10+ year old used cars?
10+ year old used cars?
What is the maximum age of a used car you would consider and why?
Historically, we've purchased Hondas and Toyotas that are about 10 years old and 100,000 miles. We've put nearly 170,000 miles on our 1999 Toyota Camry that we bought 13 years ago with 106,000 miles. The Camry still runs really well, but it has recently started leaking oil, and more concerning, transmission fluid, at a steady rate. We'd like to replace our Camry with another smallish car (probably a Honda Civic, Accord, CRV; Toyota Corolla, Camry, or RAV4; Subaru Imprezza, Forester, Legacy, or Outback). We have about $13,000 to spend, so a close to new car is probably not workable unless we go with a (generally) less reliable brand.
Sometimes you can find a solid deal on an older car with really low miles. E.g., a 2001 Subaru Forester with 50,000 miles for $9,000. However, a car like this makes me nervous because one of the issues with older cars is that the seals start to wear it, and that's not a simple fix. The engine may be in great working order but have seals that will soon start leaking.
So to repeat my original question in a slightly more specific way, would you generally consider purchasing a low mileage vehicle that was more than 10 years old? If so, what are your limits? What are your personal experiences in this regard?
Historically, we've purchased Hondas and Toyotas that are about 10 years old and 100,000 miles. We've put nearly 170,000 miles on our 1999 Toyota Camry that we bought 13 years ago with 106,000 miles. The Camry still runs really well, but it has recently started leaking oil, and more concerning, transmission fluid, at a steady rate. We'd like to replace our Camry with another smallish car (probably a Honda Civic, Accord, CRV; Toyota Corolla, Camry, or RAV4; Subaru Imprezza, Forester, Legacy, or Outback). We have about $13,000 to spend, so a close to new car is probably not workable unless we go with a (generally) less reliable brand.
Sometimes you can find a solid deal on an older car with really low miles. E.g., a 2001 Subaru Forester with 50,000 miles for $9,000. However, a car like this makes me nervous because one of the issues with older cars is that the seals start to wear it, and that's not a simple fix. The engine may be in great working order but have seals that will soon start leaking.
So to repeat my original question in a slightly more specific way, would you generally consider purchasing a low mileage vehicle that was more than 10 years old? If so, what are your limits? What are your personal experiences in this regard?
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Personally there is so much safety tech in the 2015 and recent cars that I wouldn't go back much further. I thought it was gimmicky at first too, but I'll never buy another car without cameras and automatic emergency braking.
But your opinion may vary...
But your opinion may vary...
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I have never worried about modern engines or the seals. Back when I bought used cars exclusively, my concern was mostly rust and misaligned body panels signaling it had possibly been in an accident. The latter can lead to bigger issues like bent frame rails causing alignment problems or broken engine mount bolts, etc. By far, the cheapest cars I have ever owned were those I bought for $500 back in the day and then put 50k to 100k on them. But when one buys older vehicles, you have to expect replacement parts are going to be needed and be willing to do the repairs yourself or have a backup for when it is in the shop. These days with money not an issue and time more of a premium, I just buy new and let someone else get the goody out of my vehicle when I'm done with it and move onto the next new vehicle.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I am the original owner of a 97 Toyota Camry and it has 170K miles. I did have a small engine oil leak but that stopped after replaced the timing belt which I believe changes many seals in the engine as well. If looking at used cars, check to see if the engine requires timing belt replacement and when that was last done or when it is due.
I also have a 2013 Subaru Outback 2.5L that I purchased in 2016 with 105K miles. I have 166K miles on it now and I do have to top off with oil in between oil changes. The 2013 model had some issues with oil consumption. I believe this engine has a timing chain so no timing belt replacements are require so we'll see how long the seals last.
In my location, Subarus hold their value very well.
I also have a 2013 Subaru Outback 2.5L that I purchased in 2016 with 105K miles. I have 166K miles on it now and I do have to top off with oil in between oil changes. The 2013 model had some issues with oil consumption. I believe this engine has a timing chain so no timing belt replacements are require so we'll see how long the seals last.
In my location, Subarus hold their value very well.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
And blind spot monitoring.dukeblue219 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:15 am Personally there is so much safety tech in the 2015 and recent cars that I wouldn't go back much further. I thought it was gimmicky at first too, but I'll never buy another car without cameras and automatic emergency braking.
But your opinion may vary...
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Per another thread apparently how you get rich is buying crappy old cars. So....
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Up north in the rust belt, 10 or 12 year old cars are starting to have serious corrosion issues. I buy mine about 4-5 years old and run them for 5-7 years.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I don't need to save that kind of money, so I would not buy a 10-year-old used car, but one of my children might from me.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I have no problem buying a car 10-20 years old. I only buy Hondas or Toyotas and have done very well from those purchases.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I own a 2005 Lexus LS that I bought for $10k with ~116k on it. I've put maybe $1500 in repairs over 4 years. Happy with it and plan to keep it until the used electric car market is a little more developed.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I'm too much of a nervous nelly to buy anything older than 3 years old. What I have done since I started driving at 17 and now I'm going to be 57 in June is buy a subcompact or compact brand new and run it for over a decade and then repeat the process. This way I'm still not spending too much money on a car and can continue to max out my 401k. I'm currently driving a 09 Nissan Versa that has been very good to me. It has 125,000 miles and so far I have no issues, so I'm taking it one year at a time.
If I have to put more than $1,500 in to it for any issues coming up, I will buy a new car.
I am going to give Carvana a shot and look for a 2020 Versa in the $17,000 to $19,000 range. Hopefully I can keep my 09 for another year or maybe more, time will tell.
I feel buying a car more than a decade old, will make me nervous about the problems that are bound to arise. I kind of feel that way now, with the Versa, but I'm the original owner so I know what I did and feel pretty confident about it.
