Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
DC got in Umich (OOS), and UVA (Instate). The cost difference is around $35K/year. He is set on engineering and leaning towards Aero/Mechanical but may switch to CS. Umich is definitely much better in engineering than UVA. My question is - Is it worth paying OOS for Michigan undergrad engineering degree?
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
VA Tech.
Don’t go out of state.
Don’t go out of state.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Waitlisted for Vatech, so not an option
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Delta of $140k? Who's footing the bill? In either case I'd say UVa, it's a great school. If DC is taking loans, I'd be more emphatic. From what I understand about engineering once you're a few years in no cares as much where your undergrad was, and UVa is definitely well-enough known to have plenty of networking for either jobs or grad school after (full disclosure - UVa alum, although not in engineering).
Edited to add. It's also nice to have the kids in-state. Far enough away they can gain some independence, close enough they can drive up for weekends and holidays.
Edited to add. It's also nice to have the kids in-state. Far enough away they can gain some independence, close enough they can drive up for weekends and holidays.
Last edited by SmallSaver on Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Median income after Bachelors in Mech Engg (from https://collegescorecard.ed.gov/)
U Mich: 76,070
U Va: 67,571
I would go to U Va, especially if continuing at some point to grad school.
U Mich: 76,070
U Va: 67,571
I would go to U Va, especially if continuing at some point to grad school.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Does he have a target employer? Undergrad engineering is undergrad engineering, and rarely worth out of state (or even in state if high) tuition unless covered by someone else’s checkbook. If there is little chance of grad school (tough to decide this as an eighteen year old...) then considering what companies recruit from which school is a factor worth considering.
$35k is outrageous to spend on UM's ego.
$35k is outrageous to spend on UM's ego.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
1. The kid is ~18. People change their minds over the course of the two years before they have to declare a major. There's a reasonable chance that they won't wind up majoring in engineering, or will switch to another engineering field (e.g. from civil to electrical or vice versa). Hence it's short-sighted to decide solely on the basis of what they are thinking about now.
2. UM is ranked #24 by US News & World Report, UVA #26. Not a lot to choose between on an overall basis, certainly not worth $140-175k.
3. UM is a much larger school (>30k vs ~20k students) in a much larger city (Ann Arbor ~120k and near Detroit) than Charlottesville (~47k near Richmond). Depending on your kid's temperament they might like or hate the feel of one vs the other.
4. Weather is radically different in the winter.
5. I'd take the salary surveys with a grain of salt. The salaries are largely connected to where graduates wind up living. The south in general is a lower cost of living area vs. the rust belt so many people from VA who choose to stay close to home will earn lower pay than those from MI.
2. UM is ranked #24 by US News & World Report, UVA #26. Not a lot to choose between on an overall basis, certainly not worth $140-175k.
3. UM is a much larger school (>30k vs ~20k students) in a much larger city (Ann Arbor ~120k and near Detroit) than Charlottesville (~47k near Richmond). Depending on your kid's temperament they might like or hate the feel of one vs the other.
4. Weather is radically different in the winter.
5. I'd take the salary surveys with a grain of salt. The salaries are largely connected to where graduates wind up living. The south in general is a lower cost of living area vs. the rust belt so many people from VA who choose to stay close to home will earn lower pay than those from MI.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Agree with this--$140k is a huge difference for two schools that are on relatively equal footing in terms of overall education quality and reputation. Also, a large percentage of college students change their major at some point, and the percentage of STEM students who change majors is higher than those in liberal arts. That's not to say your kid won't stick it out in engineering, but if they get into school and decide engineering isn't for them, what then?SmallSaver wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:42 am Delta of $140k? Who's footing the bill? In either case I'd say UVa, it's a great school. If DC is taking loans, I'd be more emphatic. From what I understand about engineering once you're a few years in no cares as much where your undergrad was, and UVa is definitely well-enough known to have plenty of networking for either jobs or grad school after (full disclosure - UVa alum, although not in engineering).
Edited to add. It's also nice to have the kids in-state. Far enough away they can gain some independence, close enough they can drive up for weekends and holidays.
