Flooring

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Post Reply
Topic Author
edgeagg
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Location: WA-US

Flooring

Post by edgeagg »

I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring. Some parameters and questions:

1) We'd be replacing our solid oak floors with either engineered hardwood or with solid wood and installing over a plywood subfloor.
2) Insurance would compensate us for the cost of the 2.5 inch oak flooring we had and so we'd be out of pocket on any upgrades - this isn't the key factor.

Questions:

1) For the engineered hardwood (not laminate) users out there, any regrets?
2) Should we upgrade to hickory over oak. Yes, it is harder, but are there any other reasons to pay the premium?
3) Does upgrading from 2.5 to bigger widths make a significant improvement in looks?

Many thanks and looking for the usual massive infusion of wisdom from the collective.
ea
Doohop65
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:54 am

Re: Flooring

Post by Doohop65 »

I can’t offer a great deal of insight as we are currently shopping as well.

As best I can tell, the major benefit other than cost in engineered flooring is it tends to be less prone to movement due to the underlayment. Depending on who I ask, some folks claim it can be refinished once, others claim that refinishing engineered wood doesn’t work so well.

We are looking at some hickory and maple solid wood floors. I prefer them at the moment as I am a bit of a traditionalist. The wide boards will cost less to install since it goes so much faster. My dw prefers the narrower boards. One salesman told use the wide is in style at the moment so there are more options there.

If anyone has a more compelling story on engineered I would love to hear it. At the moment, I will be spending the extra money for solid wood.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring. Some parameters and questions:

1) We'd be replacing our solid oak floors with either engineered hardwood or with solid wood and installing over a plywood subfloor.
2) Insurance would compensate us for the cost of the 2.5 inch oak flooring we had and so we'd be out of pocket on any upgrades - this isn't the key factor.

Questions:

1) For the engineered hardwood (not laminate) users out there, any regrets?
2) Should we upgrade to hickory over oak. Yes, it is harder, but are there any other reasons to pay the premium?
3) Does upgrading from 2.5 to bigger widths make a significant improvement in looks?

Many thanks and looking for the usual massive infusion of wisdom from the collective.
ea
I used to sell flooring and have installed a lot myself over the years.

Engineered hardwood, in general, is a great product. There are several situations where solid wood cannot be used but engineered can. For instance, with very few exceptions, you cannot install solid wood directly on concrete but you can with engineered wood.

The only significant drawback with engineered wood is that it cannot be sanded and refinished as many times as solid wood can, but few use their wood floors long enough to warrant refinishing them, so this isn't much of a benefit to most people.

In my experience, there isn't a meaningful difference in the density of hickory or oak.

The width of plans does matter from an aesthetic perspective. Broadly speaking, narrow planks look more like traditional hardwood, while wider planks look more modern.
The Sensible Steward
seppatown
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:46 am

Re: Flooring

Post by seppatown »

Just posted this response earlier today in another thread:

Our experience with hardwood, engineered hardwood, and LVP -

-Solid Hardwood: Would not recommend in any circumstance for renovation and new builds. Quality and appearance are no longer competitive with price. The whole concept of "refinishing" is outdated, as the factory poly finish on both engineered and LVP products are far superior to anything that can be performed on site. 3 coats of a high-quality oil-based poly applied during a professional refinish wouldn't get you anywhere near the durability of a factory finish. Small hardwood planks also look dated, and traditional finishing methods create an unappealing flat glossy look by contemporary standards.

-Engineered hardwood: With the right product, I find the appearance to be unmatched. By right, I mean wood that still retains some interesting characteristics and defects. I actually find the most expensive, defect-free rift-sawn products to look "too clean" and boring. The mid-range products with some knots and defects (filled in) are more appealing to me. The downside to all engineered products are A. requiring perfect subfloor prep during installation and B. having to baby the floor against spills due to the use of wood-based cores. You see tons of complaints against contractors in every geographical market due to poor subfloor conditions onto which the engineered hardwood was installed. Onto the next...

