Best Tires

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jrbdmb
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Re: Best Tires

Post by jrbdmb »

Note that for lower mileage drivers, the mileage claims for Michelins may be moot, as they may need to be replaced for dry rot before the tread is gone. My wife's Pathfinder is an example - plenty of tread left on her Defenders, but advised to replace them soon due to dry rot on the sidewalls and tread.
talzara
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Re: Best Tires

Post by talzara »

Northern Flicker wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:51 pm But the frequency of activation of anti-lock brakes can vary from tire to tire. I had Goodrich Traction T/A tires on a car. I never had the anti-lock brakes activate. When they were worn close to the wear bar, I replaced the tires with General Altria tires highly rated by Tire Rack and Consumer Reports. Subsequently, the anti-lock brakes would activate with some regularity.
Unless you've tested the tires head-to-head under controlled conditions, you can't be sure there are no other confounding variables. If you get tires that feel better when you drive, you may subconsiously drive more aggressively. That would paradoxically cause the better tires to slip more.

The testing agencies take out all the variables by testing the tires on the same car, on the same track, with the same driver, under the same conditions. They press the brake pedal all the way down so that they can be sure the antilock brakes activate every time.

When Tire Rack ran this test, they found that the General Altimax RT43 had the shortest stopping distance of all four tires they tested head-to-head:
To simulate a panic stop we conducted a separate objective test measuring the distance needed to stop from 50mph using maximum pedal pressure to engage the Anti Lock Brakes during the entire stop distance. Like we found on the handling course, the AltiMAX RT43 led the way with a very good 119.6 feet to stop from 50mph.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/te ... p?ttid=178
They did not test the BFGoodrich Traction T/A. I'd be interested in seeing the old results from IIHS if you have a link.

The BF Goodrich Traction T/A is an older tire that's no longer being manufactured, so it's going to have a hard time coming out on top. The state of the art is advancing. The best new tire is usually better than the best old tire.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:08 pm It's interesting that you listed only Michelin tires. Every time I shopped Michelin I found their products to sell at a significant premium with no apparent benefit. Does Costco sell other brands?
Michelins we've owned have last longer than other tires we've owned.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

talzara wrote: They did not test the BFGoodrich Traction T/A. I'd be interested in seeing the old results from IIHS if you have a link.

The BF Goodrich Traction T/A is an older tire that's no longer being manufactured, so it's going to have a hard time coming out on top. The state of the art is advancing. The best new tire is usually better than the best old tire.
IIHS data I used to get was put behind a paywall some years ago, which was why I used CR and Tire Rack when I selected the General Altimax tires. They were the cheapest premium tire available for the car in question, which I no longer own.

Goodrich developed some polymer/rubber technology where they use a more pliable polymer/rubber and add in some silica. They had the shortest stopping distance on wet pavement of any tires tested by IIHS at the time. I think the technology has been used in some Michelin tires (probably the Premier A/S) as well, as Michelin owns Goodrich.
talzara
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Re: Best Tires

Post by talzara »

lazydavid wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:08 am
talzara wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:15 pm All tires have the same stopping distance as long as the car doesn't skid or activate the antilock brakes.
This is completely incorrect, and in fact could never be correct unless tire quality and wear were completely immaterial to vehicle handling and safety. Tires have different traction thresholds before they skid or force the ABS to activate.

You yourself have posted links to tire tests that show stopping distances to differ between tires. From your two links above, for example, the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ had a stopping distance from 60mph of 80.9 feet in dry conditions on a BMW 430i, while the ExtremeContact DSW06 took 88 feet in the same test. That's a 9% difference. Or about twice the width of a crosswalk. :shock:
I never said anything about being "immaterial to vehicle handling and safety." I said only "as long as the car doesn't skid or activate the antilock brakes."

You're taking my quote out of context. I was replying to someone who claimed the General Altimax RT43 had "worse ie longer stopping distance on dry pavement." I took it for granted that you would never activate the antilock brakes on dry pavement in normal driving. You should only be activating the antilock brakes on dry pavement in emergencies. That should be happening so infrequently that you couldn't compare one tire to another.

I've never activated the antilock brakes on dry pavement -- not even once.

It turns out that this person was finding that "the anti-lock brakes would activate with some regularity." That changes things. Now you have to to look at the stopping distance with the antilock brakes activated. Tire Rack found that the General Altimax RT43 had the shortest braking distance out of four tires that they tested head-to-head.
talzara
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Re: Best Tires

Post by talzara »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:08 pm It's interesting that you listed only Michelin tires. Every time I shopped Michelin I found their products to sell at a significant premium with no apparent benefit. Does Costco sell other brands?
Costco only sells Michelin and Bridgestone tires. BFGoodrich is also sold at Costco since it is owned by Michelin. Like anything else that Costco sells, it only buys a couple of brands to maximize its volume and negotiate the deepest discount.

