Need Help Buying Car, part 2

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Topic Author
asdfgf
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

So, I'm planning on buying a new vehicle, and my plan is to just email a bunch of dealers and see who will get me the best price out the door. I have done all the research I need to do and I'm now at the email step.

I used this technique over 10 yrs ago to buy a new car, and it worked well, but it seems like things have changed a bit.

I'm looking for some tips on what to put in my general email out to the dealers. Here are some specific questions/issues I'm thinking about.

1. Is there any info I should definitely include in the email? Anything I definitely should not include?

2. When I did it last time, it seems that every dealer website had an email address listed somewhere that I could contact. So far 0/7 of the dealers I have looked at have this info on their site. That seems weird. Am I just missing something here? They do all have some sort of online form I can fill out, so I did that in the hope that they will email me back and then I can send them my request for a bid.

3. I am pretty sure that the vehicle with the exact combination of features that I want either doesn't exist or maybe there are one or two of them in the entire country. There might be a few more if I'm willing to accept some additional stuff (but that increases the cost, and that's the only reason I don't want it). So it looks like I might need the vehicle to be ordered. Any special tips for this situation? I'm not in a rush. I could easily wait six months. But I also want to close the deal soon and get this off my plate. Does having the dealer order the vehicle change my strategy in any way?
hudson
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

A contributor posted in Denovo's car buying discussion that he/she did not send a direct email to each dealership.
He found a link on the website and put his message there. viewtopic.php?p=5835369#p5835369
I like to go to each dealer that I contact and see if they have what I want.
Denovo likes the email method and it works for him and many others. I prefer to call a dealer at the end of the month and tell them that I'm a serious buyer and I want an out the door quote on specific vehicle X. I say that I'm going to make a purchase in say two days. I don't care to say much more. I shut up and let them talk. Because it's true, I want them to know that they have a serious buyer who's going to buy a car immediately. By talking with a live person, the dealership is on notice immediately. If they want to sell a vehicle, they know what to do.....give me a price.
When I started this I used James Bragg's paid information and coaching service. It costs $50 now. I got my money back by getting a fair deal.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:02 pm
3. I am pretty sure that the vehicle with the exact combination of features that I want either doesn't exist or maybe there are one or two of them in the entire country. There might be a few more if I'm willing to accept some additional stuff (but that increases the cost, and that's the only reason I don't want it). So it looks like I might need the vehicle to be ordered. Any special tips for this situation? I'm not in a rush. I could easily wait six months. But I also want to close the deal soon and get this off my plate. Does having the dealer order the vehicle change my strategy in any way?
You'll never get bids on a hard to get vehicle. I would just order it and pay the price. Maybe you could go through the order process with 2 or 3 dealers. I've never ordered a vehicle.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I did this when ordering my Jeep. The dealer didn't seem to care that I was ordering vs taking a vehicle off the lot. I paid for nothing I didn't want, got everything I wanted and got the color I wanted.

If you are putting together some undesirable combination of options, you're not going to easily find it. If you wanted zero options, dealers of all cars always have one of these for the cheapos like me who don't want to pay $3500 for power windows.

You can do a "build and price" on the manufacturer's website, then use that info and send it to all the dealers. Ask for the price, including all their required fees and that you're ready to put in your order. You will get responses that let you weed out dealers you're not going to buy from. Some will give you no price and ask you to go there. Nope. Some give overly high prices. Nope. Of those giving you a price, feel free to shop the lowest price to the dealer closest to you to see if they'll play ball.

Go to either Home or Contact on the website. That's where you find either an email address or a form you can fill out.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:02 pm So, I'm planning on buying a new vehicle, and my plan is to just email a bunch of dealers and see who will get me the best price out the door. I have done all the research I need to do and I'm now at the email step.

I used this technique over 10 yrs ago to buy a new car, and it worked well, but it seems like things have changed a bit.

I'm looking for some tips on what to put in my general email out to the dealers. Here are some specific questions/issues I'm thinking about.

1. Is there any info I should definitely include in the email? Anything I definitely should not include?

2. When I did it last time, it seems that every dealer website had an email address listed somewhere that I could contact. So far 0/7 of the dealers I have looked at have this info on their site. That seems weird. Am I just missing something here? They do all have some sort of online form I can fill out, so I did that in the hope that they will email me back and then I can send them my request for a bid.

