High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

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Elysium
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High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Elysium »

I already know the answer to this for myself, but just wanted to have this discussion with the forum on what others here think, in case I am missing a 1% somewhere.

Edit: This question is directly related to our situation, whether it makes financial sense to pursue a Liberal arts admission at a highly ranked STEM school (with intent to switch to a STEM program later), or better to pursue STEM admission at a lower ranked school, where you get direct admission as freshman. My son wish to follow the second option, but questioning whether he should do the other based on new information.

Here is the scenario, some of kids we know from son's school applied to liberal arts major to high ranked STEM schools, even though they really wish to follow cs/engineering eventually, the idea is to switch majors once they get admitted (I know, I know), these are schools like Berkley, UCLA, and CMU, easier to get into Liberal arts school at these Univ than get into STEM/CS. They also have admissions to CS/STEM at lower ranked schools, such as Penn State, UPitt,VCU, etc. But they are selecting these highly recognized schools with Liberal arts major, over lower ranked CS major. The idea is to change majors once they get admitted. I don't know what is the backup plan if they don't get to change majors, perhaps study CS on the side and anyway get a job in Tech. These are smart kids who already know how to code in more than one programming language, so they can code no matter if they do a CS degree or English major. But with school like Berkeley or CMU they have the name recognition and alumni network. What's wrong with this strategy? why shouldn't a kid follow this and instead of go to school like PSU for CS?
Last edited by Elysium on Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by SmallSaver »

Elysium wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am I already know the answer to this for myself, but just wanted to have this discussion with the forum on what others here think, in case I am missing a 1% somewhere.

Here is the scenario, some of kids we know from son's school applied to liberal arts major to high ranked STEM schools, even though they really wish to follow cs/engineering eventually, the idea is to switch majors once they get admitted (I know, I know), these are schools like Berkley, UCLA, and CMU, easier to get into Liberal arts school at these Univ than get into STEM/CS. They also have admissions to CS/STEM at lower ranked schools, such as Penn State, UPitt,VCU, etc. But they are selecting these highly recognized schools with Liberal arts major, over lower ranked CS major. The idea is to change majors once they get admitted. I don't know what is the backup plan if they don't get to change majors, perhaps study CS on the side and anyway get a job in Tech. These are smart kids who already know how to code in more than one programming language, so they can code no matter if they do a CS degree or English major. But with school like Berkeley or CMU they have the name recognition and alumni network. What's wrong with this strategy? why shouldn't a kid follow this and instead of go to school like PSU for CS?
Seems like the whole plan hinges on the thesis that it's easy to transfer from liberal arts into STEM once in. I'd consider that a very speculative thesis. Those are separate schools within a university and I doubt that you can just hop between them. I'd go so far as to say that schools are probably wise to this scheme and have considered it explicitly.

Edited to add: engineering undergrad programs are generally very tightly planned. If it takes a year to execute this plan, that will probably add a year to graduation, there isn't a lot of slack.
Last edited by SmallSaver on Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by jmw »

Been there. Done that. Picking the easy liberal arts major is a horrible idea with the idea of switching to CS. It's much more important to secure your spot in the CS major and get straight Cs from a lesser school and graduate. I would much rather take a CS degree from Podunk U instead of a Philosophy degree from UC Berkeley or Harvard for purposes of IT industry career progression.

1) Pick the school with the guaranteed CS major upon entry as a freshman no matter how low the school is.
2) Pick the CS major rather than an easier admissions major if it is guaranteed entry as a freshman.

It will be a pain in the butt to fail to enter the major and transfer out. The prereqs for the upper division courses may be very different at another school and you'd have to self-study your deficiencies because the professors will assume you know everything from the lower division courses. One other possibility is that your kid may have an easy time entering the major at a lesser school while not being able to get into the major at a competitive school like UC Berkeley. UC Berkeley has two CS majors and I would pick the very hard to get in EECS major because it's guaranteed entry in the major as a freshman while L&S CS is not guaranteed as a freshman or even junior transfer even if you mark L&S CS on the general admissions application. Also keep in mind that many straight A students in high school end up struggling with Cs and Ds once they get into STEM university courses.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by watchnerd »

Stanford alum here, which is pretty good in both areas.

