Digital Music/Audio Makeover

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Topic Author
Hubris
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Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Hubris »

Hi everyone,
Perhaps similar to portfolio simplification, I’d like to simplify and streamline out approach to music at home. Thanks in advance for any suggestions you can provide. Looking for relative simplicity, good audio quality but not audiophile, trying to avoid major DIY IT projects. Costs are not a primary consideration compared to getting the right setup in place.

Here’s where we are now:

DENON HEOS (speakers are HEOS 5) for last 5 yrs, with attached turntable & CD player. General experience has been satisfactory but not great. System seems glitchy and with dropouts especially when playing CDs and LPs. Since relocation in last year, never hooked up the turntable or CD player due to layout. And, since we moved, the HEOS seems more stable, not sure if due to new layout of Google Mesh, better internet capacity or not having CDs/LPs hooked up?

Would like to use turntable again with about 400 LPs and can fix layout to accommodate that if we continue with HEOS or move to Sonos or something else. I ripped all of our CDs last year to both Apple Lossless and FLAC. The combined files size for the Apple Lossless shows at about 200 GB, and about 9500 items.

Listening Habits: most evenings for 1-2 hrs, usually Pandora since we don’t have CDs/LPs connected and haven’t yet figured out the strategy for ripped CD tracks. Also listen to radio occasionally via TuneIn. Stereo is set up for main living area only. Would be interested in access to a supplemental living area in basement also, perhaps keeping the main system there along with turntable and LPs since we don’t want the LPs upstairs due to space constraints, then adding a couple of remote speakers to main living area upstairs. Usually listen to a mix of Blues, Folk, Rock: about 60% mainstream, 40% niche?

IT: Google Mesh WiFi with strong coverage. For mobile, we have iPhones and iPads, and for computers we have Dell PC laptops.

Questions (that I know to ask):
1. What is the best way to access and play the digital CD tracks? A friend is telling me he uses Apple Music for his extensive library that is both ripped and purchased tracks. Is this better than using iTunes? Will I have storage capacity issues given the amount of CD tracks we have ripped and/or we able to play the lossless formatted tracks?

2. Would changeover from Denon HEOS to Sonos be any substantial improvement?

3. Other suggestions/What else should I be asking about?
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Bogle7
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Better Audio

Post by Bogle7 »

Old fart who does three index stock funds, baby.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Doom&Gloom »

Start with AVS forums https://www.avsforum.com

You will get some good suggestions on BH, but AVS forums is a more in-depth resource for your question.
Topic Author
Hubris
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Hubris »

Doom&Gloom wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:51 pm Start with AVS forums https://www.avsforum.com

You will get some good suggestions on BH, but AVS forums is a more in-depth resource for your question.
+1
Dottie57
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Dottie57 »

OP,

You realize SONOS s streaming music, right? CDs can can be ripped into mp3 or an Apple format files and sent to a Sonos speaker via Airplay2. Sonos makes an amplifier where inputs are streaming services, airplay2, CD player, turntable and played on your speakers .

I am sure there are other solutions too.

Sonos amp.

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/amp.html
Topic Author
Hubris
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Hubris »

Dottie57 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:34 pm OP,

You realize SONOS s streaming music, right? CDs can can be ripped into mp3 or an Apple format files and sent to a Sonos speaker via Airplay2. Sonos makes an amplifier where inputs are streaming services, airplay2, CD player, turntable and played on your speakers .

I am sure there are other solutions too.

Sonos amp.

https://www.sonos.com/en-us/shop/amp.html
thanks, and yes, I already realize most of what you’ve posted, although I didn’t know about airplay2. One of my challenges is figuring out how to access the ripped CD files. I’ve got them on an external hard drive and also backed up to the cloud. I can put them on my laptop’s hard drive (1TB) but still need to figure out best way to stream to HEOS, or SONOS.
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telemark
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by telemark »

Sonos supports pulling music from a local SMB share. You can set one up on a computer running Windows, MacOs, or Linux, or get a NAS and use that. The catch is that Sonos only supports version 1 of the SMB protocol, which has known security holes, so there is some risk if someone gets past the firewall in your router. There is a lot of discussion here:

viewtopic.php?p=5471462#p5471462

Once that is set up, you can use the Sonos interface to make play lists or search by artist, song title, album title, genre, or composer, assuming your rips have tags for those.
marc in merrimack
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by marc in merrimack »

I take it from this discussion that there is no way to ‘simply’ rip CD’s to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
onourway
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by onourway »

You can sign up for iTunes Match which for $25/year will make your personal files available in the cloud for streaming.