Michelin tires are overpriced, so Costco just brings them down to a more reasonable price. You can buy a better tire for a lower price from another tire store. It's not like Costco is selling Kirkland Signature tires.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

I thought Michelin tires were overpriced too until I replaced a set of Goodrich tires with Michelin Premier A/S tires. They have a smoother, quieter ride, and are lasting longer per amount of mileage so far. They are worth more to me, and cost was not that much more.

I think General and Continental tires are overhyped. I won't ever buy General again after my one experience with the Altimax. They were $30/tire cheaper than the Goodrich tire I would otherwise have purchased for that car, and my experience leads me to believe that they were likely worth $30/tire less.
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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whodidntante
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Re: Best Tires

Post by whodidntante »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:11 pm
whodidntante wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:08 pm It's interesting that you listed only Michelin tires. Every time I shopped Michelin I found their products to sell at a significant premium with no apparent benefit. Does Costco sell other brands?
Michelins we've owned have last longer than other tires we've owned.
I believe you, but tire design is about tradeoffs.

There is no tire that simultaneously optimizes tread life, hot temperature traction, cold temperature traction, wet traction, snow traction, mud traction, cornering traction, braking traction, acceleration traction, noise, rolling resistance, puncture resistance, ride comfort, load rating, cost, and directionality. So when you bought those tires that were optimized for tread life, you gave up ground in other characteristics whether you knew it or not. Manufacturers offer a product line so you can choose a blend of characteristics that work OK for you. My point is that Michelin typically charges a premium for no apparent benefit compared to similar offerings from other manufacturers. And other manufacturers do offer tires that are designed to maximize tread life.
Harri88
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Harri88 »

talzara wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:15 pm
Harri88 wrote: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:38 am I'll add another good A/S tire to the fray. Continental Extreme Contact DWS06. I put these on my wifes car and she loves them, they give her confidence during the winter driving weather. The General Alti-Max is another good one for the Money. I put these on our daughters, and she has not had any issues with them.
If you live in a place that gets a lot of snow, you should buy your wife new tires immediately. Her feeling of "confidence" could put her life in danger, because she will drive more aggressively on a dangerous set of tires. Your daughter is safe.

The Continental Extreme Contact DWS 06 is an ultra high-performance "all-season" tire. Those tires are designed to be driven on asphalt in the summer. They perform very poorly in the snow. They're called "all-season" because at least they're better than summer tires. They fall far short of touring all-season tires in the snow.

Here is Tire Rack's test of ultra high-performance "all-season" tires, including the Extreme Contact. Performance is great on wet/dry track, but it drops off a lot in the snow: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/te ... p?ttid=241

Here is Tire Rack's test of touring all-season tires, including the AltiMAX RT43. Performance is good (not great) on wet/dry track, but they still perform well in the snow: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/te ... p?ttid=215

This is a great example of why you should not rely on testimonials when buying tires.
[OT comment removed by Moderator Misenplace.]

I am well aware of the type of tire that I put on her car, and they do not perform poorly in the snow as you stated. We have had them on the car for 2-3 years now, and they perform well on snow and ice. [OT comment removed by Moderator Misenplace.]

I'm going to disagree with you on a statement you made above about T rated tires for the OP's size. T rating is the speed which is 118 and the max speed for the MPV, if it can achieve that speed. Unless the MIL is pegging her speedo, slaloming through the Sierra's in a 16 year old Minivan then a T rated tire will be fine. She needs to be concerned with the load rating and that needs to be the same or higher, which is 96 for the MPV.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSear ... adRating=S

OP can take what is said in the thread and discuss with MIL and their local Tire dealer to make an informed decision.
rockstar
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Re: Best Tires

Post by rockstar »

Costco is hit or miss on tires. I'd also check out Discount Tires to add more tires to your list and more prices.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

whodidntante wrote:
My point is that Michelin typically charges a premium for no apparent benefit compared to similar offerings from other manufacturers. And other manufacturers do offer tires that are designed to maximize tread life.
Specs and variables may be held constant for comparison. I looked at 225/45R17 tires at tirerack.com.

Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4 225/45ZR17 Y-rated, UTQG spec 500 AA A at $141/tire

Goodyear Exhilirate 225/45R17 W-rated, UTQG spec 500 AA A at $143/tire.