3. I am pretty sure that the vehicle with the exact combination of features that I want either doesn't exist or maybe there are one or two of them in the entire country. There might be a few more if I'm willing to accept some additional stuff (but that increases the cost, and that's the only reason I don't want it). So it looks like I might need the vehicle to be ordered. Any special tips for this situation? I'm not in a rush. I could easily wait six months. But I also want to close the deal soon and get this off my plate. Does having the dealer order the vehicle change my strategy in any way?

Every dealer I am aware of has a list of their inventory online. Also, when you locate the specific car in their inventory, there is usually a contact link or form you can fill out. What you will usually find is that there is a popular set of options on certain trims and you will see it from multiple dealers. If you can find something like that from multiple dealers that is a reasonable approximation of hat you want then you engage in the bidding war, and track the vins you are bidding on from each dealer.

If you have a specific combination that you insist on , as jack said, you can still do the bidding war but first do the build a car on the manufacturer's website and save that as a pdf, and request pricing.

To establish I am a serious buyer, I say something like I have test-driven this car and wish to buy. I will not trade-on or do any financing. Please provide me with your otd best price. My zip for tax purposes is XXXXX.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Thanks for the responses.

I have a few follow-up questions:

1. One way I could relax my requirements is accept any color and get it painted. Anyone have any experience with that. It would eat into any savings, but if I'm going to get a worse deal on a factory order, maybe I can consider it.

2. As far as zip code for tax purposes, I know you pay the tax in the state that you title it in. But what about local taxes (city/county)? Are those based on where you buy the car or where you live. Sales tax is 1-2% lower in counties adjacent to mine.

FYI, the vehicle is a 2021 Chrysler Pacifica, so it's not exactly a hard to get vehicle, but for some reason the specific combination I'm looking for isn't that common.
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm Thanks for the responses.


2. As far as zip code for tax purposes, I know you pay the tax in the state that you title it in. But what about local taxes (city/county)? Are those based on where you buy the car or where you live. Sales tax is 1-2% lower in counties adjacent to mine.

FYI, the vehicle is a 2021 Chrysler Pacifica, so it's not exactly a hard to get vehicle, but for some reason the specific combination I'm looking for isn't that common.
Sales tax for vehicle depends on your state laws. In CA, sales tax is determined by the city/county of the purchaser not the city/county of the dealer. That's why I provide my zip +4 to the dealer so they can give me an accurate OTD. This may not be applicable to you. In some states, it's based on the location of the dealer.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
flarf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by flarf »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm 1. One way I could relax my requirements is accept any color and get it painted. Anyone have any experience with that. It would eat into any savings, but if I'm going to get a worse deal on a factory order, maybe I can consider it.
It is extremely difficult and expensive to repaint a car and do it well. You'd also impair the value of the vehicle by doing so.

There are Pacifica-specific forums with buying experiences -- I'd be looking at those. I would not assume you're going to get a bad deal on a factory order.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

flarf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:57 pm
asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm 1. One way I could relax my requirements is accept any color and get it painted. Anyone have any experience with that. It would eat into any savings, but if I'm going to get a worse deal on a factory order, maybe I can consider it.
It is extremely difficult and expensive to repaint a car and do it well. You'd also impair the value of the vehicle by doing so.

There are Pacifica-specific forums with buying experiences -- I'd be looking at those. I would not assume you're going to get a bad deal on a factory order.
Thanks. This was what my intuition told me but I didn't know for sure. Wife strongly prefers a certain color. Pushing her off that is going to be tough.
humblecoder
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by humblecoder »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm One way I could relax my requirements is accept any color and get it painted. Anyone have any experience with that. It would eat into any savings, but if I'm going to get a worse deal on a factory order, maybe I can consider it.
DO. NOT. DO. THIS.

This is like paying dollars to save pennies. To get a decent paint job, you are looking at several thousand dollars. Are you really going to save that much by taking a car off the lot in a non-preferred color vs a factory order? Doubtful.

I've done a factory order for a configuration that wasn't on the lot, since I wanted a somewhat non-standard configuration. Still got a discount off of MSRP plus a factory rebate (the policy at the time was to give you the factory rebate that was in place at the time of delivery, not order, but this may vary by company). I thought that the dealer was going to pressure me to take something off the lot, but surprisingly they did not. I guess they would rather have the order than not.