But...

Switching majors is not really feasible.

I was an Applied Physics major, minor in CS. There is no way you can switch into a top tier STEM program mid stream from a liberal arts major and catch up. If you want to take 5 years to graduate, it's more possible, but that's expensive.

Even switching between STEM majors (I switched for Aero/Astro to Applied Physics) is hard, because only the most common core math classes tend to carry over between STEM majors.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by watchnerd »

SmallSaver wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:00 pm .Edited to add: engineering undergrad programs are generally very tightly planned. If it takes a year to execute this plan, that will probably add a year to graduation, there isn't a lot of slack.
Exactly.

Plan on at least 5 years.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Slacker »

The schools I attended still required "applying" to the school of Engineering.

When I was at UW Seattle a couple decades ago there were about 400 applicants for the 110 open spots for EE. It was something like 1500 applicants for the 300 CS spots and all of these applicants were already UW undergrad students.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by hi_there »

I think they should just apply in earnest to the desired STEM programs in all of the schools. If they have demonstrated academic potential to succeed in one of those programs, chances are they will get into at least one. If they have to "backdoor" the admittance, 1) it will add time and complexity to their academic program, and might not even work, and 2) they might not actually have the aptitude to do well in those programs relative to other students.

Also, not all universities require applications to specific academic programs. This probably depends on the resources available to the university, i.e. Berkeley requires program applications, Stanford does not.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by KlangFool »

Elysium wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am I already know the answer to this for myself, but just wanted to have this discussion with the forum on what others here think, in case I am missing a 1% somewhere.

Here is the scenario, some of kids we know from son's school applied to liberal arts major to high ranked STEM schools, even though they really wish to follow cs/engineering eventually, the idea is to switch majors once they get admitted (I know, I know), these are schools like Berkley, UCLA, and CMU, easier to get into Liberal arts school at these Univ than get into STEM/CS.
Elysium,

They need to do a lot more research. As far as I know, you can change your major out of Engineering/CS but you cannot transfer into Engineering/CS from Liberal Arts. This is especially true for top Engineering/CS school. Specifically, I know this to be true for VTech.

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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by KlangFool »

OP,

In engineering/CS, the goal is to weed out the existing students in the first or second year. So, why would they allow transfer in when they are try to weed out existing student?

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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Tingting1013 »

At many schools CS is a Liberal Art, not an Engineering program. Just like how you find Math and Physics in the school of Liberal Arts, not Engineering.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by index245 »

Speaking for UCLA....it is not easy to transfer from College of Letters and Science to the School of Engineering. When I say not easy, I mean I don't know anyone who did so successfully (even with a "similar" major...ie Math, which is a letters and science major).
Last edited by index245 on Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by kevinpet »

SmallSaver wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:00 pmThose are separate schools within a university and I doubt that you can just hop between them. I'd go so far as to say that schools are probably wise to this scheme and have considered it explicitly.
That's true in some cases, but most CS grads from Berkeley are BA in CS through the College of Letters and Sciences. BS in EECS from the College of Engineering might be a more rigorous program for pure engineering, but the additional breadth requirements from the L&S degree may make you a more well-rounded person.

When I was at Cal, you needed to be admitted to the major based on lower division grades. It didn't matter at all what you said you were going to study when you got admitted, within L&S. Things might have changed, but CS doesn't necessarily mean college of engineering.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by adamthesmythe »

When I worked at Well-Known Engineering University, the difficulty of transferring into ECE or CS varied with demand (with CS being more difficult). OP can probably find out what the story is now.

There have been times when ECE students had difficulty registering for CS courses, even required CS courses.

OP's approach depends on an unknowable amount of luck.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by jrbdmb »

I think it will be problematic to be accepted at a university for Liberal Arts and then attempt to transfer to a STEM major. It is very school-dependent, but generally you will need to complete a set of prerequisite classes with a minimum grade and also have a minimum overall grade point average.