As a UVa alum who did not study engineering but works with engineers from UVa, VT, and numerous other schools, my generalized sense of career opportunities is that at UVa, compared to VT / UMich, you may have slightly fewer students who end up getting "prestigious" engineering jobs, but overall there is a wider array of employers recruiting UVa engineers in adjacent fields like consulting, banking, etc. that require both technical and soft skills.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
UVa instate is a no-brainer.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Which one does the kid want to go to, and why? Is the reason strong enough to be more important than the difference in the price tag? And how will the difference be paid for? Loans? You writing a check? If it’s you writing a check, are you easily able to absorb the cost?
If this were my kid, I’d be encouraging them to stay in state. Both choices are big state schools. The engineering school might be marginally better at one, but your particular kid’s college experience and educational outcomes are likely to be similar at either place.
If this were my kid, I’d be encouraging them to stay in state. Both choices are big state schools. The engineering school might be marginally better at one, but your particular kid’s college experience and educational outcomes are likely to be similar at either place.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
I'll add another vote for UVa. For majors like engineering that are offered most everywhere and have high job placement (not to mention that the two programs aren't THAT far apart in reputation), it's probably not worth paying for OOS tuition, especially with such a big difference in price. I don't even know if some place like MIT or Georgia Tech would be worth paying that much more for. $140,000 difference is enormous.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Do first two years locally, then if son is still wanting to pursue engineering and is still interested in Michigan, go ahead and transfer. A high percentage of people who begin in engineering don't stick with it.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
As a former employee of Well-known Engineering U, I can say that U Mich is up there with the top schools in ECE/ CS. UVa is solid. Don't know about Mechanical. US Snooze and World Report has rankings, maybe at the department level.
Tough choice, too bad you don't have a couple well-known privates to compare that might offer aid.
U Mich is huge (at least ECE/CS) and UVa might have a more personal experience.
Tough choice, too bad you don't have a couple well-known privates to compare that might offer aid.
U Mich is huge (at least ECE/CS) and UVa might have a more personal experience.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
For computer engineering / computer science, Michigan is miles ahead. Deep roots in the creation of the field, and alumni went on to found Google and other big tech companies. When we hire Michigan folks we pay top dollar, and it's super competitive to get them. Michigan has a strong leadership culture as well.
For aero/mechanical I'm not so sure, but probably less of a difference.
For the networking effect, Michigan will be much better.
In the end, I would say for CS/CE go Michigan, but most important is where you're child wants to go.
If they are going to these schools and graduating with an engineering degree, this will be a small difference financially.
For aero/mechanical I'm not so sure, but probably less of a difference.
For the networking effect, Michigan will be much better.
In the end, I would say for CS/CE go Michigan, but most important is where you're child wants to go.
If they are going to these schools and graduating with an engineering degree, this will be a small difference financially.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
I agree UMich, CS or CE, will pay for itself, if and when the student get good internships.
Second year and third year internships will pay $10+ K per month, so it adds up to save for the tuition. If the student gets admission to UMich engineering then the student should be good and will do well in the career.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Software engineer here (Math, CS)
UVa no question for CS at that price.
UVa is an excellent public school.
VT is probably stronger when it comes to traditional engineering.
But college is a 4 year thing. UVa is a more well rounded school and I think there's a lot of benefits to being surrounded by diverse set of people: liberal arts, etc.
As for job prospects and graduate school placements, according to forums like reddit, opportunities in those two are practically identical in the traditional engineering fields.
Also, apparently there's a higher female to male engineers in UVa than there are at VT (for some people like me, that can be a factor).
Personally, I found the humanities to be more enjoyable in college than the sciences.
I would take UVa any day over UMich and VT if I have UVa for in-state.
They are all overall excellent schools at undergrad level.
UVa has career outcomes in a very detailed way: https://career.virginia.edu/uva-career-outcomes
As for UMich: https://career.engin.umich.edu/career/salary-info/
I would take advantage of the data.