The difference between W and Y speed ratings is irrelevant, but the Y-rating technically even is a slightly higher spec.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

It used to be harder to get tires from say Goodyear or Bridgestone that matched the specs of Michelin tires, so the latter were more expensive and higher spec. Now that all of the major companies offer high and low spec tires, the prices also seem to have converged.
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
talzara
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Re: Best Tires

Post by talzara »

Harri88 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:22 pm I am well aware of the type of tire that I put on her car, and they do not perform poorly in the snow as you stated. We have had them on the car for 2-3 years now, and they perform well on snow and ice. Regardless of your expert analysis.
I gave no "expert analysis" of those tires. I linked to Tire Rack's expert analysis of those tires and described Tire Rack's finding that the tires perform poorly in the snow compared to other tires in the same category. Not just a little worse, but a lot worse.

In fact, I've been telling people not to trust testimonials about how a tire performs. One person in this thread said that the Michelin Defender is great, and another person said it's terrible. One person in this thread said the General Altimax RT43 is great, and another person said it's terrible. How is the OP supposed to make a decision based on this kind of information.

Controlled tests are the best way to evaluate a tire. It's tested head-to-head against other tires on the same car, on the same track, under the same conditions, by the same drivers. That makes it possible to evaluate what happens to performance and handling when you change only the tire. Some people use Tire Rack, other people use Consumer Reports, and one person used IIHS.
Harri88 wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:22 pm I'm going to disagree with you on a statement you made above about T rated tires for the OP's size. T rating is the speed which is 118 and the max speed for the MPV, if it can achieve that speed. Unless the MIL is pegging her speedo, slaloming through the Sierra's in a 16 year old Minivan then a T rated tire will be fine.
I never said the OP will need to drive faster than 118 mph through the Sierra Nevada Mountains.

What I wrote about T-rated tires is that Walmart won't install them on an H-rated car. Even if you only drive 25 mph to church on Sundays, they won't install tires that don't meet manufacturer recommendations.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

H-rated tires have more aggressive traction than otherwise identical T-tated tires. If the safety engineering for a car is done with H-rated tires, the entire braking/stopping system is out of spec if T-rated tires are installed, and safety may be compromised a little. It is not just a speed rating spec.
lazydavid
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Re: Best Tires

Post by lazydavid »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:10 pm H-rated tires have more aggressive traction than otherwise identical T-tated tires. If the safety engineering for a car is done with H-rated tires, the entire braking/stopping system is out of spec if T-rated tires are installed, and safety may be compromised a little. It is not just a speed rating spec.
This is not correct. It is solely a rating based on the tire's ability to carry the rated load at the rated speed without damage or failure. Here is the entirety of the European ECE test for speed rating certification:
  • the tire is properly inflated and mounted on a wheel attached to a testing machine in a room that’s heated to 77 degrees F.
  • The tire is pressed against a metal drum with enough pressure to simulate a realistic load.
  • Starting at a speed 40 km/h lower than the proposed rating level, the tire is spun for 10-minute increments at higher and higher speeds, until it
  • reaches the target speed.
  • The tire spins for 10 minutes at the target speed.
  • It’s then removed from the machine and inspected for any failures, like separation of tread components. If it’s intact, it passes the speed rating.
  • Sometimes an SUS (step-up speed) test will be added after the tire performs at the target speed rating. Speed is increased until the tire fails.
  • If the tire is being tested at the SAE standard, it’s required to run for an hour at target speed in a room heated to 100 degrees.
And here is a summary of the SAE test suite:
  • A strength test, which evaluates the strength of the reinforcing materials in the tire
  • A resistance-to-bead unseating test, which evaluates how well the tire bead is seated on the rim (regulating the tire-rim interface guards against sudden loss of tire air pressure when a tire is subjected to lateral forces such as during severe turning maneuvers)
  • An endurance test, which evaluates resistance to heat buildup when the tire is run at its rated load nonstop for a total of 34 hours
  • A high speed test, which evaluates resistance to heat buildup when the tire is run at 88 percent of its maximum load at speeds of 75 mph, 80 mph, and 85 mph for 30 minutes at each speed.
In neither testing suite is there any mention whatsoever of anything remotely resembling traction. The closest you get is the SAE testing the ability of the tire bead to stay on the rim. So while it is possible that the same tire may have a different tread compound between speed ratings, it is not likely. It is even less likely that the tread pattern would be different. There is going to be FAR more difference in these factors between two different tire models with the same speed rating, than for two variants of the same model with different speed ratings.