Good Luck to you no matter what you do. I think you are thinking the correct way. I know too many people that either lease cars and always have a car payment or drive cars they have no business owning and their net worth really is not what it should be because of this insane way they own their cars. Remember, it's a utility to get you places, not a trophy to show the world you have arrived.
If I have to put more than $1,500 in to it for any issues coming up, I will buy a new car.
I am going to give Carvana a shot and look for a 2020 Versa in the $17,000 to $19,000 range. Hopefully I can keep my 09 for another year or maybe more, time will tell.
I feel buying a car more than a decade old, will make me nervous about the problems that are bound to arise. I kind of feel that way now, with the Versa, but I'm the original owner so I know what I did and feel pretty confident about it.
Good Luck to you no matter what you do. I think you are thinking the correct way. I know too many people that either lease cars and always have a car payment or drive cars they have no business owning and their net worth really is not what it should be because of this insane way they own their cars. Remember, it's a utility to get you places, not a trophy to show the world you have arrived.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Nope. Prefer the improvements each generation of new vehicles sport, both in quality and safety features. I have bought new vehicles since the early 70ties.jco wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:10 am What is the maximum age of a used car you would consider and why?
".....So to repeat my original question in a slightly more specific way, would you generally consider purchasing a low mileage vehicle that was more than 10 years old? If so, what are your limits? What are your personal experiences in this regard?
DDs have never bought a used car, but they do keep their vehicles for several years. Last time one of them bought a new car was when her car had 260,000+ miles on it. So, they don't buy frequently.
When DW and I were buying cars early in marriage, we were glad to get 100,000 miles on them. First place we took a new car after purchase was Ziebart to have it rust proofed. Crap builds that only improved when foreign brands started their mass exports to the US.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I bought a 20+ year old Miata once. Ran great for many years and I sold it for just $600 less than what I bought it for. I've also bought a nearly 10 year old, high mileage Honda that I may keep for many more years. I got a great deal on it, so will probably sell it also at not much of a loss.
The key for me is to do some homework. I make sure I'm buying a very reliable model and year (consumer reports and specific car forums are good for this). Also make sure you're buying from a great buyer - one who has maintenance records, good reason for selling, is honest. Do a thorough inspection and test drive yourself and if all seems good, also take it to a good mechanic for a used car inspection before purchasing.
The key for me is to do some homework. I make sure I'm buying a very reliable model and year (consumer reports and specific car forums are good for this). Also make sure you're buying from a great buyer - one who has maintenance records, good reason for selling, is honest. Do a thorough inspection and test drive yourself and if all seems good, also take it to a good mechanic for a used car inspection before purchasing.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
My current car is 19 years old; ~240K on the OD.
I have had some expensive repairs done, but drove enough additional miles to make it worthwhile.
I have had some expensive repairs done, but drove enough additional miles to make it worthwhile.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
In that range you can buy a new Prius Prime. Need to live in an area where Toyota is offering $5k+ cash/rebate, negotiate $3k dealer discount and get the Federal Tax Credit of $4502. Some people also get state/local/utility rebates on top of that, so your net cost can easily be under $19k (after TTL!) or much lower.BalancedJCB19 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:52 am I am going to give Carvana a shot and look for a 2020 Versa in the $17,000 to $19,000 range. Hopefully I can keep my 09 for another year or maybe more, time will tell.
I'd recommend the OP stretch a few $k if a Prius Prime is available for anywhere near this price range - you end up in a car with positive equity immediately. Safe. Reliable. Economical.
I was in the camp of any used car with under 100k miles was "new" and I'd DIY all the repairs/maintenance that I could. Saved lots of $ that way. I prefer newer and safer now. Incremental cost increase doesn't seem all that bad - and I've run the #s many, many times.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
There's no set age limit for the car I would buy. I tend to buy the newest vehicle I can buy with the budget that I have. I avoid low mileage vehicles like your example with the Subaru. In my opinion, age is a better predictor of vehicle reliability than mileage, not to mention safety. Newer vehicles are usually safer. So I am the opposite, I choose higher mileage newer vehicles. The last vehicle I bought was a 1 year old Mitsubishi Outlander with 26k miles. It was a previous rental which lowers its price more. Again, I prefer this because people don't like previous rentals. I think rental companies in general keep up with maintenance on their vehicles better than owners do. And I know both owners and renters that trash their vehicles so that is a wash to me. I also avoid the Boglehead approved Honda and Toyota brands. I believe the used market for these brands are inflated beyond their reputation for reliability.
But to answer your question directly. If I were in the market today, I would not buy anything older than a 2012 model. This is because ESC was made mandatory in 2012 and that safety feature has a big improvement in avoiding accidents. My other vehicle is a 2009 Ford Escape with 130k miles. It does have ESC.
But to answer your question directly. If I were in the market today, I would not buy anything older than a 2012 model. This is because ESC was made mandatory in 2012 and that safety feature has a big improvement in avoiding accidents. My other vehicle is a 2009 Ford Escape with 130k miles. It does have ESC.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
There have been a number of articles and posts about how the used car market has gone crazy with the pandemic and people not wanting to take mass transit. A lot of people are also buying used cars because of tax returns and the stimulus checks. Some people are not able to take vacation in 2020 or 2021 because of pandemic so they are using their vacation money to buy a car instead.
I have a 2018 Corolla and after hearing about the high used car prices out of curiosity I got online quotes from Carmax and Carvana and they are both willing to pay me almost as much for it as I paid for for it when it was new. They are then selling three year old Corollas for more than I paid for it when it was new.
Some new cars are also in short supply because of chip shortages but the ones that are not impacted by that do not seem to be impacted nearly as much as used cars.