-Luxury Vinyl Plank: This has a come a long way in the last 10-20 years. I just finished an install of Flooret Modin and would recommend it over all the top-of-the-line big box products from Lowes and Home Depot. It has better underlayment, a better core, and a 40mil wear layer that I'm finding harder to scratch. It also comes in an attractive 9" width that I find suitable for high-end, contemporary builds.

From my experience, high quality LVP wears better, can live happily on less-than-ideal subfloor conditions, is fully waterproof, and looks competitive with high-end engineered hardwood if you buy good product. If home resale value is not being considered, I find it to be the best choice on the market right now.
Sgnoweht
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:02 pm

Re: Flooring

Post by Sgnoweht »

I manufacture reclaimed hardwood flooring. I will agree that the hardness is negligible between species in hardwood. My personal floor is mixed species, 4,5, and 6inch(wider planks look better). mostly beech, ash, hickory. It all scratches equally.
If you go real hardwood it will scratch. Ours are terribly scratched from two 80lb dogs. We gouged it with a piano on move in day. The piano gouge is 3/4" wide x 1/8" deep, but it's hard to find. The dog scratches aren't visible in most light.
The natural finish combined with the character of reclaimed hides the damage.

We don't make as many floors as we used to, a lot of clients go with engineered hardwood.
usagi
Posts: 461
Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:08 am

Re: Flooring

Post by usagi »

seppatown wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:32 pm If home resale value is not being considered, I find it to be the best choice on the market right now.
Can you expand on the part quoted above; I do not get it.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

I forgot to mention that we've had engineered solid (no, that's not an oxymoron in this instance) bamboo flooring for the last six years, and it looks almost as great as the day I installed it. It's very scratch resistant, and any scratches that do occur mostly vanish after being wiped with Old English.
The Sensible Steward
Topic Author
edgeagg
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Location: WA-US

Re: Flooring

Post by edgeagg »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:29 pm
edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring. Some parameters and questions:

1) We'd be replacing our solid oak floors with either engineered hardwood or with solid wood and installing over a plywood subfloor.
2) Insurance would compensate us for the cost of the 2.5 inch oak flooring we had and so we'd be out of pocket on any upgrades - this isn't the key factor.

Questions:

1) For the engineered hardwood (not laminate) users out there, any regrets?
2) Should we upgrade to hickory over oak. Yes, it is harder, but are there any other reasons to pay the premium?
3) Does upgrading from 2.5 to bigger widths make a significant improvement in looks?

Many thanks and looking for the usual massive infusion of wisdom from the collective.
ea
I used to sell flooring and have installed a lot myself over the years.

Engineered hardwood, in general, is a great product. There are several situations where solid wood cannot be used but engineered can. For instance, with very few exceptions, you cannot install solid wood directly on concrete but you can with engineered wood.

....

The width of plans does matter from an aesthetic perspective. Broadly speaking, narrow planks look more like traditional hardwood, while wider planks look more modern.
@Willthrill, thanks!

Was the omission of solid hardwood by design? I assume so. We are installing on subfloor, not concrete. I like the wider planking too.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:56 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:29 pm
edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring. Some parameters and questions:

1) We'd be replacing our solid oak floors with either engineered hardwood or with solid wood and installing over a plywood subfloor.
2) Insurance would compensate us for the cost of the 2.5 inch oak flooring we had and so we'd be out of pocket on any upgrades - this isn't the key factor.

Questions:

1) For the engineered hardwood (not laminate) users out there, any regrets?
2) Should we upgrade to hickory over oak. Yes, it is harder, but are there any other reasons to pay the premium?
3) Does upgrading from 2.5 to bigger widths make a significant improvement in looks?

Many thanks and looking for the usual massive infusion of wisdom from the collective.
ea
I used to sell flooring and have installed a lot myself over the years.

Engineered hardwood, in general, is a great product. There are several situations where solid wood cannot be used but engineered can. For instance, with very few exceptions, you cannot install solid wood directly on concrete but you can with engineered wood.

....

