Need Help Buying Car, part 2

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Trism
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:34 pm

Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
The first three hits on CarGurus on a nationwide search for a new Pacifica shows selling prices at $9,000-11,000 under MSRP on vehicles < $40,000.

These offers undoubtedly have both dealer discounts and mfr incentives jumbled together, but unless the MRSP on the one you are considering is $65,000, you might want to stop and try to figure out how these deals were constructed.

Image
tibbitts
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tibbitts »

pb1996 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:21 pm I have the days off to negotiate on March 22, 29,30,31.
I assume you mean those are days you don't normally work - almost nobody would actually take days off, as in personal leave or vacation, to negotiate for a car.
tibbitts
Posts: 23717
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tibbitts »

asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
It might help if you would specify some of the trim levels/options you are requiring, and what you consider "extra stuff."
Topic Author
asdfgf
Posts: 128
Joined: Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:51 am
asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
The first three hits on CarGurus on a nationwide search for a new Pacifica shows selling prices at $9,000-11,000 under MSRP on vehicles < $40,000.

These offers undoubtedly have both dealer discounts and mfr incentives jumbled together, but unless the MRSP on the one you are considering is $65,000, you might want to stop and try to figure out how these deals were constructed.

Image
The prices I gave include taxes and fees (i.e. out the door price). The one on the lot is going for about 8K less than MSRP. The ones I'm ordering are only about 1500 less than MSRP without rebates. If rebates are the same in the future as they are now, then they would drop to 6K below MSRP.

But given this info I guess I'll push harder.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

tibbitts wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:46 am
asdfgf wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 pm At this point my best options are get one off the lot that has everything I want but a lot of extra stuff I don't really want (but is nice) for 49K.

Or order the exact car I want for 48K less any rebates available at the time of deliver. Current rebates are $4500.

If the rebates at time of delivery are $4500, then I'd much prefer the exact car I want.

If the rebates at the time of deliver are zero, then I'd prefer the 49K car because the extra stuff is more than 1 K value to me (it's about 4K worth of extra options).

Having a tough time deciding because of the uncertainty of the future rebates.
It might help if you would specify some of the trim levels/options you are requiring, and what you consider "extra stuff."
The extra stuff I don't need, but seems to always be on the vehicles that I'm looking at are the entertainment package, panoramic sunroof, and 20" wheels.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

I just had one offer come in about 2K lower than all the rest. I'm almost sure they made a mistake (i.e., I think that they may have used the wrong specs when making the bid). I emailed them back asking them to confirm and I basically got a two line email saying that the price they gave is correct. But I didn't get the feeling that they really checked.

I guess if I start the ordering process, the error will reveal itself and that will be the end of it.

Anyone have any advice?
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

asdfgf wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:55 am I just had one offer come in about 2K lower than all the rest. I'm almost sure they made a mistake (i.e., I think that they may have used the wrong specs when making the bid). I emailed them back asking them to confirm and I basically got a two line email saying that the price they gave is correct. But I didn't get the feeling that they really checked.

I guess if I start the ordering process, the error will reveal itself and that will be the end of it.

Anyone have any advice?
I've seen quotes $2k down on almost every vehicle once negotiations get serious. I don't ask for serious paperwork until I have the final bidder and I'm making a commitment. Then I'll ask for some kind of "official" document. I've heard it called a sales order. I usually receive it by email or text.
What days to get serious....the Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday at the end of March. Those days aren't crazy busy. When I'm negotiating, I use the phone. I try to talk to the sales or internet manager, but I'm happy with who they give me. I get their contact info and the same for a backup in case they are off those days. I give out my real number and real email.
I like the phone, because I can quickly establish that I'm real and a serious buyer. I establish trust. I get instant feedback. Most dealers can get my OTD quote back lightning fast. I don't get into endless conversations. I don't really tell the sales person what my plan is except that I'm serious and can be trusted....and that I'm buying say today or tomorrow. If the salesperson wants proof of my lowest quote or the name of the dealer who gave me the lowest quote, I politely decline. Any dealers that won't give a bid or who don't trust me are kindly and politely dropped.
In my experience, one price dealers won't deal. In my area the largest dealers want to talk endlessly but won't drop their bid a nickel. The smaller dealerships are the sweet spot...but you never know until you call.
I don't negotiate on anything but the OTD price. I don't care what they include in it.

EDIT: If asked what price I would pay, I humbly and politely decline. I always let the seller name the price.

And when I get ready to quit, I call the finalists and tell them that I'm going to make a final decision in 4 hours...say at 3 PM. At 3 PM I call the lowest OTD price dealer and ask for the sales order...if it looks good, I'll put down a deposit.
Last edited by hudson on Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

It would help a lot if you'd break down your deal like this (fictional numbers, obviously):

$50,000 MSRP
- 4,500 dealer discount
- 8,000 incentives (itemize these)*
+ 500 doc fee (this is all gross profit)
$38,000 sale price

Go to Autobytel and enter your zip code and choose the trim level you're looking for. It will list the manufacturer incentives.