Auto Manufacturers' tire speed rating requirements are designed to avoid heat-related failures of tires, when the specific vehicle is driven fully loaded, at its maximum rated speed. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

Nonetheless, H-rated tires have better stopping power than T-rated tires, all else equal.

from: https://www.lesschwab.com/article/tire- ... tters.html
Tires with higher speed ratings offer handling benefits that thrill some drivers, but there are tradeoffs. Since they’re usually made with softer rubber compounds and stiffer construction they offer better cornering, stopping power and steering response.
Best practice is to use tires that are in spec with the manufacturer's recommendation for safety reasons.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by GG1273 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:44 pm I thought Michelin tires were overpriced too until I replaced a set of Goodrich tires with Michelin Premier A/S tires. They have a smoother, quieter ride, and are lasting longer per amount of mileage so far. They are worth more to me, and cost was not that much more.

I think General and Continental tires are overhyped. I won't ever buy General again after my one experience with the Altimax. They were $30/tire cheaper than the Goodrich tire I would otherwise have purchased for that car, and my experience leads me to believe that they were likely worth $30/tire less.

Continental owns General

I've had the Altimax on my Camry and haven't had issues yet - I replaced a set of Turanzas that came with the car (those are terrible).
lazydavid
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Re: Best Tires

Post by lazydavid »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:06 pm Nonetheless, H-rated tires have better stopping power than T-rated tires, all else equal.

from: https://www.lesschwab.com/article/tire- ... tters.html
Tires with higher speed ratings offer handling benefits that thrill some drivers, but there are tradeoffs. Since they’re usually made with softer rubber compounds and stiffer construction they offer better cornering, stopping power and steering response.
Best practice is to use tires that are in spec with the manufacturer's recommendation for safety reasons.
I'll very loosely agree with your last sentence, while re-affirming that for most people, the difference between a 118 mph rating and a 130 mph one is completely immaterial when they never go above 75. But if a car is technically capable of going 119+ mph, the manufacturer MUST spec H-rated tires for liability reasons.

Literally nowhere in that article does it support your contention that the same model tire has a different compound based on varying speed rating. Does my Pilot SuperSport with a Y (186 mph) rating have a stickier compound and a more aggressive tread pattern than a Defender with a T (118 mph) rating? Absolutely. But that is entirely due to the fact that one is an ultra high performance summer tire that wears out incredibly quickly, and the other is a touring all-season tire meant for long life. That doesn't in any way translate to a measurable difference between a T-rated Defender and an H-rated one.

If your contention was true, T-rated tires would consistently have a higher treadwear rating than H-rated tires of the same model, because the softer, stickier rubber would wear faster (just like my SuperSports do). I have never seen that to be the case. Feel free to provide examples if you have them.
Northern Flicker
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Northern Flicker »

T-rated tires do in fact last longer than the same model H-rated tires. I have used the same Goodrich tires, H-rated and T-rated, on the same car as consecutive sets of tires and the T-rated ones lasted almost twice as long. It was in fact my investigating why I experienced the different longevity that led to my learning that the difference is not just max speed, as noted in the Les Schwab tire store link I posted.

Here is an example of a model of tire where the T-rated version has a 55,000 mile treadwear warranty and the H-rated version has only a 40,000 mile treadwear warranty, because of the softer compound.

https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/steering ... ily-driver
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Re: Best Tires

Post by lazydavid »

Well played sir. You win this round. :happy And I learned something new, so good all around.
JackoC
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Re: Best Tires

Post by JackoC »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:01 pm T-rated tires do in fact last longer than the same model H-rated tires. I have used the same Goodrich tires, H-rated and T-rated, on the same car as consecutive sets of tires and the T-rated ones lasted almost twice as long. It was in fact my investigating why I experienced the different longevity that led to my learning that the difference is not just max speed, as noted in the Les Schwab tire store link I posted.

Here is an example of a model of tire where the T-rated version has a 55,000 mile treadwear warranty and the H-rated version has only a 40,000 mile treadwear warranty, because of the softer compound.

https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/steering ... ily-driver
Yeah this is a somewhat old reference but (2009) Consumer Reports article found the average tread life of S/T's (they tested) was 61,080, H's 49,180, V's 48,260. So it seems in general the design factors which cause the well known tendency of Y's (186mph) to have pretty short life extend down the speed rating curve. My Pilot Super Sport PS4S's (Y) have a remarkable (for that rating) 30k mile warranty, we'll see what actually happens. Continental Sport Contact's the car (BMW M2) came with were worn to marginal in the rear (active differential, hard cornering on remote winding roads) in around 10k.