Speaking of a school I know (Penn State) they have a specific college (Division of Undergraduate Studies) for students with undecided majors. Some students will enter this college if they don't get accepted to their preferred college (Engineering, Science, Business). But they still have to meet the entrance requirements for the college and major which can be quite high (3.2 or 3.5 GPA for some majors). When I went there were also credit limits for some majors - if you didn't meet the entrance requirements by the time you hit XX credits you could no longer transfer in.

In summary, if you are going to try to switch majors after acceptance, you need to have very specific info on if it is allowed, is there a limit on when it can happen, and what the class / GPA prerequisites are. And also have a backup plan if your primary plan doesn't work out. I'd also suggest looking to see if there is an undecided major path rather than entering with a Liberal Arts major that you have no intention of finishing.
Last edited by jrbdmb on Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by finite_difference »

If you start out by taking CS classes first year and do well, I would think they would let you change major to CS.

But if you don’t do well (3.5 or above?) or it’s a separate school that might be an issue. Switching to Eng. could definitely be harder than CS or Math or Physics. I would think if you have the grit and ability it wouldn’t be impossible though. But there’s nothing wrong with going to a good “lower ranked” school either and not having to deal with that extra effort of fighting the system. Then you can spend your effort on coursework, but it all depends on how you’re wired and whether it might motivate you or not. But only a terrible school that would stand in the way of a talented and motivated student.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by stan1 »

Getting down into details that are specific to each university (such as Cal's dual CS degrees of BS in EECS through College of Engineering and BA in CS through College of L&S).

In general at Cal the official recommendation has been to go to community college then transfer in as a junior to the program you want if not accepted as a freshman, rather than trying to apply for a less impacted program hoping to transfer in (e.g. L&S to Engineering). Path of supporting transfers in from community colleges is an official policy of the University of California (although also still very competitive).
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by increment »

finite_difference wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:52 pm If you start out by taking CS classes first year and do well

Does the school in question even have seats in these mandatory CS courses for students outside the major?
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by permport »

100% go for the lower ranked school with STEM major. That is the substance over style choice. The higher ranked school with the liberal arts major is akin to a style over substance choice.

I'd rather study engineering at Penn State than study liberal arts at Stanford, if I were given the binary choice.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by tibbitts »

Elysium wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am I already know the answer to this for myself, but just wanted to have this discussion with the forum on what others here think, in case I am missing a 1% somewhere.
Well it worked for me. I know what you're thinking: pretty sad that I had to resort to that tactic for getting admitted to a community college program. And you might have a point.

Incidentally after reading your post I have no idea what you think the 99% answer is. But then you're dealing with somebody would couldn't get admitted to his chosen community college program, so you have to spell these things out. In small words, please.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by dboeger1 »

One thing to keep in mind is that every student's path will be unique, regardless of the prestige of their school. I went to a top-tier STEM university, and we had everything from children of heads of state and already-established entrepreneurs to disadvantaged students who did well in high school but ended up dropping out or pursuing alternatives like liberal arts, Teach for America, etc. Just going to a school like UCLA or CMU doesn't come close to guaranteeing that a student will excel or network with the right people, and that's before trying to pull this major-switching stuff. Also, there are ways of accessing those networks and resources from elsewhere. The most obvious way is by applying to graduate degree programs there. Some of the most successful people I met in university were grad students who came from more "normal" schools where they went above and beyond and developed close working relationships with professors and other staff who had connections to those more prestigious schools. But even among students, one can interact with people from those top schools through various competitions, activities, online platforms, research partnerships, entrepreneurship, etc.

And quite frankly, if they're good enough to get into those universities at all, there's a decent chance that just applying to as many STEM schools as possible will get them into at least one of those programs. I remember being a senior in high school and feeling so unmotivated to apply to many universities because I hated rejection and felt like there was no point in applying to schools I didn't feel good enough for or that weren't my top choices. In retrospect, this was very silly. I only applied to 2 top schools and was very fortunate to get accepted to just 1 of them, but looking back, there's no reason I shouldn't have applied for more just in case. I think a lot of students sell themselves short and loathe the application process, but beyond a certain level of qualifications, it becomes just a numbers game.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by runninginvestor »

watchnerd wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:08 pm
SmallSaver wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:00 pm .Edited to add: engineering undergrad programs are generally very tightly planned. If it takes a year to execute this plan, that will probably add a year to graduation, there isn't a lot of slack.
Exactly.

