The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
OpenRoad
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by OpenRoad »

RobLyons wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:18 pm
Katietsu wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:16 am I am fascinated by the average age of cars in places like Texas. In my world, a Toyota driven for 15,000 miles a year as a daily driver in all weather gets taken out by corrosion well before it can get to 200k or 300k miles.

Exactly this. Here in New England cars start rusting out under 100k sometimes. Potholes galore so parts break earlier, alignments are needed more frequently, tires, rims, etc. It's nearly impossible to be a classic car enthusiast (I am one) unless one has a garage and drives the vehicle only during the late spring - early fall months.
I've always lived in northern states where the weather is more extreme and never have had this problem. Are people aiming for potholes and salt piles when they drive? :)

I try to buy new, within my means, and drive it 'till it won't no more. My current car is 16+ years.
Tingting1013
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tingting1013 »

H-Town wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:13 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:54 pm It’s not a coincidence that the MSRP on the car dropped as the federal tax credit phased out, the base model is now $35k MSRP on the website (net of the remaining CA rebates).

It didn’t depreciate at all, the intended pricing has always been at $35k.
I wonder who gonna buy a used 2018 Model 3 at 36k from Carvana when they can order a new 2021 Model 3 from Tesla for 38k (33k after credit & rebate)?

I don't understand the used car market since the pandemic. Sure, the demand is higher for cars in general. But the market for used car is very strange.
Carvana (and used car dealers in general) don’t make their profit on the cars, they make them on warranties and financing. The car itself is almost an after thought, like the bun for a hot dog.

Also, lots people don’t think in terms of total car price, they think in terms of monthly payment. The monthly payment that Carvana offers you can be lower than the monthly payment that Tesla offers you, regardless of underlying car price.

As a seller of a used car all of this works to your advantage. More people should be flipping their cars.
BalancedJCB19
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by BalancedJCB19 »

I don't do what the OP suggested because I would be too worried about hidden problems. What I do do is I buy a brand new car for around $17K, in this case a Nissan Versa and keep it for as long as I can. I'm currently still driving my 09 Versa and the thing is still going strong (with 125,000 on it), but if something happens that costs more than $1,500, I will buy a slightly used one from Carvana or maybe brand new from the dealer, I just hate going to car dealerships.
Tribonian
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tribonian »

Didn’t buy my first car until I was 35. Saved a fortune
By biking everywhere I could and taking transit or renting a car when necessary. Bought a 6 year old
Subaru that has been a champ for the last 9 years. I probably overspend on housing, but have no regrets.
mrsmitt
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by mrsmitt »

Can you give us your source?

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:39 am
A three year old Tesla Model 3 has not depreciated at all since 2018.

If you had bought two of those you would have had several thousand dollars per year increased net worth compared to owning a regular car.
Luckywon
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Luckywon »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:31 pm
H-Town wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:13 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:54 pm It’s not a coincidence that the MSRP on the car dropped as the federal tax credit phased out, the base model is now $35k MSRP on the website (net of the remaining CA rebates).

It didn’t depreciate at all, the intended pricing has always been at $35k.
I wonder who gonna buy a used 2018 Model 3 at 36k from Carvana when they can order a new 2021 Model 3 from Tesla for 38k (33k after credit & rebate)?

I don't understand the used car market since the pandemic. Sure, the demand is higher for cars in general. But the market for used car is very strange.
Carvana (and used car dealers in general) don’t make their profit on the cars, they make them on warranties and financing. The car itself is almost an after thought, like the bun for a hot dog.

Also, lots people don’t think in terms of total car price, they think in terms of monthly payment. The monthly payment that Carvana offers you can be lower than the monthly payment that Tesla offers you, regardless of underlying car price.

As a seller of a used car all of this works to your advantage. More people should be flipping their cars.
Isn't this belied by the fact there is a significant spread between what Carvana will pay and what they will sell a particular car for?
Tingting1013
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tingting1013 »

Luckywon wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:57 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:31 pm
H-Town wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:13 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:54 pm It’s not a coincidence that the MSRP on the car dropped as the federal tax credit phased out, the base model is now $35k MSRP on the website (net of the remaining CA rebates).

It didn’t depreciate at all, the intended pricing has always been at $35k.
I wonder who gonna buy a used 2018 Model 3 at 36k from Carvana when they can order a new 2021 Model 3 from Tesla for 38k (33k after credit & rebate)?

I don't understand the used car market since the pandemic. Sure, the demand is higher for cars in general. But the market for used car is very strange.
Carvana (and used car dealers in general) don’t make their profit on the cars, they make them on warranties and financing. The car itself is almost an after thought, like the bun for a hot dog.

Also, lots people don’t think in terms of total car price, they think in terms of monthly payment. The monthly payment that Carvana offers you can be lower than the monthly payment that Tesla offers you, regardless of underlying car price.

As a seller of a used car all of this works to your advantage. More people should be flipping their cars.
Isn't this belied by the fact there is a significant spread between what Carvana will pay and what they will sell a particular car for?
According to their latest financials, they make $3,252 gross profit on each car. Of that, only $610 comes from the spread on the car price.

https://investors.carvana.com/~/media/F ... 042021.pdf
wander
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by wander »

I doesn't sound wealthy to me.
Luckywon
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Luckywon »

Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:16 pm
Luckywon wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:57 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:31 pm
Carvana (and used car dealers in general) don’t make their profit on the cars, they make them on warranties and financing. The car itself is almost an after thought, like the bun for a hot dog.

