Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

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crystalbank
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Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by crystalbank »

Hey there Bogleheads,

So it looks like our home has an infestation of Subterranean Termites and I'm in the process of getting multiple inspections and quotes. But I want to get some opinions here before I make any decision. So far we had two inspections. Both of them identified similar damaged areas and concluded that structural framing, attic are good. The infestations seems to be concentrated on a few walls, some exterior wood panels, wooden floor and in a cabinet near the wall (with some 'termite tubes'). But their 'solutions' are a bit different. They're both reputable local companies.

One of them wanted to tent the house, spray it with chemicals and also make some holes in the walls every 18inches and fill it with Termidor foam.They don't fix or replace already damaged wood/cosmetic repairs and only do structural repairs if necessary.

The second company seems to think that tenting is unnecessary since they are subterranean termites. Instead they only suggested drilling holes and filling it with foam and spraying the soil around the house. But they want to replace/repair every piece of damaged wood. Not only that - the inspector flagged a few other pieces of wood for 'dry rot' and suggested replacing them too. Strangely, he declined to give me a quote on the spot but told me his company will email me in a few days.

I have another one coming early next week, but before that I want to get a few suggestions from fellow Bogleheads. Did anyone have these earth termites? How effective are the suggested treatments? Is it worth it fix/replace all wood pieces damaged by termites even if they're not structurally important? Also, should I bother fixing the 'dry rot' wood pieces on the exterior of the house?

Lastly, what steps should I take going forward to prevent another infestation. I'm in SoCal area.
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Sandtrap
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by Sandtrap »

crystalbank wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:35 pm Hey there Bogleheads,

So it looks like our home has an infestation of Subterranean Termites and I'm in the process of getting multiple inspections and quotes. But I want to get some opinions here before I make any decision. So far we had two inspections. Both of them identified similar damaged areas and concluded that structural framing, attic are good. The infestations seems to be concentrated on a few walls, some exterior wood panels, wooden floor and in a cabinet near the wall (with some 'termite tubes'). But their 'solutions' are a bit different. They're both reputable local companies.

One of them wanted to tent the house, spray it with chemicals and also make some holes in the walls every 18inches and fill it with Termidor foam.They don't fix or replace already damaged wood/cosmetic repairs and only do structural repairs if necessary.

The second company seems to think that tenting is unnecessary since they are subterranean termites. Instead they only suggested drilling holes and filling it with foam and spraying the soil around the house. But they want to replace/repair every piece of damaged wood. Not only that - the inspector flagged a few other pieces of wood for 'dry rot' and suggested replacing them too. Strangely, he declined to give me a quote on the spot but told me his company will email me in a few days.

I have another one coming early next week, but before that I want to get a few suggestions from fellow Bogleheads. Did anyone have these earth termites? How effective are the suggested treatments? Is it worth it fix/replace all wood pieces damaged by termites even if they're not structurally important? Also, should I bother fixing the 'dry rot' wood pieces on the exterior of the house?

Lastly, what steps should I take going forward to prevent another infestation. I'm in SoCal area.
As a retired G.C., my company had done subterranean (Formosan) ground termite inspections and repairs for many years.

Notes:
These termites need a source of moisture/water. They normally live in tree roots, shrub roots, etc, etc. They also can migrate (swarm/seasonal) and establish "secondary" infestations that are not connected to the ground but still have a moisture source. IE: between layers of roofing plywood, sheathing, near gutters and downspouts, etc.
Once they've entered a home, they can also establish secondary infestations not connected to the ground but where there is moisture. IE: plumbing chaises, bathroom walls where there is condensation from cold pipes or slight leakage, behind shower's, beneath shower pans or in the ceilings below, any wall where there is plumbing or dwv systems (drains), below toilets, areas where there are hose bib penetrations on exterior walls.

So. . . why the above explanation?

Tenting and ground treatment in the perimeter of the home, foundation, concrete slabs adjoining the exterior wall plates of the home, etc, (both) is the gold standard for a 1 shot approach. Then, thereafter, careful monitoring of entry points, "mud tube" appearances on the foundations, supports, etc, annually then spot treating.

You do not have to replace damaged or wood that has an infestation as long as the tenting penetrates that.
****But, and this is a huge "but", normal tenting duration and concentrations are not enough to get at deep ground termite infestations in large structural members or protected areas (IE: under the slab, footings, deep inside 4x12 beams, etc, etc.
Example: I have pulled out solid ground termite nests that completely filled all 14.5" wide and 12 " deep and 6 feet long between about 8 rafters in an entire living room floor. (it was nasty), and, the building had a history of ground termite tenting every 8+ years plus ground treatments. Yet, the colony survived. Likely a huge percentage died but the centers remained.