Plan on at least 5 years.
Yep, the uni I went to, engineering was a 5-year program (required various experiential paid intern opportunities within the program). No one had the ability to drop or alter their schedules really because it was such a defined structure to get from year 1 to graduation.*

*Interestingly, my uni had a fairly generous drop policy which is probably why the engineering majors had overall GPAs 1 point less than other degrees...but that's another topic on grade inflation ;) (other major's pathways weren't as rigid so you were able to (or encouraged?) to drop a class and retake it if you were doing poorly)
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Watty »

Elysium wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am What's wrong with this strategy? why shouldn't a kid follow this and instead of go to school like PSU for CS?
There are lots of well qualified students that apply to the top schools but if they cannot get accepted to as a incoming freshman that could be a sign that the college thinks that they would struggle compared to the other CS students.

To be brutal, the college might have made the right decision to not admit them as an incoming freshman CS student.

If they do manage to sneak in through the transfer program then they could very well find themself struggling and in the bottom 10% or 20% of their class since they would be trying to catch up with the other students. Even if they are at a great college where students often get fantastic internships and job offers they will likely not get those if they are well down in the bottom half of their class. As long as they actually graduate that does not mean the end of the world and once you are a few years out of college nobody asks about your GPA. They can still have a great career but paying a lot to go to an exclusive school really does not buy much if you are not an well ranked compared to the other students.

It would be difficult to judge but you could also ask if being in the top 10% of PSU students might not actually be better than being in the bottom 10% or Prestige U students. One big factor is that the professors likely have industry contacts that they will recommend the top students for internships and jobs. If you are in a large program and in the bottom of your class your professors may barely know you.
Elysium wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:48 am ...in case I am missing a 1% somewhere.
An alternative to consider would be to look into getting an undergraduate degree in CS from some place like PSU then going to graduate school to get a masters at the more prestigious university. Of course the big question to research would be how difficult it would be to be admitted to the grad school with a degree from somewhere else. They could of course also apply to multiple graduate programs.

Even if they got a master from a PSU level school an argument could be made that it would be better than just an undergraduate degree from a more prestigious university.

You would need to crunch the numbers but if you would be paying in state tuition at someplace like PSU the cost of getting a masters might be less than a bachelors at Prestige U.

I have a very old CS degree and at least in the past going to grad school to get a masters in CS was not all that popular since a bachelors was enough to get most people very well paying jobs. A lot of people with an undergraduate CS degree would eventually get an MBA if they were going to get an advanced degree.

A CS undergraduate degree with a good MBA could be a very good combination to have and could be better than just an undergraduate degree from Prestige U.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Williams57 »

I did this (arts&sciences to engineering within the same uni). Graduated in 9 semesters instead of 8.
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better brand name

Post by Bogle7 »

1. Based upon a sample size of one, I say school with best brand name.
My daughter has gotten to the interview stage just because of the name of her Ivy alma mater.

2. Your major does not matter.
Her degree is in English and her job is something to do with data. Her father with his engineering degrees has no clue what she does.

3. She makes over $150K in a MCoL city.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by getthatmarshmallow »

It depends entirely on how the school and/or university system is organized. If admission to the STEM colleges is functionally a separate process, then entering as a liberal arts major and switching is going to require applying to the college (which might have a GPA requirement.) If it's just a question of having selected a different intended major, it's a lot easier. Most students switch majors and minors. If there's an explicit admissions requirement difference, then there is probably an internal application process based on GPA.

The key is the first semester. The student in question would have to enroll in the engineering prerequisites (calculus, physics e.g.,) and do well in order to transfer. Most of the time, one doesn't have to be a specific major to take those classes because they're taught to multiple majors. And usually, majors don't really start to become specialized until later in the sophomore or junior year.