While you're there, look at the incentives for other trims -- sometimes the variation is dramatic, and you can save thousands of extra dollars by foregoing an option you otherwise thought was essential (or the opposite, often you can move to a higher trim with more features for less money because the incentives are higher).

Image

* FCA incentives are harder to digest than most other brands. You will not qualify for everything listed, as some of them have conditions, but there are clearly thousands of dollars available.

Do these "bids" you are receiving itemize the incentives that are included? If no, you are shooting in the dark. Insist on a breakdown. That's the only way you'll know if you are getting ANY discount from the dealer (or WORSE, if they are "discounting" the car by less than the sum of the incentives).

Taxes and government fees are a red herring until the very end, because you can't negotiate those.

You're trying to lump everything together as one "out the door number," which is the second worst way to determine if you're getting a great deal.

The very worst way is to shop by monthly payment. :)
CVGCPA
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by CVGCPA »

I purchased a new Pacifica Hybrid last month. For what we wanted, there were 8 cars on dealer lots within 250 miles so I contacted all 8 dealers. Every single one was willing to deliver the car to our house either for free or for a nominal fee (<$100). If you go to the Chrysler site, you can search all inventory nationwide. I actually prefer the out of town dealers because they don't waste your time with the "come on in and we'll talk" speech.

Each dealer quoted me a base price which was MSRP less a dealer discount, less FCA rebates, less financing discounts. For the FCA rebates, every dealer had the same number and it was based on my personal eligibility. In terms of financing, my options were $0 discount if I paid in cash, $0 discount if I took Chrysler's 0% financing, $1500 if I took Chrysler's 4% financing, or $250-$500 if I used the dealer's local bank. I took the 4% Chrysler financing and have already paid off the loan.

The best price I received was:

MSRP - $3,279 dealer discount - $5,000 FCA rebate - $1,500 Chrysler Capital rebate = $9,779 below MSRP

And then add taxes, title, fees, and any other extras you add on.

I'm not a big email person, so this took a few round of calls with each dealer. I think I started on a Friday and settled on a deal by Wednesday. I ended up buying from a dealer about 150 miles away, so did all the paperwork electronically and they brought the car on a truck within 48 hours.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

CVGCPA wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:42 am I purchased a new Pacifica Hybrid last month. For what we wanted, there were 8 cars on dealer lots within 250 miles so I contacted all 8 dealers. Every single one was willing to deliver the car to our house either for free or for a nominal fee (<$100). If you go to the Chrysler site, you can search all inventory nationwide. I actually prefer the out of town dealers because they don't waste your time with the "come on in and we'll talk" speech.

Each dealer quoted me a base price which was MSRP less a dealer discount, less FCA rebates, less financing discounts. For the FCA rebates, every dealer had the same number and it was based on my personal eligibility. In terms of financing, my options were $0 discount if I paid in cash, $0 discount if I took Chrysler's 0% financing, $1500 if I took Chrysler's 4% financing, or $250-$500 if I used the dealer's local bank. I took the 4% Chrysler financing and have already paid off the loan.

The best price I received was:

MSRP - $3,279 dealer discount - $5,000 FCA rebate - $1,500 Chrysler Capital rebate = $9,779 below MSRP

And then add taxes, title, fees, and any other extras you add on.

I'm not a big email person, so this took a few round of calls with each dealer. I think I started on a Friday and settled on a deal by Wednesday. I ended up buying from a dealer about 150 miles away, so did all the paperwork electronically and they brought the car on a truck within 48 hours.
Nice.

Good tip on taking the loan in exchange for the incentive. I did that recently as well.

Enjoy the van.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:24 am

Do these "bids" you are receiving itemize the incentives that are included?
No, but as I explained, all the bids I'm receiving are for a custom ordered vehicle (except for one, which I didn't ask for, but they just sent it to me to see if I'd consider a vehicle they had that was close). So all of them give me a bid of that has no incentives and they say that they will apply all available rebates at the time of delivery.

Some are itemized, some aren't. But all of them are give an out the door price with the stipulation that they will apply any rebates that are available at the time of delivery.
BatBuckeye
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by BatBuckeye »

Op, just checking, are the dealers local or close to you? Do the dealers have decent reviews? I was car shopping and read reviews stating that people traveled quite a distance, then on arrival the dealer said vehicle was no longer available. I don't totally rely on Internet reviews though.
Enjoy your new vehicle. I miss my van when I need to get a sheet of plywood.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

BatBuckeye wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:09 pm Op, just checking, are the dealers local or close to you? Do the dealers have decent reviews? I was car shopping and read reviews stating that people traveled quite a distance, then on arrival the dealer said vehicle was no longer available. I don't totally rely on Internet reviews though.
Enjoy your new vehicle. I miss my van when I need to get a sheet of plywood.
I'm not sure that will be a problem in my case, since I'm custom ordering it.