The width of plans does matter from an aesthetic perspective. Broadly speaking, narrow planks look more like traditional hardwood, while wider planks look more modern.
@Willthrill, thanks!

Was the omission of solid hardwood by design? I assume so. We are installing on subfloor, not concrete. I like the wider planking too.
Nah, I just forgot.

Solid flooring is a pain in the butt to install because it nearly always must be nailed down, and some of the planks must almost certainly be face-nailed. It's a slow, tedious process, even for those who know what they're doing.

Even on a subfloor, I would opt for engineered over solid unless you just cannot get the look you want with engineered.
The Sensible Steward
Topic Author
edgeagg
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Location: WA-US

Re: Flooring

Post by edgeagg »

seppatown wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:32 pm Just posted this response earlier today in another thread:

Our experience with hardwood, engineered hardwood, and LVP -

-Solid Hardwood: Would not recommend in any circumstance for renovation and new builds. Quality and appearance are no longer competitive with price. The whole concept of "refinishing" is outdated, as the factory poly finish on both engineered and LVP products are far superior to anything that can be performed on site. 3 coats of a high-quality oil-based poly applied during a professional refinish wouldn't get you anywhere near the durability of a factory finish. Small hardwood planks also look dated, and traditional finishing methods create an unappealing flat glossy look by contemporary standards.

-Engineered hardwood: With the right product, I find the appearance to be unmatched. By right, I mean wood that still retains some interesting characteristics and defects. I actually find the most expensive, defect-free rift-sawn products to look "too clean" and boring. The mid-range products with some knots and defects (filled in) are more appealing to me. The downside to all engineered products are A. requiring perfect subfloor prep during installation and B. having to baby the floor against spills due to the use of wood-based cores. You see tons of complaints against contractors in every geographical market due to poor subfloor conditions onto which the engineered hardwood was installed. Onto the next...

-Luxury Vinyl Plank: This has a come a long way in the last 10-20 years. I just finished an install of Flooret Modin and would recommend it over all the top-of-the-line big box products from Lowes and Home Depot. It has better underlayment, a better core, and a 40mil wear layer that I'm finding harder to scratch. It also comes in an attractive 9" width that I find suitable for high-end, contemporary builds.

From my experience, high quality LVP wears better, can live happily on less-than-ideal subfloor conditions, is fully waterproof, and looks competitive with high-end engineered hardwood if you buy good product. If home resale value is not being considered, I find it to be the best choice on the market right now.
Thanks @Seppatown.

We are likely to sell in the next 10 years or so and therefore resale value is an issue. No dogs, no cats, no high heels :-). Is water resistance that bad still? Some of the engineered wood from Bruce seems to have some sort of resistant coating or so they say.
User avatar
Helo80
Posts: 2125
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Unsophisticated Investor

Re: Flooring

Post by Helo80 »

Another vote in my book for the engineered hardwood floor. While I love me a good solid hardwood floor, and such floors still exist in 200+ year homes (and I could imagine be sanded and restored with the right crew), the practicality of solid hardwood is that none of us are living 200 years unless things drastically change, and styles and tastes change in 200 years.
Last edited by Helo80 on Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank God for Wall Street Bets.
Topic Author
edgeagg
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Location: WA-US

Re: Flooring

Post by edgeagg »

Sgnoweht wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:32 pm I manufacture reclaimed hardwood flooring. I will agree that the hardness is negligible between species in hardwood. My personal floor is mixed species, 4,5, and 6inch(wider planks look better). mostly beech, ash, hickory. It all scratches equally.
If you go real hardwood it will scratch. Ours are terribly scratched from two 80lb dogs. We gouged it with a piano on move in day. The piano gouge is 3/4" wide x 1/8" deep, but it's hard to find. The dog scratches aren't visible in most light.
The natural finish combined with the character of reclaimed hides the damage.

