Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
CygX1
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:29 am

Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by CygX1 »

In 2019 my younger son had to have significant oral surgery to remove an infected tooth followed by an implant. It was difficult to get the appointment. When my wife arrived on the day of the scheduled surgery she was presented with this notice, which I have a photograph:

ATTENTION ALL PATIENTS

Effective May 1, 2009, Federal Trade Commission rules require that we obtain a photo identification and social security number for all patients and those financially responsible for their treatment. If they wish to pay by credit card, check, and/or request our office to file an insurance claim on their behalf. THIS IS PART OF A FEDERAL INITIATIVE TO REDUCE IDENTITY THEFT. If you are unwilling or unable to comply with this Federal law, you will be expected to pay cash in full prior to being treated for services.

My wife called me that day asking what to do, because I am generally reluctant to give out SS#s. I was pretty sure this was bogus, that there is no such Federal law. But our kid needed the surgery, and we weren't going to pay in cash, so she gave them her and his social security numbers.

Fast forward today: we got their formal letter admitting they've been hacked, and sure enough they got her SS# and financial information. They tell us, "the Practice takes the security of information in our care very seriously,"and offer one year of Experian credit monitoring.

I'm p*ssed. I'm pretty sure their original claim of an FTC law was false.

We will freeze our credit reports, and sign up for the service, but what else can we do to hold them accountable?
lazynovice
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 pm
Location: Denver area. Former Texan.

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by lazynovice »

Figure out if they lied on the flyer and if so, report them to your state attorney general and the medical board.
helloeveryone
Posts: 1285
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by helloeveryone »

CygX1 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:03 pm In 2019 my younger son had to have significant oral surgery to remove an infected tooth followed by an implant. It was difficult to get the appointment. When my wife arrived on the day of the scheduled surgery she was presented with this notice, which I have a photograph:

ATTENTION ALL PATIENTS

Effective May 1, 2009, Federal Trade Commission rules require that we obtain a photo identification and social security number for all patients and those financially responsible for their treatment. If they wish to pay by credit card, check, and/or request our office to file an insurance claim on their behalf. THIS IS PART OF A FEDERAL INITIATIVE TO REDUCE IDENTITY THEFT. If you are unwilling or unable to comply with this Federal law, you will be expected to pay cash in full prior to being treated for services.

My wife called me that day asking what to do, because I am generally reluctant to give out SS#s. I was pretty sure this was bogus, that there is no such Federal law. But our kid needed the surgery, and we weren't going to pay in cash, so she gave them her and his social security numbers.

Fast forward today: we got their formal letter admitting they've been hacked, and sure enough they got her SS# and financial information. They tell us, "the Practice takes the security of information in our care very seriously,"and offer one year of Experian credit monitoring.

I'm p*ssed. I'm pretty sure their original claim of an FTC law was false.

We will freeze our credit reports, and sign up for the service, but what else can we do to hold them accountable?
Not an expert but I was curious so did a little google search.
I cut and pasted part of what a random practice on the internet wrote out and this came up - http://stuarteye.com/pdfs/Red_Flag_Rule_2.pdf

When I search for “social” - it really says they need two identifiers. one of which could be social #. I suspect the practice you went to chose to ask for a social # but didn’t really interpret the rules as they were written?

Definitely not ideal and frustrating on your end as a consumer.
anoop
Posts: 3930
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:33 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by anoop »

Posts like this make me sad. That information will probably be available on the dark web and can be used against you forever. And all they provide is one measly year of credit monitoring.
Prahasaurus
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:02 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Prahasaurus »

All centralized entities will be hacked, eventually. They are honey pots, by definition. Sorry for this, you should be furious.
Asset Allocation: VT
CurlyDave
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by CurlyDave »

Talk to an attorney -- before you accept the credit monitoring. You may give up many rights if you accept that.
Answering a question is easy -- asking the right question is the hard part.
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 9373
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Nate79 »

Look on the bright side. With so many hacks in the recent few years all that information was probably already out there in the wild anyways. :twisted:
runninginvestor
Posts: 1796
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:00 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by runninginvestor »

Sorry this happened it is really annoying. I never understand laws like this claiming to help protect identity theft, and then causing millions of attack vectors to be opened (all the offices that require this, if this was an actual law).