Reported 2019 data:
UVa Aerospace Median: $66.893k
UVa Mechanical Median: $74.5k
UVa Computer Science Median: $99k
UMich Aerospace Median: $74.5k
UMich Mechanical Median: $74k
UMich Computer Science Median: $101k
Starting salary in the real world is basically identical. These are the data. So in a pure monetary basis, UVa is the more 'financially right' answer.
UVa no question for CS at that price.
UVa is an excellent public school.
VT is probably stronger when it comes to traditional engineering.
But college is a 4 year thing. UVa is a more well rounded school and I think there's a lot of benefits to being surrounded by diverse set of people: liberal arts, etc.
As for job prospects and graduate school placements, according to forums like reddit, opportunities in those two are practically identical in the traditional engineering fields.
Also, apparently there's a higher female to male engineers in UVa than there are at VT (for some people like me, that can be a factor).
Personally, I found the humanities to be more enjoyable in college than the sciences.
I would take UVa any day over UMich and VT if I have UVa for in-state.
They are all overall excellent schools at undergrad level.
UVa has career outcomes in a very detailed way: https://career.virginia.edu/uva-career-outcomes
As for UMich: https://career.engin.umich.edu/career/salary-info/
I would take advantage of the data.
Reported 2019 data:
UVa Aerospace Median: $66.893k
UVa Mechanical Median: $74.5k
UVa Computer Science Median: $99k
UMich Aerospace Median: $74.5k
UMich Mechanical Median: $74k
UMich Computer Science Median: $101k
Starting salary in the real world is basically identical. These are the data. So in a pure monetary basis, UVa is the more 'financially right' answer.
Last edited by fwellimort on Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
faltuk1,
1) Then, it does not make any sense to go to Umich. UVa then.
2) Did he applied to VCU? It could be a lot cheaper than UVa.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Uva,
Uva is one of the best public schools in the country. I hear it is also one of the most beautiful.
I know 2 Uva EE grads who went on to get PhD s at MIT. You'll get a good undergrad education there.
Engineering school rankings are influenced by the quality of the grad school. They don't say a whole lot about the undergrad education. The only downside of going to a good college that is not well known for engineering is that fewer companies will interview on campus. I would assume that there's a way around this with enough effort. You might need to connect to alums.
If you go on to grad school then it doesn't matter at all.
Uva is one of the best public schools in the country. I hear it is also one of the most beautiful.
I know 2 Uva EE grads who went on to get PhD s at MIT. You'll get a good undergrad education there.
Engineering school rankings are influenced by the quality of the grad school. They don't say a whole lot about the undergrad education. The only downside of going to a good college that is not well known for engineering is that fewer companies will interview on campus. I would assume that there's a way around this with enough effort. You might need to connect to alums.
If you go on to grad school then it doesn't matter at all.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Its always interesting to compare the responses to these college choice questions here on Bogleheads with those on the College Confidential forums. I would urge the OP to also post this question on those forums for a different viewpoint.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Uva and VT are roughly equivalent. VCU is not.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
OP,
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... g-rankings
UMich #4
VTech #29
UNVa #41
If your kid wait listed at VTech, there is no point spending the extra 140K to go to UMich.
KlangFool
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... g-rankings
UMich #4
VTech #29
UNVa #41
If your kid wait listed at VTech, there is no point spending the extra 140K to go to UMich.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
- The national reputation of UMich and UVa is very similar. Both are top notch public schools.
- However, UMich is significantly better than UVa for engineering. Perhaps, VT has a similar reputation to UMich in engineering (especially at the undergraduate level) but I understand that it is not an option for now.
- Given the cost differential, I would recommend UVa. It is well-known and has a pretty good engineering program. If there is some interest in grad school, the decision of going to UVa becomes even easier.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Klangfool,KlangFool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:15 pm OP,
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-sc ... g-rankings
UMich #4
VTech #29
UNVa #41
If your kid wait listed at VTech, there is no point spending the extra 140K to go to UMich.
