discouraged me from doing it. At the time, I was kind of upset and didn't quite understand why he did it, but looking back, I'm thankful. 20-30 years ago, companies limited how high you could go w/o a PhD, but now those roadblocks are disappearing and employees are judged more on their intelligence and job performance rather than the letters behind their name. Of course, there are still organizations that operate the old way. I've also worked with many people with PhDs and w/o PhDs and don't find that, in general, someone with a PhD makes a more valuable employee. I've known plenty of PhDs who were not particularly bright and only wanted to draw a paycheck and cruise. I also feel that the brightest scientists, the ones who are sort of naturally inquisitive and destined to do original research, go straight from a bachelor's program to a PhD program - in other words, doing it all in their 20s.

Not getting a PhD allowed me to buy a home when I was relatively young, begin saving for retirement early, travel more, and have many more experiences when I was young and healthy, rather than camping out in a lab and writing papers.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by GregG3 »

Only if you are interested in the research aspect of your field and want to study a small fragment of it in minute detail. Typically, a 7 day/week commitment for at least 3 years. Career-wise MBA used to be a much easier option.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by warner25 »

I'm in a similar situation, but with a key difference.

I'll start a PhD program next year in my mid-late 30s. It will be "fully funded" not only in the sense that I won't pay anything, but also that my employer will give me the time (three years) to do it in residence while continuing to pay my same salary and benefits. My options are simply (1) keep working hard in the office, or (2) work hard in school towards a PhD instead, with no additional sacrifice. It's a very special situation.

If the deal involved doing it on my own time, on nights and weekends, I wouldn't do it. At this point in my life, with several small children, everyday is saturated with work, chores, errands, and child-care. Just getting eight hours of sleep, some exercise, and a shower everyday is unrealistic.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Caduceus »

What are the opportunity costs of doing so? You are someone who's gotten two masters and will get a third, so it seems like you do enjoy learning/research for its own sake and might find the Ph.D. enjoyable. I would not worry about the age. Some of the best people in many fields came to their fields / advanced degrees quite late.

But I think you should consider the costs of doing so, and research if that's really the life you want. The doctoral process is open-ended and can be quite tough on some personalities. I think one of the most important things is to research your advisor, because that person is going to be the main reason whether you have a pleasant or unpleasant experience. Talk to some of your prospective advisor's current or former students, and read between the lines. They aren't going to say anything outright negative, but you'll get hints about what to expect. Like, if they say - "he's a big shot so he's not always available" - that means you won't get responses to your emails for many days, may not get your signatures for grant proposals in time, etc.

Your advisor needs to be a good fit for your personality. Mine was very hands-off in his approach, which I really liked, but which annoyed some of my colleagues to no end. My Ph.D. years were the best in my life so far. It was a good life. Just hanging out with like-minded and incredibly smart people and lots of unstructured free time to do research, but I would say maybe 20% of the people I knew ended up having some type of mental issues (mild depression, anxiety, etc.) at some point in the process.

If I had to choose again, I'm not sure if I would do it again though, because I ended up in a field that didn't require it. I did an undergrad in one field, a Ph.D. in another, and another masters to transition to my current field. So, if you don't see any professional advancement due to the Ph.D., then to be honest, I'm not sure I would recommend it.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by rural_dude »

Sorry if I missed it, but what is the general field?

I work as scientist at a mega corp, in a role that almost always requires a PhD. I do *NOT* have a PhD, but am on track to reach the highest level of individual contributor. Not saying this to brag but mentioning that it isnt *always* about degrees but about results that deliver and value you create. Our corporate structure places a major emphasis on this degree and there is certainly a bias to overcome as someone with *only* an MS degree.