Also, lots people don’t think in terms of total car price, they think in terms of monthly payment. The monthly payment that Carvana offers you can be lower than the monthly payment that Tesla offers you, regardless of underlying car price.

As a seller of a used car all of this works to your advantage. More people should be flipping their cars.
Isn't this belied by the fact there is a significant spread between what Carvana will pay and what they will sell a particular car for?
According to their latest financials, they make $3,252 gross profit on each car. Of that, only $610 comes from the spread on the car price.

https://investors.carvana.com/~/media/F ... 042021.pdf
I see the $610 figure in the document which is the document is referred to as "wholesale GPU". I do not believe this denotes the spread on the car price on sales to individuals.

First, the "wholesale GPU" in that document is given as (-)$111 for 2015 and (+)$97 for 2016. It seems highly unlikely that Carvana sold cars in 2015 to individuals for on average less than they paid for them.

Rather, "wholesale" GPU seems to denote the spread on the car price from sales to wholesalers, after some costs. This seems clear from this document also from Carvana but from a prior quarter in 2020.

https://investors.carvana.com/~/media/F ... letter.pdf

In this document on page 12 there is a discussion of "wholesale" GPU which indicates that it reflects profits from vehicles purchased from customers and sold to wholesalers.

In this document, Carvana refers to "retail" GPU given as $1190. This appears to reflect profit from retail sales but after reconditioning costs, as stated in the document, so the actual spread is higher than $1190.

The document lists "other" GPU as $1399 for the most recent quarter and states that this includes profits from financing operations, so that will give an idea of profits from financing.
jackbeagle
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by jackbeagle »

cshell2 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:02 am
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am A $700 car payment is extreme.

DD has a 2018 Toyota Highlander and her payment didn't break $400. Other family car is a 2020 Toyota Corolla, less than $300. The Highlander is paid off, the Corolla will be paid off this year.
Well, obviously you can't really judge the true cost by the payment. I'm assuming those cars had big down payments and/or they're 84 month loans.
Toyotas, out of any car brand, are the safest to go long on those 84 month notes. Not the brands actively pushing them (BMW). 4Runner, Tacoma, and Land Cruiser, specifically have some of the slowest depreciation in the industry, let alone the brand.

Save for a few cars that may best even Toyota, the same ones that are selling for OVER MSRP with all the market adjustments gouging customers: Corvette C8, Audi RS6 Avant, Honda Civic Type-R (and only the Type-R).
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Lee_WSP
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Lee_WSP »

Ron Ronnerson wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:11 am

Still, the question shouldn’t be ignored in the consideration: what if owning a cheap, old car allowed you to (perhaps drastically) shorten the number of hours spent driving over your lifetime? Is it still unsafer?
An interesting thought experiment.

Even though driving is one of the leading causes of death in America, our average life expectancies are still extremely long given historical standards.

As such, I think that it's a case of a very fat tail risk.

I surmise that the odds of being in a much more minor incident such as rear ending the car in front of you is a much more likely scenario a newer car would help prevent. The time and expenses of dealing with it may offset the higher costs.

Front and rear sensors are certainly technology upgrades I personally find compelling. The next big tech upgrade for me is semi autonomous driving. I suppose rollover and side impact protection are the other two big improvements lately, but I find them to be far less quantifiable.
lamdan
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by lamdan »

bg5 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am Good Morning,

Everyone has their "thing" that they enjoy to spend money on so if cars are your "thing" then please don't be offended. I have no problem dropping $500 on a round of golf at Whistling Straits or spending $200 on a meal every now and then.

With that being said I am always shocked at the amount of money people throw into cars. The vast majority of people cannot afford the cars they drive and it really takes away at their ability to become financially independent. I totally understand that on this boglehead board that most people can easily afford the cars they drive.

My goal with this post is to make people realize that if you want to get rid of your $700 car payments its very easy to buy a car in the $2000-$4000 price range and have it last for many years....often times being able to resell it for almost what you bought it at.

I have found that both Honda and Toyota's are almost indestructable and will often times reach well over 300,000 miles if you keep up on standard oil changes. There are plenty of cheap Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys on FB Marketplace right now in the price range I described above. I have been doing this for years and have found that the vast majority of my wealth has come from not having car payments and taking that money and investing it. See my story below and please understand that these cars are not rust buckets...I live and work in a wealthy area and these cars fit in just fine and dont stick out like a sore thumb.

2010 I bought a 2000 honda accord with 180,000 miles on it for $2200 and I drove it for 3 years and put 60,000 miles on it. The car still worked great and I ended up selling it in 2013 for $1700.

2013 - I bought a 2002 Honda pilot with 200,000 miles on it for $2800 and drove it for 2 years and put 40,000 miles on it. In 2015 I sold it for $2200.