That said, if music is important in your life, and you want to have it for multiple users in multiple locations in the home, I’d strongly suggest simply subscribing to Apple Music or Spotify so that you will have access to a much larger library at a whim. For years I had multiple dedicated listening areas with meticulously ripped and tagged tracks, etc. but honestly would never go back given the convenience of streaming music. Even a library of hundreds or thousands of albums seems impossibly small now. Our music universe is so much larger and we make good use of it.

When you listen are you sitting in a specific location where the speakers can be placed in the ideal location in front of you?. For the LP’s - do you enjoy the process of handling the records and playing them? If so, then you might consider splurging for high end speakers and equipment to go with it.

If your listening is more background to other tasks - reading, working, living, etc. then I think a system like Sonos is a much better fit (although a dedicated area like above, plus Sonos for the rest of the house is great too). We are all-in with the Apple HomePod which they’ve unfortunately decided to discontinue (the larger model) for the time being, but Sonos would probably be my second choice for whole-house audio at this point, with a possibility of using various Airplay 2 compatible speakers as we are all-in with Apple Music rather than Spotify.

Lots of great options right now.
vabeek
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by vabeek »

I would consider a Vortexbox. This is a linux front end for the discontinued logitech squeezebox system. Logitech has made its software "LMS" open source for over ten years and it is well supported by a large community.

The beauty of Vortexbox is that it meets a number of Boglehead criteria: efficient, extremely low cost, as complicated as you want it to be, and superior performance to most other products on the market. It can be as simple as ripping music automatically to any format (flac, mp3, etc.) and serving it either directly to your receiver or to multiple other devices wirelessly throughout your home (including Sonos). It has minimal hardware requirements - i'm still using a HP Proliant Microserver N40L circa 2011 essentially running continuously without any issue. The Library can be customized further with a Tag editor and displayed in any number variations.

The interface on your phone can be very sophisticated - a popular iphone app is iPeng. I have used a free android app "Squeezer" for years without issue. To my knowledge, security issues mentioned on the prior thread with Sonos are moot. Security within Linux is easy to adjust as sharing permissions are inherent within the file system.

I believe there are "Plug-ins" that allow streaming services to serve as your music library. I don't subscribe, or use them so I don't know how well they are implemented.

I would recommend trying it out on any old pc-type machine from the last 10-15 years. I would spend the money saved by using Vortexbox on those new speakers.
Last edited by vabeek on Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by 02nz »

Sonos is very good in my experience - easy to use, reliable, surprisingly good sound quality even from my $300 One SL speakers. Add a Sub for something approaching audiophile sound, or go with a pair of Fives ($1K).

If willing to go higher still, the KEF LS50 Wireless II ($2500) is probably the best sound you can get in an all-in-one system at that price point.

Any of the above will support AirPlay.
02nz
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Re: Better Audio

Post by 02nz »

Bogle7 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:26 pm Start with new speakers — https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/800-series
Starting at $4K/pair - for passive speakers only, no source and no amplification.

The 800 series was legendary. They are still good speakers, but there are now far more competitors in that price range.

They do also make the Formation series of lifestyle speakers, e.g., the Duo for $4K, amplification included. But there are way better values, like the LS50 Wireless II.
Last edited by 02nz on Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
onourway
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by onourway »

vabeek wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:47 am I would recommend trying it out on any old pc-type machine from the last 10-15 years. I would spend the money saved by using Vortexbox on those new speakers.
If you are running a dedicated computer - especially something left over of that age - any savings are purely illusory. Even running headless, that type of computer is likely to consume 100w. At .12/kwhr, that's over $100/year just in electricity - before you factor any of your time and effort setting it up, maintaining it, additional hardware, etc.