All are within a 90 min drive.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

asdfgf wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:29 pm
Trism wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:24 am

Do these "bids" you are receiving itemize the incentives that are included?
No, but as I explained, all the bids I'm receiving are for a custom ordered vehicle (except for one, which I didn't ask for, but they just sent it to me to see if I'd consider a vehicle they had that was close). So all of them give me a bid of that has no incentives and they say that they will apply all available rebates at the time of delivery.

Some are itemized, some aren't. But all of them are give an out the door price with the stipulation that they will apply any rebates that are available at the time of delivery.
Got it. I truly hope I haven't been coming across as argumentative. Somewhere I got lost with how you were ordering a car but somehow have "out the door" prices for future delivery at a time when the rebates/incentives aren't yet known. That's probably on me.

Regardless, my heart is in the right place here. My grandfather and father owned new car dealerships until just a few years ago, and I've worked tangentially in the industry (auto credit technology and auto marketing -- I've written copy for hundreds of dealer ads designed to lure you in to the showroom with the prospect of low monthly payments or other dubious claims that were eventually clarified in 6 point font).

I hope some of what I've posted has been useful. The "email every dealer and make them bid against each other" technique is an outmoded holdover from years ago, before consumers had ready access to as much info as they have now (if they're willing/able to search), and when dealers were petrified that the internet was an existential threat.

Really, the last way you want to approach this in 2021 is emailing a bunch of dealers and asking them to make you offers that are as opaque as possible.

Best wishes on your search. I won't clutter your thread with further comments unless feedback is specifically requested. Sometimes my passion gets ahead of me. :)
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

Trism wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:09 am

I hope some of what I've posted has been useful. The "email every dealer and make them bid against each other" technique is an outmoded holdover from years ago, before consumers had ready access to as much info as they have now (if they're willing/able to search), and when dealers were petrified that the internet was an existential threat.

Really, the last way you want to approach this in 2021 is emailing a bunch of dealers and asking them to make you offers that are as opaque as possible.

Except multiple on this site and others have used the method of e-mailing dealers to get rock-bottom prices. There's nothing opaque but OTD, it's the most important and relevant price.

viewtopic.php?p=5892110#p5892110

viewtopic.php?t=124638

It's also endorsed here.

https://fightingchance.com/
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:55 am I just had one offer come in about 2K lower than all the rest. I'm almost sure they made a mistake (i.e., I think that they may have used the wrong specs when making the bid). I emailed them back asking them to confirm and I basically got a two line email saying that the price they gave is correct. But I didn't get the feeling that they really checked.

I guess if I start the ordering process, the error will reveal itself and that will be the end of it.

Anyone have any advice?
You need to ask them if they are going to share any of the manufac. to dealer rebates as opposed to the manufacturer to buyer rebates.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:09 am
asdfgf wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:29 pm
Trism wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:24 am

Do these "bids" you are receiving itemize the incentives that are included?
No, but as I explained, all the bids I'm receiving are for a custom ordered vehicle (except for one, which I didn't ask for, but they just sent it to me to see if I'd consider a vehicle they had that was close). So all of them give me a bid of that has no incentives and they say that they will apply all available rebates at the time of delivery.

Some are itemized, some aren't. But all of them are give an out the door price with the stipulation that they will apply any rebates that are available at the time of delivery.
Got it. I truly hope I haven't been coming across as argumentative. Somewhere I got lost with how you were ordering a car but somehow have "out the door" prices for future delivery at a time when the rebates/incentives aren't yet known. That's probably on me.
I mentioned this on page one. It's one thing I'm a bit worried about. All these quotes are X minus any "rebates available at the time of delivery". I worry that I'll get screwed on that somehow. And I don't mean because the rebates go away (that would be me being unlucky rather than the dealer screwing me). I mean that the dealer might claim that something is not "technically" a rebate and then not apply it.

Your comments are definitely appreciated and I encourage you to post any thoughts you have in this thread.

I'm of the denovo mindset and I believe negotiating for an otd price exclusively by email is the way to go. However, it's good to hear and consider opposing viewpoints.
Last edited by asdfgf on Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:35 pm
asdfgf wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:55 am I just had one offer come in about 2K lower than all the rest. I'm almost sure they made a mistake (i.e., I think that they may have used the wrong specs when making the bid). I emailed them back asking them to confirm and I basically got a two line email saying that the price they gave is correct. But I didn't get the feeling that they really checked.

I guess if I start the ordering process, the error will reveal itself and that will be the end of it.

Anyone have any advice?
You need to ask them if they are going to share any of the manufac. to dealer rebates as opposed to the manufacturer to buyer rebates.
Yeah, the way I attempted to ask this was by saying something like "Ok, just to make sure we are talking about the same rebates, if I were taking delivery today, please tell me which rebates you would apply and the amount associated with each". In all cases, they only mention the manufacturer to buyer rebates.

I'm at the point where I'm just playing the bids against each other. I took best bid and told worst bid they need to beat it by $300.