KlangFool
This may be a little misleading. Here is the ranking of these schools at the undergraduate level (which is more relevant to the OP):
UMich: #6
VT: #13
UVA: #37
Source
These are all great schools. Even though UVa ranking may seem much lower here, it does make up to some extent through its overall reputation.
So, I do agree with your suggestion of choosing UVa.
Last edited by HasHas on Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
gogleheads.orb,
If someone can get a full ride scholarship at VCU and save 120K, why not? Is it worth spending the extra 120K for an undergraduate engineering degree? In my case, for my son, the difference was only (6K per year for VCU) 24K less for VCU versus VTech (no scholarship). Hence, we choose VTech.
VCU gives out the most scholarship in Virginia. Especially for STEM.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Klangfool,KlangFool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:20 pm gogleheads.orb,
If someone can get a full ride scholarship at VCU and save 120K, why not? Is it worth spending the 120K extra for an undergraduate engineering degree? In my case, for my son, the difference was only (6K per year for VCU) 24K less for VCU versus VTech (no scholarship).
VCU gives out the most scholarship in Virginia. Especially for STEM.
KlangFool
VCU is a fine school without a doubt. In particular, its medical school is one of the best in the region. In engineering, here is how it compares to some of the other schools that have been discussed above.
UMich: #6
VT: #13
UVA: #37
VCU: #118
Source
It is not uncommon for schools that are a bit lower in the ranking to offer more scholarship and attract smart kids that may have otherwise gone to better schools. I think almost all schools do that some extent.
HasHas
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Went through this with my son recently and reached out to some faculty members (who I knew personally) to ask the in-state vs out of state questions. The responses I received was if both are accredited engineering schools, that will be the key feature. Sure, one may have other items that would push it over the other, but in the end, an employer will want certain qualities that accredited schools provide. I'd look at the cost and the ROI of one over the other and see how many years, after school, the monetary balance would be equal.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
They are basically identical for the median graduate out of college.Nebraska_Drought wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm I'd look at the cost and the ROI of one over the other and see how many years, after school, the monetary balance would be equal.
At least that's what the college career reports of both shows.
There is only a very few schools in the US that I would pay $140k additional premium over UVa.
If OP's son doesn't like UVa after the first year, OP's son can always transfer to out.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
HasHas,HasHas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:28 pmKlangfool,KlangFool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:20 pm gogleheads.orb,
If someone can get a full ride scholarship at VCU and save 120K, why not? Is it worth spending the 120K extra for an undergraduate engineering degree? In my case, for my son, the difference was only (6K per year for VCU) 24K less for VCU versus VTech (no scholarship).
VCU gives out the most scholarship in Virginia. Especially for STEM.
KlangFool
VCU is a fine school without a doubt. In particular, its medical school is one of the best in the region. In engineering, here is how it compares to some of the other schools that have been discussed above.
UMich: #6
VT: #13
UVA: #37
VCU: #118
Source
It is not uncommon for schools that are a bit lower in the ranking to offer more scholarship and attract smart kids that may have otherwise gone to better schools. I think almost all schools do that some extent.
HasHas
That is true in general except in most cases, the school is not rich enough to be generous. VCU is a rare exception. It is very rich. It is #3 in terms of endowment for Virginia.
https://www.virginiabusiness.com/articl ... ties-2019/
<< Published March 1, 2019 by Virginia Business
University 2018 endowment funds ($000)1
University of Virginia $6,953,380
University of Richmond 2,511,584
Virginia Commonwealth University 1,951,337
Washington and Lee University 1,603,114
Liberty University 1,432,964
Virginia Tech Foundation 1,146,055>>
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
UM grad, and in particular, the aero department. I was born in Ann Arbor, but moved to Texas when I was around 10. Went back up there because of family history (grandfather taught in the department). I paid out of state tuition. I tried to get residency, but the UM admin would have nothing of it. When it came time for grad school, I was accepted and they said "keep paying that out of state tuition". I got an offer from a top notch private university that was going to waive tuition and provide a stipend. Guess where I moved to?