If I can find a good deal on a new car I am actually considering trading in my Corolla on a larger new car since that will mean that I got to use the Corolla for three years for almost free(except for operating costs).
Now is really not a good time to buy a used car.
Even if you needed a small car loan buying something like a new Corolla, if you can get a good deal, then keeping it for a long time might make more sense then buying a used car. Here is a post that I did about how to buy a new car online. This is the third new car I have bought that way.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=239526
If you can buy something like a new Corolla for less than a $20K "out the door" price and keep it for 10+ years then sell it for $5,000 it will not cost all that much in depreciation and you will likely not need to pay for a lot of non-routine maintenance. That may not be the cheapest way to own a car but it can be competitive with buying a series of $13K older used cars.
If an electric car would work for you then you could also look into them. People have posted about being able to get multiple rebates from both the federal and some states that can make the cost of a electric car more reasonable if your state has a large rebate.
Toyota Avalon. It is larger than a Camry but it is less popular and less sought after so you may be able to find a good deal on one, at least in normal times. They are often owned by older drivers who do not put a lot of miles on them.
Toyota Prius. They have an electric drive train that requires very little maintenance and there is a lot less that can go wrong as they age. You will need to research how to check the battery life and status but my impression is the fears of needing an expensive battery replacement are over stated.
In about 2012 they also started doing a new side offset crash test that a lot of cars did not do well on so the manufactures improved the car design to do better on those crash tests. It would be good to be cautious and do additional safety research for cars that were build in 2012 or before.
I have a 2018 Corolla and after hearing about the high used car prices out of curiosity I got online quotes from Carmax and Carvana and they are both willing to pay me almost as much for it as I paid for for it when it was new. They are then selling three year old Corollas for more than I paid for it when it was new.
Some new cars are also in short supply because of chip shortages but the ones that are not impacted by that do not seem to be impacted nearly as much as used cars.
If I can find a good deal on a new car I am actually considering trading in my Corolla on a larger new car since that will mean that I got to use the Corolla for three years for almost free(except for operating costs).
Now is really not a good time to buy a used car.
Even if you needed a small car loan buying something like a new Corolla, if you can get a good deal, then keeping it for a long time might make more sense then buying a used car. Here is a post that I did about how to buy a new car online. This is the third new car I have bought that way.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=239526
If you can buy something like a new Corolla for less than a $20K "out the door" price and keep it for 10+ years then sell it for $5,000 it will not cost all that much in depreciation and you will likely not need to pay for a lot of non-routine maintenance. That may not be the cheapest way to own a car but it can be competitive with buying a series of $13K older used cars.
If an electric car would work for you then you could also look into them. People have posted about being able to get multiple rebates from both the federal and some states that can make the cost of a electric car more reasonable if your state has a large rebate.
Two cars I would add to your list to consider;
Toyota Avalon. It is larger than a Camry but it is less popular and less sought after so you may be able to find a good deal on one, at least in normal times. They are often owned by older drivers who do not put a lot of miles on them.
Toyota Prius. They have an electric drive train that requires very little maintenance and there is a lot less that can go wrong as they age. You will need to research how to check the battery life and status but my impression is the fears of needing an expensive battery replacement are over stated.
ESC (electronic stability control) is a really good safety to feature to have and it became required as standard equipment in 2012. Some higher end cars had it before then. I would not buy a car without ESC. This is especially true for a SUV where there is more rollover risk.
In about 2012 they also started doing a new side offset crash test that a lot of cars did not do well on so the manufactures improved the car design to do better on those crash tests. It would be good to be cautious and do additional safety research for cars that were build in 2012 or before.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
10+ years old doesn't bother me at all. In fact, up until January of this year, 3 of my 4 cars were older than 10 years (1988, 2002, 2002, 2016). Sold the 88', so now "only" 2 of 3 are older than 10 years.
2002 Chevrolet Corvette - 57k miles
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel - 96k miles (original injectors...knock on wood!)
2016 Toyota 4Runner - 83k miles
To be fair, I do all of my own automotive work, so these older vehicles are less of a problem for me than they might be for someone who has to depend on a mechanic for maintenance and repairs. The older ones are also lower mile vehicles, relative to their age.
According to some here, I probably have a death wish because I have a vehicle that's older than 3 years old and doesn't have 30,000 little nannies watching over me. Doesn't phase me. Can't live life in fear. I'm also not about to fork out 50k+ for a new equivalent Silverado or 70k+ for a new Corvette...
2002 Chevrolet Corvette - 57k miles
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel - 96k miles (original injectors...knock on wood!)
2016 Toyota 4Runner - 83k miles
To be fair, I do all of my own automotive work, so these older vehicles are less of a problem for me than they might be for someone who has to depend on a mechanic for maintenance and repairs. The older ones are also lower mile vehicles, relative to their age.
According to some here, I probably have a death wish because I have a vehicle that's older than 3 years old and doesn't have 30,000 little nannies watching over me. Doesn't phase me. Can't live life in fear. I'm also not about to fork out 50k+ for a new equivalent Silverado or 70k+ for a new Corvette...
Last edited by foamypirate on Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Depends on the car and your ability to perform repairs yourself. When my older son started driving, I bought a 25 year old Honda CRX that was completely stock with just under 100k miles. While owning it, I replaced the alternator. Kept it about a year and sold it for exactly what I bought it for after putting on about 10k miles. I should have kept it. The value today would be double what it was then.
But I'm very well versed in Hondas (I owned a CRX racecar) and know that if the engine blew up, I could find an upgraded one for cheap and put it in myself without difficulty. Not everyone wants to do this and I always own an extra car so one can go down indefinitely without putting me out.