2015 - I bought a 2005 Honda Pilot for $3300 and it had 210,000 miles on it. I drove it for 3 years and put 60,000 miles on it and in 2018 I sold it for $2600.

2018 - I bought a 2007 Honda pilot for $2300 and it had 210,000 miles on it. I drove it for 15 months and the engine blew......I sold the car in 1 day after the engine blew for $1000 :) Unreal as the resale value of Hondas is nuts....basically had people fighting over the car with the blow engine and still got a stinking grand.

2020 - I bought a 2009 Honda Pilot for $4000 and it had 220,000 miles on it


Bottom line is I realized that my cars Im driving are costing me very little amounts of money and I am taking all the money that I would of put into car payments and just invest it. Cars drop in value like crazy but what I have found is that there is always a HUGE market for cars that are selling in the $2000-$4000 range. If I showed you pics of these cars you would say to yourself that these are nice cars....they are not rust buckets and they look and fit in just fine.

So if you are someone who is trying to free up some cash then I would start with cars....they lost a lot of value and there are plenty of deals out there for reliable cars at a cheap price. I buy all my cars off of private sellers on Facebook marketplace and I know very little about cars. I could not even change the oil if I needed to. Buy a Honda or Toyota and it will run and last a lifetime while still having a great resale value.

If you have questins please let me know.
There was a short window of time a few months ago that New jeresy was offering a 5k rebate if you buy or lease a electric car.
I have quite a few relatives here who got a lease on a 2020 hyundai elantra or chevy bolt, "put down" approx 6k got a 5k rebate and have payments of under $100 per month, due to the large amount of $ they put down originally. That coupled with not paying for gas seems to be far and away a awesome way to have the best of both worlds. Little $ and new safe car.
They stopped the program to direct the funds to Coved relief but claimed it will be refunded sometime later this year.
Slacker
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Slacker »

H-Town wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:36 am
JackoC wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:33 am
H-Town wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:04 am
JackoC wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:17 am Getting very cheap cars breaks down at higher income due to both financial triviality and subjecting your family, again assuming one, to higher risk of death or life altering injury. Especially when the examples of very cheap cars are also small ones: multiple of IIHS death rate stats for old small cars vs. recent stats for new hefty vehicles. A big absolute chance of tragedy with a small old car? No, but I want no part of that gamble.
You gamble when you drive.
Obviously I'm speaking of the incremental gamble of saving money by driving beaters if not financially forced to. Otherwise I could just retort that you gamble when you live. :happy
Exactly! So why bother about things that out of your control? If you're behind the wheel, you're in control of what you do. You can also have the power to turn off the beeping sound that the modern cars make when you change lane without a blinker.

I think defensive driving skills matter more than taking chances that your modern car has an ample crumble zone that in theory will protect you in a head-on crash.

Like honestly, I have a hard time believing that a couple of camera, sensors, and a computer could overcome the laws of physics.
Nothing stops you from both having improved defensive driving skills and purchasing cars with more advanced safety systems.

The data so far shows that many of the advanced safety items have reduced crashes frequency and severity. It seems that before the implementation of the advanced drivers aids, people weren't improving their defensive drivers skills. Not sure how avoiding the latest safety features will cause people to improve their driving skills.

Additional sensors can allow one to overcome the biological limits of humans that are far beneath the limits imposed by physics (reaction time, broader awareness, etc).
bltn
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by bltn »

Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:17 pm
bltn wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:04 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:19 am I think OP's lesson boils down to two things.

1) you must live below your means to build wealth
2) cars are a big ticket item most people are unwilling but, unlike housing, are able to tackle

Clearly if the house hold is a 1% earner, a $700/mo car is well within their budget.
If a house hold is a 1% earner, car payments are a mistake.
Maybe, but when the household is earning $400,000 per year or 33.3k per month, $700 is a drop in the bucket, representing just 3% of the total after tax monthly budget. Which is my whole point; $700 a month for a car is nothing to such households.
I absolutely agree. For a household earning $33,000 a month, a $700 dollar car payment is a minor detail.
However, as I ran my business, and my personal finances, if I took care of all the details, the big things would often take of themselves. If one lets enough details slide, they can become a big thing. Where does one draw the line?
Even as a young man, I approached car buying with the idea I would buy what I could afford. Which meant what I had saved up for. Never was a car purchase such an urgent matter that I had to borrow money for the transaction. Despite what the car dealers used to encourage.
H-Town
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

bltn wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:23 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:17 pm
bltn wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:04 pm
Lee_WSP wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:19 am I think OP's lesson boils down to two things.