While going there worked out great for me - my employment for the last 30 years has been with the same organization I had a student internship while an undergrad - financially it was not a great move. If it were today, there's no way I'd go as the cost doesn't justify the it. Going to a good quality engineering school is important, but even at my place of employment, we have folks from places outside the top 10.
I will say that no matter where you go, the undergrad curriculum is not sufficient to be a good engineer upon graduation. I'd learn more in 4 months on the job as a student than a semester in class. The BS is a license to work, but honestly internships or a graduate degree are needed to make a better early career engineer, in my opinion.
While going there worked out great for me - my employment for the last 30 years has been with the same organization I had a student internship while an undergrad - financially it was not a great move. If it were today, there's no way I'd go as the cost doesn't justify the it. Going to a good quality engineering school is important, but even at my place of employment, we have folks from places outside the top 10.
I will say that no matter where you go, the undergrad curriculum is not sufficient to be a good engineer upon graduation. I'd learn more in 4 months on the job as a student than a semester in class. The BS is a license to work, but honestly internships or a graduate degree are needed to make a better early career engineer, in my opinion.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
That's the crux of it I suppose. If you go into engineering, especially mechanical engineering, the key credential you're looking for is the PE license. Other engineering disciplines, I'm not so certain of, but here's what you need to get a PE taken from the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying website:Nebraska_Drought wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm if both are accredited engineering schools, that will be the key feature.
While each U.S. state/jurisdiction has its own laws concerning professional licensure, the requirements for the P.E. license generally follow this outline:
A bachelor’s or master’s degree in engineering from a program accredited by the Engineering Accreditation Commission (EAC) of ABET
An acceptable result on the FE exam
Four years of acceptable work experience in the candidate’s engineering discipline
An acceptable result on the PE exam in the candidate’s discipline
Effectively the student graduates from an ABET certified school and while they are still on campus, and before they go out into the real world, they take the FE exam. Passing the FE exam can net them the "Engineer In Training" designation. They get to put "EIT" after their name in their signature block, and proceed along the path to getting their license knowing that they are more valuable to whomever they work for than someone who doesn't have an EIT with a similar degree from another ABET certified school.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
KlangFool,KlangFool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:49 pm HasHas,
That is true in general except in most cases, the school is not rich enough to be generous. VCU is a rare exception. It is very rich. It is #3 in terms of endowment for Virginia.
https://www.virginiabusiness.com/articl ... ties-2019/
<< Published March 1, 2019 by Virginia Business
University 2018 endowment funds ($000)1
University of Virginia $6,953,380
University of Richmond 2,511,584
Virginia Commonwealth University 1,951,337
Washington and Lee University 1,603,114
Liberty University 1,432,964
Virginia Tech Foundation 1,146,055>>
KlangFool
That is a good piece of information. I wonder what portion of these endowment funds are used for undergraduate scholarships. Do you happen to have any data for that?
There are many other uses of the endowment funds, such as supporting research and teaching missions of the universities and establishing professorships and fellowships to attract top faculty.
HasHas
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
HasHas,HasHas wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:16 pmKlangFool,KlangFool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:49 pm HasHas,
That is true in general except in most cases, the school is not rich enough to be generous. VCU is a rare exception. It is very rich. It is #3 in terms of endowment for Virginia.
https://www.virginiabusiness.com/articl ... ties-2019/
<< Published March 1, 2019 by Virginia Business
University 2018 endowment funds ($000)1
University of Virginia $6,953,380
University of Richmond 2,511,584
Virginia Commonwealth University 1,951,337
Washington and Lee University 1,603,114
Liberty University 1,432,964
Virginia Tech Foundation 1,146,055>>
KlangFool
That is a good piece of information. I wonder what portion of these endowment funds are used for undergraduate scholarships. Do you happen to have any data for that?
There are many other uses of the endowment funds, such as supporting research and teaching missions of the universities and establishing professorships and fellowships to attract top faculty.
HasHas
If you did the research (college confidential or somewhere), you would find that VCU gives out the most number of scholarships in Virginia. Everyone get something if you are a decent student. I do not know where my daughter get the information. She did the work independently.