Is there a way to get on the career ladder of a PhD at work without a PhD? Do you have a good sponsor or mentor?
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by rural_dude »

Also, while not having a PhD myself my impression is that the research to completing the degree is the most significant benefit. When interviewing potential candidates we always talk about their research. It drives almost every question asked during the interview. So, consider how the research will be conducted online and what you will learn from doing that research.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by metacritic »

This. I have a PhD and it yielded an unusually interesting career. There aren't many people I think should follow suit (and I think I would have a very different looking interesting career had I taken another pathway, surely a more lucrative one, though I'm doing well compared to my peers from the PhD program). It was a miserable experience to get the degree with huge opportunity and psychic costs. I'm thriving today but that's absolutely not the case for many from the program.
nyx328 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:02 pm PhD here too and I’ll echo everything that has already been said and add this — if you aren’t 100% committed to doing it, you won’t get through it. A PhD in a legitimate discipline is miserable, and it’s not just the coursework. It’s the academic politics, the way you’re treated as a “student” despite that fact that you’re likely working at the same level as a professor, the fact that you’re delaying income (not as big a deal in your case) etc. In fact, getting through a PhD is less about getting through the work than it is dealing with the mental stress of it.

This is not to dissuade you. Doing a PhD was the single hardest, but the most rewarding thing I’ve ever done. It teaches you a whole lot about life and also about yourself. If it’s something you really want to do, you should do it. But doing it is really just about how much BS you can put up with over a 5+ year period.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I'm sure you know that if you do pursue the PhD, it will consume your life for those 4 or so years. You're going to have no time for anything in your life besides the degree pursuit. I didn't see if you have a spouse and kids. If not, I'd certainly go for it. I got my Masters degree paid by my employer full time where their program specifically said that I was not to do any company work during the pursuit of the degree. I was on a short 18 month restriction, so I did overload and take a full load during the summer. I'd tell my wife I was going to see "Carol" as we'd have dinner together before I headed to the Carol Newman library to meet classmates to work on course work until "she" closed at 11pm. I'm sure you know that you do get used to the constant work required for a rigorous program. I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I did not go back for the PhD, which I could have applied to do with my work again paying. I was 33 when I finished the Masters.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Nate79 »

I don't know what field offers an online only Phd program but I can't image it is very valuable. If you can't do it right with sufficient time to devote to it along with the right motivation then don't do it.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by tigermilk »

PhD here who started before full time employment but finished while employed. You don't say what field you are in, but for myself, I am an engineer. I am a firm believer in the role of on the job training to build skills, particularly at the undergraduate level. I tell students who intern with us that they will learn more in a couple of weeks working than a semester at college due to the 4p hour work weeks. Plus, the undergraduate curriculum, at least in engineering, bears little resemblance to the day to day workings. Fast forward to grad school and the curriculum was so much better. Quality technical material that got at the heart of theory. It has stuck with me my entire career and given me a solid background to tackle more areas. But honestly, the PhD required only about 15 more coursework hours beyond the masters. The rest was the research and dissertation. The former was beneficial and the latter not so much. I will say that the PhD has given me enhanced stature in the workplace. I work on researchy things but don't publish; I delve into those ssdvanced areas to solve our critical operational issues on an international asset/program valued at nearly $100 billion. No time to publish as I need to move on to the next forest fire. I like that - I am a kid in a technical sandbox with all the fun of solving puzzles without the mundane aspects of writing journal articles or conference papers,

In my organization, we have had engineers get their doctorates in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. No one has regrets, I have a sister currently pursuing one in her field, and she turns 54 next month.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by an_asker »

miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:44 pm I may have an opportunity to pursue a PhD in the field that I have chosen as my career. My company will fund 100% of the cost of the PhD program, however, I would be responsible for paying income tax on the amount that they pay beyond $5000 per year. (Pursuing a PhD will make me eligible for a new career, so the cost that the company pays toward the degree is considered a taxable benefit). My quick estimation is that the company will pay about $75,000 for the degree and I will pay about $20,000 in income taxes.

I don't need a PhD. I am happily employed at my megacorp in a dull, repetitive job that pays well. I will likely do the same job from now until retirement. I have not seen that a PhD will open any doors that are currently closed to me.