Whatever general education requirements she takes should be ones that would count in either college. Otherwise, the student may transfer in but find that she's taken the wrong math doesn't allow her to progress through the major, and the result is likely a burned semester or year. Not always the end of the world, but it might mean an extra year at school. The engineering programs tend to have fairly rigid requirements and sequences of prerequisites, so missing one can be a matter of having to delay a year to make things up (or more typically having a rough couple of semesters of overload with nothing but engineering courses) But if he/she takes the 'engineering prereqs', she can likely progress through the degree in time even if she waits to formally declare it.

(I would pick Carnegie Mellon over Penn State in a heartbeat.)
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Blue456 »

Whichever school is cheaper.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by medic »

Let me preface by saying that, after your first job, hardly anyone cares or looks at where you went to school. I've interviewed people form MIT that can't engineer their way out of a office and folks from State U that just rock.

I went to one of the Tier 1 schools you list in engineering. The advantage is the name, therefore all companies will come recruit on campus. It's the career center and research opportunities that stand out. But every company assumes they're hiring intelligence, not a set of useable skills. Sure, you can code, but you still need to learn their systems, methodology, architecture, etc. In that sense, companies would consider anyone with ability to solve problems and that's taken CS101 and 201 for an internship. Land that, and you can get any programming job afterwards because your experience will be what the recruiters look at.

Lots of liberal arts roles will give you that opportunity - math, physical sciences, etc. Philosophy or english maybe harder, but supplement that with evidence of what you can actually do and you've got a shot.

If I did it again, I'd do the Penn State or similar. Good school, strong graduates, and a much better balanced 4 years.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by warner25 »

I have a BA and MS in computer science from two relatively prestigious schools (undergrad admissions rate below 20%), but neither of which are especially renown for CS/engineering. I haven't tested the job market much myself, but my peers got hired at places like Google, Amazon, Microsoft, etc. The nice thing was that I didn't experience crazy competition or a lottery system to get seats in the classes that I wanted to take, and I had easy access to the professors. If possible, take a look at the registrar webpages and see how many classes are offered, how many seats they have, how many of those seats are full, whether there are waiting lists, etc. There are some places where an algorithms class is done with a 500-1,000-seat lecture.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by quantAndHold »

So I'm not all super familiar with most of the mid-tier engineering schools in the east, but when I was doing college hiring at the FAANG, we definitely recruited at Penn State (a couple of my best people were from there), and I suspect we also recruited at some of the other schools mentioned. If this was my kid, I'd tell them to stop trying to mess around, and just go to one of the schools they got accepted to for the major they actually want.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by GG1273 »

stan1 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:02 pm In general at Cal the official recommendation has been to go to community college then transfer in as a junior to the program you want if not accepted as a freshman, rather than trying to apply for a less impacted program hoping to transfer in (e.g. L&S to Engineering). Path of supporting transfers in from community colleges is an official policy of the University of California (although also still very competitive).
It is the same in NJ - tough though to get into the state schools as most are pretty decent based on specialty. My wife did a year a County College of Morris, then transferred to The College of NJ (Trenton State) for their excellent nursing program. Finished MSN at Seton Hall a couple of years ago.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by GG1273 »

In OP's first posting, mentioned that PSU doesn't have a strong alumni network?
Not in this part of the country, though the OSU and PSU guys (along with Rutgers) all have a strong correlation to other grads from their alma maters.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Normchad »

I personally recruit Penn State every year. Their grads are great. The PSU job fairs are attended by a lot of big name companies. (And a lot of food science companies, who have tons of delicious snacks!)

I’ll,say this. If you get a CS or CE degree, you’re going to get a job. No question about it.

If you get admitted to a CS program you will get a degree. If you try to back door it, you might not get a degree.

The demand for CS grads is so great, it really doesn’t matter that much where you go. This isn’t like law school.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Elysium »

Thanks all for the responses, and to Mods for letting this discussion continue. As I have clarified it is directly related since we have taken the approach of going direct to STEM programs at schools that can provide admission regardless of the school ranking. Personally, I see high risk with cost of OOS to a place like UCLA or Berkeley with a liberal arts admission, and low probability of transfer to STEM program later. I am happy to see that most people here agree with me.