As mentioned it's probably futile to try to get a major installer to put on tires below manufacturer's spec. And that will be explained by 'it's not just the car's top speed but overall design requirements' but really translates I think to 'a T rating would high likely be fine on this slow car though OEM specifies H but we're not going to get into case by case second guessing of manufacturer specs then have you sue us when you wreck for any reason'. Our 2005 Lexus GX allows T, electronic speed limiter is at 112 (haven't and wouldn't go near it). I've seen MPV quoted variously in same range, hard to believe it absolutely needs the higher speed rating.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/new ... or%20tires.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

6miths wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:46 pm I put Michelin CrossClimate+ (or now CrossClimate 2) tires from Costco on my mom's car last time it needed new tires and plan to transition our cars to these tires as well now that we are retired and have no need to drive in blizzards. All-season that is rated pretty much the same as a snow tire on everything but glare ice and wears well. Won't have to do the bi-annual tire swap.
Our Lexus RX350 is in need for new tires and our research to date indicates the Michelin CrossClimate2 is near the top of the list. I'd be interested in your feedback now that you (or your Mom) have been using the tires for some time. We have mounted snow tires and intend to continue to swap them bi-annually.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by 6miths »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 am
6miths wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:46 pm I put Michelin CrossClimate+ (or now CrossClimate 2) tires from Costco on my mom's car last time it needed new tires and plan to transition our cars to these tires as well now that we are retired and have no need to drive in blizzards. All-season that is rated pretty much the same as a snow tire on everything but glare ice and wears well. Won't have to do the bi-annual tire swap.
Our Lexus RX350 is in need for new tires and our research to date indicates the Michelin CrossClimate2 is near the top of the list. I'd be interested in your feedback now that you (or your Mom) have been using the tires for some time. We have mounted snow tires and intend to continue to swap them bi-annually.
My mom had no issues with the tires over this past winter but we had almost no snow. This isn't particularly unusual anymore in southern Ontario so my plan is still to transition our other vehicles to these tires as they need new summer tires and then stop with the winter tires. I think if I had no choice but to drive in bad conditions due to work commitments that I would likely still keep winter tires on one of the vehicles but this isn't the case so the plan remains. The testing from Consumer Reports on the CrossClimate looks almost too good to be true TBH. I definitely liked the feel of the tires when I have driven the car which has always had some type of Michelin on it - winter or summer. Vehicle is a 2004 Acura TSX. One of the initial issues with the CrossClimate was that it was only available in a limited number of sizes.
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Starfish
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Starfish »

finite_difference wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 pm
Big Dog wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 am on a car that old, I'd probably save the money and go with BFGoodrich Advantage TA Sport, which are rated nearly the same on TireRack.
I would argue that an older car needs to have better tires because of less effective electronic stability control and crumple zones.

But generally speaking I would buy the best tires you can afford period. And keep them properly inflated and rotate them regularly to distribute the wear evenly.

I’d go with the Michelin Defender. And get another set of snow tires (Blizzaks, etc.) if you are driving in wintry conditions.
I have driving in snow for decades now, and never felt the need for snow tires in California or East Coast (or Colorado etc).
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Re: Best Tires

Post by quantAndHold »

This reminds me of one of those threads where someone asks if Folgers is okay, and all the coffee nerds come out of the woodwork.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by mr_brightside »

had the Defenders on a Mazda for around 75K miles. they were solid. no personal experience with the others.

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Re: Best Tires

Post by mr_brightside »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:23 pm This reminds me of one of those threads where someone asks if Folgers is okay, and all the coffee nerds come out of the woodwork.

so true. I'm on some other boards also -- there is ALWAYS the crew of 'aficianados' who love to get into the details / weeds. could be anything:

which __________ is best: coffee, computers, guns, tires, fishing gear, cigars, scotch, investment firm, photography gear, etc.

always fun. i usually read 'til I cant take it anymore then flip a coin... :D

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Leesbro63
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Leesbro63 »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 am
6miths wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:46 pm I put Michelin CrossClimate+ (or now CrossClimate 2) tires from Costco on my mom's car last time it needed new tires and plan to transition our cars to these tires as well now that we are retired and have no need to drive in blizzards. All-season that is rated pretty much the same as a snow tire on everything but glare ice and wears well. Won't have to do the bi-annual tire swap.
Our Lexus RX350 is in need for new tires and our research to date indicates the Michelin CrossClimate2 is near the top of the list. I'd be interested in your feedback now that you (or your Mom) have been using the tires for some time. We have mounted snow tires and intend to continue to swap them bi-annually.
I drive a 2020 RX350 that still has the OEM Bridgestone tires. Before that I had a 2017 RX350 where I installed, after the OEMS had worn down, Pirelli All Season Scorpion Plus. They were great and I'll probably put the same tires on my current vehicle soon. The Michelin tire you suggest seems to have the severe snow rating. Might not be the best tire for year-round. I'm not sure what year RX and what tire size you need. If you take time on the TIRERACK site, you can eventually find a chart that rates tires for your specific vehicle. That's what I do.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by finite_difference »

Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:59 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 pm
Big Dog wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 am on a car that old, I'd probably save the money and go with BFGoodrich Advantage TA Sport, which are rated nearly the same on TireRack.
I would argue that an older car needs to have better tires because of less effective electronic stability control and crumple zones.

But generally speaking I would buy the best tires you can afford period. And keep them properly inflated and rotate them regularly to distribute the wear evenly.

I’d go with the Michelin Defender. And get another set of snow tires (Blizzaks, etc.) if you are driving in wintry conditions.
I have driving in snow for decades now, and never felt the need for snow tires in California or East Coast (or Colorado etc).
What kind of cars/tires?

If you have narrow high quality all season tires and the roads are cleared or heavily salted you might get away with not using winter/snow tires but I don’t think it’s a good idea. Your control and stopping ability will be severely compromised.
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finite_difference
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Re: Best Tires

Post by finite_difference »

quantAndHold wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:23 pm This reminds me of one of those threads where someone asks if Folgers is okay, and all the coffee nerds come out of the woodwork.
If you start a thread called “Best coffee” and one of your options is Folgers then I would be disappointed if the enthusiasts didn’t come out of the woodwork.

Here the OP has 3 good options but also asked for “Best”. :D
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
Starfish
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Starfish »

finite_difference wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:33 pm
Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:59 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 pm
Big Dog wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 am on a car that old, I'd probably save the money and go with BFGoodrich Advantage TA Sport, which are rated nearly the same on TireRack.
I would argue that an older car needs to have better tires because of less effective electronic stability control and crumple zones.

But generally speaking I would buy the best tires you can afford period. And keep them properly inflated and rotate them regularly to distribute the wear evenly.

I’d go with the Michelin Defender. And get another set of snow tires (Blizzaks, etc.) if you are driving in wintry conditions.
I have driving in snow for decades now, and never felt the need for snow tires in California or East Coast (or Colorado etc).
What kind of cars/tires?

If you have narrow high quality all season tires and the roads are cleared or heavily salted you might get away with not using winter/snow tires but I don’t think it’s a good idea. Your control and stopping ability will be severely compromised.
All kind of FWD cars, from 1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse which was great in snow (94HP or so), Hinda Civic, Mazda 6S, VW CC to all kind of cheapest compact rental cars with the worst tires. I generally buy the best all season tires (UHP, sometimes favoring winter performance), but in many cases I cannot control the quality of the tires (new cars, or rentals).
I ski a lot, I skied from Vermont to California, from Colorado to Washington, from Utah to NY (plus some places in Europe). In continental United States, or at least in most of the states mentioned there is no need for winter tiers. I would probably get them if I lived in a place where there is snow on the ground for months but definitely not for occasional trips in the Sierras where you have to put on chains anyway if you do not have AWD.
Starfish
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Starfish »

I find fascinating how many people want to save on tires by buying the "long lasting" ones, which are usually terrible. An accident or health or life is so much more expensive.
finite_difference
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Re: Best Tires

Post by finite_difference »

Starfish wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:27 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:33 pm
Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:59 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 pm
Big Dog wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:59 am on a car that old, I'd probably save the money and go with BFGoodrich Advantage TA Sport, which are rated nearly the same on TireRack.
I would argue that an older car needs to have better tires because of less effective electronic stability control and crumple zones.

But generally speaking I would buy the best tires you can afford period. And keep them properly inflated and rotate them regularly to distribute the wear evenly.

I’d go with the Michelin Defender. And get another set of snow tires (Blizzaks, etc.) if you are driving in wintry conditions.
I have driving in snow for decades now, and never felt the need for snow tires in California or East Coast (or Colorado etc).
What kind of cars/tires?