1) you must live below your means to build wealth
2) cars are a big ticket item most people are unwilling but, unlike housing, are able to tackle

Clearly if the house hold is a 1% earner, a $700/mo car is well within their budget.
If a house hold is a 1% earner, car payments are a mistake.
Maybe, but when the household is earning $400,000 per year or 33.3k per month, $700 is a drop in the bucket, representing just 3% of the total after tax monthly budget. Which is my whole point; $700 a month for a car is nothing to such households.
I absolutely agree. For a household earning $33,000 a month, a $700 dollar car payment is a minor detail.
However, as I ran my business, and my personal finances, if I took care of all the details, the big things would often take of themselves. If one lets enough details slide, they can become a big thing. Where does one draw the line?
Even as a young man, I approached car buying with the idea I would buy what I could afford. Which meant what I had saved up for. Never was a car purchase such an urgent matter that I had to borrow money for the transaction. Despite what the car dealers used to encourage.
While it’s true that $700 is like a drop in the bucket for 400k household income, but it’s not the whole story. We’re in 330-370k HHI range, and we know that high income comes with strings attached. It’s a lot more responsibilities, long hours, and stress. Plus, your executive position will be gone in a heartbeat due to some outside factors and not your own doing. Before you know it, that 400k income is gone while the $700 car payment is due every month. Then you realize that it’s not $700 but it’s 60k that you owe to the bank on a depreciating asset.

Once high earners indulge in luxury lifestyle, it’s difficult to pull back and they’re more susceptible when their income goes away. We know this and we still maintain our lifestyle the same as when we start our professional careers.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Taylor Larimore
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"The 4,026,858.95 Car or a Worry-Free Retirement?"

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:
This is a copy of a post I made two years ago:
The $4,026,858.95 Car or a Worry-Free Retirement?
Post by Taylor Larimore » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:28 pm
Bogleheads:

The automobile industry must have the most successful marketing program in the world (even more successful than the investment industry). No longer is the automobile used to get from point A to Point B. Our car now represents prestige, safety, comfort and more. Even the lowest priced cars today are much better than the highest priced cars a few years back.

The easiest way to save money for retirement is to own an inexpensive automobile. Let me explain:

I used Edmonds "Five Year Cost to Own" to compare the current cost of my last car (a Corolla sedan) with the cost of the BMW 3 Series sedan (my neighbor's car). These are the results:


2018 BMW 3-Series 4-door sedan 5-year cost to own:. $71,347 (new $57,581)
2018 Toyota Corolla 4-door sedan 5-year cost to own: $26,149 (new $18,978)
5-Year Savings ................................................$45,198
1-Year Savings .................................................$9,039

Assuming we drive for 40 years (ages 25-65), what is the cumulative return of the $9,039/year savings?

According to bankrate.com., $9,039 saved each year for 40 years at 9% (stock market's average return) is (hold your breath) $4,026,858.95.

Driving a low-cost (perfectly adequate) automobile is the easiest way I know to have a worry-free retirement (we enjoyed two world cruises).

Best wishes
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "The great game of life is not about money; it is about doing your best to join the battle to build anew ourselves, our communities, our nation, and our world."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
whomever
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by whomever »

"if I took care of all the details, the big things would often take of themselves"

There is a lot of truth in that.

I just ran the numbers - if you can save $300 a month on car costs (or anywhere else), and invest the $3600 once a year and get 3% real for 40 years, that's $279K. If you get 5% it's $456k.

That's true regardless of your income. If you can live on $60K a year after the mortgage is paid off, that's retiring 4+ or 7+ years early.

Where to draw the line? That's a personal choice - only you can know how much you value a nicer car versus retiring early, or whatever else you would spend the money on. I always milked our cars for all they are worth, but I voluntarily worked an academic year contract instead of a 12 month schedule, and spent the 3 months off hiking. That mattered more to me than new cars or a lot of other ways I could have spent that money. No one can decide those tradeoffs for anyone else - but it's important to realize the tradeoffs you are making.
A-Commoner
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by A-Commoner »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:31 am A $700 car payment is extreme.

DD has a 2018 Toyota Highlander and her payment didn't break $400. Other family car is a 2020 Toyota Corolla, less than $300. The Highlander is paid off, the Corolla will be paid off this year.

Some of us appreciate safety features, and prefer to have newer cars.

Driving $2,000 - $4,000 cars may have made you think that made you wealthy, but there are untold numbers of people who have carried car payments all their driving days who are wealthy. You have simply chosen to pay for golf rounds and cheap cars. Everyone does that, just depends on making choices.

Maybe if you cut out the $500 golf rounds you could drive a newer car AND become wealthy! :D

I purchased our first new car in 1971, a Ford Pinto. I spent more than $2000 for it. My, I would rather buy new and keep 10-12 years. From 1971 until the present I have always bought new cars. For most of our time, DW and I had two cars.

What made us wealthy was not paying $500/golf rounds! :beer

Broken Man 1999
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stoptothink
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by stoptothink »