The above point about the free credit monitoring should be looked at. Often you give up any rights when accepting. The contrarian point would be that I'm not sure giving up your rights mean anything as I don't know how difficult it would be to prove that they were at fault if something happened.

In the future, unless a staff asks for the social security number in person, I'd not put it in any form. I usually leave the forms blank where it asks, and I don't believe they've ever tried following up to get that information.
mptfan
Posts: 7218
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:58 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by mptfan »

Their claim that it was legally required was false. This is one of my pet peeves...when someone falsely tells me that I am legally required to do something as a rouse to compel me to do something that they want me to do. This often happens when corporations have a corporate policy and they attempt to justify their policy by claiming it is legally required, and I think sometimes the front line employees are told that it is legally required so they actually believe it's true when they tell the customer.
squirm
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by squirm »

Didn't like almost everyone's ssn get hacked from the Equifax breach? I guess, welcome to the club.
armeliusc
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:40 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by armeliusc »

I am sorry this happened. I would just freeze all credit reports and move on. There is nothing else practical one can do.

I always refuse to provide SSN on any form, for me, my children, spouse, etc. They can have driver license, insurance card, and even call the insurer to verify me if they want. That should be enough. I just leave it blank on the form. If they ask, I'd either say I've been a victim of data breach and will not provide my SSN. If they insist, I'm prepared to walk out. No one ever ask so far.
Freefun
Posts: 1237
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:55 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Freefun »

I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating incident.

I'm of the opinion that everyone's SS # is on the dark web. The #'s are nonsensical with zero security built in. It's just a matter of when someone wants to do anything with them. Personally I've been declared deceased and also claiming unemployment insurance (seemingly while deceased).

Reasonable precautions (at least for me):

1. freeze credit in all 3 agencies.
2. establish fraud alerts in all 3.
3. periodically check them to make sure still frozen.
4. when in doubt contact the agency and ask for confirmation in writing (some of their websites are terrible).
5. get pin from IRS
6. periodically check credit scores
7. keep redundant brokerages / savings accounts (could be simple as having emergency $ at a different company). This is so you have time to wait if your "plan A" firm gets hacked.

There are companies that provide various identify theft services but I've yet to learn of any that do things that you can't do yourself. For me, getting yet another company involved is yet one more possible point of failure, hacking etc.
Remember when you wanted what you currently have?
Savermom
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed May 20, 2020 12:32 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Savermom »

So sorry this happened to you! You should freeze their credit reports. You need to do it with all 3 bureaus. If it makes you feel any better, I agree with the others, unfortunately a lot of our info. is already out there due to the Equifax hack, etc.

Also have two factor authentication on all financial accounts. I also have the IRS PIN to file a return.
User avatar
8foot7
Posts: 4427
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:29 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by 8foot7 »

I would suggest filing a complaint with the FTC, the state medical board, and the BBB for this oral surgeon. There is no law compelling you provide to them, or them to collect from you, your social security number. Any surgeon lying to customers for his or her business' benefit deserves to be reported, and any surgeon collecting SSNs under a false legal pretense who then fails to properly secure that data deserves to be penalized as well.