FWIW, the 2K underbid has ghosted me since I expressed interest. I'm pretty sure they made a mistake as the MSRP on their offer sheet was incorrect. Interestingy, the 2K underbid not that far under what Edmunds considers a great deal. So, I'm going to shoot for as close to that as I can get.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

denovo wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:33 pm
Trism wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:09 am

I hope some of what I've posted has been useful. The "email every dealer and make them bid against each other" technique is an outmoded holdover from years ago, before consumers had ready access to as much info as they have now (if they're willing/able to search), and when dealers were petrified that the internet was an existential threat.

Really, the last way you want to approach this in 2021 is emailing a bunch of dealers and asking them to make you offers that are as opaque as possible.

Except multiple on this site and others have used the method of e-mailing dealers to get rock-bottom prices. There's nothing opaque but OTD, it's the most important and relevant price.

viewtopic.php?p=5892110#p5892110

viewtopic.php?t=124638

It's also endorsed here.

https://fightingchance.com/
Respectfully, I get value from this forum on a variety of topics, but car advice isn't one of them.

Picking the lowest price from 10 canned offers isn't the same thing as getting a "rock bottom" price.

I just looked at the "Fighting Guy" site. The purpose of that site is obviously to sell a $49.95 "Fighting Chance Package" after overwhelming unsophisticated consumers with a barrage of statistics to make the whole process look more complicated than it is.

Image

BUT WAIT!!! If you order in the next 15 minutes we'll throw in a fresh dragon egg and a 500 ml bottle of snake oil!!! (Just pay Shipping & Handling)
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asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Trism wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:13 am

Respectfully, I get value from this forum on a variety of topics, but car advice isn't one of them.

Picking the lowest price from 10 canned offers isn't the same thing as getting a "rock bottom" price.

Well, once you get the offers, then you play the bids against each other.

There are numerous sources that advocate for this exact approach. It seems very unlikely that they are all wrong.

I'm not saying it's the only way, but I don't know why you think it can't work.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

So here's my situation. Bidding war in progress for the vehicle I'm ordering. As an aside, this actually works a lot better when I have time to answer emails during the day. I never have time at work so I was only getting to them once a day in the evening. But today I'm off and I can get in several rounds back and forth. I've just spent the whole morning negotiating this thing down.

Most of the offers are in the form of $X - whatever rebates are available at the time of delivery.

But one dealer says they will lock in a price of $X - current rebates. For this offer, $X is only $250 worse than the best $X from the other kind of offer, but the rebates are guaranteed. Here are a couple of things that I'm thinking of.

1. If this dealer is doing this, I think he may know that rebates are likely going to be present and may go up, so maybe I should take one of the other deals.

2. I am a little worried about some sort of bait and switching and the rebates no being applied in the future. Any advice other than just carefully reading the fine print.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

asdfgf wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:55 am I just had one offer come in about 2K lower than all the rest. I'm almost sure they made a mistake (i.e., I think that they may have used the wrong specs when making the bid). I emailed them back asking them to confirm and I basically got a two line email saying that the price they gave is correct. But I didn't get the feeling that they really checked.

I guess if I start the ordering process, the error will reveal itself and that will be the end of it.

Anyone have any advice?
Update on this for anyone who cares. I actually decided to pick up the phone and call them to figure this out. They made a mistake. They gave me a price on the FWD instead of the AWD.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

Good job asdfgf!
Let your fingers do the walking!
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

hudson wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:03 pm Good job asdfgf!
Let your fingers do the walking!
I think I'm getting close to the end. I'm getting to the point where everyone is bowing out and telling me to just take the deal I've got.

Basically my only decision is to pay a $250 premium to lock in $4500 of rebate.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:01 pm
hudson wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:03 pm Good job asdfgf!
Let your fingers do the walking!
I think I'm getting close to the end. I'm getting to the point where everyone is bowing out and telling me to just take the deal I've got.

Basically my only decision is to pay a $250 premium to lock in $4500 of rebate.
When I get down to the end, I notify the finalists that I'm going to make a final decision in say 3 hours. Then I decide and put down a deposit.
I've had lower bids after putting down a deposit; once I commit, I don't back out. Then I'll notify the losing finalists that I've bought a vehicle and that I appreciate their help.
Before I make the deposit, I request a written description of the deal so that both sides know exactly what the deal is.
hi_there
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hi_there »

I'm curious if anyone here prefers to use Carvana or other kinds of no-haggle car buying services, and what you think of the overall buying experience - cost and time inclusive.

The process of bargaining with dealers just sounds like a nightmare. There must be a better long term solution.
hudson
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hudson »

Trism wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:13 am
https://fightingchance.com/
I just looked at the "Fighting Guy" site. The purpose of that site is obviously to sell a $49.95 "Fighting Chance Package" after overwhelming unsophisticated consumers with a barrage of statistics to make the whole process look more complicated than it is.