Once I realized this about a decade ago I got rid of all of my home servers and went to the cloud for everything - files, music, tv, movies. If you like doing this stuff as a hobby, and/or you want something specific you can't get from a commercial service, great. But most people will have a much easier time (and save money) by subscribing to these services.
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tcassette
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by tcassette »

I would consider a late model Denon receiver that supports streaming services and HEOS. Hook your CD player and turntable to the receiver in the basement, and use suitable hard wired speakers. Use the HEOS speakers upstairs. The receiver can be controlled via phone app or computer. Regarding the ripped CDs, either forego them by using a streaming service like Spotify (which will have CD quality available this year), or get a basic Network Attached Storage unit like Synology to store and stream your files locally. The reliability and speed of your internet service should be a factor in your decisions. Do you want to depend on the internet for music, or do you prefer to have it sourced in your home?

I prefer modern multi-zone receivers and NAS systems independent of the internet for my collection, but able to access streaming services for diversity.
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telemark
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by telemark »

marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am I take it from this discussion that there is no way to ‘simply’ rip CD’s to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
Now that you mention it, that works with the few files on my Android tablet, and I assume on iOS devices as well. The Sonos app has to remain active on your phone during playback.
rgs92
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by rgs92 »

marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am I take it from this discussion that there is no way to ‘simply’ rip CD’s to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
It's easy as pie. One super easy way is to get Jriver. It costs about $60 but is the mainstream and most popular software package for managing and using your entire digital music (and video) library. You can save your CDs in any format you want, and the most popular format is FLAC.

Jriver has a large user community/forum that is always willing to help out.

https://jriver.com/

There are freeware ways also, but Jriver is well worth it. Jriver is also known as Media Center or MC for short.
(Jriver updates with new versions, and you have to pay to update, but it's not really necessary if the version you have works for you. You really never have to upgrade if you don't want to.)

The most popular freeware used to easily save your CDs as FLAC files is EAC, Exact Audio Copy.
https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

It works fine but is not as comprehensive for full-digital-library-management suite purposes as Jriver. You use Jriver as a player system with playlists and as a music organization too. And it has audio tools like Equalization and more.
Last edited by rgs92 on Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Doom&Gloom »

vabeek wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:47 am I would consider a Vortexbox. This is a linux front end for the discontinued logitech squeezebox system. Logitech has made its software "LMS" open source for over ten years and it is well supported by a large community.

The beauty of Vortexbox is that it meets a number of Boglehead criteria: efficient, extremely low cost, as complicated as you want it to be, and superior performance to most other products on the market. It can be as simple as ripping music automatically to any format (flac, mp3, etc.) and serving it either directly to your receiver or to multiple other devices wirelessly throughout your home (including Sonos). It has minimal hardware requirements - i'm still using a HP Proliant Microserver N40L circa 2011 essentially running continuously without any issue. The Library can be customized further with a Tag editor and displayed in any number variations.

The interface on your phone can be very sophisticated - a popular iphone app is iPeng. I have used a free android app "Squeezer" for years without issue. To my knowledge, security issues mentioned on the prior thread with Sonos are moot. Security within Linux is easy to adjust as sharing permissions are inherent within the file system.

I believe there are "Plug-ins" that allow streaming services to serve as your music library. I don't subscribe, or use them so I don't know how well they are implemented.

I would recommend trying it out on any old pc-type machine from the last 10-15 years. I would spend the money saved by using Vortexbox on those new speakers.
This is a great suggestion! I have been using the Logitech Squeezebox system for years, and nothing else comes close to it. I have always declined to recommend it to anyone since Logitech abandoned it and it certainly is not plug-and-play. However, I had not considered the Vortexbox as an entry point to the system.

As I type this I am listening to mixed playlists of my ripped flac music with streaming from Spotify via my Squeezebox system. The community supporting this system has been awesome and taken it to heights that Logitech never would have. I currently have only two original Logitech devices remaining in my system, but I have added and replaced players using Raspberry Pi's.
bloom2708
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by bloom2708 »

I have a Bluetooth enabled Denon PMA-610NE 2 channel receiver/integrate amp. Reasonable price.