Couple of quick responses, and an additional question.
GG1273 wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:01 pm In OP's first posting, mentioned that PSU doesn't have a strong alumni network?
Not in this part of the country, though the OSU and PSU guys (along with Rutgers) all have a strong correlation to other grads from their alma maters.
I wasn't implying PSU does not have a strong network, but that one of the objectives for those going to highly ranked school is perhaps network opportunities apart from name recognition on resume.

Question for those familiar with PSU and UPitt, which school out of the two is better for CS/Engineering? if both were available and costs are roughly similar.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by momvesting »

My daughter applied at CMU and is a STEM major, but not CS or engineering. At all the presentations and when the admissions people came to campus and so on, they were very clear that you are not guaranteed anything and most likely will not be allowed to transfer to these majors since they are so tough to get in to. It sounds like this is a big problem for them. My daughter did get in but we know that her stats were definitely good enough for her major but not for CS, which has some crazy low acceptance rate at CMU. Although she had no desire to go CS or engineering, it was one of the many reasons we chose another school, it sounds like switching majors at all at CMU is really tough and often denied, and my daughter wanted some flexibility.

CMU acceptance by major:
https://admission.enrollment.cmu.edu/pa ... statistics
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:29 pm OP,

In engineering/CS, the goal is to weed out the existing students in the first or second year. So, why would they allow transfer in when they are try to weed out existing student?

KlangFool
That is an important thing to point out. I remember my engineering weed out class in my BSEE courses. For those of us who went on, it was fun and pretty easy. For those who did not think like an engineer, it was hopeless.

If his goal is a STEM major, that's what should be the major right from the start. If going into a liberal arts degree program, get the English courses out of the way, take calculus every semester, hard science (I took a full year of physics and a full year of chemistry....at the same time). I would expect a liberal arts advisor is going to look at this kind of course load and wonder why you're not in an engineering, science or math major.

It's a tough choice, but perhaps apply at various level STEM colleges. From personal experience (both me and my son), if you go a year to one college, then transfer, many colleges then offer no merit aid and often, no aid at all. In another thread, someone was complaining about sending their kid to WPI (my alma mater, and son's now) for $45k a year with financial help from the school. I paid full boat all years when I transferred in back in the 80's and again for my son when he transferred. I think this year, it's $73k.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by New Providence »

I'd imagine that one isn't cut out for a challenging STEM program if you can get into the program on your own.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by MarkRoulo »

New Providence wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:12 pm I'd imagine that one isn't cut out for a challenging STEM program if you can get into the program on your own.
I presume the "can" should be "can't" (if not, then ignore my comment).

This is not true. One might get wait listed for one college's engineering program and get accepted at another.
I have a friend whose child recent scored 1500+ on the SAT, came with almost one year of AP classes, had
a good GPA and was wait listed for University of California Davis engineering. The child was accepted to Northeastern
engineering and is doing fine.

I would be reluctant to conclude that this student would have done poorly at UC Davis.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by cheapskate »

1) With very few exceptions, it makes very little sense to go to any U of California campuses if you are a CA non-resident. You get little for the non-resident tuition you pay. Very large classes, difficult to sign up for classes, getting a slot even at TA hours very hard etc.
2) As many have mentioned, at Berkeley, CS is offered with Engg (EECS) and within Letters and Sciences. EECS is direct admit, with an admission rate in the very low single digits. It is often the case that kids who are denied EECS are admitted into Stanford. CS in L&S is not direct admit, you get admitted into L&S, then admission into CS is competitive, on the basis of your GPA in 3 gateway CS classes. Make no mistake, these 3 gateway CS classes are *brutal*. Getting the 3.3+ GPA is these 3 gateway classes is not easy. The story is similar in a few other flagship state universities (UWashington and a few others), but the competition is no less fierce at these.
3) Outside of the L&S route, it is nearly impossible to switch into CS in most well known and top ranked (for CS) public universities. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just angling for your out of state tuition dollars.
4) The usual advice of local state school, direct admit CS/Engg is almost always the correct advice. It eliminates all the stress of trying to compete for the few spots in CS after admit.
5) UIllinois (Urbana-Champaign) is a school that offers CS+X majors in Letters and Sciences (in addition to CS/Engineering). All of these are direct admit. There is very little or no difference between the 2. Admission to CS+X is slightly easier than CS/Engr. Something like CS+Math or CS+Statistics might be tougher than CS/Enginering at UIUC. A few CA kids I know have attended Illinois (both CS/Engr, and CS+Statistics). It is one of the few schools where out of state tuition is probably worth it.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by gips »

