50 gallon water heater questions

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michaeljc70
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by michaeljc70 »

CorradoJr wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am
Scott S wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:04 am I had a tankless water heater installed in my previous home, after the old one was destroyed in a flood. I was miffed that my state didn't offer any efficiency credits for tankless water heaters versus high-efficiency tank-style heaters, but I wanted one anyway. Since the hot water is on-demand, there is a slight lag in receiving hot water, and the water heater must be sized correctly for the demands of the house. But once it started, it was pretty much endless. And they free up some valuable space in the basement, too!

Our new place came with a conventional 50-gallon unit, Energy Star rated. Even with the tank, there is something of a lag in getting hot water up to the shower on the second floor anyway, so the only thing keeping me from pondering a tankless for "next time" is really the cost...
I'm not sure why there is negativity to tankless in this thread. I remodeled my house about 10 years ago and went with a gas-fired Navien tankless sized properly to my demands and home (3 bed/1 bath). There is a lag in getting the hot water going (I believe this has improved somewhat in the last decade), but the hot water is....endless. We can run the dishwasher, take a shower, the laundry, wash-hands, etc all at the same time if you want and it's 120 degrees...forever.
Tankless is a lot more practical if you live in a warmer climate. The water comes out of the ground at ~36 degrees here in the winter. That means you'd need a very powerful unit to get it to the right temperature. Those cost way more than a standard tank water heater. It is also more expensive to change from a tank to tankless due to different piping requirements.
linuxizer
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by linuxizer »

This skepticism about checking and replacing anodes is silly. It’s a $30 part. They make segmented ones now in case your ceiling is low. It doubles the life of your heater.


Speaking of pre-warming tanks, I really want solar hot water. We don’t have the roof space for PV solar, but hot water is way more efficient and only needs a 4x8 panel or two at most....
CorradoJr
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by CorradoJr »

michaeljc70 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:05 am
CorradoJr wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am
Scott S wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:04 am I had a tankless water heater installed in my previous home, after the old one was destroyed in a flood. I was miffed that my state didn't offer any efficiency credits for tankless water heaters versus high-efficiency tank-style heaters, but I wanted one anyway. Since the hot water is on-demand, there is a slight lag in receiving hot water, and the water heater must be sized correctly for the demands of the house. But once it started, it was pretty much endless. And they free up some valuable space in the basement, too!

Our new place came with a conventional 50-gallon unit, Energy Star rated. Even with the tank, there is something of a lag in getting hot water up to the shower on the second floor anyway, so the only thing keeping me from pondering a tankless for "next time" is really the cost...
I'm not sure why there is negativity to tankless in this thread. I remodeled my house about 10 years ago and went with a gas-fired Navien tankless sized properly to my demands and home (3 bed/1 bath). There is a lag in getting the hot water going (I believe this has improved somewhat in the last decade), but the hot water is....endless. We can run the dishwasher, take a shower, the laundry, wash-hands, etc all at the same time if you want and it's 120 degrees...forever.
Tankless is a lot more practical if you live in a warmer climate. The water comes out of the ground at ~36 degrees here in the winter. That means you'd need a very powerful unit to get it to the right temperature. Those cost way more than a standard tank water heater.
I live in Pennsylvania - plenty cold here in the winters.

The output or size or the unit would be calculated by a plumber, similar to a Furnace. Nothing really stands out to me here as an extra level of difficulty of having a tankless.

True, cost is more, probably double. But I don't have a 50 or 80 gallon tank in my basement ready to leak all over the place someday. And after 10 years, I'm most likely positive in my break-even period now with the efficiency/gas savings.

There are also more advanced tankless versions now with small 2-3 gallon built-in recirculating tanks (or can be plumbed separately next to the unit) so there is virtually no hot water sandwich (delay).
neilpilot
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by neilpilot »

CorradoJr wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am
I'm not sure why there is negativity to tankless in this thread. I remodeled my house about 10 years ago and went with a gas-fired Navien tankless sized properly to my demands and home (3 people). There is a lag in getting the hot water going (I believe this has improved somewhat in the last decade), but the hot water is....endless. We can run the dishwasher, take a shower, the laundry, wash-hands, etc all at the same time if you want and it's 120 degrees...forever.
We had experienced occasional electrical outages over the years that can last from a few minutes to several hours. While we had other issues with tankless, the cost of a battery backup system on the tankless unit we considered brought the already high cost of the system up by another $400-500. We decided to just replace our gas tank which, in our case, uses no external electricity.
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BrandonBogle
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by BrandonBogle »