H-Town wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:46 pmOnce high earners indulge in luxury lifestyle, it’s difficult to pull back and they’re more susceptible when their income goes away. We know this and we still maintain our lifestyle the same as when we start our professional careers.
My brother, who is used to a $300k+ income (oil & gas) was laid-off last February, hasn't worked a day since and is almost certain his career is over. After 14 months of not working he is considering starting a trade program to become an electrician because he has no college education and his experience doesn't seem to carryover to really anything else. Even if things work out, they are likely to be solely on my SIL's modest nurse income for quite a while longer and it is unlikely they'll ever have even half the income they are "used to". He bought a new Porsche Turbo S literally a few weeks before he was laid-off and his wife drives a new Volvo SUV ($250K in vehicles parked on the street in their condo complex - they moved out of the McMansion rental soon after he was laid off); how they haven't been repossessed yet, I have no idea, but it has never even crossed their mind to get rid of the vehicles. He still posts pictures of his car on social media, when he was visiting a few months ago he was bragging to my 5yr old son how his car costs more than some people's homes. Really sad reminder of how hard it is to step off that hedonic treadmill.
H-Town
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:00 pm
H-Town wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:46 pmOnce high earners indulge in luxury lifestyle, it’s difficult to pull back and they’re more susceptible when their income goes away. We know this and we still maintain our lifestyle the same as when we start our professional careers.
My brother, who is used to a $300k+ income (oil & gas) was laid-off last February, hasn't worked a day since and is almost certain his career is over. After 14 months of not working he is considering starting a trade program to become an electrician because he has no college education and his experience doesn't seem to carryover to really anything else. Even if things work out, they are likely to be solely on my SIL's modest nurse income for quite a while longer and it is unlikely they'll ever have even half the income they are "used to". He bought a new Porsche Turbo S literally a few weeks before he was laid-off and his wife drives a new Volvo SUV ($250K in vehicles parked on the street in their condo complex - they moved out of the McMansion rental soon after he was laid off); how they haven't been repossessed yet, I have no idea, but it has never even crossed their mind to get rid of the vehicles. He still posts pictures of his car on social media, when he was visiting a few months ago he was bragging to my 5yr old son how his car costs more than some people's homes. Really sad reminder of how hard it is to step off that hedonic treadmill.
Thanks for sharing that! I hope it'll work out for them. Not a great place to be in.
Time is the ultimate currency.
inbox788
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by inbox788 »

Luckywon wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:42 pmFirst, the "wholesale GPU" in that document is given as (-)$111 for 2015 and (+)$97 for 2016. It seems highly unlikely that Carvana sold cars in 2015 to individuals for on average less than they paid for them.
"we lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume"

While by some metrics they're now showing a profit, it does appear the net income for the company as a whole is still negative. As they scale up, the loss margin is decreasing, so that's one metric that benefits from the volume strategy. For a $50B company, I expect they'll show a profit soon, but maybe they're following Amazon footsteps of growing at a loss for a lot longer than one might desire.

BTW, their gross profit on each car is over $3k, which is right in the price range of the cars in this thread.
Luckywon
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Luckywon »

inbox788 wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:10 pm
"we lose money on every sale, but make it up in volume"
This sounds like a way to maximize losses, not profits. :confused
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by jlawrence01 »

For years, I purchased 4-6 year old domestic vehicles with 60k+ miles for between $4-6k. They had to be domestic vehicles as I lived most of my life in towns with significant manufacturing facilities at a time when such facilities were in decline. Did I save some money? Sure. However, part of my ability to do this was to have a strong relationship with AAA and a my local Enterprise Rental agency which I visited 4-6 times per year

Then I purchased a new Toyota Corolla. In 14 years, there have been no calls to AAA for roadside service and no large repair bills. Also, no car rentals to get to work.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by jayk238 »

bg5 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am Good Morning,

Everyone has their "thing" that they enjoy to spend money on so if cars are your "thing" then please don't be offended. I have no problem dropping $500 on a round of golf at Whistling Straits or spending $200 on a meal every now and then.

With that being said I am always shocked at the amount of money people throw into cars. The vast majority of people cannot afford the cars they drive and it really takes away at their ability to become financially independent. I totally understand that on this boglehead board that most people can easily afford the cars they drive.

My goal with this post is to make people realize that if you want to get rid of your $700 car payments its very easy to buy a car in the $2000-$4000 price range and have it last for many years....often times being able to resell it for almost what you bought it at.

I have found that both Honda and Toyota's are almost indestructable and will often times reach well over 300,000 miles if you keep up on standard oil changes. There are plenty of cheap Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys on FB Marketplace right now in the price range I described above. I have been doing this for years and have found that the vast majority of my wealth has come from not having car payments and taking that money and investing it. See my story below and please understand that these cars are not rust buckets...I live and work in a wealthy area and these cars fit in just fine and dont stick out like a sore thumb.

2010 I bought a 2000 honda accord with 180,000 miles on it for $2200 and I drove it for 3 years and put 60,000 miles on it. The car still worked great and I ended up selling it in 2013 for $1700.

2013 - I bought a 2002 Honda pilot with 200,000 miles on it for $2800 and drove it for 2 years and put 40,000 miles on it. In 2015 I sold it for $2200.

2015 - I bought a 2005 Honda Pilot for $3300 and it had 210,000 miles on it. I drove it for 3 years and put 60,000 miles on it and in 2018 I sold it for $2600.

2018 - I bought a 2007 Honda pilot for $2300 and it had 210,000 miles on it. I drove it for 15 months and the engine blew......I sold the car in 1 day after the engine blew for $1000 :) Unreal as the resale value of Hondas is nuts....basically had people fighting over the car with the blow engine and still got a stinking grand.

2020 - I bought a 2009 Honda Pilot for $4000 and it had 220,000 miles on it


Bottom line is I realized that my cars Im driving are costing me very little amounts of money and I am taking all the money that I would of put into car payments and just invest it. Cars drop in value like crazy but what I have found is that there is always a HUGE market for cars that are selling in the $2000-$4000 range. If I showed you pics of these cars you would say to yourself that these are nice cars....they are not rust buckets and they look and fit in just fine.