We don't make as many floors as we used to, a lot of clients go with engineered hardwood.
Is the engineered wood finish harder?
seppatown
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:46 am

Re: Flooring

Post by seppatown »

usagi wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:40 pm Can you expand on the part quoted above; I do not get it.
In certain markets, at certain price points, engineered hardwood is an expected spec alongside other premium finishes. LVP, even the good stuff, is still considered “lower” grade and could affect marketability.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:01 pm
Sgnoweht wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:32 pm I manufacture reclaimed hardwood flooring. I will agree that the hardness is negligible between species in hardwood. My personal floor is mixed species, 4,5, and 6inch(wider planks look better). mostly beech, ash, hickory. It all scratches equally.
If you go real hardwood it will scratch. Ours are terribly scratched from two 80lb dogs. We gouged it with a piano on move in day. The piano gouge is 3/4" wide x 1/8" deep, but it's hard to find. The dog scratches aren't visible in most light.
The natural finish combined with the character of reclaimed hides the damage.

We don't make as many floors as we used to, a lot of clients go with engineered hardwood.
Is the engineered wood finish harder?
Yes. It's common now for manufacturers to use aluminum oxide as part of the finish, which adds to its durability.
The Sensible Steward
squirm
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: Flooring

Post by squirm »

Engineered wood floor will still dent from say a fork falling on it, so go with a harder species such as pecan, hickory etc and make sure it has a thick wear layer. When I look at homes to purchase, first thing i look at is the floor, laminate is trash and fake. a good nailed down or glue down (not floating) engineered or solid adds a lot of value to your home.

Engineered is better if it gets wet than solid due to the grains being perpendicular among layers, but it will still cup.
Last edited by squirm on Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

squirm wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:11 pm Engineered wood floor will still dent from say a fork falling on it, so go with a harder species such as pecan, hickory etc and make sure it has a thick wear layer. When I look at homes to purchase, first thing i look at is the floor, laminate is trash and fake. a good nailed down or glue down (not floating) engineered or solid adds a lot of value to your home.
Why don't you like a floating hardwood floor? That's the optimal way to install some engineered floors. It was the only way we could install our engineered solid bamboo over concrete, and it's worked fine.
The Sensible Steward
seppatown
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:46 am

Re: Flooring

Post by seppatown »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:59 pm Thanks @Seppatown.
We are likely to sell in the next 10 years or so and therefore resale value is an issue. No dogs, no cats, no high heels :-). Is water resistance that bad still? Some of the engineered wood from Bruce seems to have some sort of resistant coating or so they say.
Any sort of big spill or flooding can cause damage since the core, which is basically the body and structural integrity of engineered flooring, is wood-based and can drink water. The finish of engineered flooring (and every other kind of cheap -> expensive flooring) is waterproof, so small spills are not a big deal. More below on that.

Another thing to consider is that any sort of hardwood flooring (engineered or solid) can splinter and show damage over time if the subfloor is uneven (which is always the case in older homes), or if there's any significant deflection in the flooring. An installation that stands the test of time requires high-quality subfloor preparation, which homeowners and contractors often cheap out on.

LVP is exceptionally forgiving in comparison. The boards can withstand bends, deflection, and water penetration with no issue.

10-years is a lot of time. But if you baby the floor and use mild cleaners, there should be no issue keeping it nice for resale.
edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:01 pm Is the engineered wood finish harder?
All types of factory pre-finished flooring - laminate, LVP, engineered, solid hardwood -are available with aluminum oxide-boosted polyurethane. The only way to really compare finishes, in my personal opinion, is to buy samples of each product and scratch them up with an utility knife. Wear layer alone does not tell the full story. There's a ton of variability and no manufacturer publishes specs.