I listen to Pandora/Apple Music. Tried Tidal, but Bluetooth can't capture any bonus detail.

I have a B&W 300 sub and love trying different main speakers. Bookshelf and floor standing. A covid re-invented hobby.

Of course speakers and receivers are a cash black hole that is difficult to escape the pull.
marc in merrimack
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by marc in merrimack »

telemark wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:37 am
marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am I take it from this discussion that there is no way to ‘simply’ rip CD’s to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
Now that you mention it, that works with the few files on my Android tablet, and I assume on iOS devices as well. The Sonos app has to remain active on your phone during playback.
What I’m missing is the process flow (and possible apps required) for getting Flac files from my laptop to the iPhone and creating and organizing a music library on the phone from which I can then easily select and stream the music files.
marc in merrimack
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by marc in merrimack »

rgs92 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:01 pm
marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am I take it from this discussion that there is no way to ‘simply’ rip CD’s to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
It's easy as pie. One super easy way is to get Jriver. It costs about $60 but is the mainstream and most popular software package for managing and using your entire digital music (and video) library. You can save your CDs in any format you want, and the most popular format is FLAC.

Jriver has a large user community/forum that is always willing to help out.

https://jriver.com/

There are freeware ways also, but Jriver is well worth it. Jriver is also known as Media Center or MC for short.
(Jriver updates with new versions, and you have to pay to update, but it's not really necessary if the version you have works for you. You really never have to upgrade if you don't want to.)

The most popular freeware used to easily save your CDs as FLAC files is EAC, Exact Audio Copy.
https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

It works fine but is not as comprehensive for full-digital-library-management suite purposes as Jriver. You use Jriver as a player system with playlists and as a music organization too. And it has audio tools like Equalization and more.
Thanks for this. Helpful!

My only hesitation would be the cost of Jriver given that I have only a modest collection of CD’s which I don’t anticipate adding to at this point. But I’ll have a look at Jriver and possible alternatives.
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telemark
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by telemark »

marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:46 pm
telemark wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:37 am
marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am I take it from this discussion that there is no way to simply rip CDs to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
Now that you mention it, that works with the few files on my Android tablet, and I assume on iOS devices as well. The Sonos app has to remain active on your phone during playback.
What Im missing is the process flow (and possible apps required) for getting Flac files from my laptop to the iPhone and creating and organizing a music library on the phone from which I can then easily select and stream the music files.
On Android you can browse "This Mobile Device" from the Sonos app. I assumed (yeah yeah) that iOS would be similar, but it turns out that on iOS you have to use Airplay. Which I have no experience with, but perhaps someone can provide a more useful answer.
123
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by 123 »

I tried Sonos and loved the sound and ease of using it with music services as well as my own music. But I ended up returning it. I wanted to keep it but my stumbling block was the dependency on Sonos servers for the system to work. I ended up going with bluetooth speakers, their operation doesn't depend on an external provider like Sonos who could go out of business or decide that they didn't want to support the (sooner or later older) Sonos version I had.
The closest helping hand is at the end of your own arm.
Topic Author
Hubris
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by Hubris »

Thanks everyone, most of the feedback really helps. Combined with a lot of internet research over the weekend, here’s what I’m thinking:

- A pair of Sonos 5’s for upstairs/main living area.
- Wait on basement setup as we need to get some additional furniture, etc.
- Experiment with Ripped CD tracks via Apple Music and Laptop (as “substitute” for NAS).
- I also like the idea of connecting turntable (with phono preamp) directly into a 5, so can experiment with that in living room temporarily until ready for basement.
- When time for basement, consider adding a Sonos Port and a Sonos 1 XL, or just another Sonos 5.
- Also, think about Qobuz or Tidal during all of this.
rgs92
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by rgs92 »

marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:50 pm
rgs92 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:01 pm
marc in merrimack wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:53 am I take it from this discussion that there is no way to ‘simply’ rip CD’s to Flac format, transfer the files to an iPhone and create a music library, and then stream as desired to Sonos. Am I right?