I ended up getting the exact car I wanted (color, options) at what I thought was a fair price. The only downside was that I had to wait 4 months to get the car, but since my need wasn't immediate, I didn't mind waiting.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:34 pm
asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm Thanks for the responses.


2. As far as zip code for tax purposes, I know you pay the tax in the state that you title it in. But what about local taxes (city/county)? Are those based on where you buy the car or where you live. Sales tax is 1-2% lower in counties adjacent to mine.

FYI, the vehicle is a 2021 Chrysler Pacifica, so it's not exactly a hard to get vehicle, but for some reason the specific combination I'm looking for isn't that common.
Sales tax for vehicle depends on your state laws. In CA, sales tax is determined by the city/county of the purchaser not the city/county of the dealer. That's why I provide my zip +4 to the dealer so they can give me an accurate OTD. This may not be applicable to you. In some states, it's based on the location of the dealer.
Thanks. I spent some time looking it up and in my state it depends on where I reside.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

humblecoder wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 2:37 pm
asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm One way I could relax my requirements is accept any color and get it painted. Anyone have any experience with that. It would eat into any savings, but if I'm going to get a worse deal on a factory order, maybe I can consider it.
DO. NOT. DO. THIS.

This is like paying dollars to save pennies. To get a decent paint job, you are looking at several thousand dollars. Are you really going to save that much by taking a car off the lot in a non-preferred color vs a factory order? Doubtful.

I've done a factory order for a configuration that wasn't on the lot, since I wanted a somewhat non-standard configuration. Still got a discount off of MSRP plus a factory rebate (the policy at the time was to give you the factory rebate that was in place at the time of delivery, not order, but this may vary by company). I thought that the dealer was going to pressure me to take something off the lot, but surprisingly they did not. I guess they would rather have the order than not.

I ended up getting the exact car I wanted (color, options) at what I thought was a fair price. The only downside was that I had to wait 4 months to get the car, but since my need wasn't immediate, I didn't mind waiting.
Thanks. I will take this option completely off the table.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

So here is one more specific question that I have.

Should I mention that I'm willing to have them order the vehicle (and that I can wait) in the initial email?
rooms222
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by rooms222 »

I would get Ocean Blue exterior with the Rodeo Red seats inside. I think that is a rare combination.
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:09 pm So here is one more specific question that I have.

Should I mention that I'm willing to have them order the vehicle (and that I can wait) in the initial email?
You're making this too complicated.

If you can find a reasonable approximation of what you want from multiple dealers, start bidding based on the their stock. Put some time and actually check the inventories.

If you can't find anything, build your own vehicle through Chrysler, and tell them you want a factory order, and ask for the best OTD price to multiple dealers.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:31 pm
asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:09 pm So here is one more specific question that I have.

Should I mention that I'm willing to have them order the vehicle (and that I can wait) in the initial email?
You're making this too complicated.

If you can find a reasonable approximation of what you want from multiple dealers, start bidding based on the their stock. Put some time and actually check the inventories.

If you can't find anything, build your own vehicle through Chrysler, and tell them you want a factory order, and ask for the best OTD price to multiple dealers.
Thanks again. I've checked all dealer's stock within 80 miles. The closest I found was missing one critical feature.

So I guess I'll just open with factory order.
adestefan
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by adestefan »

You’re being too picky to get the best deal. Just email 3 or 4 dealers with your exact specifications and pick the best price. Be aware you may have to wait a number of months for the production line to get to your order if you’re ordering something that’s not showing up in anyone’s stock. The dealers also won’t be able to get you an accurate timeline on when it will be delivered. Asking anything else is just wasting your time.
rockstar
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by rockstar »

Are you looking to buy now?

If I was a dealer, I'd jack up the prices. Lots of people got stimulus, and I'd like a piece of it. And they're also getting tax refunds too. Lots of money slushing around right now.