I would very much like a PhD though. I enjoy attending conferences where everyone else has completed their PhD, and I feel a bit left out. I would enjoy presenting my dissertation research at a conference and I am interested in getting published. At this point of my career, I am more interested in exploring some avenues that I have not explored yet (like conference presentations and getting published) and perhaps a little less interested in strictly financial opportunities (like working overtime).

I guess it's really a personal choice decision.....

I would appreciate any folks comments one way or another.

P.S. I have completed two masters degrees in my field of choice, and am expecting that I will graduate with my third masters in the same general field next summer.
I echo what dan7800 and willthrill have written. I got my PhD when I was in my 20s. That was miserable. Looking back, for sure if I knew then what I know now, I would have either a) not even started or b) quit when the going got tough. It was that rare occasion where "being tough and getting going" which is what I did, really backfired on me. Neither am I using that PhD nor am I in the field anymore. It was very demoralizing.

So, go for a PhD only if you know exactly what you want and if the PhD will let you get it. For instance, in my case, before the era of the internet and being an introvert and largely clueless, I just assumed that getting a PhD would land me in a position similar to where willthrill is - I learned the hard way that it is not as easy as that. Not only do you have to be good (I want to say I was/am) but you also need either a) a PhD from a top school and/or b) a PhD advisor who is in the proper clique.

Yes, there are refereed publications etc, but it is much much easier to get those if you are from a top school or a top professor in the field.

If you think that it is a) get your PhD then b) publish what you want and c) attend all the conferences you want, you are in for a rude awakening.

On top of all this, I just saw that you are considering an online PhD?!! :oops:

No way, absolutely!!
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Nowizard »

A Ph.D. was a requirement in my area, but my mother and wife obtained them in their 50's due to a desire to do so as it made little difference in their careers. Basically, those are two, primary reasons for getting one. You say you don't "Need" one, but "Want" one. Pragmatically, it is a no brainer that only asks the question "Why do you want one?" Personal decisions are ultimately that. If you want it and have the benefit of financial support for obtaining it, and it would be a positive achievement, the benefits could far outweigh any career or financial advantage.

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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by GreendaleCC »

miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:07 pm Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD.
Bottom line: This is not going to be perceived as a “real PhD” by the mainstream academic community, so I’m afraid you might still feel left out at conferences. Personally, I would not pay $20k in taxes for this.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

Like you, I went to graduate school multiple times (two masters and a teaching credential). In my case, the second masters was in a completely different field as I made a career change in my late 20s. I attended in-person in the evenings while working during the daytime so my days were long. I completed these programs between ages 24-32, before I became a dad and when I had a bit more energy.

You say that you would have to work on the PhD during the evenings and weekends since you would continue to work. Do you have a family? Potentially putting strain on a marriage and being able to spend a lot less time with children during their formative years is a trade-off I personally would not make myself for a degree that wasn’t necessary and if I were in my 40s (which I happen to be). Finances are not the only thing to consider. Also think about the time involved carefully.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by caffeperfavore »

GreendaleCC wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:01 am
miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:07 pm Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD.
Bottom line: This is not going to be perceived as a “real PhD” by the mainstream academic community, so I’m afraid you might still feel left out at conferences. Personally, I would not pay $20k in taxes for this.
Yep, an online school will not admit you to the club. Seriously, the dissertations I've seen from online schools in my field look like undergraduate papers. My PhD program was a full-time suffer fest. It's irksome to see how little people can put in from some places and still get a "PhD."
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by willthrill81 »

an_asker wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:59 am So, go for a PhD only if you know exactly what you want and if the PhD will let you get it. For instance, in my case, before the era of the internet and being an introvert and largely clueless, I just assumed that getting a PhD would land me in a position similar to where willthrill is - I learned the hard way that it is not as easy as that. Not only do you have to be good (I want to say I was/am) but you also need either a) a PhD from a top school and/or b) a PhD advisor who is in the proper clique.
My Ph.D. wasn't from a top school, and my advisors (had two) weren't close to the top of their field, but having published in an 'A' level journal as a doctoral student and being in a discipline where demand significantly exceeded supply for years, I was blessed to have multiple offers for campus visits (i.e., short-listed) when I was on the job market and probably could have had at least three offers had I waited for them (which I didn't because there was no need). This isn't a humble brag, just adding relevant background information that led to me being where I am now.