[/i]
[/quote]

Trism,
I've used James Bragg 4 times over the last 10 years. He delivers a quality product. He's an excellent vehicle buying coach.
You get an email with great information on your vehicle. You get prices that folks are paying nationwide...folks that have bought his package. You get buying strategies...not unlike the Denovo method. You can call him and get coaching. I always got my money's worth.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Yeah, if $50 saves you a couple of hours of research, how is that a bad deal?
tibbitts
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tibbitts »

hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:14 pm I'm curious if anyone here prefers to use Carvana or other kinds of no-haggle car buying services, and what you think of the overall buying experience - cost and time inclusive.

The process of bargaining with dealers just sounds like a nightmare. There must be a better long term solution.
Well, that's sort of like saying can't we just use a total market fund or target fund instead of tilting and rebalancing and placing international for optimal tax treatment. You can just use one fund or a target fund, but it's less theoretically optimal, and less of a hobby if you do. Realistically we read about decisions here every day that can make tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference over a lifetime. Then we have these little things that are more like getting a one-time credit card signup bonus. Probably 90% of the negotiation benefit comes with 10% of the work. But some Bogleheads get a lot of satisfaction over wringing the last dollar out of a situation. It won't matter at all in their long-term financial well-being, but it matters to them for other reasons and makes them happy. It's just important that everybody differentiates what really matters and what doesn't.
hi_there
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by hi_there »

tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:44 pm
hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:14 pm I'm curious if anyone here prefers to use Carvana or other kinds of no-haggle car buying services, and what you think of the overall buying experience - cost and time inclusive.

The process of bargaining with dealers just sounds like a nightmare. There must be a better long term solution.
Well, that's sort of like saying can't we just use a total market fund or target fund instead of tilting and rebalancing and placing international for optimal tax treatment. You can just use one fund or a target fund, but it's less theoretically optimal, and less of a hobby if you do. Realistically we read about decisions here every day that can make tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference over a lifetime. Then we have these little things that are more like getting a one-time credit card signup bonus. Probably 90% of the negotiation benefit comes with 10% of the work. But some Bogleheads get a lot of satisfaction over wringing the last dollar out of a situation. It won't matter at all in their long-term financial well-being, but it matters to them for other reasons and makes them happy. It's just important that everybody differentiates what really matters and what doesn't.
Parallels to investing aside, I think it is safe to say that most Americans dislike the dealer model and do not look forward to this aspect of buying a car. I was therefore enquiring as to the experiences of people who have chosen to bypass a traditional dealer. I'm confident that I stand with a majority of people in that I would prefer not to exchange emails and play mind games with 10 dealers the next time I need a vehicle.
tibbitts
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tibbitts »

hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:20 pm
tibbitts wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:44 pm
hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:14 pm I'm curious if anyone here prefers to use Carvana or other kinds of no-haggle car buying services, and what you think of the overall buying experience - cost and time inclusive.

The process of bargaining with dealers just sounds like a nightmare. There must be a better long term solution.
Well, that's sort of like saying can't we just use a total market fund or target fund instead of tilting and rebalancing and placing international for optimal tax treatment. You can just use one fund or a target fund, but it's less theoretically optimal, and less of a hobby if you do. Realistically we read about decisions here every day that can make tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference over a lifetime. Then we have these little things that are more like getting a one-time credit card signup bonus. Probably 90% of the negotiation benefit comes with 10% of the work. But some Bogleheads get a lot of satisfaction over wringing the last dollar out of a situation. It won't matter at all in their long-term financial well-being, but it matters to them for other reasons and makes them happy. It's just important that everybody differentiates what really matters and what doesn't.
Parallels to investing aside, I think it is safe to say that most Americans dislike the dealer model and do not look forward to this aspect of buying a car. I was therefore enquiring as to the experiences of people who have chosen to bypass a traditional dealer. I'm confident that I stand with a majority of people in that I would prefer not to exchange emails and play mind games with 10 dealers the next time I need a vehicle.
There have always been dealers that don't negotiate so they should count for your purposes too. Having bought from one, you go to the dealer and pay the price they ask - not much of an "experience."
hudson
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Does it pay to shop around?

Post by hudson »

hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:20 pm I'm confident that I stand with a majority of people in that I would prefer not to exchange emails and play mind games with 10 dealers the next time I need a vehicle.
I agree that it's a pain to shop around. What if you could save $4K?

I've shopped around for 5 new vehicles since the year 2000. I usually call around to 5 dealers. My final price averages around $4K lower than a large one-price-dealership's quote.

The largest Toyota dealer in my area is highly advertised; it is huge; cars move on elevators. All employees are very well dressed. Most of the Toyotas that I see on the road have that dealer's name on the license plate holder.

They consistently give me a price that's $4K higher than I can get with a few phone calls. The big dealer does not drop their price. There are dealers 25 miles away that will.