In the future, when I don't want to disclose my SSN but don't want to make a big deal about it, I always use an obviously fake number, like 123-45-6789 or 999-99-9999. Sometimes computer systems are set up to require entries in a field and the receptionist entering your information may not be able to proceed with an empty space. You may also choose to use an asterisk on the paper form after your field and write at the bottom of the page something like, "*As a matter of personal policy and for security purposes I do not disclose my social security number in the ordinary course of business."
alfaspider
Posts: 4816
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by alfaspider »

Nate79 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:36 am Look on the bright side. With so many hacks in the recent few years all that information was probably already out there in the wild anyways. :twisted:
At this point, I I'm pretty certain that the name, address, primary phone number, social security number, credit card, and driver's license number for essentially every adult in the U.S. is available for purchase on the dark web. Whether you get picked for identity theft is just a question of whether your name gets picked off the list.
Flashes1
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 7:43 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Flashes1 »

I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
Super Hans
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:18 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Super Hans »

Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
Nowizard
Posts: 4842
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Nowizard »

Having been in healthcare, unless things have changed more recently, the information requested is unlikely to be a legal requirement. The purpose of multiple identifiers is more to assure the ability to contact you if payment is not received. There are often conflicts between healthcare providers and administrative policies of practices, something that leads to many providers simply acting as if they do not know anything about charges if a patient comments while some peruse the books after hours since compensation is important. Little is said about the fact that some practices establish expected numbers of patients seen daily and give bonuses for exceeding expectations. This is not meant to be a particular criticism, just a comment that there are sacred cows in many industries.

Tim
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28860
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Watty »

CygX1 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:03 pm We will freeze our credit reports.....
Everyone should really keep their credit reports frozen all the time and just unfreeze them when they need to apply for credit.
User avatar
gwe67
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by gwe67 »

Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am
Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
VTI 48%, VXUS 12%, BND 40%
User avatar
sperry8
Posts: 3065
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:25 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by sperry8 »

gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am
Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am
Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
:sharebeer
BH Contests: 23 #89 of 607 | 22 #512 of 674 | 21 #66 of 636 |20 #253/664 |19 #233/645 |18 #150/493 |17 #516/647 |16 #121/610 |15 #18/552 |14 #225/503 |13 #383/433 |12 #366/410 |11 #113/369 |10 #53/282
bogledogle
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by bogledogle »

Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
This is awesome! I never thought of this.

My new dentists office wanted to get my social too. I told them I will be happy to write a check if they provided a receipt stating they will reimburse me after they work it out with insurance. They backed off real quick.
iamlucky13
Posts: 3528
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:28 pm
Location: Western Washington

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by iamlucky13 »

I have always left SSN fields blank or entered N/A unless I can verify there is a legitimate basis for requesting the information - I was surprised last time I created a new bank account to find there was a new requirement for that action, but the bank cited the proper regulation, so I was able to verify it. So far, I haven't had any objections to this habit.
CygX1 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:03 pmEffective May 1, 2009, Federal Trade Commission rules require that we obtain a photo identification and social security number for all patients and those financially responsible for their treatment. If they wish to pay by credit card, check, and/or request our office to file an insurance claim on their behalf. THIS IS PART OF A FEDERAL INITIATIVE TO REDUCE IDENTITY THEFT.
That's ironic. They claimed that in order to prevent identity theft, they were required to do something that increases the risk of identity theft by creating additional points of compromise for identifying information.

Searching for FTC actions as of May 1, 2009, it appears they are referring to this "red flags program"
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... e-business

First of all, it does not mandate collecting social security numbers. It mandates having a written procedure to monitor for signs of identify theft. In some situations, such as businesses that perform credit checks, they may already be collecting social security numbers, and therefore it could be a data point to monitor for identity theft "red flags." It sounds like some doctor's offices wrote up policies that mirrored what financial institutions were doing.

Secondly, a decade ago, Congress and the president amended the rule to clarify it is not intended to apply to medical offices and similar businesses not normally considered to be financial institutions.
https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/o ... s-rule-law

If they merely asked for it without demanding it, there probably would not be much to be done in response. That they apparently spent nearly a decade misrepresenting their obligation to collect this information is too far. It may not be of major consequence since it may have been or could in the future be compromised by some other party, but that's hardly an excuse, and the more personal information gets leaked, the more likely it is to be compiled into a complete enough profile to be effectively abused.