How do you plan to negotiate when lots of people just got a windfall?
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

adestefan wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:30 pm You’re being too picky to get the best deal. Just email 3 or 4 dealers with your exact specifications and pick the best price. Be aware you may have to wait a number of months for the production line to get to your order if you’re ordering something that’s not showing up in anyone’s stock. The dealers also won’t be able to get you an accurate timeline on when it will be delivered. Asking anything else is just wasting your time.
At this point, I guess that's the plan. I suppose "best deal" depends on the circumstances. For example, if I need it factory ordered, then I want the best deal I can get for a factory ordered vehicle, even if it more expensive than a similar vehicle on the lot.

But there are people in here suggesting that the difference between factory order and something on the lot may not be that great, so maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
drhkulkarni
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by drhkulkarni »

rockstar wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:45 pm Are you looking to buy now?

If I was a dealer, I'd jack up the prices. Lots of people got stimulus, and I'd like a piece of it. And they're also getting tax refunds too. Lots of money slushing around right now.

How do you plan to negotiate when lots of people just got a windfall?
In my mind, this is a major issue currently.
squirm
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by squirm »

Personally I wouldn't want to special order, imo it's too expensive and not worth it. Every car I've owned has been off the lot. I'm not picky either and will wait until October when the end of model year discounts take place. I don't see what the big deal of going to a few dealers doing test drive, take your time and negotiate with them is.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Well, wheels are in motion. Offers coming in.

What do we think of a something where they say something like $X less any rebates that are available at the time of delivery.

Is "rebates available at the time of delivery" something that is unambiguous and transparent. If I just go the Chrysler website, I should be able to find those out and there shouldn't be any disagreement on whether those exist, right?
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 am Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
I do not know about rebates.
If you haven't had any luck going local, consider extending out further. Maybe even call Chrysler's corporate headquarters and ask if your specific choice is available?
James Bragg is a great buying coach...but his cost is $50 per vehicle. He'll send you a ton of information on your choice and once you buy, you can call him. I've called him several times and he's good. He might be able to answer your question? He uses his version of the Denovo method. He's been doing the car buying thing for years...every day. He has a great feel for the market. I felt like I got my money back in services/advice. Browsing through his fighting chance website is useful.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

hudson wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:59 am
asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 am Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
I do not know about rebates.
If you haven't had any luck going local, consider extending out further. Maybe even call Chrysler's corporate headquarters and ask if your specific choice is available?
James Bragg is a great buying coach...but his cost is $50 per vehicle. He'll send you a ton of information on your choice and once you buy, you can call him. I've called him several times and he's good. He might be able to answer your question? He uses his version of the Denovo method. He's been doing the car buying thing for years...every day. He has a great feel for the market. I felt like I got my money back in services/advice. Browsing through his fighting chance website is useful.
Maybe next time I'll use this Bragg fellow. But I think I've already done enough work that he wouldn't be a value add or time saver at this point.

I am getting offers now for factory orders (no one has it), but my main concern is the "future rebate".

For example if one guy says we will order it and sell it to you at Invoice less any rebate that is available at the time of delivery, I just want to be sure that

1. It will be easy for me to determine what rebates exist at that time
2. There will be no disagreements about what rebates actually exist
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

It's 2021. Very few dealers are going to play a fruitless bidding game over email.

Relatively speaking there is no inventory, and no one is hungry for business. People are paying over MSRP for Kias right now, which is truly a sign of the apocalypse.

Some dealers get 1,000 or more internet leads a month. Imagine how long it would take to put together "bids" for every inquiry, which they know you're just going to shop around anyway, and there is a 99% chance you'll go somewhere else to save nine cents.
Last edited by Trism on Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:13 am
hudson wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:59 am
asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 am Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
I do not know about rebates.
If you haven't had any luck going local, consider extending out further. Maybe even call Chrysler's corporate headquarters and ask if your specific choice is available?
James Bragg is a great buying coach...but his cost is $50 per vehicle. He'll send you a ton of information on your choice and once you buy, you can call him. I've called him several times and he's good. He might be able to answer your question? He uses his version of the Denovo method. He's been doing the car buying thing for years...every day. He has a great feel for the market. I felt like I got my money back in services/advice. Browsing through his fighting chance website is useful.
Maybe next time I'll use this Bragg fellow. But I think I've already done enough work that he wouldn't be a value add or time saver at this point.

I am getting offers now for factory orders (no one has it), but my main concern is the "future rebate".