So if you are someone who is trying to free up some cash then I would start with cars....they lost a lot of value and there are plenty of deals out there for reliable cars at a cheap price. I buy all my cars off of private sellers on Facebook marketplace and I know very little about cars. I could not even change the oil if I needed to. Buy a Honda or Toyota and it will run and last a lifetime while still having a great resale value.

If you have questins please let me know.
Pre pandemic how far did you live from place of work?
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Re: "The 4,026,858.95 Car or a Worry-Free Retirement?"

Post by abuss368 »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:47 pm Bogleheads:
This is a copy of a post I made two years ago:
The $4,026,858.95 Car or a Worry-Free Retirement?
Post by Taylor Larimore » Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:28 pm
Bogleheads:

The automobile industry must have the most successful marketing program in the world (even more successful than the investment industry). No longer is the automobile used to get from point A to Point B. Our car now represents prestige, safety, comfort and more. Even the lowest priced cars today are much better than the highest priced cars a few years back.

The easiest way to save money for retirement is to own an inexpensive automobile. Let me explain:

I used Edmonds "Five Year Cost to Own" to compare the current cost of my last car (a Corolla sedan) with the cost of the BMW 3 Series sedan (my neighbor's car). These are the results:


2018 BMW 3-Series 4-door sedan 5-year cost to own:. $71,347 (new $57,581)
2018 Toyota Corolla 4-door sedan 5-year cost to own: $26,149 (new $18,978)
5-Year Savings ................................................$45,198
1-Year Savings .................................................$9,039

Assuming we drive for 40 years (ages 25-65), what is the cumulative return of the $9,039/year savings?

According to bankrate.com., $9,039 saved each year for 40 years at 9% (stock market's average return) is (hold your breath) $4,026,858.95.

Driving a low-cost (perfectly adequate) automobile is the easiest way I know to have a worry-free retirement (we enjoyed two world cruises).

Best wishes
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "The great game of life is not about money; it is about doing your best to join the battle to build anew ourselves, our communities, our nation, and our world."
I recall this post! It definitely impacted the way I view cars!

Tony
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Blue456
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Blue456 »

You folks in here forget about safety.
H-Town
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by aln10788 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
Do you honestly think those are the only changes made in the past decade to make cars safer? Also, those cameras and sensors prevent hundreds if no thousands of crashes daily.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tingting1013 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.

Can your 10 year old Subaru do that?
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.

Can your 10 year old Subaru do that?
Yeah but I can drive my car out of the way :)
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tingting1013 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:20 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.

Can your 10 year old Subaru do that?
Yeah but I can drive my car out of the way :)
Only if you see it in time
H-Town
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

aln10788 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:14 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
Do you honestly think those are the only changes made in the past decade to make cars safer? Also, those cameras and sensors prevent hundreds if no thousands of crashes daily.
Good for them. And good for the people who avoid accidents because they pay attention to the road and drive defensively.
Time is the ultimate currency.
H-Town
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:21 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:20 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.

Can your 10 year old Subaru do that?
Yeah but I can drive my car out of the way :)
Only if you see it in time
Do you mean the people who text or talk on the phone? Or do you mean aggressive drivers who won’t let anyone in or change lane? Good luck to those people. A Tesla may not save them.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tingting1013 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:22 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:21 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:20 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm

You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.

Can your 10 year old Subaru do that?
Yeah but I can drive my car out of the way :)
Only if you see it in time
Do you mean the people who text or talk on the phone? Or do you mean aggressive drivers who won’t let anyone in or change lane? Good luck to those people. A Tesla may not save them.
https://youtu.be/k60stdDRk6s
H-Town
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:22 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:21 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:20 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm

A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.

Can your 10 year old Subaru do that?
Yeah but I can drive my car out of the way :)
Only if you see it in time
Do you mean the people who text or talk on the phone? Or do you mean aggressive drivers who won’t let anyone in or change lane? Good luck to those people. A Tesla may not save them.
https://youtu.be/k60stdDRk6s
https://youtu.be/cPMvQphJQiE

Bottom line: I don’t trust a computer. And I don’t want to be beta testers for those safety tech, auto pilot, and whatnots. I’m driving. That’s it.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Tingting1013 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:31 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:22 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:21 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:20 pm

Yeah but I can drive my car out of the way :)
Only if you see it in time
Do you mean the people who text or talk on the phone? Or do you mean aggressive drivers who won’t let anyone in or change lane? Good luck to those people. A Tesla may not save them.
https://youtu.be/k60stdDRk6s
https://youtu.be/cPMvQphJQiE

Bottom line: I don’t trust a computer. And I don’t want to be beta testers for those safety tech, auto pilot, and whatnots. I’m driving. That’s it.
Sure, everyone thinks they’re a great driver. That’s why there are no accidents on the roads.