Businesses have been flagrantly ignoring this reality for years. They should want nothing to do with information they don't need, but clearly they don't view it as a significant liability for them. It's clear they are not going to stop unless some meaningful action is taken. I'm not sure which the appropriate groups are to submit a complaint to, but short of the significant commitment of filing a lawsuit yourself, I would think the state attorney general, and possibly the FTC. I'm not sure a medical board is relevant since the issue is not related to quality of care.
Johnny Thinwallet
Posts: 454
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Johnny Thinwallet »

Question for others in this thread: how many folks have frozen the credit for their underage children? And if so, how much of a pain was it to mail in all the information to all 3 bureaus?

We received notice in the mail earlier this week that some medical information was breached related to my wife and son. Based on the provider and the fact that it's just them (and not me), I can pretty much deduce that the medical data related to my son's birth/wife's delivery is the data that was breached.

My son obviously did not have a SSN at the time of his birth, but that doesn't mean that the provider didn't later attach his SSN to that specific record. My wife's credit has been frozen (as has mine), but we have not yet frozen my son's credit due to the extra hoops involved.

Sadly, in our instance it seems that you can't even be literally born anymore without your data being hacked.
PVW
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:01 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by PVW »

Theft of personally identifiable information is such a frequent occurrence, getting riled up about it is as useful as complaining about the weather.

For those of you that provide fake Social Security Numbers, you are potentially causing problems for the owner of those fake numbers. How would you like to have your own SSN exposed because someone else is too passive to refuse to give out his/her own number?
TravelGeek
Posts: 4902
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by TravelGeek »

Plenty of people living (legally) in this country don't have a social security number.

https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10096.pdf

Assuming you don't plan on seeking care from this oral surgeon again, I would complain to everyone I could think of. Licensing boards, state AG, FTC, BBB, my insurance company, ....

Especially the FTC should be interested in what this business states about their rules.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/w ... tity-theft
Ask questions before giving out your Social Security number

Some organizations need your Social Security number to identify you. Those organizations include the IRS, your bank, and your employer. Organizations like these that do need your Social Security number won’t call, email, or text you to ask for it.

Other organizations that might ask you for your Social Security number might not really need it. Those organizations include a medical provider, a company, or your child’s school. Ask these questions before you give them your Social Security number:

Why do you need it?
How will you protect it?
Can you use a different identifier?
Can you use just the last four digits of my Social Security number?
JPM
Posts: 586
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:29 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by JPM »

Our hospital began to require two forms of identification after it was investigated by public aid for having billed for six deliveries in the same year for the same woman. Turned out, six different women used the same medicaid card for their OB services. Not that unusual for people to lend their insurance cards to friends in need, so specialists who do not know patients on first meeting may want to be sure they are not treating someone who has borrowed insurance cards and will get stiffed by the insurer. To protect the practice, they establish a policy of requiring proof of identity before treatment.
SrGrumpy
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by SrGrumpy »

Just give him a nasty Yelp review and move on.
runninginvestor
Posts: 1796
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:00 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by runninginvestor »

sperry8 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:54 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am
Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am
Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
:sharebeer
Isn't this illegal? Akin to falsifying information (if you have to sign saying the information is accurate to the best of your knowledge) as well as potentially using someone else's number by doing this, which can have a host of legal issues. Yeah, you can always claim that it was an honest mistake, but that's a risk as well.

I would strongly suggest OP or anyone else to not do this, deliberately!
valleyrock
Posts: 1129
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:12 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by valleyrock »

I leave SSN sections blank and if they ask, I maintain that it is not legally required. It's never been a problem. Of course, banks and such require them and in PA to register a car or get a driver's licence, they do indeed require a social security card. It's part of Homeland Security rules to make sure people can't get a driver's license illegally and then go to flight school, etc.