For example if one guy says we will order it and sell it to you at Invoice less any rebate that is available at the time of delivery, I just want to be sure that

1. It will be easy for me to determine what rebates exist at that time
2. There will be no disagreements about what rebates actually exist
Somebody probably knows about future rebates...probably somebody at a dealership or some kind of Chrysler district or corporate person. Maybe try to talk to the overall manager or the owner of the dealership?
Are you talking to anyone at the dealerships or are you all electronic?
Several times, I have run into sales people that were eager to earn my business. They listened hard to what I had to say, and they found a way to deliver. I could tell right away from talking to these folks that they weren't tied down by the dealership. They knew about the rebates. They would find and deliver a car from another dealership hundreds of miles away. They knew financing rules AND work-arounds. If it was in their power, they would go all out. You never know who these folks are unless you call them or sometimes even walk into a dealership....not to buy but to just talk. Sometimes, the personal touch will work magic.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:22 pm It's 2021. Very few dealers are going to play a fruitless bidding game over email.

Relatively speaking there is no inventory, and no one is hungry for business. People are paying over MSRP for Kias right now, which is truly a sign of the apocalypse.

Some dealers get 1,000 or more internet leads a month. Imagine how long it would take to put together "bids" for every inquiry, which they know you're just going to shop around anyway, and there is a 99% chance you'll go somewhere else to save nine cents.
I hear minivans are historically unpopular. Maybe that's helping. I cast a wide net and I've got multiple quotes via email. The best ones are all within a few hundreds bucks, so the tiebreaker may be how far I've got to drive to pick this thing up.
tibbitts
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tibbitts »

asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 am Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
I don't think historical data would be of any value. I don't have any inside information but suspect that even if you order, your order might be cancelled due to it being so late in the year and parts availability being limited.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:54 pm
asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 am Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
I don't think historical data would be of any value. I don't have any inside information but suspect that even if you order, your order might be cancelled due to it being so late in the year and parts availability being limited.
Can you explain the "being so late in the year"? It's only March? When did late in the model year start?
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:17 pm
Trism wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:22 pm It's 2021. Very few dealers are going to play a fruitless bidding game over email.

Relatively speaking there is no inventory, and no one is hungry for business. People are paying over MSRP for Kias right now, which is truly a sign of the apocalypse.

Some dealers get 1,000 or more internet leads a month. Imagine how long it would take to put together "bids" for every inquiry, which they know you're just going to shop around anyway, and there is a 99% chance you'll go somewhere else to save nine cents.
I hear minivans are historically unpopular. Maybe that's helping. I cast a wide net and I've got multiple quotes via email. The best ones are all within a few hundreds bucks, so the tiebreaker may be how far I've got to drive to pick this thing up.
I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't get quotes back. Of course you will, they're asking for leads on their web site and collecting contact information.

I was suggesting that the "email every dealer within X miles" strategy isn't typically very effective at getting the best possible deal.

Dealers have canned quotes ("internet prices") for vehicles in stock (usually one or two per model/trim combo) that they send to every one that asks.

50 people can ask for a quote on the same car. The person who asked 9 other dealers is going to get the same "internet price" as the person who only emailed that one dealer.

So you're comparing a bunch of canned quotes. Sure, picking the lowest one is obviously better than not, but this is by no means a way of knowing you're getting the best deal possible. That takes actual research.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

Trism wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:46 am That takes actual research.
Trism,
How do you go about buying a new car?
If possible, share your thoughts about research or actions that work for you.
Many thanks!

How do I go about it?
In a nutshell, visit dealers, talk to sales people, and come up with a specific vehicle. At the end of the month or end of the year, on a Tuesday or Wednesday I'll start talking to sales people by phone. I'll communicate that I'm a serious buyer, buying in say 2 days, and I'd like an out the door quote. I'll call back those who gave me OTD quotes and tell them my lowest quote. They know what to do. I only go 2-3 rounds of calls; then I commit. I share my real phone number and email information.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

squirm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:03 pm Personally I wouldn't want to special order, imo it's too expensive and not worth it. Every car I've owned has been off the lot. I'm not picky either and will wait until October when the end of model year discounts take place. I don't see what the big deal of going to a few dealers doing test drive, take your time and negotiate with them is.
Ordering is not more expensive. I've mentioned my Jeep. The closest I found was in a color I didn't like and missing the limited slip differential. It was $500 more than I paid, ordering what I wanted with the color I wanted ($0 option) and with the limited slip ($300).