If I found a well kept 88 BMW M3 for what I sold mine for in 1997, I'd buy it without hesitation. That boat's sailed and ones in the condition and miles I sold it for are now over a hundred grand.
But I'm very well versed in Hondas (I owned a CRX racecar) and know that if the engine blew up, I could find an upgraded one for cheap and put it in myself without difficulty. Not everyone wants to do this and I always own an extra car so one can go down indefinitely without putting me out.
If I found a well kept 88 BMW M3 for what I sold mine for in 1997, I'd buy it without hesitation. That boat's sailed and ones in the condition and miles I sold it for are now over a hundred grand.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
New cars are not important to us but I am too lazy to shop for a used car, it seems to require too much mental energy to evaluate all possible issues. So I always buy new and keep, it's easy to get 15 - 20 years out of a Toyota. With a couple of cars around the house a whiff of the new car smell every 7 to 10 years is enough.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
No. personally if you're going to buy used, the sweet spot is 3 years old. Then keep it for 7. Best combination of modern features and safety with less depreciation.jco wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:10 am What is the maximum age of a used car you would consider and why?
So to repeat my original question in a slightly more specific way, would you generally consider purchasing a low mileage vehicle that was more than 10 years old? If so, what are your limits? What are your personal experiences in this regard?
And now is a terrible time to buy a used car, prices are sky high. Might want to buy new for now.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
OP,
1) I never buy used car. I only buy new car.
2) I had a 2006 Nissan Altima and 2014 Altima. I gave the 2014 Altima to my daughter since she won't buy a new car.
3) My 2006 Altima has about 100K miles and we only drive around the neighborhood with that car.
4) If and when that 2006 Altima need a major repair, we will buy another new car at about 20 to 25K unless I see value in buying a hybrid or electric SUV.
5) I am old enough to see value in the latest safety feature of the new cars.
KlangFool
1) I never buy used car. I only buy new car.
2) I had a 2006 Nissan Altima and 2014 Altima. I gave the 2014 Altima to my daughter since she won't buy a new car.
3) My 2006 Altima has about 100K miles and we only drive around the neighborhood with that car.
4) If and when that 2006 Altima need a major repair, we will buy another new car at about 20 to 25K unless I see value in buying a hybrid or electric SUV.
5) I am old enough to see value in the latest safety feature of the new cars.
KlangFool
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
It depends on the circumstances. I just bought a replacement for my 2002 as a few issues beyond normal maintenance cropped up for the first time in its history. I fixed the biggest issue, but due to the time involved, my wife mandated for further issues, I either pay a mechanic or replace the car.
I started my shopping at 10 years old, and gradually drifted newer, because I already had cash set aside for options including a new car if I desired, and I want to have high confidence in getting in the ballpark a decade or more of reliable use from a car. Had my budget been tighter, I would have focused mostly on around 10 years old.
I would have been content to keep driving it for another couple of years, but between my wife's input and the allure of newness, I gave in and bought a very lightly used 2020. The newness was not because I was at all uncomfortable with anything older, but because from my price comparisons with a range of ages, the differences in cost per mile of expected remaining life were modest, and after quite a bit of research, the reported driving experience with the model and generation I bought appealed to me, and was affirmed by test driving.
Several seals are leaking on the old car, by the way. It's a minor issue to me. I top off the oil and coolant periodically, and wipe up some of the visible fluid. This was another item I'd like to fix, except for limited personal time, or low value return for the cost if I were to have a shop do it.
So I seriously considered a 19 year old car. However, that was in part because I knew it's history and had an idea what potential issues to be on the lookout for. I was not going to buy a car that old unless it was all I could afford.
I haven't sold the old car yet, and even have still been driving it a little for the opportunity to compare and contrast. While on the whole, it is a nice upgrade, my biggest gripe with the newer car is the reduced visibility. I don't understand why small windows are suddenly a fad. It has a rear camera, and another for the passenger-side blind spot, but even with the cameras, I rate the overall visibility better for the older car. I see no good reason manufacturers can't offer nice windows and a backup camera.
I started my shopping at 10 years old, and gradually drifted newer, because I already had cash set aside for options including a new car if I desired, and I want to have high confidence in getting in the ballpark a decade or more of reliable use from a car. Had my budget been tighter, I would have focused mostly on around 10 years old.
I would have been content to keep driving it for another couple of years, but between my wife's input and the allure of newness, I gave in and bought a very lightly used 2020. The newness was not because I was at all uncomfortable with anything older, but because from my price comparisons with a range of ages, the differences in cost per mile of expected remaining life were modest, and after quite a bit of research, the reported driving experience with the model and generation I bought appealed to me, and was affirmed by test driving.
Several seals are leaking on the old car, by the way. It's a minor issue to me. I top off the oil and coolant periodically, and wipe up some of the visible fluid. This was another item I'd like to fix, except for limited personal time, or low value return for the cost if I were to have a shop do it.
So I seriously considered a 19 year old car. However, that was in part because I knew it's history and had an idea what potential issues to be on the lookout for. I was not going to buy a car that old unless it was all I could afford.
I haven't sold the old car yet, and even have still been driving it a little for the opportunity to compare and contrast. While on the whole, it is a nice upgrade, my biggest gripe with the newer car is the reduced visibility. I don't understand why small windows are suddenly a fad. It has a rear camera, and another for the passenger-side blind spot, but even with the cameras, I rate the overall visibility better for the older car. I see no good reason manufacturers can't offer nice windows and a backup camera.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
3 years ago today I bought a 2006 Tacoma Pre-Runner with 54,000 miles, so 12 years and low mileage.
The used Jeep Cherokee I bought before that one was also over 10 years old, and had around 57,000 when I bought it.