So: you do not have to replace dry rot wood unless it is structurally unsafe or you want a cosmetic repair. You do not have to take out every piece of wood that has termite damage in it. (it can be an active (creepy crawlers) or inactive (dead holes).
Just replace what is structurally damaged and is unsafe, or you want to replace due to cosmetics (looks bad and don't want to caulk and paint it).
Be sure that the termite company specifically tents for deep subteranean termites and that there are live and active infestations.
Example: I have paid for the extra days above "standard" to have a large apartment building thoroughly tented due to ongoing structural damage from sub termites as well as active secondary infestations in the roof.

Actionably: Suggest you get more inspections and quotes from licensed reputable termite treatment companies. Be sure it is not just 1 or 2 guys in a small business termite company. Get a variety of quotes and looks from large companies as well with experienced inspectors. Avoid the handyman type that treat termites and also try to do carpentry and structural work and more and try to "sell you" on more work. Look for companies that do tenting specifically and do it a lot. Call them for a look...

Finally, this is something to do a great job on without cutting corners. Sub termites can be very aggressive depending on area and climate. Structural repairs can be very costly.

Prevention:
Once you've taken care of the termites you have. Prevent more by the following:
1. Direct water away from the home by grading, sloping, installing drain pipes on your downspouts, installing gutters where you don't have them, avoid standing water after rains so get it to drain away from the home quickly, keep bushes and plantings away from the home, if you have large trees nearby then beware as the termites live in the roots, if you regularly wash down your patio slab or wash your car in the driveway then direct the water away from the home, caulk and seal cracks in your sidewalk, cement slabs where they have a joint against the home, keep moisture and water away from your footings and support posts etc, below your home. Why? Because without water and moisture, the sub termites die. That's why they need the mud tubes to travel to retain moisture.
2. Make sure you don't have ongoing leaks and seepages in your plumbing, drains, shower walls, HVAC condensate drains, etc.
3. Caulk and seal all entry points and large joints in your home which happens if it is painted well. Etc.
4. Regular termite inspections and spot treatment as needed.

j :D
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jabberwockOG
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by jabberwockOG »

In addition to spot treating, have the entire perimeter of the house foundation treated with termidor. Use a pro level company (not necessarily a national brand company but not a 1-2 person company either) to perform the treatment that is willing to issue you a termite bond (insuring future repair work for infestations) after the treatment. They may also want to install bait stations in addition to perimeter treatment. As previously posted subterranean termites need water to survive, normally that means returning to water in the ground - but it is possible they may have an internal water source in the house so ultimately tenting may be necessary. Don't panic, while they can do a lot of damage, they move pretty slow - take your time - do the research, get some quality estimates and then go with a company you can trust and that will be around for the long run.
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by Sandtrap »

jabberwockOG wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:50 pm In addition to spot treating, have the entire perimeter of the house foundation treated with termidor. Use a pro level company (not necessarily a national brand company but not a 1-2 person company either) to perform the treatment that is willing to issue you a termite bond (insuring future repair work for infestations) after the treatment. They may also want to install bait stations in addition to perimeter treatment. As previously posted subterranean termites need water to survive, normally that means returning to water in the ground - but it is possible they may have an internal water source in the house so ultimately tenting may be necessary. Don't panic, while they can do a lot of damage, they move pretty slow - take your time - do the research, get some quality estimates and then go with a company you can trust and that will be around for the long run.
+1
Great point.
Entire perimeter of the home.

j :D
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crystalbank
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by crystalbank »

Sandtrap wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 pm
crystalbank wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:35 pm Hey there Bogleheads,

So it looks like our home has an infestation of Subterranean Termites and I'm in the process of getting multiple inspections and quotes. But I want to get some opinions here before I make any decision. So far we had two inspections. Both of them identified similar damaged areas and concluded that structural framing, attic are good. The infestations seems to be concentrated on a few walls, some exterior wood panels, wooden floor and in a cabinet near the wall (with some 'termite tubes'). But their 'solutions' are a bit different. They're both reputable local companies.

One of them wanted to tent the house, spray it with chemicals and also make some holes in the walls every 18inches and fill it with Termidor foam.They don't fix or replace already damaged wood/cosmetic repairs and only do structural repairs if necessary.

The second company seems to think that tenting is unnecessary since they are subterranean termites. Instead they only suggested drilling holes and filling it with foam and spraying the soil around the house. But they want to replace/repair every piece of damaged wood. Not only that - the inspector flagged a few other pieces of wood for 'dry rot' and suggested replacing them too. Strangely, he declined to give me a quote on the spot but told me his company will email me in a few days.