I agree its tempting to walk into a dealership and walk out with a vehicle. From 1969 until 2000, that's the way that I did it. I was only shopping the lowest monthly payment. :)

When I buy my next vehicle, I might not save $4K, but I believe that I'll get the best deal available in my area buy just calling around and asking for an out the door price on a specific vehicle.
It pays to shop around.
I just checked my notes on my last two Toyota buys. I saved $4502 and $5302 on vehicles that cost under $36K.
Trism
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Trism »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:30 pm Yeah, if $50 saves you a couple of hours of research, how is that a bad deal?
Incentives for most manufacturers are regional and can vary dramatically from region to region.

Also, most manufacturers base incentives on the dealer location and not where the vehicle is registered, so in the majority of cases knowing what someone paid for the same vehicle in Nevada has no bearing on whether you're getting a good deal in New Jersey. Or Iowa. Or Texas.

Maybe he covers this in a $79.95 Gold Package. ;)
mr_brightside
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by mr_brightside »

Trism wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:22 pm It's 2021. Very few dealers are going to play a fruitless bidding game over email.
agree

you can try -- but don't be surprised if you email 10 and hear back from 3

they have transitioned the 'run-around' from physically in the store to virtual / web-based

IMO its back to -- know what a good deal is and go to the store and negotiate. walk if they won't give it to you.

yes -- the 'bait and switch' is a thing

----------------------------
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:02 pm So, I'm planning on buying a new vehicle, and my plan is to just email a bunch of dealers and see who will get me the best price out the door. I have done all the research I need to do and I'm now at the email step.

I used this technique over 10 yrs ago to buy a new car, and it worked well, but it seems like things have changed a bit.

I'm looking for some tips on what to put in my general email out to the dealers. Here are some specific questions/issues I'm thinking about.

1. Is there any info I should definitely include in the email? Anything I definitely should not include?

2. When I did it last time, it seems that every dealer website had an email address listed somewhere that I could contact. So far 0/7 of the dealers I have looked at have this info on their site. That seems weird. Am I just missing something here? They do all have some sort of online form I can fill out, so I did that in the hope that they will email me back and then I can send them my request for a bid.

3. I am pretty sure that the vehicle with the exact combination of features that I want either doesn't exist or maybe there are one or two of them in the entire country. There might be a few more if I'm willing to accept some additional stuff (but that increases the cost, and that's the only reason I don't want it). So it looks like I might need the vehicle to be ordered. Any special tips for this situation? I'm not in a rush. I could easily wait six months. But I also want to close the deal soon and get this off my plate. Does having the dealer order the vehicle change my strategy in any way?
Any update
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:18 pm

Any update
I'm glad you asked, because I need some advice.

It's weird. So I went through the process and secured a great deal on a custom ordered vehicle. That was about 6 weeks ago or so. However, I'm very skeptical of the whole thing and I'm not sure what to do.

I did the whole thing over the phone and first of all they never charged me the standard $1000 deposit on my CC. I've contacted the sales person about it a few times and he says he is not sure why the finance guy didn't charge it, but it doesn't matter, they will do it at some point before I take delivery.

Secondly they gave me a vehicle order number. I checked directly with Chrysler and they have no record of the order. I ask the dealer about this and he says that this happens all the time. Chrysler's system is terrible for verifying order status and and I shouldn't worry because my vehicle is definitely ordered. He checks his system and says it has an estimated ship from factory date of 5/13.

So, I guess I'll just wait until next week and see what info I can find. If I were betting on it, I'd bet this vehicle was never ordered. However, I just don't understand the salesman's motivation for doing that.

A secondary problem that I have is when I need to throw in the towel on this specific order and try again. Also how do I get off the hook for the deposit. They haven't charged me, but I think I signed something saying that I'd pay a non-refunable deposit. I don't think there was a time limit on the order though. If this thing shows up in December, when after I have moved on, I don't want them to try to take the $1000 then.

Any suggestions?
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:28 pm
denovo wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:18 pm

Any update
I'm glad you asked, because I need some advice.

It's weird. So I went through the process and secured a great deal on a custom ordered vehicle. That was about 6 weeks ago or so. However, I'm very skeptical of the whole thing and I'm not sure what to do.

I did the whole thing over the phone and first of all they never charged me the standard $1000 deposit on my CC. I've contacted the sales person about it a few times and he says he is not sure why the finance guy didn't charge it, but it doesn't matter, they will do it at some point before I take delivery.

Secondly they gave me a vehicle order number. I checked directly with Chrysler and they have no record of the order. I ask the dealer about this and he says that this happens all the time. Chrysler's system is terrible for verifying order status and and I shouldn't worry because my vehicle is definitely ordered. He checks his system and says it has an estimated ship from factory date of 5/13.

So, I guess I'll just wait until next week and see what info I can find. If I were betting on it, I'd bet this vehicle was never ordered. However, I just don't understand the salesman's motivation for doing that.