KlangFool wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:29 pm OP,

In engineering/CS, the goal is to weed out the existing students in the first or second year. So, why would they allow transfer in when they are try to weed out existing student?

KlangFool
that's funny, my school did everything they could to retain CS majors. I remember junior year they even upgraded from punch cards to terminals :happy

I worked in big tech and wall st, consulting now to a faang, and have hired a bunch of liberal arts majors from top schools. They had to pass coding/thinking tests (like everyone else), but they were some of our best hires. Actually, my best hire was an english major from brown who had perfect sat score and a 4.0 gpa. I was only able to hang on to him for 3 years before he left for a phd in operations research and then on to a hedge fund. not sure if that helps since it sounds like their interest lies in cs.

I wonder how hard it is to get into a CS program at a top liberal arts school? It looked my D was going to study pre-med at middlebury until she decided on a bigger university. I still think of that as a mistake. if I could have afforded a top 5-10 liberal arts school for cs, I'd have taken it in a ny minute.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by KlangFool »

Folks,

https://eng.vt.edu/academics/undergradu ... grams.html

In VTech, you are admitted into the general engineering. Only on the second year, you declare for your engineering major. If your CGPA is good enough, you would be admitted to your first choice. Or else, you would be admitted based on availability.

Please note that as far as I know, based on my son and his classmates across multiple colleges, Mechanical Engineering is the most popular major and hardest to get it. About 50% of the undergraduates are in Mechanical Engineering.

I am not sure whether other colleges follow the same system.

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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by ram »

My daughter went in the other direction.
From engineering school to Biology major. There was no problem in doing so (U Wisc, Madison). Going in the opposite direction would have been more difficult.
Was able to graduate in 3.5 years. Would have required 4 yrs for Engineering school.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by scorcher31 »

Can't speak about Pitt nor the engineering program at PSU. I can definitely say that PSU has a huge, relatively loyal alumni network. I know my wife probably got her job due to other PSU grads interviewing her. I had offers for medical school that I attribute to the same.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by qwertyjazz »

The other argument is to get a philosophy degree at Harvard and really know your STEM stuff. It sounds like they can already program. Philosophy major allows you to approach things from a different perspective and can in the long run be more valuable. You also can say I graduated from Harvard. Liberal arts major can be very valuable and the perspective would set you apart. Especially if later you decided on the MBA route or C office. Learning how to communicate and think should not be ignored. You do not have to major in what you want to do for the rest of your life.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by Tingting1013 »

qwertyjazz wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:54 pm The other argument is to get a philosophy degree at Harvard and really know your STEM stuff. It sounds like they can already program. Philosophy major allows you to approach things from a different perspective and can in the long run be more valuable. You also can say I graduated from Harvard. Liberal arts major can be very valuable and the perspective would set you apart. Especially if later you decided on the MBA route or C office. Learning how to communicate and think should not be ignored. You do not have to major in what you want to do for the rest of your life.
+1

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Knowing why you are coding is more important, and in the long run, more lucrative
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by GreendaleCC »

increment wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:27 pm
finite_difference wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 12:52 pm If you start out by taking CS classes first year and do well

Does the school in question even have seats in these mandatory CS courses for students outside the major?
Exactly.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by MathWizard »

The schools are high caliber because they only let high caliber students in.

If they can't get in the normal way, they are going to be in over their heads, assuming that they could transfer into STEM.
Would you like them to fail once they get in?