My son ordered a Subaru STi base in World Rally Blue with no options. He was given a price $1200 under invoice. The doc fee that makes up profit for the dealer was $400.

For the OP, wanting a wacky color combination that no dealer is going to get for stock, an order is absolutely the way to go. I'd expect that they might require a higher than normal deposit that is non-refundable because they're never going to get rid of that thing if the OP doesn't take it.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

hudson wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:40 am
Trism wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:46 am That takes actual research.
Trism,
How do you go about buying a new car?
If possible, share your thoughts about research or actions that work for you.
Many thanks!

How do I go about it?
In a nutshell, visit dealers, talk to sales people, and come up with a specific vehicle. At the end of the month or end of the year, on a Tuesday or Wednesday I'll start talking to sales people by phone. I'll communicate that I'm a serious buyer, buying in say 2 days, and I'd like an out the door quote. I'll call back those who gave me OTD quotes and tell them my lowest quote. They know what to do. I only go 2-3 rounds of calls; then I commit. I share my real phone number and email information.
I'm going to paint with a pretty broad brush, because there are some exceptions based on brand variability that make it impossible to cover every scenario in one post. In general:

There are really only two main variables: Dealer discount and manufacturer incentives, and the only one the dealer controls is the first one. Many "quotes" bundle both of these together, which makes it hard to dissect. If a car has $12,000 in incentives and you get a quote showing a $10,000 "discount" with no itemization, you'd essentially be paying a $2,000 premium over MSRP for that car.

Step 1 is to research the approximate dealer discount that people are paying for the same make/model (and trim if possible). Since MSRP varies greatly depending on options, I'm looking for the percent off MSRP to use as a guideline.

It can be tedious to gather data points, but you'll find info in auto forums that specialize in a particular brand or model, and on sites like Leasehackr (even if you don't lease, the principle of finding % off MSRP is the same for a lease, finance or cash transaction). Obviously the more data points the better.

Manufacturer discounts are next. These vary by model and sometimes by trim, and with most manufacturers they also vary by region (typically the region is based on the dealer's location, not your registration address, although a few brands work the other way).

There are several ways to research incentives, including going to the manufacturer's web site and checking for rebates, incentives, etc. in various zip codes - including those a couple of states away.

When I leased my 750i, the incentives in my market (Columbus, Ohio) were much lower than they were in the DC metro area, and the difference was thousands of dollars. So I made the deal over the phone, redeemed some frequent flyer miles, flew in, and drove the car ~400 miles home.

For the same car in my home market I was looking at lease payments in the $1,100-1,200 range, but by going out of market I ended up with the same car in the mid $800s.

Model your target deal and start making offers. You're in a weaker negotiating position if you start the conversation by asking the dealer how much they want you to pay.

If you make an offer that isn't accepted, and you get a counter-offer:

Note that doc fees can vary dramatically from market to market, so make sure you are factoring that in when comparing offers.

If there are pre-installed accessories that a dealer is unwilling to remove, simply subtract the amount they're charging from the dealer discount.

... And, regardless of where you end up with everything else, assume that everything offered to you in the finance office is a flaming bag of giraffe diarrhea unless you can show definitively otherwise.
Last edited by Trism on Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

Thanks Trism!
So, research, shop around, and negotiate!
lazydavid
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by lazydavid »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 1:31 pm 1. One way I could relax my requirements is accept any color and get it painted. Anyone have any experience with that. It would eat into any savings, but if I'm going to get a worse deal on a factory order, maybe I can consider it.
Expect a near-factory-quality paint job to cost at least $8,000. I would never even consider it on a new car. If you truly want to change the color of a vehicle these days, you do a vinyl wrap. A well-done one looks amazingly good, and also protects the factory paint to help with resale. Expect a solid job to cost $3-4,000.

Either way, I don't think any savings you'd get by accepting a color that is undesirable to you would make one of the above options worthwhile. The ideal situation would be if you specifically wanted a color that the factory does not offer (so you're committed to a re-color no matter what), and then could seek out some extremely undesirable color that has been sitting unsold for a year.
Topic Author
asdfgf
Posts: 128
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:46 am
asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:17 pm
Trism wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:22 pm It's 2021. Very few dealers are going to play a fruitless bidding game over email.