Another thing to pay close attention to is the underlayment. It can be built in to some products, or is otherwise installed and purchased separately. The underlayment is like a rug pad - it affects the walk-over experience and can significantly attenuate footfall noise.
squirm
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: Flooring

Post by squirm »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:16 pm
squirm wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:11 pm Engineered wood floor will still dent from say a fork falling on it, so go with a harder species such as pecan, hickory etc and make sure it has a thick wear layer. When I look at homes to purchase, first thing i look at is the floor, laminate is trash and fake. a good nailed down or glue down (not floating) engineered or solid adds a lot of value to your home.
Why don't you like a floating hardwood floor? That's the optimal way to install some engineered floors. It was the only way we could install our engineered solid bamboo over concrete, and it's worked fine.
Optimal really means quick and cheap.
I glued ours down directly to the slab. I first leveled the slab via grinding and concrete fill, then combed a water proof coating over it. I then glued down the engineered wood, I tightened it every 5 rows while gluing by drilling wedges into the slab and letting the glue start to bite and rolled it. The whole house is one solid floor, I did not use any T molding anywhere. Very straight throughout. It's a extremely tight and an extremely solid feeling floor with zero echo, zero sound when walking on it. To me, floating floors feel and sound very "cheap". Anything something falls on it, it acts like a speaker. I would never float a floor, but that's just me.
seppatown
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:46 am

Re: Flooring

Post by seppatown »

squirm wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:56 pm Optimal really means quick and cheap.
I glued ours down directly to the slab. I first leveled the slab via grinding and concrete fill, then combed a water proof coating over it. I then glued down the engineered wood, I tightened it every 5 rows while gluing by drilling wedges into the slab and letting the glue start to bite and rolled it. The whole house is one solid floor, I did not use any T molding anywhere. Very straight throughout. It's a extremely tight and an extremely solid feeling floor with zero echo, zero sound when walking on it. To me, floating floors feel and sound very "cheap". Anything something falls on it, it acts like a speaker. I would never float a floor, but that's just me.
Kudos to your meticulous install. The thing for me is that glue down requires a truly 100% flat subfloor, which isn't possible without substantial prep-work in lived-in homes. This can often mean full subfloor replacement. Floating is going to be less labor/skill/resource-dependent, and can often be performed straight over old flooring with zero detrimental effects.

I would also argue that, especially with LVP, the tongue and groove sealing is much, much tighter on floating flooring. It's important that the entire layer be able to act as an impenetrable membrane against fluids. Your glue-down may have been performed with pride and care and appear tight visually, but the physical seal will always be more secure on a floated click-lock system that exists under high tension.

Regarding foot-fall, noise, and feel: I have glue down engineered flooring at home, and various brands of LVP that I personally installed at other locations. The LVP is dead silent, solid-feeling, and has a little bit more give that makes it easier to walk on barefoot. These were installed on top of old plywood subfloors in stick-framed, second-story floors. The only prep work was sealing the plywood and adding self-leveling concrete. The LVP doesn't feel, look, or sound cheap at all. Most people assume it is top-of-the-line engineered flooring when they see and walk on it.

I am much more careful with my glued-down engineered flooring at home. I can see gaps between planks and am concerned about longevity in high-traffic areas, especially in the kitchen where small spills regularly occur.
Topic Author
edgeagg
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Location: WA-US

Re: Flooring

Post by edgeagg »

Thanks so much for all the insightful comments. Some context:

We are rebuilding the home after a fire that basically took out the whole home. Therefore the entire subfloor is being replaced all over the house. Is there something that I should tell the contractor to do or not to do wrt the engineered floor since it appears to be the consensus to go with it over hardwood.

In terms of home values and custom finishes etc: The homes in our development typically go for 1-1.5 m depending on square footage. Our home is larger and so likely to go towards the top end when sold. Therefore, good flooring is likely important for resale.
thanks
ea
User avatar
lthenderson
Posts: 8525
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:43 am
Location: Iowa

Re: Flooring

Post by lthenderson »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring.
I've had houses with both and recently installed a houseful of solid hardwood and saw a lot of incorrect information mentioned above.

1. Saw mentioned that finished engineered floors have more durable finish. There wasn't a mention that solid hardwood can come prefinished in the same durable finishes. Our solid wood floor had aluminum oxide finish that nearly destroyed my planer when I went to use a leftover board for a small project.

2. Also saw mention that solid floor is mostly nail down. In my recent experience that isn't true anymore. I wanted nail down and had a hard time finding it as most solid wood comes in click lock planks.