CorradoJr wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:52 am
Scott S wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:04 am I had a tankless water heater installed in my previous home, after the old one was destroyed in a flood. I was miffed that my state didn't offer any efficiency credits for tankless water heaters versus high-efficiency tank-style heaters, but I wanted one anyway. Since the hot water is on-demand, there is a slight lag in receiving hot water, and the water heater must be sized correctly for the demands of the house. But once it started, it was pretty much endless. And they free up some valuable space in the basement, too!

Our new place came with a conventional 50-gallon unit, Energy Star rated. Even with the tank, there is something of a lag in getting hot water up to the shower on the second floor anyway, so the only thing keeping me from pondering a tankless for "next time" is really the cost...
I'm not sure why there is negativity to tankless in this thread. I remodeled my house about 10 years ago and went with a gas-fired Navien tankless sized properly to my demands and home (3 people). There is a lag in getting the hot water going (I believe this has improved somewhat in the last decade), but the hot water is....endless. We can run the dishwasher, take a shower, the laundry, wash-hands, etc all at the same time if you want and it's 120 degrees...forever.
I’m sure things will vary, but it sucked at my mother’s old home when she got tankless out in after her tank sprang a leak after 25 years. It was an outdoor unit in Miami, so no damage from the leak. It sucked that every few minutes in the shower it would go cold for a moment and then back to warm. The heating elements just have turned off periodically for a second.

My house is all-electric, no gas feed even. I also have solar. The instantaneous energy demand of tankless is quite high, especially with my 36*F groundwater in the winter. I have a traditional electric water heater now, but I will get a heat pump hybrid one eventually. In another thread someone commented that a hp water heater still works well with a heat pump hvac in the same basement, so I’ll feel comfortable to switch over when the times comes.
hudson
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by hudson »

Here's my take; I replied to another like discussion:

viewtopic.php?p=5892004#p5892004
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illumination
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by illumination »

I just replaced mine, the previous one lasted around 24 years. And I have really hard water. It was an natural gas AO Smith, the plumber I've used for a while said he stopped carrying the line because of reliability issues on newer models. I went with a Bradford White, Made in USA, which I appreciate. He also said the all the newer ones don't last as long.

I didn't really even "have to " replace the old one, it wasn't leaking. I just found I had to turn the heat on the highest level to get appropriately hot water and even after flushing several times, it was really noisy with the popping. I think just years and years of sediment had taken their toll and was probably on borrowed time. I felt I got my money's worth on it. The new model is the same size (50 gallon) but it really works much better.

I don't think tankless is worth it, at least where I live, a tankless natural gas water heater would probably save me like $6 a month on my gas bill. A traditional water heater works perfect. Maybe with electric, but I have heard lots of complaints, I'd really calculate how much savings you are looking at.

I would definitely get a water alarm as cheap insurance and I also got into the habit of shutting off my water inside the home when I went out of town. I've had several family and friends have their home's ruined when they went out of town and something was leaking.
Eddiecaps1980
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by Eddiecaps1980 »

Change the anode in it. It’s a 45 min job for 40-100 bucks depending on type. You should be able to get another 10 years out of the heater. I just did two in my new house and one was calcified and the others was nearly gone. They are sacrificial and protect your water heater itself from corroding (atleast slowing corrosion).
lazydavid
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by lazydavid »

ZinCO wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:42 pm
Blue456 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:02 pm
Jb526 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:02 pm It's a shame that when the time comes for replacement, a consumer is no longer allowed to think for themselves and select an 80-gallon residential electric water heater since they've been outlawed. I'm immensely enjoying my ten-year-old 80-gallon Kenmore Power Miser water heater with dual anodes and thicker insulation and better energy consumption than anything that the major home improvement stores were selling at the time.

Even right now, the best 50-gallon water heater that I've been able to find is a GE model currently sold by Sears that has a higher first-hour water output rating than any other 50-gallon model I've found during a cursory search. Second-best was a model at Lowe's with a slightly lower first-hour output.