Relatively speaking there is no inventory, and no one is hungry for business. People are paying over MSRP for Kias right now, which is truly a sign of the apocalypse.

Some dealers get 1,000 or more internet leads a month. Imagine how long it would take to put together "bids" for every inquiry, which they know you're just going to shop around anyway, and there is a 99% chance you'll go somewhere else to save nine cents.
I hear minivans are historically unpopular. Maybe that's helping. I cast a wide net and I've got multiple quotes via email. The best ones are all within a few hundreds bucks, so the tiebreaker may be how far I've got to drive to pick this thing up.
I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't get quotes back. Of course you will, they're asking for leads on their web site and collecting contact information.

I was suggesting that the "email every dealer within X miles" strategy isn't typically very effective at getting the best possible deal.

Dealers have canned quotes ("internet prices") for vehicles in stock (usually one or two per model/trim combo) that they send to every one that asks.

50 people can ask for a quote on the same car. The person who asked 9 other dealers is going to get the same "internet price" as the person who only emailed that one dealer.

So you're comparing a bunch of canned quotes. Sure, picking the lowest one is obviously better than not, but this is by no means a way of knowing you're getting the best deal possible. That takes actual research.
How can they be "canned" when the quotes are for a specific vehicle that I will be factory ordering?

I suppose if (invoice - X) is "canned", and they give me a number for that + taxes, etc., then I guess I don't see a problem.
rooms222
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by rooms222 »

The concern about getting your order in quickly is that auto assembly plants usually suspend production to changeover to the new model year, usually sometime in June-September. With COVID-19 this may happen at an unusual time or be cancelled altogether. https://carbuzz.com/news/summer-vacatio ... -factories

Ideally you need the order in in the next month or so, as they will stop taking custom orders at some point before that, as they have to schedule parts purchases and schedule the assembly.


I have noticed Maryland/DC has lower pricing on a lot of cars (or at least the prices are more readily attainable). I would try to get a quote from a dealer there as well.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:23 am
Trism wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:46 am
asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:17 pm
Trism wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:22 pm It's 2021. Very few dealers are going to play a fruitless bidding game over email.

Relatively speaking there is no inventory, and no one is hungry for business. People are paying over MSRP for Kias right now, which is truly a sign of the apocalypse.

Some dealers get 1,000 or more internet leads a month. Imagine how long it would take to put together "bids" for every inquiry, which they know you're just going to shop around anyway, and there is a 99% chance you'll go somewhere else to save nine cents.
I hear minivans are historically unpopular. Maybe that's helping. I cast a wide net and I've got multiple quotes via email. The best ones are all within a few hundreds bucks, so the tiebreaker may be how far I've got to drive to pick this thing up.
I wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't get quotes back. Of course you will, they're asking for leads on their web site and collecting contact information.

I was suggesting that the "email every dealer within X miles" strategy isn't typically very effective at getting the best possible deal.

Dealers have canned quotes ("internet prices") for vehicles in stock (usually one or two per model/trim combo) that they send to every one that asks.

50 people can ask for a quote on the same car. The person who asked 9 other dealers is going to get the same "internet price" as the person who only emailed that one dealer.

So you're comparing a bunch of canned quotes. Sure, picking the lowest one is obviously better than not, but this is by no means a way of knowing you're getting the best deal possible. That takes actual research.
How can they be "canned" when the quotes are for a specific vehicle that I will be factory ordering?

I suppose if (invoice - X) is "canned", and they give me a number for that + taxes, etc., then I guess I don't see a problem.
The car you want to order is unique to you, but it isn't do the dealer. It's just Brand A, Model B, Trim C with an MSRP that's comparable to a dozen or more other cars on the lot.

Invoice is a meaningless number (it doesn't represent the dealer's cost), and Invoice minus X is even more meaningless when you don't know how much of X is dealer discounts, and how much is factory incentives.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

hudson wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:17 am Thanks Trism!
So, research, shop around, and negotiate!
Exactly, and don't go shopping until you know objectively what a good deal is. Happy hunting!
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:39 am
Invoice is a meaningless number (it doesn't represent the dealer's cost), and Invoice minus X is even more meaningless when you don't know how much of X is dealer discounts, and how much is factory incentives.
I definitely know the factory incentives. Also there are sites that tell you what deals others have gotten, so I have an idea of what a good deal is. All of that research was done before sending the first email.