3. Several mentioned price or premiums for hardwood flooring and in my recent experience, this also wasn't the case. My hardwood flooring was about in the middle of the price range for engineered flooring.

Like I said I've had both and they both can be perfectly fine. In the end we went with solid wood for a couple reasons. I like the feel. I can tell the difference when walking on a floating floor versus nail down and I want that nail down solid feel. The second reason is in the past when I have had engineered flooring, it has been damaged by dropping heavy objects onto it that were sharp enough to pierce the wood layer. The problem is the "engineered" core is a totally different color and it sticks out like a sore thumb. You are left with trying to color match it which is about impossible to do. With solid wood, even with a big dent, the coloring is the same and it can be filled in with clear epoxies and almost disappear. If one damages a plank, at least with nail down flooring, you can always pull up one plank and repair one plank without tearing out the entire floor.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

edgeagg wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:14 am Thanks so much for all the insightful comments. Some context:

We are rebuilding the home after a fire that basically took out the whole home. Therefore the entire subfloor is being replaced all over the house. Is there something that I should tell the contractor to do or not to do wrt the engineered floor since it appears to be the consensus to go with it over hardwood.

In terms of home values and custom finishes etc: The homes in our development typically go for 1-1.5 m depending on square footage. Our home is larger and so likely to go towards the top end when sold. Therefore, good flooring is likely important for resale.
thanks
ea
Nothing special has to be done to the subfloor no matter which hardwood you install. It can be either glued or nailed down to a wooden subfloor. We glued down about 1,400 sq. ft. of Brazilian tigerwood in our first house, half over a wood subfloor and half over concrete. The floor was beautiful, but the finish was so smooth that it showed footprints badly. We weren't going to rip it out, and that was a contributing factor in our selling the home.

Regarding home values, homes in the $1-$1.5 million range vary tremendously in terms of their size, quality, etc. around the country. In a LCOL area, that's a very high-end custom home. In the Bay area, it's not much more than a starter home. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. If you get something that you like and that isn't very taste specific, it will improve the market value of the property.
The Sensible Steward
Benbo
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:26 pm

Re: Flooring

Post by Benbo »

edgeagg wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:14 am Thanks so much for all the insightful comments. Some context:

We are rebuilding the home after a fire that basically took out the whole home. Therefore the entire subfloor is being replaced all over the house. Is there something that I should tell the contractor to do or not to do wrt the engineered floor since it appears to be the consensus to go with it over hardwood.

In terms of home values and custom finishes etc: The homes in our development typically go for 1-1.5 m depending on square footage. Our home is larger and so likely to go towards the top end when sold. Therefore, good flooring is likely important for resale.
thanks
ea
We just replaced all the flooring in our house with LVP. We wanted to go with engineered hardwood, but it was too expensive. One thing we learned the hard way is that it's very important to check the subfloor for flatness. Make sure it meets the spec for whatever flooring you choose. I think our LVP spec'd 3/16" over 10 feet. Our installer finished the entire kitchen before we noticed it looked wavy. We had to fight with them to pull up the planks and put down some self-leveling compound to flatten the floor to spec. It would have been much easier if we had checked the sub-floor first. Luckily we had it in writing that they install per the manufacturers' instructions. If I had to do it again, I'd pick an installer that agreed before hand to inspect the sub-floor and repair if necessary.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Flooring

Post by willthrill81 »

Benbo wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:18 am
edgeagg wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 6:14 am Thanks so much for all the insightful comments. Some context:

We are rebuilding the home after a fire that basically took out the whole home. Therefore the entire subfloor is being replaced all over the house. Is there something that I should tell the contractor to do or not to do wrt the engineered floor since it appears to be the consensus to go with it over hardwood.