FYI. The VCU scholarship is merit based with no FAFSA filing requirement.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
KlangFool - Thanks, that is good to know.KlangFool wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:47 pm HasHas,
If you did the research (college confidential or somewhere), you would find that VCU gives out the most number of scholarships in Virginia. Everyone get something if you are a decent student. I do not know where my daughter get the information. She did the work independently.
FYI. The VCU scholarship is merit based with no FAFSA filing requirement.
KlangFool
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
My son went to UM OOS but our NY state schools are very mediocre. Yes, UM is very strong in every field and it worked to my son's advantage when he changed majors, but I don't see how you can spend the extra $ on the chance your son may change majors. Also, some UM programs were selective for people changing majors. My son had to apply for the new major and entry was competitive. Something to check on for cs.
when our oldest was entering hs, I suggested to my wife I take a transfer (in big tech) just so we could save around $500k on tuition for our three kids. My head would surely have exploded if somehow he ended up at U mich instead of Va state school.
seems like he has a chance at VT, wait list faq:
Last year, we were able to offer over 3,961 from the waitlist. In 2019, we were unable to make any offers. In 2018, we were able to offer 1,896 from our waitlist. In 2017 we were unable to make any offers. In 2016, we were able to offer 1,697 students from our waitlist. The number of students ultimately receiving offers from the waitlist is entirely dependent upon how many students accept the initial offer of admission and this varies from year to year.
https://vt.edu/admissions/frequently-as ... -list.html
when our oldest was entering hs, I suggested to my wife I take a transfer (in big tech) just so we could save around $500k on tuition for our three kids. My head would surely have exploded if somehow he ended up at U mich instead of Va state school.
seems like he has a chance at VT, wait list faq:
Last year, we were able to offer over 3,961 from the waitlist. In 2019, we were unable to make any offers. In 2018, we were able to offer 1,896 from our waitlist. In 2017 we were unable to make any offers. In 2016, we were able to offer 1,697 students from our waitlist. The number of students ultimately receiving offers from the waitlist is entirely dependent upon how many students accept the initial offer of admission and this varies from year to year.
https://vt.edu/admissions/frequently-as ... -list.html
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Send him to Uncle Tom's boarding school.
I say that as a Masters grad in EE from VT.
If he then wants a Masters.....there's where it depends. Schools excel in certain programs. When he knows his specialty, then he figures that out. Say he gets a mechanical engineering bachelors at that Wahoo school. Ok. He has fallen in love with the rigor and math of structural engineering. Well, if his grades get him in, VT has one of the best structural engineering programs in the country. So the combination of in state and the high level program, there ya go.
I say that as a Masters grad in EE from VT.
If he then wants a Masters.....there's where it depends. Schools excel in certain programs. When he knows his specialty, then he figures that out. Say he gets a mechanical engineering bachelors at that Wahoo school. Ok. He has fallen in love with the rigor and math of structural engineering. Well, if his grades get him in, VT has one of the best structural engineering programs in the country. So the combination of in state and the high level program, there ya go.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Speaking for CS, an undergrad degree is, as someone above posted, essentially a "license to work". In my experience hiring developers, I honestly gave no weight to where they got their degree vs. work experience and the interview process. Sure, there's top tier schools for CS, but those would have had me wondering "why are you applying here, and not at Google/MS/Apple" Grad school's another ballgame, but I think most people going into CS know pretty early on if that's for them or not (eg., "I want to be a software developer" vs. "I want to design a new programming language", etc).
What are your son's preferences? Was there anything about the specific aero or mech. eng programs he liked at one or the other, or was it more the total college experience?
What are your son's preferences? Was there anything about the specific aero or mech. eng programs he liked at one or the other, or was it more the total college experience?
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Other than those Michigan alums that bleed blue, I'm confident that the parents on CC would recommend staying instate unless the family is wealthy and can write those tuition checks without batting an eye.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
I'm an alumnus of UM's graduate engineering program. Getting into UM engineering for undergrad, especially as an out-of-state student, is very difficult, so congratulations to your kid. I've interviewed high school students to get into the CoE programs, and the caliber of students that don't get accepted is staggering.