A secondary problem that I have is when I need to throw in the towel on this specific order and try again. Also how do I get off the hook for the deposit. They haven't charged me, but I think I signed something saying that I'd pay a non-refunable deposit. I don't think there was a time limit on the order though. If this thing shows up in December, when after I have moved on, I don't want them to try to take the $1000 then.

Any suggestions?
I've never done a dealer order before, but my interesting is that it can be a bit haphazard. I would call Chrysler's main line to see if they can verify the order, maybe they can search by name. I don't think they are trying to put one over on you. Please update as on or after May 13th!
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:28 pm
denovo wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 3:18 pm

Any update
I'm glad you asked, because I need some advice.

It's weird. So I went through the process and secured a great deal on a custom ordered vehicle. That was about 6 weeks ago or so. However, I'm very skeptical of the whole thing and I'm not sure what to do.

I did the whole thing over the phone and first of all they never charged me the standard $1000 deposit on my CC. I've contacted the sales person about it a few times and he says he is not sure why the finance guy didn't charge it, but it doesn't matter, they will do it at some point before I take delivery.

Secondly they gave me a vehicle order number. I checked directly with Chrysler and they have no record of the order. I ask the dealer about this and he says that this happens all the time. Chrysler's system is terrible for verifying order status and and I shouldn't worry because my vehicle is definitely ordered. He checks his system and says it has an estimated ship from factory date of 5/13.

So, I guess I'll just wait until next week and see what info I can find. If I were betting on it, I'd bet this vehicle was never ordered. However, I just don't understand the salesman's motivation for doing that.

A secondary problem that I have is when I need to throw in the towel on this specific order and try again. Also how do I get off the hook for the deposit. They haven't charged me, but I think I signed something saying that I'd pay a non-refunable deposit. I don't think there was a time limit on the order though. If this thing shows up in December, when after I have moved on, I don't want them to try to take the $1000 then.

Any suggestions?
Did the dealer come through?
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 8:05 pm
Did the dealer come through?
So I checked with the dealer on 5/13 and according to his system, ship from factory date has been postponed to 6/3. So I guess I'll check in then. That would still be within the estimated time from when I made the order.

Also he did give me a VIN for the vehicle, which gives me a bit more confidence. I haven't contacted Chrysler and checked it with them yet. I'll do that sometime this week I guess.

Stay tuned.
tcw
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by tcw »

If you ordered a Pacifica that hasn't yet been built, you may have to wait a while. They stopped production of Pacificas two months ago due to the chip shortage.

The article here was written two months ago and says that production was meant to be idled for 4 weeks, but I haven't seen any information about them restarting production since then.
https://www.cars.com/articles/chrysler- ... ge-433988/
tibbitts
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Re: Does it pay to shop around?

Post by tibbitts »

hudson wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:17 am
hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 10:20 pm I'm confident that I stand with a majority of people in that I would prefer not to exchange emails and play mind games with 10 dealers the next time I need a vehicle.
I agree that it's a pain to shop around. What if you could save $4K?

I've shopped around for 5 new vehicles since the year 2000. I usually call around to 5 dealers. My final price averages around $4K lower than a large one-price-dealership's quote.

The largest Toyota dealer in my area is highly advertised; it is huge; cars move on elevators. All employees are very well dressed. Most of the Toyotas that I see on the road have that dealer's name on the license plate holder.

They consistently give me a price that's $4K higher than I can get with a few phone calls. The big dealer does not drop their price. There are dealers 25 miles away that will.

I agree its tempting to walk into a dealership and walk out with a vehicle. From 1969 until 2000, that's the way that I did it. I was only shopping the lowest monthly payment. :)

When I buy my next vehicle, I might not save $4K, but I believe that I'll get the best deal available in my area buy just calling around and asking for an out the door price on a specific vehicle.
It pays to shop around.
I just checked my notes on my last two Toyota buys. I saved $4502 and $5302 on vehicles that cost under $36K.
There's a big difference between the mind games some Bogleheads are playing and spending an hour or so just calling a few dealers. I'm not convinced calling around and asking will typically save anywhere near the amounts you've saved, but I don't think anybody would hesitate to make a few phone calls.
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Re: Does it pay to shop around?

Post by hudson »

tibbitts wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 11:53 pm
There's a big difference between the mind games some Bogleheads are playing and spending an hour or so just calling a few dealers. I'm not convinced calling around and asking will typically save anywhere near the amounts you've saved, but I don't think anybody would hesitate to make a few phone calls.
I agree. I think that making a few phone calls pays. I don't think that buyer mind games work on dealers. I speculate that a sales manager knows exactly how low he or she will go on a vehicle. I know that because many times I've gotten OTD bids on a specific vehicle on a dealer's lot in under 10 minutes. Dealers usually won't budge on scarce vehicles. Certain dealers don't budge period, but I always call them in case they've changed. I've always found several dealers are very interested in giving several OTD bids after I tell them that I'm a serious buyer who is buying say today or tomorrow. I'll call near the end of the month or year when a dealer may need to reach a goal....usually early in the week when they aren't too busy.
If I was a dealer who was interested in selling vehicles, I would much appreciate a phone call from a low key, honest, humble, straight talking, and serious buyer. A dealer can sell me a vehicle on a slack day with about 10-15 minutes of effort. No mind games, the dealer only needs to name their price.
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

A few comments. Note, I have ordered a Chrysler company vehicle myself (a Jeep Wrangler). Typically, ordered vehicles are not eligible for any rebates. I am surprised a dealer hasn't told you that. As has also been mentioned, the semiconductor shortage has shut down many factory assembly lines. This is NOT going to be solved soon. (I work for a semi company). Auto companies have to get in line behind others. They're pretty notorious for paying bottom of the barrel prices, so in the current environment, they're being pushed towards the back of the line.