In terms of home values and custom finishes etc: The homes in our development typically go for 1-1.5 m depending on square footage. Our home is larger and so likely to go towards the top end when sold. Therefore, good flooring is likely important for resale.
thanks
ea
We just replaced all the flooring in our house with LVP. We wanted to go with engineered hardwood, but it was too expensive. One thing we learned the hard way is that it's very important to check the subfloor for flatness. Make sure it meets the spec for whatever flooring you choose. I think our LVP spec'd 3/16" over 10 feet. Our installer finished the entire kitchen before we noticed it looked wavy. We had to fight with them to pull up the planks and put down some self-leveling compound to flatten the floor to spec. It would have been much easier if we had checked the sub-floor first. Luckily we had it in writing that they install per the manufacturers' instructions. If I had to do it again, I'd pick an installer that agreed before hand to inspect the sub-floor and repair if necessary.
I'm glad that you were able to get that fixed. Many installers would have just walked away.

Floating floors are much more forgiving with slightly uneven floors than are products which must be glued down. Self-leveling underlayment, which is a concrete product, is really easy to install since you just add water, mix it up, and pour it out on the floor (it seeks its own level), but it's relatively expensive. We spent once spent about $500 on some to help level a relatively small section of a concrete slab before installing glue-down hardwood, and we easily could (and really should) have spent triple that in order to completely cover more of the floor and get it level.
The Sensible Steward
squirm
Posts: 4239
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: Flooring

Post by squirm »

seppatown wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:49 am
squirm wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:56 pm Optimal really means quick and cheap.
I glued ours down directly to the slab. I first leveled the slab via grinding and concrete fill, then combed a water proof coating over it. I then glued down the engineered wood, I tightened it every 5 rows while gluing by drilling wedges into the slab and letting the glue start to bite and rolled it. The whole house is one solid floor, I did not use any T molding anywhere. Very straight throughout. It's a extremely tight and an extremely solid feeling floor with zero echo, zero sound when walking on it. To me, floating floors feel and sound very "cheap". Anything something falls on it, it acts like a speaker. I would never float a floor, but that's just me.
Kudos to your meticulous install. The thing for me is that glue down requires a truly 100% flat subfloor, which isn't possible without substantial prep-work in lived-in homes. This can often mean full subfloor replacement. Floating is going to be less labor/skill/resource-dependent, and can often be performed straight over old flooring with zero detrimental effects.

I would also argue that, especially with LVP, the tongue and groove sealing is much, much tighter on floating flooring. It's important that the entire layer be able to act as an impenetrable membrane against fluids. Your glue-down may have been performed with pride and care and appear tight visually, but the physical seal will always be more secure on a floated click-lock system that exists under high tension.

Regarding foot-fall, noise, and feel: I have glue down engineered flooring at home, and various brands of LVP that I personally installed at other locations. The LVP is dead silent, solid-feeling, and has a little bit more give that makes it easier to walk on barefoot. These were installed on top of old plywood subfloors in stick-framed, second-story floors. The only prep work was sealing the plywood and adding self-leveling concrete. The LVP doesn't feel, look, or sound cheap at all. Most people assume it is top-of-the-line engineered flooring when they see and walk on it.

I am much more careful with my glued-down engineered flooring at home. I can see gaps between planks and am concerned about longevity in high-traffic areas, especially in the kitchen where small spills regularly occur.
Thanks. Yes a glue down floor requires the slab to be flat (doesn't have to be level). The requirements are usually listed within instructions. The click and lock might lock out water better, but I've seen floating floors cup from planters that spilled. All wood floors require care and the biggest one is keeping fluids off the floor. If the glue down floor does become cupped or warped in a small area or section, it's possible to cut out the section and install new planks and glue them down (The tongue will need to be cut off). (I've seen some wood floors that weren't properly acclimated ended up buckling after installation.)

I'm not familiar with LVP, I just know that hardwood flooring either engineered or solid when properly installed will result in a beautiful floor that will last generations when cared for and add value to the house. It's not easy to install especially what I did, but the results were excellent....funny enough my wife was so excited after the first 50 square feet I had glued down she literally started dancing on it.

