fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

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bfeenix44
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fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by bfeenix44 »

Wow...I just tried troubleshooting what I thought was an easy electrical question by googling it.
It quickly made me need a drink. :shock:

My mom has a small fan in her kitchen plugged into a GFCI socket (this means it has reset button, right?).
Shutting the fan off sometimes trips the outlet reset button.
I also notice that, when turning the fan on, there is a slight pause before it starts.

Can I plug this fan into a surge protector I have nearby? or is it time for a new fan?

Now...I release this pain :shock: to you all, fine friends.
Please do the same thing with my electrical issue that you have done with my investing.
Make the magic happen.

tamara

P.S. I envision a future where people will go from "googling" to "bogleheading."
My future, at least.
Portfolio here: | https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=345748&p=5936072#p5936072
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JoMoney
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by JoMoney »

I could imagine a fan being turned on/off as being exactly the type of change in current flow that should cause it to trip. When a fan is turned off and still spinning it's essentially an electrical generator at that point and might be sending some small amount back up the line.
I have one of those over my kitchen sink, it's a great spot for my phone charger, but I don't use it because simply plugging in and unplugging my phone will cause it to trip and it's extremely annoying to find out that the phone isn't charged up when I thought it was.
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Inframan4712
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by Inframan4712 »

Buy a new fan. If it still trips, have electrician replace outlet and or inspect wiring.

A hair dryer in a bathroom at 1500 watts doesn’t trip GFCI. A small fan definitely shouldn’t.
rascott
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by rascott »

JoMoney wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:06 am I could imagine a fan being turned on/off as being exactly the type of change in current flow that should cause it to trip. When a fan is turned off and still spinning it's essentially an electrical generator at that point and might be sending some small amount back up the line.
I have one of those over my kitchen sink, it's a great spot for my phone charger, but I don't use it because simply plugging in and unplugging my phone will cause it to trip and it's extremely annoying to find out that the phone isn't charged up when I thought it was.
Wow that's crazy. We charge our phones on a GFCI circuit all the time with no issues.
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

How was it installed? DIY? Handy Man? If someone connected neutral and ground at the fan, the wires will share the return current, which is sensed as a difference between hot and ground and trip the breaker.
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JoMoney
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by JoMoney »

rascott wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:11 am
JoMoney wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:06 am I could imagine a fan being turned on/off as being exactly the type of change in current flow that should cause it to trip. When a fan is turned off and still spinning it's essentially an electrical generator at that point and might be sending some small amount back up the line.
I have one of those over my kitchen sink, it's a great spot for my phone charger, but I don't use it because simply plugging in and unplugging my phone will cause it to trip and it's extremely annoying to find out that the phone isn't charged up when I thought it was.
Wow that's crazy. We charge our phones on a GFCI circuit all the time with no issues.
I wouldn't think it would either, low voltage DC adapter and I've tried using different ones with the same result. I just chalked it up to the outlet being overly sensitive, which is kind of a desired effect if you're going to be plugging in electrical devices over a sink.
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Kenkat
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by Kenkat »

You can buy inline surge protectors - essentially a single plug surge protector and see if that makes a difference. They are only around $10 or less. I have all my major appliances run through these. While it is possible that the fan is bad, GFCI outlets can also go bad. If there is another one elsewhere in the house, you might try plugging the fan into it and see what happens. I’d be inclined to replace the fan if it is tripping the GFCI though.
rascott
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by rascott »

JoMoney wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:17 am
rascott wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:11 am
JoMoney wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:06 am I could imagine a fan being turned on/off as being exactly the type of change in current flow that should cause it to trip. When a fan is turned off and still spinning it's essentially an electrical generator at that point and might be sending some small amount back up the line.
I have one of those over my kitchen sink, it's a great spot for my phone charger, but I don't use it because simply plugging in and unplugging my phone will cause it to trip and it's extremely annoying to find out that the phone isn't charged up when I thought it was.
Wow that's crazy. We charge our phones on a GFCI circuit all the time with no issues.
I wouldn't think it would either, low voltage DC adapter and I've tried using different ones with the same result. I just chalked it up to the outlet being overly sensitive, which is kind of a desired effect if you're going to be plugging in electrical devices over a sink.
True.... but all our kitchen outlets (3) are on the same GFCI, so something that sensitive would drive me crazy. I would swap out the gfci outlet for $20 and see if it helps.
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JoMoney
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by JoMoney »

rascott wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am...
True.... but all our kitchen outlets (3) are on the same GFCI, so something that sensitive would drive me crazy. I would swap out the gfci outlet for $20 and see if it helps.
Thanks, I'm a renter... I might mention it to the landlord at some point for their awareness, but I'm not going to put any money into it ;)
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Luke Duke
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by Luke Duke »

JoMoney wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:36 am
rascott wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:27 am...
True.... but all our kitchen outlets (3) are on the same GFCI, so something that sensitive would drive me crazy. I would swap out the gfci outlet for $20 and see if it helps.
Thanks, I'm a renter... I might mention it to the landlord at some point for their awareness, but I'm not going to put any money into it ;)
I don't think that $12 is going to break the bank.
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tev9876
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by tev9876 »

Surge suppressors and GFIs are for very different purposes. Suppressors protect the device from high voltage spikes. GFIs protect YOU when current is leaking outside of the circuit, such as through your body, by detecting a tiny amount of current leak and shutting the circuit down before you can even feel it. A surge suppressor will not prevent a GFI from tripping, nor should it.