Still, being that we're barred from 80-gallon residential sizes now, and other than resorting to an overpriced light-commercial model, larger households or people who like long showers are forced into an unfortunate slim selection of choices.
My wife wants 5 kids, we are on 2 now and find that we are running out of hot water when dish washer and laundry is no in our apartment. So that is another problem...
Our house of 7 years has two 50 gal gas water heaters hooked up in parallel. Apparently the previous owners did not appreciate disruptions in their morning routine (and I have to admit I appreciate the redundancy as well).
Yep, ours is the same way, and we love it. Not only does the hot water never EVER run out no matter what, it gives us flexibility on maintenance and repairs. We had our plumber install ball valves on the input and output of both tanks, so either can be locked out. Has come in handy multiple times.

When the thermostat on one unit failed, it made waiting several days at a time for parts to be shipped back and forth a non-issue. Likewise several years later when one unit failed completely, it gave us time to shop for the best deal for a replacement, and schedule our plumber at a time that was most convenient for him (and therefore cheapest for us). Hot water worked normally throughout. I will replicate this setup in any future home where we have the space for it.
Valuethinker
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by Valuethinker »

linuxizer wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:15 am This skepticism about checking and replacing anodes is silly. It’s a $30 part. They make segmented ones now in case your ceiling is low. It doubles the life of your heater.


Speaking of pre-warming tanks, I really want solar hot water. We don’t have the roof space for PV solar, but hot water is way more efficient and only needs a 4x8 panel or two at most....
If you mean that PV solar is inefficient as a way to generate hot water? then I would agree.

Roughly speaking your PV solar would be about 25% efficient. By contrast a Solar Thermal array to heat water could be 80%+ efficient (neglecting heat loss when the water is in the tank - modern tanks come super insulated and lose heat very slowly).

The point about PV solar is that it generates electricity and electricity is a form of energy which is generally much more useful (and expensive). And it could be used to power a Heat Pump water heater (3x as efficient as a gas water heater).

I decided not to go with PV solar despite attractive subsidies at the time. I could manage only 1.1kw roof array (narrow Victorian row house in England) with output of about 850 kwhr pa (1/4th of annual consumption). My electricity price is c 30 c/kwhr (in USD). I do not currently have a Time Of Use tarrif.

I would imagine that in a reasonably sunny part of the USA (but not the very sunny SW & mountain states) one could manage say 1000 kwhr pa per 1kw of arrays, and that the average American roof would permit a 2.5kw south facing array (for a house with N-S orientation).? So say 2500 kwhr pa? Perhaps 25% of the average US household electricity consumption? (for a gas heated house, with AC - huge variation depending on climate).

Pacific NW (rain, cloud, cheap electricity) or South East USA (cheap electricity prices) this almost certainly won't pay off. NE it might because of subsidies, CA & some mountain areas it would because of high retail electricity prices & high solar insolation.
Charon
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by Charon »

linuxizer wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:15 am Speaking of pre-warming tanks, I really want solar hot water. We don’t have the roof space for PV solar, but hot water is way more efficient and only needs a 4x8 panel or two at most....
I would strongly recommend against this. I bought a house with an existing solar hot water system, and in just a few years the money I've spent just on repairs alone would have paid for multiple brand new hot water heaters and years of electricity for their operation. We're cold and somewhat cloudy in the winter, so the solar does nothing then, and in the spring and fall it causes large periods where you can't shower (because it starts running but not generating very much water warming). In the summer the hot water gets up to >160℉, so you have to be incredibly careful to not burn yourself.

And our repaired system is more sophisticated than the one originally installed, where if the owner wanted to go on vacation in the summer he had to climb up on the roof and put a tarp over the panels, so the system didn't overheat and blow out all the working fluid.
gerntz
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by gerntz »

ZinCO wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:42 pm
Blue456 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:02 pm
Jb526 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:02 pm It's a shame that when the time comes for replacement, a consumer is no longer allowed to think for themselves and select an 80-gallon residential electric water heater since they've been outlawed. I'm immensely enjoying my ten-year-old 80-gallon Kenmore Power Miser water heater with dual anodes and thicker insulation and better energy consumption than anything that the major home improvement stores were selling at the time.