My wife is dying for me to install hardwood at our new house. I told her when I do, I would only do the same thing - another engineered glue down directly onto the slab and low sheen.
Topic Author
edgeagg
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm
Location: WA-US

Re: Flooring

Post by edgeagg »

lthenderson wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:48 am
edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring.
I've had houses with both and recently installed a houseful of solid hardwood and saw a lot of incorrect information mentioned above.

1. Saw mentioned that finished engineered floors have more durable finish. There wasn't a mention that solid hardwood can come prefinished in the same durable finishes. Our solid wood floor had aluminum oxide finish that nearly destroyed my planer when I went to use a leftover board for a small project.

2. Also saw mention that solid floor is mostly nail down. In my recent experience that isn't true anymore. I wanted nail down and had a hard time finding it as most solid wood comes in click lock planks.

3. Several mentioned price or premiums for hardwood flooring and in my recent experience, this also wasn't the case. My hardwood flooring was about in the middle of the price range for engineered flooring.

Like I said I've had both and they both can be perfectly fine. In the end we went with solid wood for a couple reasons. I like the feel. I can tell the difference when walking on a floating floor versus nail down and I want that nail down solid feel. The second reason is in the past when I have had engineered flooring, it has been damaged by dropping heavy objects onto it that were sharp enough to pierce the wood layer. The problem is the "engineered" core is a totally different color and it sticks out like a sore thumb. You are left with trying to color match it which is about impossible to do. With solid wood, even with a big dent, the coloring is the same and it can be filled in with clear epoxies and almost disappear. If one damages a plank, at least with nail down flooring, you can always pull up one plank and repair one plank without tearing out the entire floor.
Yes, agreed on the prefinished solid floor. Went to the Bruce site and the majority of them are prefinished. Perhaps what was said that was when they are refinished, they may not look as good as a new floor.

In my mind, the major difference is that the engineered wood planks are wider and provide a more modern look at the same price point. It is also possible that I am in error on this :-)
User avatar
lthenderson
Posts: 8525
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:43 am
Location: Iowa

Re: Flooring

Post by lthenderson »

edgeagg wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 1:27 pm
lthenderson wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:48 am
edgeagg wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:33 pm I'd love to hear from bogleheads on the topic of flooring and actual experiences with engineered hardwood vs solid wood flooring.
I've had houses with both and recently installed a houseful of solid hardwood and saw a lot of incorrect information mentioned above.

1. Saw mentioned that finished engineered floors have more durable finish. There wasn't a mention that solid hardwood can come prefinished in the same durable finishes. Our solid wood floor had aluminum oxide finish that nearly destroyed my planer when I went to use a leftover board for a small project.

2. Also saw mention that solid floor is mostly nail down. In my recent experience that isn't true anymore. I wanted nail down and had a hard time finding it as most solid wood comes in click lock planks.

3. Several mentioned price or premiums for hardwood flooring and in my recent experience, this also wasn't the case. My hardwood flooring was about in the middle of the price range for engineered flooring.

Like I said I've had both and they both can be perfectly fine. In the end we went with solid wood for a couple reasons. I like the feel. I can tell the difference when walking on a floating floor versus nail down and I want that nail down solid feel. The second reason is in the past when I have had engineered flooring, it has been damaged by dropping heavy objects onto it that were sharp enough to pierce the wood layer. The problem is the "engineered" core is a totally different color and it sticks out like a sore thumb. You are left with trying to color match it which is about impossible to do. With solid wood, even with a big dent, the coloring is the same and it can be filled in with clear epoxies and almost disappear. If one damages a plank, at least with nail down flooring, you can always pull up one plank and repair one plank without tearing out the entire floor.
Yes, agreed on the prefinished solid floor. Went to the Bruce site and the majority of them are prefinished. Perhaps what was said that was when they are refinished, they may not look as good as a new floor.

In my mind, the major difference is that the engineered wood planks are wider and provide a more modern look at the same price point. It is also possible that I am in error on this :-)
It depends on the type of solid wood for sure. We got bamboo which though solid material throughout is still manufactured and has planks six inches wide. But I would say the large majority are 3 to 5 inches in width.
Post Reply