Wife and I have all 3 credit reports frozen, but indeed my teenage kids have not. I figure until they're 18, nobody could use their identities to get credit. But I guess soon we'll have to get through that and freeze their credit in a way that they know how to unfreeze it. What a pain.
User avatar
gwe67
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by gwe67 »

runninginvestor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:44 pm
sperry8 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:54 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am
Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am
Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
:sharebeer
Isn't this illegal? Akin to falsifying information (if you have to sign saying the information is accurate to the best of your knowledge) as well as potentially using someone else's number by doing this, which can have a host of legal issues. Yeah, you can always claim that it was an honest mistake, but that's a risk as well.

I would strongly suggest OP or anyone else to not do this, deliberately!
If you lie to me about your intents with my SSN, then I may have a hard time remembering the number correctly.
VTI 48%, VXUS 12%, BND 40%
FarmWife
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:07 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by FarmWife »

valleyrock wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:52 pm
Wife and I have all 3 credit reports frozen, but indeed my teenage kids have not. I figure until they're 18, nobody could use their identities to get credit. But I guess soon we'll have to get through that and freeze their credit in a way that they know how to unfreeze it. What a pain.
It is possible to use kids Socials for credit. There was a kid in the next county over who had to delay college a year because he found out his social had been used for identify theft and he couldn't get into school, no scholarships, it was a huge mess. I don't know how they found out, maybe the FAFSA? But he had a massive amount of debt under his name and had to get it straightened out. Likely a family member did it, but really it could be anyone if they have all your data. And since we can't see kids credit info without a million hoops (I don't understand this rule) anything can happen until they're 18. I have a note on my calendar to check my kids reports when they turn 18. I wish I knew the rest of that kid's story, but I don't know the family directly.
Impatience
Posts: 724
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:15 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Impatience »

Your ssn was probably already compromised anyway. Might as well just assume they all are.
runninginvestor
Posts: 1796
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:00 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by runninginvestor »

FarmWife wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:16 pm
valleyrock wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:52 pm
Wife and I have all 3 credit reports frozen, but indeed my teenage kids have not. I figure until they're 18, nobody could use their identities to get credit. But I guess soon we'll have to get through that and freeze their credit in a way that they know how to unfreeze it. What a pain.
It is possible to use kids Socials for credit. There was a kid in the next county over who had to delay college a year because he found out his social had been used for identify theft and he couldn't get into school, no scholarships, it was a huge mess. I don't know how they found out, maybe the FAFSA? But he had a massive amount of debt under his name and had to get it straightened out. Likely a family member did it, but really it could be anyone if they have all your data. And since we can't see kids credit info without a million hoops (I don't understand this rule) anything can happen until they're 18. I have a note on my calendar to check my kids reports when they turn 18. I wish I knew the rest of that kid's story, but I don't know the family directly.
I had siblings that one of our parents did a similar thing to. Fortunately I was the youngest so I think that's why I was spared. But my siblings had various utilities and rent in collections by the time they were in their teens. It all got fixed for them which is good. I think Experian has identity theft monitoring for kids, although I'm not sure how it works (if any different), and the cost.
Blue456
Posts: 2152
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:46 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Blue456 »

squirm wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:19 am Didn't like almost everyone's ssn get hacked from the Equifax breach? I guess, welcome to the club.
Yup. I think it was like half of Americans. After that I simply just froze all 3 of my credit accounts.
User avatar
obafgkm
Posts: 713
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:12 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by obafgkm »

I just say (particularly when asked about my kid's social security number) that "I can't remember it."
"I'm investing in stocks... chicken, beef, and vegetable. It's risky, but I know one day it'll pay off & I'll be a bouillonaire. Who knows, I might even open up a Broth IRA."
User avatar
8foot7
Posts: 4427
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:29 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by 8foot7 »

runninginvestor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:44 pm
sperry8 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:54 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am
Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am
Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
:sharebeer
Isn't this illegal? Akin to falsifying information (if you have to sign saying the information is accurate to the best of your knowledge) as well as potentially using someone else's number by doing this, which can have a host of legal issues. Yeah, you can always claim that it was an honest mistake, but that's a risk as well.