That's around the limit I set when shopping, 10 years, give or take, and under 60,000 miles. I figure with only 6000 per year, it probably wasn't abused, probably got taken care of. Very happy with both purchases. The mileage and condition of the vehicle is more important to me than the age, so I wouldn't balk at 15 year old vehicle in good condition with the same mileage.
Sometime in the 90s I bought a 25+ year old classic sports car, but that's not what you're talking about.
As an extra note, I bought a small used pickup back in the 90s (Mazda B2000), 2 classic sports cars (Karmann Ghia), the above mentioned Jeep & Tacoma, and the total purchase price combined is about $30,000. Still have the one Ghia & the Tacoma, gave 2 of the others away, traded in the Jeep on the Tacoma for almost nothing. Over the years, I did have some significant repairs on some of them, but I always considered that the repairs were waaaay cheaper than buying a different vehicle. In retrospect, wouldn't change a single decision.
TNWoods
The used Jeep Cherokee I bought before that one was also over 10 years old, and had around 57,000 when I bought it.
That's around the limit I set when shopping, 10 years, give or take, and under 60,000 miles. I figure with only 6000 per year, it probably wasn't abused, probably got taken care of. Very happy with both purchases. The mileage and condition of the vehicle is more important to me than the age, so I wouldn't balk at 15 year old vehicle in good condition with the same mileage.
Sometime in the 90s I bought a 25+ year old classic sports car, but that's not what you're talking about.
As an extra note, I bought a small used pickup back in the 90s (Mazda B2000), 2 classic sports cars (Karmann Ghia), the above mentioned Jeep & Tacoma, and the total purchase price combined is about $30,000. Still have the one Ghia & the Tacoma, gave 2 of the others away, traded in the Jeep on the Tacoma for almost nothing. Over the years, I did have some significant repairs on some of them, but I always considered that the repairs were waaaay cheaper than buying a different vehicle. In retrospect, wouldn't change a single decision.
TNWoods
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
One way of measuring car safety is by looking at the driver death rate per million registered vehicles.foamypirate wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:24 am
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel - 96k miles (original injectors...knock on wood!)
According to some here, I probably have a death wish because I have a vehicle that's older than 3 years old and doesn't have 30,000 little nannies watching over me. Doesn't phase me. Can't live life in fear. I'm also not about to fork out 50k+ for a new equivalent Silverado or 70k+ for a new Corvette...
You can get the statics on this web site.
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-dea ... -and-model
There are a lot of different Silverado models and yours was not listed, probably because there were not enough of them made to get reliable statistics. Here are the numbers for a different Silverado model.
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 153
2017 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 32
For that model the driver is five times more likely to die in a 2002 than in a 2017. Car safety has improved a lot in the last 20 years and getting ESC in trucks and SUVs makes a huge difference.
You don't put very many miles on the truck so I can see where that could be acceptable but especially for a car that you are driving a lot it is important to at least know what the tradeoffs are.
For comparison the 4Runner which you have a lot more miles on is actually really good.
(2014-2017) Toyota 4Runner 4WD Driver death rate 13
At least on average you are actually driving pretty safe cars.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Just to frame this in another perspective - both of these numbers are a tiny fraction of 1 million. By upgrading to the newer Silverado, your death odds decrease to 0.003% from 0.015%. Your survival odds in either case are essentially 99.99%. The difference is material in rigorous statistical analysis, but probably not in real life.Watty wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:58 am
One way of measuring car safety is by looking at the driver death rate per million registered vehicles.
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 153
2017 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 32
For that model the driver is five times more likely to die in a 2002 than in a 2017. Car safety has improved a lot in the last 20 years and getting ESC in trucks and SUVs makes a huge difference.
With that being said, it would still make sense to be extra cautious when dealing with life and death odds, and we should also adjust our analysis to include accidents that don't result in death, but just injuries or financial damage.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I wonder what the 2002 vs 2017 Corolla death rates are. In other words, maybe vehicle heft(Silverado vs Corolla) might be more important in safety than new technology. Or not.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
If you're willing and able to complete almost any repairs that might be required yourself, or otherwise have access to repairs for only the cost of parts, and don't care about newer features, then what you're suggesting might be practical.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I own a 35 year old "used car", but at this point it's more of a classic than a used car. That car is Theseus' ship, with very little remaining of what came with the car originally- it's new or rebuilt parts on an original chassis (which has also been modified and repainted).
Once a car gets older, they become less fungible. It's all about the specific history of that car. A car that has been driven regularly but not too many miles and lovingly maintained is a very different proposition than an ultra high mile example.
Anyhow, for a daily driver, I would probably draw the line at around 15 years. Not because an older car can't be reasonably reliable, but because I think it's worth it for the safety benefits (not just features themselves, but better structural design). Cars tend to bottom out their depreciation in the 10-15 year range, so you tend not to get much off by going 15+
I'd also say that older cars make more sense for people who can turn a wrench. Especially with older mass market cars, the biggest expense is not parts- it's labor. Something like a leaky rear main seal could be $20 in parts but $2,000 in labor (it's often an engine-out job). Up to you whether your situation allow that.
Once a car gets older, they become less fungible. It's all about the specific history of that car. A car that has been driven regularly but not too many miles and lovingly maintained is a very different proposition than an ultra high mile example.
Anyhow, for a daily driver, I would probably draw the line at around 15 years. Not because an older car can't be reasonably reliable, but because I think it's worth it for the safety benefits (not just features themselves, but better structural design). Cars tend to bottom out their depreciation in the 10-15 year range, so you tend not to get much off by going 15+
I'd also say that older cars make more sense for people who can turn a wrench. Especially with older mass market cars, the biggest expense is not parts- it's labor. Something like a leaky rear main seal could be $20 in parts but $2,000 in labor (it's often an engine-out job). Up to you whether your situation allow that.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
My current daily driver is a 95 Toyota landcruiser. I bought it for $2500 with 210k miles. It has 245k now and I've got 10x the purchase price into it now, but it's heavily modified for off road use.