If I were currently looking for a new vehicle, I'd be looking for what is on dealer lots and bargain from there. In normal times, Chrysler orders can save you a ton of money as dealers load up vehicles with lots of overpriced garbage. For example, who needs a $1500 outdated navigation system when hooking up your phone gives you a far superior system for $0.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:37 pm
denovo wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 8:05 pm
Did the dealer come through?
So I checked with the dealer on 5/13 and according to his system, ship from factory date has been postponed to 6/3. So I guess I'll check in then. That would still be within the estimated time from when I made the order.

Also he did give me a VIN for the vehicle, which gives me a bit more confidence. I haven't contacted Chrysler and checked it with them yet. I'll do that sometime this week I guess.

Stay tuned.
I think you will get your vehicle, the VIN is a good sound.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

hi_there wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:14 pm I'm curious if anyone here prefers to use Carvana or other kinds of no-haggle car buying services, and what you think of the overall buying experience - cost and time inclusive.

The process of bargaining with dealers just sounds like a nightmare. There must be a better long term solution.
I am unaware why its a mindgame to say Hey, I would like to buy VIN XXX3321 on your lot. My zip is 12345, and I would like an OTD price. Being good at negotiating is a good habit to learn, especially for your salary.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 6:28 am Typically, ordered vehicles are not eligible for any rebates. I am surprised a dealer hasn't told you that.
This is untrue unless multiple dealers were all flat out lying to me. The standard offer was "$X less whatever rebates are available at the time of delivery". I got several offers in exactly that format.
Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:46 pm

I think you will get your vehicle, the VIN is a good sound.
Well, I contacted Chrysler today and they do have a record of the VIN number. The status was that they have all the parts, but the haven't actually started building it yet. They couldn't really give me any estimate on when it will actually be done.

So, I guess this is progress. I think this is the first time in the last 6 weeks where I have felt that there is a greater than 50% chance that I'll actually get the vehicle. I'm still not getting my hopes up. Something just seems off here compared to my prior vehicle ordering experiences. Maybe it's just COVID. Who knows?
denovo
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by denovo »

asdfgf wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 10:27 am
denovo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:46 pm

I think you will get your vehicle, the VIN is a good sound.
Well, I contacted Chrysler today and they do have a record of the VIN number. The status was that they have all the parts, but the haven't actually started building it yet. They couldn't really give me any estimate on when it will actually be done.

So, I guess this is progress. I think this is the first time in the last 6 weeks where I have felt that there is a greater than 50% chance that I'll actually get the vehicle. I'm still not getting my hopes up. Something just seems off here compared to my prior vehicle ordering experiences. Maybe it's just COVID. Who knows?
Any update
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Topic Author
asdfgf
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by asdfgf »

denovo wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:42 am

Any update
Couple of things.

1. Contacted the dealer on 6/3 and they said that new estimated date of production was 7/3. So, I'll call them back then.

2. I did some digging and as others have suggested there is a production problem with the Chrysler Pacifica. They shut down production about a week after I made the order. The briefly resumed and then shut down again. There was also a planned break in production scheduled in June (and that break will still happen). So they aren't making any right now and won't start until around 7/1. So, I'm doubting that 7/3 will happen. At this point I'll be happy to get it any time this summer. The price has gone up and rebates have gone down, so if this vehicle actually arrives it will be an amazing deal. Fortunately, there is not really any urgency to this purchase, but I was expecting to get it before 2022. If that doesn't happen then it will be a bit of a problem.
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BolderBoy
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Re: Need Help Buying Car, part 2

Post by BolderBoy »

denovo wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:49 pmI am unaware why its a mindgame to say Hey, I would like to buy VIN XXX3321 on your lot. My zip is 12345, and I would like an OTD price.
Hah! I tried that today with a Mercedes dealership I shan't name. The salesman said that the dealership is not currently accepting any "bids" that aren't for more than the MSRP. The housing price insanity has come to auto land.

I was in another Benz dealership yesterday trying out the "fit" of GLA, GLB, GLC and GLE models. An elderly couple next to me was looking over a $123k SUV and the man asked the salesman if he could write a check for it.
"Never underestimate one's capacity to overestimate one's abilities" - The Dunning-Kruger Effect
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