If you have narrow high quality all season tires and the roads are cleared or heavily salted you might get away with not using winter/snow tires but I don’t think it’s a good idea. Your control and stopping ability will be severely compromised.
All kind of FWD cars, from 1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse which was great in snow (94HP or so), Hinda Civic, Mazda 6S, VW CC to all kind of cheapest compact rental cars with the worst tires. I generally buy the best all season tires (UHP, sometimes favoring winter performance), but in many cases I cannot control the quality of the tires (new cars, or rentals).
I ski a lot, I skied from Vermont to California, from Colorado to Washington, from Utah to NY (plus some places in Europe). In continental United States, or at least in most of the states mentioned there is no need for winter tiers. I would probably get them if I lived in a place where there is snow on the ground for months but definitely not for occasional trips in the Sierras where you have to put on chains anyway if you do not have AWD.
Ok you really need to edit that first post as follows:

High quality all season tires with chains as needed. LoL.

Also more importantly I am incredibly jealous of all that skiing. Sounds so amazing.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
teCh0010
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Re: Best Tires

Post by teCh0010 »

TallBoy29er wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:34 pm Michelin Defender is terrible in snow based on my personal experience. You'd want snow tires or chains if going to the Sierras.
Which defender? It’s a family of tires, not one tire.

My personal experience with the defender LTX M+S is that it was pretty good in the snow.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

talzara wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:39 pm

I never said anything about being "immaterial to vehicle handling and safety." I said only "as long as the car doesn't skid or activate the antilock brakes."

You're taking my quote out of context. I was replying to someone who claimed the General Altimax RT43 had "worse ie longer stopping distance on dry pavement." I took it for granted that you would never activate the antilock brakes on dry pavement in normal driving. You should only be activating the antilock brakes on dry pavement in emergencies. That should be happening so infrequently that you couldn't compare one tire to another.

I've never activated the antilock brakes on dry pavement -- not even once.

It turns out that this person was finding that "the anti-lock brakes would activate with some regularity." That changes things. Now you have to to look at the stopping distance with the antilock brakes activated. Tire Rack found that the General Altimax RT43 had the shortest braking distance out of four tires that they tested head-to-head.
I taught high performance driving for a dozen years following a couple decades of roadracing. One of the basic things you should know about your own car is how it feels to engage ABS and how to (not) react to it. Before either of my kids had their drivers licenses, on their permit, I'd take each of them to a large, empty parking lot. First exercise is simply to get the car up to about 40 and mash the brake to the floor as hard as possible. This gives them the feel of what ABS feels like. A common (wrong) reaction is to let up on the brake because it feels unfamiliar while the ABS pump pulsates the brake fluid and pedal. Second exercise is to again get the car to 40, mash the brake and turn hard. This is the entire reason for ABS brakes. It allows you to panic brake and steer out of the emergency. I've had this happen with someone on a side street looking the other way but not my way and pulling in front of me. I mashed the brake and was able to steer behind this car, then back in order to not hit the curb. Do this a bunch of times so it becomes familiar.
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Starfish
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Starfish »

finite_difference wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:54 am
Starfish wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:27 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:33 pm
Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:59 pm
finite_difference wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:27 pm

I would argue that an older car needs to have better tires because of less effective electronic stability control and crumple zones.

But generally speaking I would buy the best tires you can afford period. And keep them properly inflated and rotate them regularly to distribute the wear evenly.

I’d go with the Michelin Defender. And get another set of snow tires (Blizzaks, etc.) if you are driving in wintry conditions.
I have driving in snow for decades now, and never felt the need for snow tires in California or East Coast (or Colorado etc).
What kind of cars/tires?

If you have narrow high quality all season tires and the roads are cleared or heavily salted you might get away with not using winter/snow tires but I don’t think it’s a good idea. Your control and stopping ability will be severely compromised.
All kind of FWD cars, from 1993 Mitsubishi Eclipse which was great in snow (94HP or so), Hinda Civic, Mazda 6S, VW CC to all kind of cheapest compact rental cars with the worst tires. I generally buy the best all season tires (UHP, sometimes favoring winter performance), but in many cases I cannot control the quality of the tires (new cars, or rentals).
I ski a lot, I skied from Vermont to California, from Colorado to Washington, from Utah to NY (plus some places in Europe). In continental United States, or at least in most of the states mentioned there is no need for winter tiers. I would probably get them if I lived in a place where there is snow on the ground for months but definitely not for occasional trips in the Sierras where you have to put on chains anyway if you do not have AWD.
Ok you really need to edit that first post as follows:

High quality all season tires with chains as needed. LoL.

Also more importantly I am incredibly jealous of all that skiing. Sounds so amazing.