I would strongly suggest OP or anyone else to not do this, deliberately!
I am not sure it's illegal to intentionally misrepresent your SSN to a private party with no legitimate need to collect it, but just in case it is, that's why I offered the advice above to either use an obivously fake number or use a made-up number and call it out with an asterisk and a footnote explaining it isn't correct.

It may well be illegal to misrepresent your SSN to a government agency especially when it comes to receiving a benefit. But that is not the case here, and I am not in the general habit of lying to governments about things. But I can't imagine it's breaking a law to give some a false piece of information to someone if you are not defrauding them.
Super Hans
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:18 pm
Location: Washington, D.C.

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by Super Hans »

8foot7 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:40 am
runninginvestor wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:44 pm
sperry8 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:54 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am
Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am

+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
:sharebeer
Isn't this illegal? Akin to falsifying information (if you have to sign saying the information is accurate to the best of your knowledge) as well as potentially using someone else's number by doing this, which can have a host of legal issues. Yeah, you can always claim that it was an honest mistake, but that's a risk as well.

I would strongly suggest OP or anyone else to not do this, deliberately!
I am not sure it's illegal to intentionally misrepresent your SSN to a private party with no legitimate need to collect it, but just in case it is, that's why I offered the advice above to either use an obivously fake number or use a made-up number and call it out with an asterisk and a footnote explaining it isn't correct.

It may well be illegal to misrepresent your SSN to a government agency especially when it comes to receiving a benefit. But that is not the case here, and I am not in the general habit of lying to governments about things. But I can't imagine it's breaking a law to give some a false piece of information to someone if you are not defrauding them.
Maybe it's time for us to revisit our incarceration rate and think about early release for those non-violent offenders who have given fake SSNs to their dentists. In the interim, I'll continue enjoying the rush that comes with living within inches of the long arm of the law.
SrGrumpy
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by SrGrumpy »

gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one.
Gee, I hope all the people one digit removed from you don't adopt a similar policy.
PVW
Posts: 807
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 10:01 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by PVW »

8foot7 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:40 am I am not sure it's illegal to intentionally misrepresent your SSN to a private party with no legitimate need to collect it
The US Supreme Court agrees with you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flores-Fi ... ted_States
User avatar
gwe67
Posts: 1364
Joined: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:52 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by gwe67 »

SrGrumpy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:12 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one.
Gee, I hope all the people one digit removed from you don't adopt a similar policy.
If someone gave their real name and my SSN to their dentist it wouldn't affect me in any way. That wouldn't make me responsible for their debt. Their real name doesn't correlate with my SSN.
VTI 48%, VXUS 12%, BND 40%
TravelGeek
Posts: 4902
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by TravelGeek »

SrGrumpy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:12 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one.
Gee, I hope all the people one digit removed from you don't adopt a similar policy.
Perhaps the (voided) number of Mrs. Hilda Schrader Whitcher could be used instead of a one-off number that might belong to a living person.

https://www.ssa.gov/history/ssn/misused.html

I think “I don’t recall it at the moment” is probably the best solution.
SrGrumpy
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by SrGrumpy »

gwe67 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:20 am
SrGrumpy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:12 am
gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one.
Gee, I hope all the people one digit removed from you don't adopt a similar policy.
If someone gave their real name and my SSN to their dentist it wouldn't affect me in any way. That wouldn't make me responsible for their debt. Their real name doesn't correlate with my SSN.
No, but it might tie you up in paperwork and phone calls for a while.
MishkaWorries
Posts: 1362
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by MishkaWorries »

Poor penmanship precludes problems.
We plan. G-d laughs.
SrGrumpy
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by SrGrumpy »