Road deaths actually have decreased over years. Do you think that’s because we all got better at driving?
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by H-Town »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:33 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:31 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:22 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:21 pm

Only if you see it in time
Do you mean the people who text or talk on the phone? Or do you mean aggressive drivers who won’t let anyone in or change lane? Good luck to those people. A Tesla may not save them.
https://youtu.be/k60stdDRk6s
https://youtu.be/cPMvQphJQiE

Bottom line: I don’t trust a computer. And I don’t want to be beta testers for those safety tech, auto pilot, and whatnots. I’m driving. That’s it.
Sure, everyone thinks they’re a great driver. That’s why there are no accidents on the roads.

Road deaths actually have decreased over years. Do you think that’s because we all got better at driving?
Do you still trust the auto pilot after seeing that video? Still willing to pay top dollars to be beta testers?

I trust myself when I’m behind the wheel. 20+ year of driving, hundreds of long road trips, and hundred of thousands of miles. Driving is risky. You can control the risk by paying attention to the road, and drive defensively.
Time is the ultimate currency.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
Actually, it’s been discussed quite a bit in this thread. Taylor’s post does a nice job of illustrating how much it can cost people who choose to own an expensive car. I remain unconvinced how the latest safety features help with safety when, in order to have those safety features, one must spend more time in a vehicle since paying for those safety features will require more time commuting over the course of one’s lifetime.

Maybe the latest safety features provide the illusion of safety. Instead of driving into work, one could own a pogo-stick and live right next to their job. Whatever would have gone into paying for the cars can now be used toward increased housing cost. Another option is to continue to commute from far away in an old car but retire years earlier. Either way, the result is less time spent in these death traps known as automobiles. Safety could potentially be enhanced by not paying for the safety features.

We need to step back and really look at the whole picture. If you’re like the typical person, there should be plenty of time to do that from the “safety” and comfort of your car as you commute to work from far away for a number of decades.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by bg5 »

To many people spend way to much money on vehicles. If you have the cash its not a big deal but I would assume most couples making under $100,000 have probably around $50,000 worth of cars or more in their driveway.

Thats a problem!
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by ballons »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:18 pm
H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Blue456 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:02 pm You folks in here forget about safety.
You meant a couple of camera, sensors, and a few computer chips?
A Tesla will literally drive itself out of the way of a car careening at you.
What if it's another tesla that is careening at you?
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by stoptothink »

Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:45 pm
Maybe the latest safety features provide the illusion of safety. Instead of driving into work, one could own a pogo-stick and live right next to their job. Whatever would have gone into paying for the cars can now be used toward increased housing cost. Another option is to continue to commute from far away in an old car but retire years earlier. Either way, the result is less time spent in these death traps known as automobiles. Safety could potentially be enhanced by not paying for the safety features.
Another great Ron post. The single best thing I ever did to improve "car safety" was to buy a home that allowed me to walk to work and pretty much everywhere else. Like most things, such a nuanced topic; paying for the newest safety tech is not the only answer and may not be the most effective (definitely not most cost-effective).
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by inbox788 »

Tingting1013 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:27 pmhttps://youtu.be/k60stdDRk6s
A lot of the examples would have been avoided or weren't accidents at all, like the truck that veered to the right and returned to the lane was mostly just a warning, but this one right before the 3 minute mark really saved the driver! Note what happened to the white sedan coming from the opposite direction before the crash in front of the Tesla. No way to tell if what looks like a white Audi had any self-braking technology or if it would have turned out different if it did or had been a Tesla instead.

https://youtu.be/k60stdDRk6s?t=170

It's going to be a long time before it makes it to a $2000 vehicle (lowest right now might be a used 2013 Outback with EyeSight for around $10k), so those cars that do have these high tech can be content they can avoid some of the flying debris.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by ronno2018 »

I hate auto oriented sprawl land use and I think it is destroying the planet and causing harm to humans. So I recommend moving to a walkable neighborhood and using public transit instead. Electric bikes and scooters are cool too. https://www.instagram.com/best_of_berlin/?hl=en
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by tibbitts »

ronno2018 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:38 pm I hate auto oriented sprawl land use and I think it is destroying the planet and causing harm to humans. So I recommend moving to a walkable neighborhood and using public transit instead. Electric bikes and scooters are cool too. https://www.instagram.com/best_of_berlin/?hl=en
I assume you're aware that mass transit is not a practical option for probably 98% of the U.S. geographically. Many people's employment precludes living where mass transit is practical. Electric bikes and scooters are not "cool" from a safety point of view - even less so in rain/snow/ice. Actually I live where I can walk to buy some groceries and do, but that doesn't work out so well in rain/snow/ice either.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by tibbitts »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:58 pm
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:45 pm
Maybe the latest safety features provide the illusion of safety. Instead of driving into work, one could own a pogo-stick and live right next to their job. Whatever would have gone into paying for the cars can now be used toward increased housing cost. Another option is to continue to commute from far away in an old car but retire years earlier. Either way, the result is less time spent in these death traps known as automobiles. Safety could potentially be enhanced by not paying for the safety features.
Another great Ron post. The single best thing I ever did to improve "car safety" was to buy a home that allowed me to walk to work and pretty much everywhere else. Like most things, such a nuanced topic; paying for the newest safety tech is not the only answer and may not be the most effective (definitely not most cost-effective).
For many years I lived a few hundred feet from work. But I drove far more miles then than I did at any other time in my life, because I had so much free time without having to spend nearly a couple of hours a day commuting. So instead of plugging along at an average 25mph commuting, I could spend that time driving to the mountains and lakes at ... well back then I drove too fast, so I won't say how fast, but let's just say living a few hundred feet from work wasn't a win from a motor vehicle safety standpoint.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by tibbitts »

H-Town wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:43 pm I trust myself when I’m behind the wheel. 20+ year of driving, hundreds of long road trips, and hundred of thousands of miles. Driving is risky. You can control the risk by paying attention to the road, and drive defensively.
I think everybody agrees automated control isn't quite there yet, but we all know automation is going eventually be better at driving than humans can be. Maybe not this year or next year but it will.