It will be replaced by an 05 BMW x5 that I paid $850 for. It needs probably $2k in parts. I do all my own mechanics.
Wife drives an 07 Honda pilot she got new when in college, her parents bought it. It has 170k miles. I'll throw parts at it till 300k miles.
It will be replaced by an 05 BMW x5 that I paid $850 for. It needs probably $2k in parts. I do all my own mechanics.
Wife drives an 07 Honda pilot she got new when in college, her parents bought it. It has 170k miles. I'll throw parts at it till 300k miles.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I have referred to the IIHS data for years for a sense of how vehicles seem to compare. One thing I have been realizing the more I look at the data is how far short it falls of an accurate picture of safety.Watty wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:58 am One way of measuring car safety is by looking at the driver death rate per million registered vehicles.
You can get the statics on this web site.
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-dea ... -and-model
There are a lot of different Silverado models and yours was not listed, probably because there were not enough of them made to get reliable statistics. Here are the numbers for a different Silverado model.
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 153
2017 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 32
For that model the driver is five times more likely to die in a 2002 than in a 2017. Car safety has improved a lot in the last 20 years and getting ESC in trucks and SUVs makes a huge difference.
For example, according to IIHS, from the 2011 report to the 2020 report, the driver fatality rate for all vehicles declined from 48 deaths to 36 deaths per million vehicle-years. Based on that trend and the change in DOT registered vehicles over an equivalent time period (2010-2019), the total number of fatalities would be expected to have dropped from 32,999 to 26,932. Instead, it increased to 36,096!
The data also appear to be very noisy. For the most dramatic example, the VW Golf fared somewhat poorly in the 2017 report, with 63 deaths/million vehicle years. In the 2020 report, although the Golf had been refreshed, it was not a complete redesign, and crash test performance was similar. Yet, in the 2020 report, this compact car appeared to have become the safest car you could buy with a rate of 0 deaths/million vehicle years.
The noise can often be seen within a model and year, as well. The 2002 Silverado 1500 2WD is listed at 153. The identical GMC Sierra 1500 2WD is 97. The extended cab, 4wd is at 71.
I still like the data to look for trends, but it's not as easy to use comparatively as I used to think, so I mainly focus my safety concerns on my own driving habits, including defensive driving, and let the vehicle safety evolution catch up with me when I upgrade for other reasons.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Does a data set like this take into account the areas/demographics who drive those different types of vehicles? My guess is no and therefore I don't think provides a true picture of which is safer -but as you mention and someone lese touched on - overall I don't think anyone is going to say those options are death trapsWatty wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:58 amOne way of measuring car safety is by looking at the driver death rate per million registered vehicles.foamypirate wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:24 am
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Duramax Diesel - 96k miles (original injectors...knock on wood!)
According to some here, I probably have a death wish because I have a vehicle that's older than 3 years old and doesn't have 30,000 little nannies watching over me. Doesn't phase me. Can't live life in fear. I'm also not about to fork out 50k+ for a new equivalent Silverado or 70k+ for a new Corvette...
You can get the statics on this web site.
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-dea ... -and-model
There are a lot of different Silverado models and yours was not listed, probably because there were not enough of them made to get reliable statistics. Here are the numbers for a different Silverado model.
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 153
2017 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 2WD Driver death rate 32
For that model the driver is five times more likely to die in a 2002 than in a 2017. Car safety has improved a lot in the last 20 years and getting ESC in trucks and SUVs makes a huge difference.
You don't put very many miles on the truck so I can see where that could be acceptable but especially for a car that you are driving a lot it is important to at least know what the tradeoffs are.
For comparison the 4Runner which you have a lot more miles on is actually really good.
(2014-2017) Toyota 4Runner 4WD Driver death rate 13
At least on average you are actually driving pretty safe cars.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
True but that is just one for one year. There are all sorts of ways to play with the numbers but over 30 year of driving that 0.015% would increase to 0.45% (.015*30) which is roughly a 1 in 222 chance of being killed as a driver. The 0.003% would be 0.09% over 30 years which is roughly 1 in 1,111.hi_there wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:39 am
Just to frame this in another perspective - both of these numbers are a tiny fraction of 1 million. By upgrading to the newer Silverado, your death odds decrease to 0.003% from 0.015%. Your survival odds in either case are essentially 99.99%. The difference is material in rigorous statistical analysis, but probably not in real life.
As others have pointed out there are lots of limitations with that web site and the statistics and the death rates can also be affected other factors like driver behavior and the use of cell phones. If you are so inclined you can dig through the data to get a better understanding of it.
I don't recall where I read it but I also recall reading that over the long term one of the huge factors in the decline of car fatalities is that ambulances and medical care has also improved dramatically. Many people are surviving crashes now that would have been fatal a few decades ago. In a local Facebook group someone posted about a bad accident with multiple injuries that happened near my house and they mentioned that it took about 7 minutes for an ambulance to reach the scene. That was no doubt a long 7 minutes for the people involved but someone likely called 911 with a seconds of the accident on their cell phone. 30 years ago it could have taken someone longer than 7 minutes to even find a phone to call for help.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I have bought a few cars at 10 to 13 years old. All had less than 100K miles,
20K, 50K and 90K miles.
All were buicks. 2 dies at about 140K miles.
The 2000 model with 20K miles is still running at 135K miles, 11 years later .
20K, 50K and 90K miles.
All were buicks. 2 dies at about 140K miles.