MishkaWorries wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:28 am Poor penmanship precludes problems.
Poetic!
TravelGeek
Posts: 4902
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by TravelGeek »

JPM wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:23 pm Our hospital began to require two forms of identification after it was investigated by public aid for having billed for six deliveries in the same year for the same woman. Turned out, six different women used the same medicaid card for their OB services. Not that unusual for people to lend their insurance cards to friends in need, so specialists who do not know patients on first meeting may want to be sure they are not treating someone who has borrowed insurance cards and will get stiffed by the insurer. To protect the practice, they establish a policy of requiring proof of identity before treatment.
That seems reasonable to me. You want to use the benefits of an insurance, you should be able to prove that you are entitled to it. Either the insurance companies should start issuing photo-ID style cards that can’t be shared, or the provider can ask for a photo ID.

But knowledge of a social security number proves nothing and requesting/recording it just exposes the medical provider and the patient to risks.
ROIGuy
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun May 08, 2016 10:10 am

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by ROIGuy »

So many companies,credit cards, hotel chains etc... have been hacked over the years odds are greater than your personal information is out there, then not. The absolute best thing you can do is freeze your credit information with the three bureaus (we've done this already). No one can open an account under your name if that is done.
If you apply for a credit card car loan mortgage etc you will have to go and find out which credit bureau the company you are applying for credit for uses., And then unfreeze it for a specific amount of time so they can access it. It's actually very easy to do.
sschoe2
Posts: 792
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:42 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by sschoe2 »

gwe67 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:43 am
Super Hans wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:48 am
Flashes1 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:41 am I'm a rebel without a cause, but I always give a fake SS # in these situations.
+1.
In situations where the SSN is requested but doesn't seem legitimately needed, I have given out a number that is one number off from the correct one. They have yet to notify me that the number is wrong. I suppose they only want to have it for bill collection purposes.

On a related note, I refuse to give out my phone number when making a purchase. Why do they insist on this (especially you, Tractor Supply)??
I give out an old phone number that no longer is in service when businesses ask for it. It is for marketing purposes. Unfortunately that doesn't work with companies like Personal Capital that use your phone number for 2FA. I also have a spam bait email address I give to businesses.
TravelGeek
Posts: 4902
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:23 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by TravelGeek »

Since this is a medical provider, I would wonder (and ask them in writing if the notification didn't state it) if any of the patient medical records were accessed/stolen as well. Medical data may be included in appointment or billing data as well.
criticalmass
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:58 pm

Re: Oral surgeon said we were legally required to give SS#, then they got hacked

Post by criticalmass »

CygX1 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:03 pm In 2019 my younger son had to have significant oral surgery to remove an infected tooth followed by an implant. It was difficult to get the appointment. When my wife arrived on the day of the scheduled surgery she was presented with this notice, which I have a photograph:

ATTENTION ALL PATIENTS

Effective May 1, 2009, Federal Trade Commission rules require that we obtain a photo identification and social security number for all patients and those financially responsible for their treatment. If they wish to pay by credit card, check, and/or request our office to file an insurance claim on their behalf. THIS IS PART OF A FEDERAL INITIATIVE TO REDUCE IDENTITY THEFT. If you are unwilling or unable to comply with this Federal law, you will be expected to pay cash in full prior to being treated for services.
Follow up question when you sense bogus requirements: What specific FTC rule mentions a social security number for patients, and what FTC rule requires a social security number for patients? FTC rules are not secretive. I skimmed over FTC rules (15,16 CFR) and I don't see any such requirement unless it is hiding. There are requirements for identity validation, but SSN is just one method of compliance.

If an in network provider refuses to bill insurance for someone properly insured, that is an issue for the insurance company AND the state licensing agency to address.
If the provider didn't provide proper care of your HIPAA sensitive information and your PII, then you very may well have a claim against them for any related damages you suffer. An attorney in your state can help guide you. Hopefully you didn't sign your rights away to sue or class actions (if available in your state).
Post Reply