Like me and everybody else who hasn't had accidents (well, I was rear-ended once, but I don't count that) for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles, if you're honest you have to admit there was more than a little luck involved.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Ron Ronnerson »

stoptothink wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:58 pm
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:45 pm
Maybe the latest safety features provide the illusion of safety. Instead of driving into work, one could own a pogo-stick and live right next to their job. Whatever would have gone into paying for the cars can now be used toward increased housing cost. Another option is to continue to commute from far away in an old car but retire years earlier. Either way, the result is less time spent in these death traps known as automobiles. Safety could potentially be enhanced by not paying for the safety features.
Another great Ron post. The single best thing I ever did to improve "car safety" was to buy a home that allowed me to walk to work and pretty much everywhere else. Like most things, such a nuanced topic; paying for the newest safety tech is not the only answer and may not be the most effective (definitely not most cost-effective).
That is so great that you're able to walk to work as well as other places you go! It seems like it would really add to your quality of life in many ways (time saved, healthy lifestyle, enjoyable, and, of course, for safety reasons as well).
stoptothink
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by stoptothink »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:58 pm
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:45 pm
Maybe the latest safety features provide the illusion of safety. Instead of driving into work, one could own a pogo-stick and live right next to their job. Whatever would have gone into paying for the cars can now be used toward increased housing cost. Another option is to continue to commute from far away in an old car but retire years earlier. Either way, the result is less time spent in these death traps known as automobiles. Safety could potentially be enhanced by not paying for the safety features.
Another great Ron post. The single best thing I ever did to improve "car safety" was to buy a home that allowed me to walk to work and pretty much everywhere else. Like most things, such a nuanced topic; paying for the newest safety tech is not the only answer and may not be the most effective (definitely not most cost-effective).
For many years I lived a few hundred feet from work. But I drove far more miles then than I did at any other time in my life, because I had so much free time without having to spend nearly a couple of hours a day commuting. So instead of plugging along at an average 25mph commuting, I could spend that time driving to the mountains and lakes at ... well back then I drove too fast, so I won't say how fast, but let's just say living a few hundred feet from work wasn't a win from a motor vehicle safety standpoint.
Well, that's a choice. As a family with two working professionals, we're <12k miles of driving total (we share a single car) per year, with a significant amount of that being vacations and road trips. We're never in the house, but that doesn't mean we have to drive to wherever we are going. We have several parks and mountain trails within a few miles of our home, but that's part of the reason we bought where we did.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by Old Guy »

This thread just reinforces my view that many people on this site enjoy doing the math about their money more than they do actually spending it.
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Re: The $2000-$4000 Car :) This made me wealthy so jump on board

Post by tibbitts »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:01 am
tibbitts wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:26 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:58 pm
Ron Ronnerson wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:45 pm
Maybe the latest safety features provide the illusion of safety. Instead of driving into work, one could own a pogo-stick and live right next to their job. Whatever would have gone into paying for the cars can now be used toward increased housing cost. Another option is to continue to commute from far away in an old car but retire years earlier. Either way, the result is less time spent in these death traps known as automobiles. Safety could potentially be enhanced by not paying for the safety features.
Another great Ron post. The single best thing I ever did to improve "car safety" was to buy a home that allowed me to walk to work and pretty much everywhere else. Like most things, such a nuanced topic; paying for the newest safety tech is not the only answer and may not be the most effective (definitely not most cost-effective).
For many years I lived a few hundred feet from work. But I drove far more miles then than I did at any other time in my life, because I had so much free time without having to spend nearly a couple of hours a day commuting. So instead of plugging along at an average 25mph commuting, I could spend that time driving to the mountains and lakes at ... well back then I drove too fast, so I won't say how fast, but let's just say living a few hundred feet from work wasn't a win from a motor vehicle safety standpoint.
Well, that's a choice. As a family with two working professionals, we're <12k miles of driving total (we share a single car) per year, with a significant amount of that being vacations and road trips. We're never in the house, but that doesn't mean we have to drive to wherever we are going. We have several parks and mountain trails within a few miles of our home, but that's part of the reason we bought where we did.
And what percentage of people do you think could find both affordable housing and walkable employment within walking distance of mountain trails and several parks (well other than tiny neighborhood "parks")? I would guess probably a few more now than before the pandemic, but we're already seeing some reversal of that. Of course we have Bogleheads declaring they'll now only work from home forever, but that's Bogleheads, and I'm talking about the population at large.
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