That all being said, it really doesn't make sense to pay the extra money. VT would be a better engineering school than UVA, but UVA is obviously still a good school. I'm a bit surprised they got into UMich OOS but not VT, but know there's a lot of luck involved in college admissions.
If they really wanted to go the computer science route, there _may_ be a reason to prefer UM as the top tech companies recruit quite heavily from Michigan.
That all being said, it really doesn't make sense to pay the extra money. VT would be a better engineering school than UVA, but UVA is obviously still a good school. I'm a bit surprised they got into UMich OOS but not VT, but know there's a lot of luck involved in college admissions.
If they really wanted to go the computer science route, there _may_ be a reason to prefer UM as the top tech companies recruit quite heavily from Michigan.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Hard to justify that $35k/year difference. Maybe if DC is dead set on mechanical engineering and wants to work for a car company. Toyota and Hyundai are in Ann Arbor while all the American car companies are 1 hour east in the Detroit area.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
PEs are very uncommon in EE and CSSolair of Astora wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:59 pmThat's the crux of it I suppose. If you go into engineering, especially mechanical engineering, the key credential you're looking for is the PE license.Nebraska_Drought wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:29 pm if both are accredited engineering schools, that will be the key feature.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
This is the only difference as far as I'm concerned. Getting the summer internship at a Faang or programming for a hedge fund will be harder at Uva.ScaledWheel wrote: ↑Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:17 pm
If they really wanted to go the computer science route, there _may_ be a reason to prefer UM as the top tech companies recruit quite heavily from Michigan.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Hahaha them’s fightin words in VA!
And getting waitlisted at VT but into UVA? My how the times have changed...used to be a pulse was the only requirement to get into VT.
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Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
I would caution of reading too much into rankings and starting salaries. The college i attended sat at the top of the rankings for a couple of years and today sits around 60. Not even the top in the state now! If invested in the rankings, its hard to imagine how one's educstion can be degraded so mich in the eyes of a website. Of course, i attended many years before the college reached it's climax. But the point is the same - the college rankings are fun to talk about, but it has no besring in the real world.
The mind of an 18 to 20 year old is a fickle thing. Some take a much more difficult path. If everything goes perfect you are calculating the cost delta. But what if it doesn't??
I would say to stay local. Find the passion and pursue it in undergrad instead of "just getting by." And any starting salsry had by any other grsduate in engineering can be had by your son. And more recently, i haven't heard any one utter the words wishing they had spent more on their college education.
I'm a licensed engineer, if that matters. I would argue this advice applies to all college grads though....
The mind of an 18 to 20 year old is a fickle thing. Some take a much more difficult path. If everything goes perfect you are calculating the cost delta. But what if it doesn't??
I would say to stay local. Find the passion and pursue it in undergrad instead of "just getting by." And any starting salsry had by any other grsduate in engineering can be had by your son. And more recently, i haven't heard any one utter the words wishing they had spent more on their college education.
I'm a licensed engineer, if that matters. I would argue this advice applies to all college grads though....
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
VCU is a great school for pre-med track, they offer a guaranteed path if you take certain courses and meet the GPA requirements, and scholarship money is really good. Price and safe path to pre-med makes it a sound choice for in-state kids. Engineering/CS it isn't as attractive compared to VT obviously, and Uva engg. isn't great but the school has overall reputation so that goes a long way nationally. UMich vs UVa for in-state isn't very much to think about, the in-state tuition and national reputation put Uva ahead, except in pre-med VCU is a strong choice.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
$140k for OOS? DC could go to UVa and have a 25% down payment on a nice house in most MCOL cities.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
the 140k number is absolutely outrageous.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
As a Virginia alum I highly recommend! When I was undergrad at UVA I was friendly with a bunch of kids in the e-school. One thing they all had in common was that they were *smart* and they all got good jobs out of college. I’m sure no different at Michigan.