I have another one coming early next week, but before that I want to get a few suggestions from fellow Bogleheads. Did anyone have these earth termites? How effective are the suggested treatments? Is it worth it fix/replace all wood pieces damaged by termites even if they're not structurally important? Also, should I bother fixing the 'dry rot' wood pieces on the exterior of the house?

Lastly, what steps should I take going forward to prevent another infestation. I'm in SoCal area.
As a retired G.C., my company had done subterranean (Formosan) ground termite inspections and repairs for many years.

Notes:
These termites need a source of moisture/water. They normally live in tree roots, shrub roots, etc, etc. They also can migrate (swarm/seasonal) and establish "secondary" infestations that are not connected to the ground but still have a moisture source. IE: between layers of roofing plywood, sheathing, near gutters and downspouts, etc.
Once they've entered a home, they can also establish secondary infestations not connected to the ground but where there is moisture. IE: plumbing chaises, bathroom walls where there is condensation from cold pipes or slight leakage, behind shower's, beneath shower pans or in the ceilings below, any wall where there is plumbing or dwv systems (drains), below toilets, areas where there are hose bib penetrations on exterior walls.

So. . . why the above explanation?

Tenting and ground treatment in the perimeter of the home, foundation, concrete slabs adjoining the exterior wall plates of the home, etc, (both) is the gold standard for a 1 shot approach. Then, thereafter, careful monitoring of entry points, "mud tube" appearances on the foundations, supports, etc, annually then spot treating.

You do not have to replace damaged or wood that has an infestation as long as the tenting penetrates that.
****But, and this is a huge "but", normal tenting duration and concentrations are not enough to get at deep ground termite infestations in large structural members or protected areas (IE: under the slab, footings, deep inside 4x12 beams, etc, etc.
Example: I have pulled out solid ground termite nests that completely filled all 14.5" wide and 12 " deep and 6 feet long between about 8 rafters in an entire living room floor. (it was nasty), and, the building had a history of ground termite tenting every 8+ years plus ground treatments. Yet, the colony survived. Likely a huge percentage died but the centers remained.

So: you do not have to replace dry rot wood unless it is structurally unsafe or you want a cosmetic repair. You do not have to take out every piece of wood that has termite damage in it. (it can be an active (creepy crawlers) or inactive (dead holes).
Just replace what is structurally damaged and is unsafe, or you want to replace due to cosmetics (looks bad and don't want to caulk and paint it).
Be sure that the termite company specifically tents for deep subteranean termites and that there are live and active infestations.
Example: I have paid for the extra days above "standard" to have a large apartment building thoroughly tented due to ongoing structural damage from sub termites as well as active secondary infestations in the roof.

Actionably: Suggest you get more inspections and quotes from licensed reputable termite treatment companies. Be sure it is not just 1 or 2 guys in a small business termite company. Get a variety of quotes and looks from large companies as well with experienced inspectors. Avoid the handyman type that treat termites and also try to do carpentry and structural work and more and try to "sell you" on more work. Look for companies that do tenting specifically and do it a lot. Call them for a look...

Finally, this is something to do a great job on without cutting corners. Sub termites can be very aggressive depending on area and climate. Structural repairs can be very costly.

Prevention:
Once you've taken care of the termites you have. Prevent more by the following:
1. Direct water away from the home by grading, sloping, installing drain pipes on your downspouts, installing gutters where you don't have them, avoid standing water after rains so get it to drain away from the home quickly, keep bushes and plantings away from the home, if you have large trees nearby then beware as the termites live in the roots, if you regularly wash down your patio slab or wash your car in the driveway then direct the water away from the home, caulk and seal cracks in your sidewalk, cement slabs where they have a joint against the home, keep moisture and water away from your footings and support posts etc, below your home. Why? Because without water and moisture, the sub termites die. That's why they need the mud tubes to travel to retain moisture.
2. Make sure you don't have ongoing leaks and seepages in your plumbing, drains, shower walls, HVAC condensate drains, etc.
3. Caulk and seal all entry points and large joints in your home which happens if it is painted well. Etc.
4. Regular termite inspections and spot treatment as needed.

j :D
Thanks for the detailed post. I'll get a few more quotes from more companies and see what they quote me. I'll also get an inspection to identify any water/moisture sources and water leaks within the house.
Sandtrap wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 pm Avoid the handyman type that treat termites and also try to do carpentry and structural work and more and try to "sell you" on more work. Look for companies that do tenting specifically and do it a lot. Call them for a look...
Strange that one of them suggested against tenting even though they're a pro-level company. It did sound like they wanted to sell me more repairs if possible. Thanks for the tip.