The 2000 model with 20K miles is still running at 135K miles, 11 years later .
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
New 2021 Chevy Spark under $17k. New car warranty, backup camera, functional airbags, 30/38 mpg. Chevy quality is good. Skip the 10 year/100k mile POS.
Disclaimer: I'm not very smart, and this is just my hypothesis.
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
The cars the OP mentioned considering are all compact to mid-size sedans and crossover SUV's, not sub-compact hatchbacks. It is possible to get a 5-6 year old Chevy Cruze for their stated budget, though.
A 10 year old car is generally mid-life, not a POS. It probably won't have a backup camera, but will likely have front and side airbags and stability control.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I’d bet there are a lot of low mileage older Buicks due to demographics. Originally bought by older people who still drive, but barely. Until they don’t.MathWizard wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:56 pm I have bought a few cars at 10 to 13 years old. All had less than 100K miles,
20K, 50K and 90K miles.
All were buicks. 2 dies at about 140K miles.
The 2000 model with 20K miles is still running at 135K miles, 11 years later .
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Hmm. This is a good point about exogenous factors. What comes to mind is that other vehicles are becoming better at avoiding and mitigating accidents. So, in other words you are safer even in an older vehicle today, as you can free ride off other drivers buying collision avoidance technology.Watty wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:48 pm
I don't recall where I read it but I also recall reading that over the long term one of the huge factors in the decline of car fatalities is that ambulances and medical care has also improved dramatically. Many people are surviving crashes now that would have been fatal a few decades ago. In a local Facebook group someone posted about a bad accident with multiple injuries that happened near my house and they mentioned that it took about 7 minutes for an ambulance to reach the scene. That was no doubt a long 7 minutes for the people involved but someone likely called 911 with a seconds of the accident on their cell phone. 30 years ago it could have taken someone longer than 7 minutes to even find a phone to call for help.
Anyone reading this, please don't let this affect you - just go buy the safest car please.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
There are usually so many posts to these threads that I don't comment, but I just wanted to add one thing. I have found that there are fewer and fewer private party sales, most people just trade in their car and buy a new/used one at the dealer. Due to this and the fact that dealers need to make some margin on a car, I prefer to reduce my transactions and buy as new as I can afford and drove them until they aren't safe. I'm in the the rust belt, so 12 years old is about the end of life. My 2006 Town and Country is getting pretty rusty, I found that private party 5 years ago. So my last purchase was a 2015 Odyssey, from a dealer...
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I'm driving my 11-yr-old Toyota Venza and I'm totally fine with driving it on for more years because I know well of it.
Buying a 10-yr-old car from a nobody?
No way.
Buying a 10-yr-old car from a nobody?
No way.
Time in market beats timing the market.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Trying to figure same thing myself, and there isn't one answer. Older cars are simpler, so less likely to break down. No turbo. No auto start/stop. Less electronics and potentially easier to fix. You do give up latest gadgets and safety enhancements, but when those break or malfunction, they can be annoying or expensive to fix. Also depends on the brand and model reliability as well as the mileage and condition of the specific vehicle.jco wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:10 amThe Camry still runs really well, but it has recently started leaking oil, and more concerning, transmission fluid, at a steady rate. We'd like to replace our Camry with another smallish car (probably a Honda Civic, Accord, CRV; Toyota Corolla, Camry, or RAV4; Subaru Imprezza, Forester, Legacy, or Outback). We have about $13,000 to spend, so a close to new car is probably not workable unless we go with a (generally) less reliable brand.
I wouldn't use an arbitrary $13k to spend as the main criteria. Do you have bad credit or other finance problem? Instead, look at the total cost and oldness you want to accept. Total cost of newer may be more upfront, but over a similar period may not be that much different. Or you might find a very good older year or mileage car for $5000 and be willing to accept a potential major expense or two.
I know folks still driving cars that are 20+ years old, and they're still reliable and cheap to maintain.
As far as the Camry leaking oil, how much and from where? Are you finding it on the ground or seeing where its coming out? At what rate? If you're not filling quarts, you might ask whether stuff like Bar's Leaks 1420 Transmission Stop Leak https://www.amazon.com/Bars-Leaks-1420- ... B00754YK2S or other potions might buy you some time. https://carcarehunt.com/oils-fluids/bes ... eview.html
If it's not making a mess, and there isn't anything else wrong, people sometimes add oil regularly like gas until they get tired of that. A few cars used to drink a quart of oil on a regular basis as routine maintenance. How much and how often are you topping off?
I would consider the Impreza and other sedans for best value. I would avoid the other Subaru models unless you need AWD. IMO, if you don't need it, AWD is a cost liability (mileage drag, maintenance) with little benefit.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Thank you all for the answers. I'm still not sure what we're going to do. I've seen interesting arguments made to support opposite viewpoints, with both having legitimate points!
I do particularly want to thank everyone for the comments about safety. Of course, safety has been important to us, but we probably haven't appreciated it enough. And with a teenager coming of driving age soon, it's definitely another factor to weigh seriously.
I do particularly want to thank everyone for the comments about safety. Of course, safety has been important to us, but we probably haven't appreciated it enough. And with a teenager coming of driving age soon, it's definitely another factor to weigh seriously.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I bought a 10 year old BMW convertible with 80k plus miles on it. That was 9 years ago. I'm still happy with that decision. I wanted a convertible.