Going into academia isn't the peaches and cream that many believe it to be, especially for those who aren't in discipline where demand is strong for faculty and students. It's incredibly political, both internally and externally, and the nature of the process is such that the people who pursue careers in university administration are not commonly those who were professionally trained to deal with the realities of managing multi-million dollar organizations. Cushy pensions have largely fallen by the wayside and replaced with 401(k) type plans, though most do have generous matches. And unless you pursue a career in administration (and sometimes even if you do), there often isn't much opportunity for growth unless you want to move across country. It's not the worst career out there by far, but it definitely has its share of problems.

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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by willthrill81 »

caffeperfavore wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:28 am
GreendaleCC wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:01 am
miamivice wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:07 pm Since I have no plans to pursue a leave of absence or quit my day job, it'd have to be a 100% online PhD.
Bottom line: This is not going to be perceived as a “real PhD” by the mainstream academic community, so I’m afraid you might still feel left out at conferences. Personally, I would not pay $20k in taxes for this.
Yep, an online school will not admit you to the club. Seriously, the dissertations I've seen from online schools in my field look like undergraduate papers. My PhD program was a full-time suffer fest. It's irksome to see how little people can put in from some places and still get a "PhD."
I've only known one person with an online Ph.D. who was able to fairly successfully enter academia, but she was the exception by far, and her pedigree definitely hindered her.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by stoptothink »

an_asker wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:59 am
I echo what dan7800 and willthrill have written. I got my PhD when I was in my 20s. That was miserable. Looking back, for sure if I knew then what I know now, I would have either a) not even started or b) quit when the going got tough. It was that rare occasion where "being tough and getting going" which is what I did, really backfired on me. Neither am I using that PhD nor am I in the field anymore. It was very demoralizing.

So, go for a PhD only if you know exactly what you want and if the PhD will let you get it. For instance, in my case, before the era of the internet and being an introvert and largely clueless, I just assumed that getting a PhD would land me in a position similar to where willthrill is - I learned the hard way that it is not as easy as that. Not only do you have to be good (I want to say I was/am) but you also need either a) a PhD from a top school and/or b) a PhD advisor who is in the proper clique.

Yes, there are refereed publications etc, but it is much much easier to get those if you are from a top school or a top professor in the field.

If you think that it is a) get your PhD then b) publish what you want and c) attend all the conferences you want, you are in for a rude awakening.

On top of all this, I just saw that you are considering an online PhD?!! :oops:

No way, absolutely!!
I completed my PhD at 31, and would have said the exact same thing as you except I got REALLY REALLY lucky. I decided to pursue mine because I was at a crossroads in my life (about to get a divorce after spending the past 5yrs putting my ex through her final year of undergrad then dental school) and needed to accomplish something for my own mental health. I went in well aware that I had zero interest in academia and that it likely would not help my career. It was a grind; I actually enjoyed undergrad and my MS, but the PhD sucked. I hated almost every second of it, and it made me even more jaded about academia. It did indirectly lead me into a different field and to a position where a doctorate is necessary, but IMO primarily so that the C-level execs can market the program that I run as being overseen by Dr. "Stoptothink". I have published a lot, but it is what my employer wants/needs and has little to nothing to do with what my academic study/research was; publishing is easily the worst part of my job now.

Sit down and really consider what a PhD would do for you and if the time commitment is worth it. As someone who has taught at the college level (adjunct for a handful of years, just on the side), I will echo what others have said; an online PhD will improve your chances of getting a job in academia about as much as growing a mustache will. If you want to do it for self-actualization and understand that it likely won't result in a career payoff, do it.
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Re: Should I pursue a PhD in my chosen field?

Post by Dontridetheindexdown »

Go for it!

From what you wrote, your personal cost contribution will only be $20,000, an insignificant amount for what you will gain.

It made no difference in my career trajectory, but it helped me to become a much better analyst.
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