Must the process involve some external networking/storage hardware?
It's easy as pie. One super easy way is to get Jriver. It costs about $60 but is the mainstream and most popular software package for managing and using your entire digital music (and video) library. You can save your CDs in any format you want, and the most popular format is FLAC.

Jriver has a large user community/forum that is always willing to help out.

https://jriver.com/

There are freeware ways also, but Jriver is well worth it. Jriver is also known as Media Center or MC for short.
(Jriver updates with new versions, and you have to pay to update, but it's not really necessary if the version you have works for you. You really never have to upgrade if you don't want to.)

The most popular freeware used to easily save your CDs as FLAC files is EAC, Exact Audio Copy.
https://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

It works fine but is not as comprehensive for full-digital-library-management suite purposes as Jriver. You use Jriver as a player system with playlists and as a music organization too. And it has audio tools like Equalization and more.
Thanks for this. Helpful!

My only hesitation would be the cost of Jriver given that I have only a modest collection of CD’s which I don’t anticipate adding to at this point. But I’ll have a look at Jriver and possible alternatives.
Here is a good beginners guide(from cNet) for using Exact Audio Copy to convert your CDs to FLAC files. It's free.
It's pretty easy.

https://www.cnet.com/how-to/how-to-rip- ... s-to-flac/
rgs92
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Re: Better Audio

Post by rgs92 »

02nz wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 am
Bogle7 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:26 pm Start with new speakers — https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/800-series
Starting at $4K/pair - for passive speakers only, no source and no amplification.

The 800 series was legendary. They are still good speakers, but there are now far more competitors in that price range.

They do also make the Formation series of lifestyle speakers, e.g., the Duo for $4K, amplification included. But there are way better values, like the LS50 Wireless II.
The KEF LS50 Wireless is awesome and I recommend it highly. Note that I am talking about the *original* LS50 Wireless speakers since I have never heard the new "2" version. But the original version is probably still available new at a good price, so if you can find one, I would grab a pair.
02nz
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Re: Better Audio

Post by 02nz »

rgs92 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:39 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 am
Bogle7 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 1:26 pm Start with new speakers — https://www.bowerswilkins.com/home-audio/800-series
Starting at $4K/pair - for passive speakers only, no source and no amplification.

The 800 series was legendary. They are still good speakers, but there are now far more competitors in that price range.

They do also make the Formation series of lifestyle speakers, e.g., the Duo for $4K, amplification included. But there are way better values, like the LS50 Wireless II.
The KEF LS50 Wireless is awesome and I recommend it highly. Note that I am talking about the *original* LS50 Wireless speakers since I have never heard the new "2" version. But the original version is probably still available new at a good price, so if you can find one, I would grab a pair.
I have not heard the newer version, but the reviews I've read say the LS50 Meta (passive) and Wireless II (active) are significant improvements over the original. Of note, the Wireless II supports AirPlay and the original Wireless does not. With the original you're pretty much stuck with KEF's (pretty terrible) app if you want high-fidelity streaming, meaning not Bluetooth.
JackieBog46
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by JackieBog46 »

This might be more than you want in terms of sound quality but it's something to consider: The Naim Unity Atom. You would still need a separate front end for your CD's unless you have these files on your phone, iPad, a USB stick, etc. (in which case you're all set), but this would give you internet radio/Spotify/Pandora/Tidal access and, importantly, sounds just as good being streamed over wi-fi as it does with a "plugged-in" device. They keep referring to it's price as $4,600 but, in reality, it's $3,200. Just something for your consideration...

https://www.themasterswitch.com/naim-uniti-atom-review
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lthenderson
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Re: Digital Music/Audio Makeover

Post by lthenderson »

I'm not an audiophile. But what I did was just rip my music to my computer, uploaded it to Amazon Prime account and play it through my Echo smart device. No subscription costs, no equipment to deal with or changing CD's/records all the time. But the app to upload the music on the Echo has been discontinued so only what I have on there is grandfathered in. I can't add or change anything anymore. I've heard the Google smart device still allows one to do so but I don't have one.
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