As noted, try a new fan. The slow startup you mention could be an indicator that it is dying and causing the GFI to trip. You could also try plugging the fan into a different circuit on a GFI (bathroom, garage, basement, ...) and see if the issue follows the fan.
lazydavid
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by lazydavid »

An outlet tester is only $8: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Ben ... /202867890

If the outlet tests out good, replace the fan.
tev9876
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by tev9876 »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:27 am An outlet tester is only $8: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Ben ... /202867890

If the outlet tests out good, replace the fan.
Note that several pictures on that HD link are messed up. They show two different models of tester - one with and one without GFI testing. If you buy one make sure it has the button to be able to test the GFI function.
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quantAndHold
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by quantAndHold »

GFCI outlets can wear out. This one is borked. Get the landlord to replace it.
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lthenderson
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by lthenderson »

I've bought new power tools that straight out of the box have tripped GFCIs. Sometimes the windings in the motors are just not perfect and though they function perfectly, they can cause a spike on startup (or in your case shutdown) that can trip them. Also as others mentioned, the GFCI's wear out over time. I would plug the fan into a different outlet or replace the outlet and your problem will most likely go away.
seawolf21
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by seawolf21 »

If the fan is plugged into the surge which it plugged into the GFCI, I would still expect GFCI to trip.
j.click
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by j.click »

As a long time owner/user of many fans, I have found that the lubrication between the fan shaft and the housing/bearings hardens or dissipates over time. One can easily remedy this by using a small amount of turbine oil (Zoom Spout oiler) directly into or above the bearing joint and allowing the oil to seep into and around the housing along the shaft. From the symptoms you describe lack of shaft lubrication could explain both the sag in starting and the load in stopping. Good luck....
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bfeenix44
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by bfeenix44 »

Thanks, all...I will try your suggestions this weekend!
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whoshighpitch
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by whoshighpitch »

JoMoney wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:06 am I could imagine a fan being turned on/off as being exactly the type of change in current flow that should cause it to trip. When a fan is turned off and still spinning it's essentially an electrical generator at that point and might be sending some small amount back up the line.
I have one of those over my kitchen sink, it's a great spot for my phone charger, but I don't use it because simply plugging in and unplugging my phone will cause it to trip and it's extremely annoying to find out that the phone isn't charged up when I thought it was.
JoMoney is correct, it's common for these type of fans to backfeed just enough to trip a GFI. I went through this last summer when trying to sell my house. Every time the bathroom fan was turned off it tripped the GFI outlet which in turned killed the lights which were downstream of the GFI.... so I failed my inspection. I too was very frustrated trying to figure this out.
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by Sandtrap »

Inframan4712 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:10 am Buy a new fan. If it still trips, have electrician replace outlet and or inspect wiring.

A hair dryer in a bathroom at 1500 watts doesn’t trip GFCI. A small fan definitely shouldn’t.
+1
For safety, try plugging in another fan. Replace the defective one. Or replace the gfci. It should not be tripping like you describe.
GFCIs get more sensitive over time and if tripped often.
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suemarkp
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by suemarkp »

Could be a spike coming out if the fan when power is turned off. Try a ferrite bead around the power cord.

You dont need a gfci tester as its obviously working. Either the fan is defective and the gfci is doing its job, the gfci is failing and has become overly sensitive, or the fan is making a big enough spike that the gfci sees it as a leak.
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by boomer_techie »

suemarkp wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:51 pm Could be a spike coming out if the fan when power is turned off. Try a ferrite bead around the power cord.

You dont need a gfci tester as its obviously working. Either the fan is defective and the gfci is doing its job, the gfci is failing and has become overly sensitive, or the fan is making a big enough spike that the gfci sees it as a leak.
Spikes should not trip a GFCI. You can't have a spike on just one side (i.e. wire) of the circuit. A current spike would show up on both sides. At that point, the spike current will cancel itself out in the GFCI's sensing.

If the fan is tripping the GFCI, then there is current leaking from the fan wiring onto a grounded portion of the fan. This either means the fan is defective (i.e. a safety hazard!) or there is a tiny amount of leakage* and the GFCI has become hyper sensitive.

* Leakage is certainly possible: Supposedly fluorescent tubes, during startup, leak to the fixture's metal shell. This apparently helps the tubes turn on.
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Re: fan trips GFCI; can I plug into surge protector?

Post by suemarkp »

The power switch blocks it in one wire since the switch was turned off. Im not sure of the current path since a circuit needs to be completed for current to flow. Im speculating that the voltage capacitively couples to earth and current flows in the white wire to get to ground to get back to the fan.

I know ferrites have been used with success on some items to stop gfci trips. Some things have a snubber component to absorb the spikes from motors and inductors. If it has one that part could have failed.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
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