OP's mother lives in Bay Area. Chains are required in California Sierra's when it snows for non-awd cars.
The rest of the places not only don't require them but might ban them outright. I lived 5 years in North East making 15k$ a year, there are no chains there and my tires were pretty far from "high quality".
Also more importantly I am incredibly jealous of all that skiing. Sounds so amazing.
It took me 20 years to gather that list :).
M633
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Re: Best Tires

Post by M633 »

Kenkat wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:30 pm The Defender and X Tour are very similar tires; the X Tour is exclusively offered for Costco but is purportedly based on the Defender.
+1. I too was recently trying to decide between the X Tour and Defender from Costco. I was told they're the exact same tire, it's just that the X Tour is branded for sale exclusively at Costco. (https://tiredeets.com/michelin-x-tour-a-s-t-h-review/) I went with the X Tour's and saved about $50 vs the Defenders.
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Re: Best Tires

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

6miths wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:37 pm
Peculiar_Investor wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 am
6miths wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:46 pm I put Michelin CrossClimate+ (or now CrossClimate 2) tires from Costco on my mom's car last time it needed new tires
Our Lexus RX350 is in need for new tires and our research to date indicates the Michelin CrossClimate2 is near the top of the list. I'd be interested in your feedback now that you (or your Mom) have been using the tires for some time.
My mom had no issues with the tires over this past winter but we had almost no snow.
Our Lexus RX350 got the CrossClimate2's installed this week. Given the forecast +18 C weather today ☀ and then the snow ❄ forecast in the next few days I guess we will get to test them in all conditions this week. 😂😎
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inbox788
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Re: Best Tires

Post by inbox788 »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:45 amOur Lexus RX350 got the CrossClimate2's installed this week. Given the forecast +18 C weather today ☀ and then the snow ❄ forecast in the next few days I guess we will get to test them in all conditions this week. 😂😎
I saw a couple of reviews for the CC2 and it's supposed to be a great all around tire. The Premier LTX has been out of stock in my size and CrossClimate2 is actually costs a little less, but does it make sense in the sun belt areas with 90% summer driving conditions, no snow and little rain?

Seems like it's the best of everything, almost too good to be true. I didn't see it spelled out, but given the tread pattern, I assume it's a directional tire, so rotations a little more limited, so any alignment or balance issues are more pronounced.

https://tiredeets.com/best-tires-for-lexus-rx350/ (2019 before CC2)
https://tiredeets.com/michelin-crossclimate-2-review/ (looks like a no brainer and no tradeoffs, just better, and would likely jump to the top of the list)
talzara
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Re: Best Tires

Post by talzara »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:40 pm I taught high performance driving for a dozen years following a couple decades of roadracing. One of the basic things you should know about your own car is how it feels to engage ABS and how to (not) react to it.
British driving schools actually have students practice an emergency stop. 1 out of 3 British driving tests includes an emergency stop, and you'll fail if you don't brake hard enough.

However, I was replying to a post about losing traction on dry pavement, not student drivers. If you're only using ABS in emergencies, then you don't know how much traction the tires actually have on dry pavement. If you just avoided a collision, are you going to get out and measure your stopping distance?

That's why I recommend looking at the test data from Consumer Reports, Tire Rack, or other testing agencies. They're pushing the brake pedal down all the way, so they're activating the ABS every time. If one tire stops in 130 feet and another tires stops in 160 feet, that's a difference of almost two car lengths.
vfinx
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Re: Best Tires

Post by vfinx »

Peculiar_Investor wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:45 am
6miths wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:37 pm
Peculiar_Investor wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 am
6miths wrote: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:46 pm I put Michelin CrossClimate+ (or now CrossClimate 2) tires from Costco on my mom's car last time it needed new tires
Our Lexus RX350 is in need for new tires and our research to date indicates the Michelin CrossClimate2 is near the top of the list. I'd be interested in your feedback now that you (or your Mom) have been using the tires for some time.
My mom had no issues with the tires over this past winter but we had almost no snow.
Our Lexus RX350 got the CrossClimate2's installed this week. Given the forecast +18 C weather today ☀ and then the snow ❄ forecast in the next few days I guess we will get to test them in all conditions this week. 😂😎
I just installed CrossClimate2 on our Sorento through Discount Tire. We initially had vibrations at highway speed, and had to have it re-balanced. Due to unrelated factors, I did the re-balancing at a separate tire shop that sells only Michelin tires, and while they were able to resolve the vibrations, the shop owner told me that he refuses to sell CrossClimates because he had so many customers come back with issues. His Michelin rep routinely asks him to carry/promote CrossClimates, but he's adamant. I mentioned the high ratings on TireRack, which drew a massive eyeroll :D

Regarding the tires themselves, I like them so far. Quiet and responsive (for the category). They're a bit firmer than the OEM Michelins, but nothing crazy.
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