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
The oil leak is annoying but manageable. The transmission leak is a bit scary. I did not see the evidence of a leak until the transmission started slipping. I literally put in two quarts to get it up to the right level. And it was leaking quite a bit onto the ground in the days after as I watched it. After filling the fluid, it seems okay. I actually did put some of the Bar's leaks stuff in the transmission, but it's too early to tell how effective it will be. I haven't had it on a lift to see where the leak is, but it appears to be under where the transmission fluid is poured because I can't see any visual evidence of a leak except what's on the ground (now covered with cardboard).inbox788 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:01 am As far as the Camry leaking oil, how much and from where? Are you finding it on the ground or seeing where its coming out? At what rate? If you're not filling quarts, you might ask whether stuff like Bar's Leaks 1420 Transmission Stop Leak https://www.amazon.com/Bars-Leaks-1420- ... B00754YK2S or other potions might buy you some time. https://carcarehunt.com/oils-fluids/bes ... eview.html
If it's not making a mess, and there isn't anything else wrong, people sometimes add oil regularly like gas until they get tired of that. A few cars used to drink a quart of oil on a regular basis as routine maintenance. How much and how often are you topping off?
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
It really comes down to having both interest and ability to d-i-y whatever repairs are needed or not. My one car is 16 years old now and has begun dripping some engine oil, but so far just a few drops. It appears to be coming from the oil pan gasket. Plus I haven't drive in more than a few hundred miles in a year now. I'm not a fan of little drops on the cardboard I keep under the engine in the garage though. Different people will have different tolerances for things like that. As a result of a previous repair the fuel gage reads 1/16th low and that annoys me too. Some people wouldn't care at all; some would either fix the car back to new standards regardless of repair cost or difficulty or buy a new car just because of issues like these. I don't think it's a right or wrong situation unless the car is in bad enough repair to affect other people with its dripping/smoking/noise whatever.jco wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:36 am Thank you all for the answers. I'm still not sure what we're going to do. I've seen interesting arguments made to support opposite viewpoints, with both having legitimate points!
I do particularly want to thank everyone for the comments about safety. Of course, safety has been important to us, but we probably haven't appreciated it enough. And with a teenager coming of driving age soon, it's definitely another factor to weigh seriously.
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
In another recent thread someone pointed out this link about used cars for teenage drivers, but it is from last year so some of the prices may have changed.
https://www.consumerreports.org/media-r ... for-teens/
and there is also this link of recommendations for safe new cars.
https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks
- JupiterJones
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
I don't think a 10+ year-old car represents any particular bargain compared to a newer (or possibly even brand-new) car. And I say this as the satisfied owner of a now 17-year-old car.
For me, it would simply come down to what I could afford. (As in actually purchase... there's a big different between being able to afford a car and being able to merely afford payments on the car.)
If I needed a car and only had enough dough set aside for a 10-year-old car from a reliable maker, I wouldn't have any problem with it. But if I had a bit more and could get a newer one, I would.
And if I could pull off brand-new, I probably would. Not because of fancy-pants safety features, but because used just doesn't seem to save you as much money as it used to back in the day.
Either way, I'm keeping that sucker for as long as I can.
For me, it would simply come down to what I could afford. (As in actually purchase... there's a big different between being able to afford a car and being able to merely afford payments on the car.)
If I needed a car and only had enough dough set aside for a 10-year-old car from a reliable maker, I wouldn't have any problem with it. But if I had a bit more and could get a newer one, I would.
And if I could pull off brand-new, I probably would. Not because of fancy-pants safety features, but because used just doesn't seem to save you as much money as it used to back in the day.
Either way, I'm keeping that sucker for as long as I can.
"Stay on target! Stay on target!"
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
If you can afford a new car. Do that
Retired 2019. So far, so good. I want to wake up every morning. But I want to die in my sleep. Just another conundrum. I think the solution might be afternoon naps ;)
Re: 10+ year old used cars?
Spending a big piece of change on a car with little residual value is exactly the kind of dilemma I wish to avoid. You can buy good 10 year old cars with 100k miles for under $10k or 15 year old 150k miles under $5k, but if you have to spend $3k on a transmission, it's not worth it. Just have to decide your risk and luck, but I've come across a number of promising 15 year old 150k (some around 100k) sedans in the $3k range that I've been considering taking a risk. It's for a new teen driver who is only driving local and putting less than 10k in the next few years and likely wants to switch cars by then. The other extreme is buying a new Corolla or Civic for ~$20k and driving it to death, but, new 3 year lease or purchase and potential early sale doesn't make that much sense for the little amount driven. And add the large number of electric vehicles that will be hitting the showroom in the next few years, and these older cars will likely depreciate even more.jco wrote: ↑Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:41 amThe oil leak is annoying but manageable. The transmission leak is a bit scary. I did not see the evidence of a leak until the transmission started slipping. I literally put in two quarts to get it up to the right level. And it was leaking quite a bit onto the ground in the days after as I watched it. After filling the fluid, it seems okay. I actually did put some of the Bar's leaks stuff in the transmission, but it's too early to tell how effective it will be. I haven't had it on a lift to see where the leak is, but it appears to be under where the transmission fluid is poured because I can't see any visual evidence of a leak except what's on the ground (now covered with cardboard).
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Re: 10+ year old used cars?
When you are talking about a car that is 10+ years old, the actual model is less important.
My questions are:
1) Who owned it And how do they drive?
2) Was it properly maintained?
3) What does my mechanic think about the condition of the car?
4) Is the car priced low enough that I can repair everything that I need to operate it safely?
Ii have a 30 year old Corolla and a 15 year old Focus in the neighborhood that I would buy if offered at a reasonable price. I know their owner and their history. There are a couple of later model GM vehicles that I would not accept if given. I know that they have not been maintained.
I would accept an older car here in the Southwest as there is no rust on native Arizona cars. However, I would be wary of 10 year old cars in the rust belt.
The key thing is to get the car checked out ny a good, trusted mechanic. Personally, I have had more hidden problems on cars purchased from private parties than in the used car lots in new car dealerships.