Even right now, the best 50-gallon water heater that I've been able to find is a GE model currently sold by Sears that has a higher first-hour water output rating than any other 50-gallon model I've found during a cursory search. Second-best was a model at Lowe's with a slightly lower first-hour output.

Still, being that we're barred from 80-gallon residential sizes now, and other than resorting to an overpriced light-commercial model, larger households or people who like long showers are forced into an unfortunate slim selection of choices.
My wife wants 5 kids, we are on 2 now and find that we are running out of hot water when dish washer and laundry is no in our apartment. So that is another problem...
Our house of 7 years has two 50 gal gas water heaters hooked up in parallel. Apparently the previous owners did not appreciate disruptions in their morning routine (and I have to admit I appreciate the redundancy as well).
I like the idea of two, but think having them in series would be better - first one to say 100 degrees & the other at full heat. That way semi-hot water doesn't run out & the full heat one gets up to temp real quick. In parallel - unless the lines come back together - if one goes out then half the house is out of hot water. Then maybe the two side are interconnected by valving, don't know.
neilpilot
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by neilpilot »

gerntz wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:35 am
I like the idea of two, but think having them in series would be better - first one to say 100 degrees & the other at full heat. That way semi-hot water doesn't run out & the full heat one gets up to temp real quick. In parallel - unless the lines come back together - if one goes out then half the house is out of hot water. Then maybe the two side are interconnected by valving, don't know.
This link goes thru an interesting discussion of the options
http://waterheatertimer.org/Two-water-heaters.html
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illumination
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by illumination »

Charon wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:28 am
linuxizer wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:15 am Speaking of pre-warming tanks, I really want solar hot water. We don’t have the roof space for PV solar, but hot water is way more efficient and only needs a 4x8 panel or two at most....
I would strongly recommend against this. I bought a house with an existing solar hot water system, and in just a few years the money I've spent just on repairs alone would have paid for multiple brand new hot water heaters and years of electricity for their operation. We're cold and somewhat cloudy in the winter, so the solar does nothing then, and in the spring and fall it causes large periods where you can't shower (because it starts running but not generating very much water warming). In the summer the hot water gets up to >160℉, so you have to be incredibly careful to not burn yourself.

And our repaired system is more sophisticated than the one originally installed, where if the owner wanted to go on vacation in the summer he had to climb up on the roof and put a tarp over the panels, so the system didn't overheat and blow out all the working fluid.
My in-laws have a system, they have to do the same thing where they place a tarp over it because it gets too hot. They've also had lots of issues.
It seems like it would be a no-brainer and so simple, but their experience would make be second guess it. There's better ways to lower a utility bill.
lazydavid
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by lazydavid »

gerntz wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:35 am I like the idea of two, but think having them in series would be better - first one to say 100 degrees & the other at full heat. That way semi-hot water doesn't run out & the full heat one gets up to temp real quick. In parallel - unless the lines come back together - if one goes out then half the house is out of hot water. Then maybe the two side are interconnected by valving, don't know.
Ours was originally in series and we switched it to parallel when one unit failed. There are a few issues with series. One is that it makes it virtually impossible to easily tell that one of the units is not working. With them in parallel, I quickly notice if the hot water isn't quite as hot as normal, and can run downstairs, identify the failed unit, and turn off its valves, restoring normal hot water service in a matter of seconds. But the bigger issue with having them in series is that you still have to take both of them down to do repairs on one of them. With my setup, I was able to physically remove one water heater and get it out of the house a full week before the new one got installed, with zero interruption in service.

And of course the lines come back together--if they didn't, it wouldn't be a parallel system, it would be two separate systems. When there's only one HW heater, there's only one outflow line. a second line feeding half the house doesn't magically pop into existence when you decide to add a second heater.
ZinCO
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by ZinCO »

lazydavid wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:11 pm
gerntz wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:35 am I like the idea of two, but think having them in series would be better - first one to say 100 degrees & the other at full heat. That way semi-hot water doesn't run out & the full heat one gets up to temp real quick. In parallel - unless the lines come back together - if one goes out then half the house is out of hot water. Then maybe the two side are interconnected by valving, don't know.
Ours was originally in series and we switched it to parallel when one unit failed. There are a few issues with series. One is that it makes it virtually impossible to easily tell that one of the units is not working. With them in parallel, I quickly notice if the hot water isn't quite as hot as normal, and can run downstairs, identify the failed unit, and turn off its valves, restoring normal hot water service in a matter of seconds. But the bigger issue with having them in series is that you still have to take both of them down to do repairs on one of them. With my setup, I was able to physically remove one water heater and get it out of the house a full week before the new one got installed, with zero interruption in service.