As someone above mentioned, if you are looking for an engineering adjacent career as opposed to hard engineering, I think UVA offers better opportunities, especially if you want to stay on the east coast.
As someone above mentioned, if you are looking for an engineering adjacent career as opposed to hard engineering, I think UVA offers better opportunities, especially if you want to stay on the east coast.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
This is what colleges cost these days, especially the large state schools if you go OOS, private is even more. Duke cost $280k+ for a 4 year undergrad with no merit. UMich is possibly close to $200K+ without merit for 4 years, and it isn't easy to get merit based admission at highly competitive schools like UMich and Uva. Speaking of which Uva in-state is $140K inclusive of all for 4 years (tuition, books, room & boarding). I know since I have a friend who is paying for a kid who had excellent stats, but still no merit.
I am not sure how OP is getting $35K difference per year, that sounds too much of a disparity between two schools that are very comparable. Unless they are getting some very generous grant from UVa, which is unheard of, as I said even for a kid with high stats. The numbers don't look right, unless UMich is full pay at $55K per year and Uva is $20k per year, which sounds nearly impossible unless there are some exceptions here.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
Uva engineering is around $40K/Year (Instate)Elysium wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:52 amThis is what colleges cost these days, especially the large state schools if you go OOS, private is even more. Duke cost $280k+ for a 4 year undergrad with no merit. UMich is possibly close to $200K+ without merit for 4 years, and it isn't easy to get merit based admission at highly competitive schools like UMich and Uva. Speaking of which Uva in-state is $140K inclusive of all for 4 years (tuition, books, room & boarding). I know since I have a friend who is paying for a kid who had excellent stats, but still no merit.
I am not sure how OP is getting $35K difference per year, that sounds too much of a disparity between two schools that are very comparable. Unless they are getting some very generous grant from UVa, which is unheard of, as I said even for a kid with high stats. The numbers don't look right, unless UMich is full pay at $55K per year and Uva is $20k per year, which sounds nearly impossible unless there are some exceptions here.
Umich is around $75K/Year (this is including travel cost etc) . This is OOS. UVA OOS cost is similar.
The above cost include Room, Board, Books , Fees etc.
Re: Engineering - Umich (OOS) - Uva (InState)
I think you are right about costs being higher for UM than what I originally reported based on the U-M NPC calc, which says the following:faltuk1 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:17 amUva engineering is around $40K/Year (Instate)Elysium wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:52 amThis is what colleges cost these days, especially the large state schools if you go OOS, private is even more. Duke cost $280k+ for a 4 year undergrad with no merit. UMich is possibly close to $200K+ without merit for 4 years, and it isn't easy to get merit based admission at highly competitive schools like UMich and Uva. Speaking of which Uva in-state is $140K inclusive of all for 4 years (tuition, books, room & boarding). I know since I have a friend who is paying for a kid who had excellent stats, but still no merit.
I am not sure how OP is getting $35K difference per year, that sounds too much of a disparity between two schools that are very comparable. Unless they are getting some very generous grant from UVa, which is unheard of, as I said even for a kid with high stats. The numbers don't look right, unless UMich is full pay at $55K per year and Uva is $20k per year, which sounds nearly impossible unless there are some exceptions here.
Umich is around $75K/Year (this is including travel cost etc) . This is OOS. UVA OOS cost is similar.
The above cost include Room, Board, Books , Fees etc.
Estimated Cost of Attendance
Tuition & Fees $52,472
Room & Board $12,034
Books & Supplies $1,048
Personal Expenses $2,454
Total $68,008
This is without merit, and no financial aid, for parents with average $200k HHI and $500k in investments. It's as high as it gets.
I wouldn't add travel cost though as that can vary and depends on how much each individual chose to travel. But, I get the point, the costs are significantly higher, I didn't realize UM was that expensive for OOS, almost on par with privates. In this case, I really wouldn't pay for my son to go to UM if he also had UVA offer. It's a no brainer.
Last edited by Elysium on Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:34 am, edited 2 times in total.