I recommend being forthright, and not try to game the system.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by stoptothink »

MathWizard wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:57 pm The schools are high caliber because they only let high caliber students in.

If they can't get in the normal way, they are going to be in over their heads, assuming that they could transfer into STEM.
Would you like them to fail once they get in?

I recommend being forthright, and not try to game the system.
I have a STEM undergrad degree (within the last 15yrs) from one of the schools mentioned in this thread multiple times. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of kids each year that would do just fine in these "high caliber" programs, but they don't get the opportunity because there are only so many slots. Not to mention, how those slots are divvied up isn't always just about academic potential. I do agree that getting into the school and then attempting to transfer into the program of choice has a much higher chance of not working out than just going to the slightly lower ranked school in the program you want in the first place.
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Re: High ranked Univ with liberal arts major or lower ranked school with STEM major

Post by fwellimort »

It depends on the school. Some schools make transferring majors very difficult. Especially for a very popular major like Computer Science.
Schools like UW Madison makes changing majors easy. On the other hand, schools like UIUC make it practically impossible to move into CS if you didn't get in as a CS major. You will have to research each school independently especially because everyone wants to do CS now.
I do believe (last time I checked), it's VERY difficult to change majors to CS inside CMU. CMU CS is regarded as one of the top 3 for a good reason: plus, I personally would never recommend a student there cause the coursework is insane (relative to doing CS in other schools) [the coursework looks like you would live and breathe CS for 4 years]

Also, the admissions for Berkeley, UCLA, CMU is noticeably more difficult than the admissions for many of the schools you stated (even if you included the admissions for engineering/computer science). Like quite literally 'more difficult'.
CMU SAT 25/75 percentiles are overall: 740~780 ERW, 780~800 Math
UPiit Engineering SAT 25/75 percentiles are overall: 650~710 ERW, 680~770 Math
The bottom 25% of regular students at CMU in average has higher SAT Math scores than the top 25% of incoming UPitt Engineers.
Also, some of these top liberal art schools (especially privates) want more than just stats: more extracurriculars, leadership, etc.
It's just noticeably harder to get into one over the other on a pure stats basis (and then there's the difference in acceptance rate).

As for:
These are smart kids who already know how to code in more than one programming language, so they can code no matter if they do a CS degree or English major.
And there are other smart kids who actually know how to code. I started coding for fun since elementary school. Problem is, companies don't give you the opportunity without some kind of 'stamp'. There's just too many applicants for companies to look each student case by case.

Don't forget some schools have CS also in the liberal arts department. Columbia Univ does this. It offers CS in both CC (liberal arts) and SEAS (engineering). In any school regardless of the CS in Liberal Arts or Engineering, the CS degree has the exact SAME effect (e.g. Berkeley CS in humanities and Berkeley EECS).
If those schools offer CS in the liberal arts department, it might be easy to change majors to CS. I know Columbia Univ for instance makes it easy to major in CS in the CC department: a few Columbia grads I know who majored in CS in the CC dept currently work at Jane Street, Google, Bloomberg.

Again, it really depends on the school. Some schools are very difficult to switch into. Some aren't.
And yes, it is a legitimate strategy. There are many people who try to take advantage of this very system.
Though in average, I would assume the students applying for STEM would have a very different set of extra-curriculars from a student applying for the humanities. So I don't see how you could create a good humanities major student with a bunch of STEM related activities.

I also believe Brown, Harvey Mudd, Vanderbilt, etc. also have unexpectedly good results for Computer Science grads at the undergraduate level.
In the world of CS, top tier school prestige can matter more than CS rankings. For instance, CS undergrads from Harvard will most likely have more opportunities than CS undergrads from UIUC.
For most engineering, no idea. In some cases, public might be the only option: Mining, Petroleum, etc. Especially cause those fields might be niche and just not be offered at most other schools.
I would try to avoid viewing CS and Engineering in the same field. From what I understand, a lot of traditional engineering jobs are very egalitarian (school you attended doesn't matter as much). This isn't necessarily true for CS out of college in major tech hubs.
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