The only thing I don't know is how much the dealer holdback is. I also don't know how to find that out. I asked for tips in my last thread on this issue, but didn't get any leads that panned out. Also everyone told me not to worry about it.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:52 am
Trism wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:39 am
Invoice is a meaningless number (it doesn't represent the dealer's cost), and Invoice minus X is even more meaningless when you don't know how much of X is dealer discounts, and how much is factory incentives.
I definitely know the factory incentives. Also there are sites that tell you what deals others have gotten, so I have an idea of what a good deal is. All of that research was done before sending the first email.

The only thing I don't know is how much the dealer holdback is. I also don't know how to find that out. I asked for tips in my last thread on this issue, but didn't get any leads that panned out. Also everyone told me not to worry about it.
Holdback is a generally a percentage of invoice, but, again, invoice is meaningless.

Your goal is to buy at the low end of what the market is doing, which has nothing to do with a fake number on an invoice, or holdback, which is a percentage of that fake number.
tibbitts
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tibbitts »

asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:41 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:54 pm
asdfgf wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:48 am Also, does anyone know of any good resources of historical rebate data so I that I might attempt to predict what rebates will look like in 2-3 months.
I don't think historical data would be of any value. I don't have any inside information but suspect that even if you order, your order might be cancelled due to it being so late in the year and parts availability being limited.
Can you explain the "being so late in the year"? It's only March? When did late in the model year start?
Every model is different, even more so with so many factories impacted by the pandemic. For one 2020 model I had been considering last year, production ended in February, 2020.
inbox788
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by inbox788 »

squirm wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:03 pm Personally I wouldn't want to special order, imo it's too expensive and not worth it. Every car I've owned has been off the lot. I'm not picky either and will wait until October when the end of model year discounts take place. I don't see what the big deal of going to a few dealers doing test drive, take your time and negotiate with them is.
Model years have been advanced 6-12 months, so they're occurring year around now. Some models are ready to introduce 2022. There's probably still a small year end effect Dec. 31, but not as big as it used to be. Anyway, for some cars 2021 year end is already here.

https://www.carsdirect.com/deals-articl ... go-on-sale
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
If you are shopping 10 dealers and getting them to bid against each other iit should have taken longer than this.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
pb1996
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by pb1996 »

denovo wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:12 pm
asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
If you are shopping 10 dealers and getting them to bid against each other iit should have taken longer than this.
Apologies if I am partially hijacking this thread...

How long should one expect the denovo/Bragg process to take (in terms of hours per day and total days)? For example, I will likely buy a car within the next 2 weeks (after test drives tomorrow). I have the days off to negotiate on March 22, 29,30,31. Should I plan on starting it March 22nd and finishing it the last days of the month or can it easily be started on March 29 or 30th and be finished by 31st for best chance at desperate dealers?

Thanks.

PB
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by UpperNwGuy »

rooms222 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:37 am I have noticed Maryland/DC has lower pricing on a lot of cars (or at least the prices are more readily attainable). I would try to get a quote from a dealer there as well.
Just Maryland. DC no longer has any new car dealerships.
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

pb1996 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:21 pm
denovo wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:12 pm
asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
If you are shopping 10 dealers and getting them to bid against each other iit should have taken longer than this.
Apologies if I am partially hijacking this thread...

How long should one expect the denovo/Bragg process to take (in terms of hours per day and total days)? For example, I will likely buy a car within the next 2 weeks (after test drives tomorrow). I have the days off to negotiate on March 22, 29,30,31. Should I plan on starting it March 22nd and finishing it the last days of the month or can it easily be started on March 29 or 30th and be finished by 31st for best chance at desperate dealers?

Thanks.

PB
You don't need to talk time off for this, just check your e-mail 5-6 times a day and use an excel sheet to track. I would guess this would take about 3-5 days on average, but total time in those days total no more than 2 hours.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:12 pm
asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.

If you are shopping 10 dealers and getting them to bid against each other iit should have taken longer than this.
I haven't gotten to the bid against each other yet. The three best bids are within $300. So I have a pretty good idea of where I'll end up.
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