And of course the lines come back together--if they didn't, it wouldn't be a parallel system, it would be two separate systems. When there's only one HW heater, there's only one outflow line. a second line feeding half the house doesn't magically pop into existence when you decide to add a second heater.
All true. I did originally consider having ours redone to be in series, where it would certainly be more efficient (in particular as only one unit would be holding water at high temperature). But then the thermostat on one failed, and as lazydavid also experienced, it was trivial to turn one off for a week and get it replaced when it was convenient for us. I noticed because the water was luke-warm, but once I shut off the input to the failed unit, the family never noticed an issue. That's worth something right there...

If you had the tanks at opposite sides of the house, then you'd have the advantage of shorter runs (and shorter wait times for hot water in the shower). But no redundancy obviously, except that SOMEWHERE in the house you'd have hot water. My basement is not set up that way though and the units are side-by-side.
egrets
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by egrets »

I've had two start leaking at ten years so now I have them replaced at eight years.
michaelingp
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by michaelingp »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

The only time I've ever heard of people doing it was in RV water heaters made by Suburban. But even then, it seems to take years before the anode rod goes bad.
Years ago we had an RV with a Suburban water heater. My memory was that I replaced the anode every year, and most years there was nothing left of it. Never replaced one in the residential hot water heater, in fact, this is the first I'd ever heard of it. I just watched a YouTube video on how to do it, and it looked easy enough if everything worked right, but in my plumbing experience that never happens, so I don't think I'd attempt it.
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willthrill81
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by willthrill81 »

michaelingp wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

The only time I've ever heard of people doing it was in RV water heaters made by Suburban. But even then, it seems to take years before the anode rod goes bad.
Years ago we had an RV with a Suburban water heater. My memory was that I replaced the anode every year, and most years there was nothing left of it. Never replaced one in the residential hot water heater, in fact, this is the first I'd ever heard of it. I just watched a YouTube video on how to do it, and it looked easy enough if everything worked right, but in my plumbing experience that never happens, so I don't think I'd attempt it.
Every year? Wow. It seems that really hard water corrodes the anode rod more quickly, but I don't know.
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neilpilot
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by neilpilot »

willthrill81 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:02 pm
michaelingp wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

The only time I've ever heard of people doing it was in RV water heaters made by Suburban. But even then, it seems to take years before the anode rod goes bad.
Years ago we had an RV with a Suburban water heater. My memory was that I replaced the anode every year, and most years there was nothing left of it. Never replaced one in the residential hot water heater, in fact, this is the first I'd ever heard of it. I just watched a YouTube video on how to do it, and it looked easy enough if everything worked right, but in my plumbing experience that never happens, so I don't think I'd attempt it.
Every year? Wow. It seems that really hard water corrodes the anode rod more quickly, but I don't know.
Hard water certainly will reduce the anode’s useful life.
Last edited by neilpilot on Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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willthrill81
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Re: 50 gallon water heater questions

Post by willthrill81 »

neilpilot wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:06 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:02 pm
michaelingp wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:53 pm

The only time I've ever heard of people doing it was in RV water heaters made by Suburban. But even then, it seems to take years before the anode rod goes bad.
Years ago we had an RV with a Suburban water heater. My memory was that I replaced the anode every year, and most years there was nothing left of it. Never replaced one in the residential hot water heater, in fact, this is the first I'd ever heard of it. I just watched a YouTube video on how to do it, and it looked easy enough if everything worked right, but in my plumbing experience that never happens, so I don't think I'd attempt it.
Every year? Wow. It seems that really hard water corrodes the anode rod more quickly, but I don't know.
Hard water certainly will reduce the anode’s useful life. It doesn’t corrode, it erodes.
Gotcha. We used our electric water heater for 6.5 years before we got a water softener. I wonder whether it even has an accessible anode rod. I should probably check.
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