Much appreciated!
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crystalbank
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by crystalbank »

jabberwockOG wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:50 pm In addition to spot treating, have the entire perimeter of the house foundation treated with termidor. Use a pro level company (not necessarily a national brand company but not a 1-2 person company either) to perform the treatment that is willing to issue you a termite bond (insuring future repair work for infestations) after the treatment. They may also want to install bait stations in addition to perimeter treatment. As previously posted subterranean termites need water to survive, normally that means returning to water in the ground - but it is possible they may have an internal water source in the house so ultimately tenting may be necessary. Don't panic, while they can do a lot of damage, they move pretty slow - take your time - do the research, get some quality estimates and then go with a company you can trust and that will be around for the long run.
Thanks for the info! Will ask them about the Termite bond.
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by HomeStretch »

Based on my experience as a homeowner with subterranean termites for several years after moving into our home, after you deal with the infestation/repairs be sure to spend time on prevention. Sandtrap gave you some excellent prevention tips. I’ll add a couple more:

1) if the ground is in contact with any wood shingles on your house, regrade the area to lower the soil level (while maintaining slope away from the house) to expose more of the foundation.

2) don’t use wood mulch or bark chips around the perimeter of the house. If you have it, rake it back to see if the termites are in the mulch.

3) trim decaying wood and dead branches off trees and shrubs on the property. Remove or treat decaying stumps. Don’t let bushes or trees near the house come in contact with the house.

4) don’t keep firewood near the house.

5) if you have any other wood structures on the property, check those too for infestation.

6) all water from gutter leaders should be diverted using pvc pipe a good distance from the house. Keep gutters clean so you don’t have overflows that saturate the ground next to the house.
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by RetiredCSProf »

Wow! I am dealing with this now, also in Southern CA. The subterranean termites are in the walls of my garage. I have a bid from one company for drilling holes through the concrete slab floor and injecting Termidor. Nothing about repairing damaged areas. I will be getting a second bid and recommendation this week.

There are two condominiums on the property, and the buildings are attached. The first company said nothing about tenting, which would require both condos to be tented. My neighbors in the back unit hate spending money on anything. I paid for tenting both units once, about 20 years ago, and also gave the neighbors a check to cover their hotel room. I don't want to do that again. I know that I have drywood termites as well, but at the moment, I am focused on the subterraneans.

I don't know if there is a water leak somewhere. I have completely remodeled the house in the past 5 years, except for the upstairs bathroom, which is on the calendar for remodeling later this year.
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

Several years ago neighbors on each side of me were having treatment for subterranean termites.

I approached the company and cut a deal for doing mine at a tremendous discount, as I figured it to be a very cheap insurance.

The neighbors told me what they paid, but I didn't share what I paid.

Broken Man 1999
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crystalbank
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by crystalbank »

RetiredCSProf wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 4:05 pm Wow! I am dealing with this now, also in Southern CA. The subterranean termites are in the walls of my garage. I have a bid from one company for drilling holes through the concrete slab floor and injecting Termidor. Nothing about repairing damaged areas. I will be getting a second bid and recommendation this week.

There are two condominiums on the property, and the buildings are attached. The first company said nothing about tenting, which would require both condos to be tented. My neighbors in the back unit hate spending money on anything. I paid for tenting both units once, about 20 years ago, and also gave the neighbors a check to cover their hotel room. I don't want to do that again. I know that I have drywood termites as well, but at the moment, I am focused on the subterraneans.

I don't know if there is a water leak somewhere. I have completely remodeled the house in the past 5 years, except for the upstairs bathroom, which is on the calendar for remodeling later this year.
I'm curious about your treatment plan. I'm still confused about tenting or no tenting. Also if you don't mind can you PM me the companies you got quotes from?
RetiredCSProf
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by RetiredCSProf »

The company I called today said treatment for subterranean and tenting cannot be done simultaneously. My property was treated for both about 30 years ago, but I do not remember if there was a waiting period between the two treatments. I will PM the info.
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Re: Subterranean Termites - Suggestions?

Post by RetiredCSProf »

I have now received 3 bids for treating the subterranean termites -- all local companies. All recommended drilling holes in the concrete slab floor of the garage. The first 2 bids were about $1200. The 3rd bid is $600. The last bid was from a company that treated my property previously, about 30 years ago, and they were recommended by a local realtor who lives in my neighborhood.

I have drywood termites also, and the 3rd company was the only one who offered me a quote for tenting. He said he could spot-treat the garage for drywood termites, but it would make little difference since tenting is needed.

No discussion of repairs, except for replacing wood casing around the garage door -- no reason to make repairs unless tenting is done.
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