Where do you keep the original of your will?

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life2.0
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by life2.0 »

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FIREchief
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by FIREchief »

Average Investor wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:15 pm My attorney recommended keeping my docs in the freezer, saying it is certain they will be found when the fridge is cleaned out.
What happens if nobody is willing to start cleaning out the house because nobody has obtained the legal right to take possession of the decedent's property? This is a serious question. In some family situations, there would be a race to invade the house and clean it out. In others, due to distrust and failure to communicate, some or all heirs might refuse to obtain access to the house because it could be considered to constitute taking possession (in the absence of letters of appointment), which in some cases has potential negative legal ramifications. It would be nice if all families were functional, but unfortunately this is not always the case.
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dbr
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by dbr »

FIREchief wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:51 am
Average Investor wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:15 pm My attorney recommended keeping my docs in the freezer, saying it is certain they will be found when the fridge is cleaned out.
What happens if nobody is willing to start cleaning out the house because nobody has obtained the legal right to take possession of the decedent's property? This is a serious question. In some family situations, there would be a race to invade the house and clean it out. In others, due to distrust and failure to communicate, some or all heirs might refuse to obtain access to the house because it could be considered to constitute taking possession (in the absence of letters of appointment), which in some cases has potential negative legal ramifications. It would be nice if all families were functional, but unfortunately this is not always the case.
Indeed. The idea that the heirs, and the executor in particular, have to find the will seems bizarre.

Surely the first criterion is that the executor knows they are the executor, knows where the will is, and that there is little chance the will is somehow not there or that they can't take possession if it when they go to obtain it.

In mystery stories, especially in England, it seems like DCI Whoever is always visiting the family lawyer to find the terms of the will.

My tongue in cheek suggestions of the document stand was offered to embody these requirements. Perhaps I should have added that someone have a key to the house so they don't all get arrested for housebreaking. Sometime the neighbors are alert, crime stopping types. What would be a suggestion for someone living in a nursing home. I think I had my mother's will myself before she passed. So give the will to the executor?
NotWhoYouThink
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by NotWhoYouThink »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:08 pm
dbr wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:17 pm
Duckinator wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:15 pm Mine and DW's wills are in a fire proof box away from the garage & kitchen (likely areas of a fire), with keys in the lock. Nothing of value to a thief inside except an old pocket watch. My mom's will is in her safety deposit box but I and sis have official access to it.

Having a will in a safety deposit box with no one else having access creates difficulties.
Do you not worry that if your mother dies you actually don't have access, except that you don't tell the bank she has died? Circumstances may vary.
I'm not an expert, and I don't know about every state, but I'm not sure access to a safe deposit box is typically restricted after death. There may be some requirement to make certain documents you remove from the box available to courts, etc.
Check with your bank, most restrict access once they know that the owner, or an owner, of a box has died. No one is allowed in except the executor. How do you know who the executor is? Produce a copy of the will and show it to the banker! Hard to do if the will is in the box.

It often takes a long time to get to a will locked away in a safe deposit box, and there really is no need for it to be there.
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FIREchief
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by FIREchief »

NotWhoYouThink wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm How do you know who the executor is? Produce a copy of the will and show it to the banker! Hard to do if the will is in the box.
Unfortunately, the fact that a will "names" an executor is worth very little until the court issues letters of appointment. Up until that point, there is no executor, and thus nobody who has the legal right to take possession of the estate's assets. It's a bit of a catch 22.

Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases, I believe that families work together and get through it without complications. Unfortunately, some elderly (and really anybody with a will) and some of their heirs are totally ignorant of how it all works. I'm aware of one situation where an elderly surviving spouse engaged a lawyer to generate an estate plan, but after paying for it walked away thinking that now that they had a will, the state would have no involvement and there would be no probate. The person named in the will as executor could just sell assets, divide the proceeds and go on with life. I'll add that this individual has only one surviving adult child, who has been nominated executor, but refuses to discuss any details of the will or estate with that child. It is highly likely that the modest (if any) amount of liquid assets will all pass via TOD/POD and the poor executor (whoever that winds up being) will have no cash available to hire legal help, pay ongoing home expenses (insurance, HOA, taxes, etc.) and will very likely be challenged every step of the way by the other (largely estranged) heirs. My recommendation to this person is that they never set foot inside the house and just let the courts or whoever figure out where the will is and who is going to probate it. :annoyed
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kaudrey
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by kaudrey »

In a safe at home. Sister and dad both have copies.
dbr
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by dbr »

kaudrey wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:14 pm In a safe at home. Sister and dad both have copies.
And the combination or key to the safe?
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by kaudrey »

dbr wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:22 pm
kaudrey wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:14 pm In a safe at home. Sister and dad both have copies.
And the combination or key to the safe?
Yes, they both know where the key is.
GuyInFL
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by GuyInFL »

In Florida, a will and insurance papers can be removed by next of kin.
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rlchambers
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by rlchambers »

We have the original with the law firm that prepared the will. I also have a copy in our hutch and another in our safe deposit box. If you have yours in a safe deposit box have the executor on your signature card to open the safe deposit box. If you trust him with your assets you should trust him with your will.
I would not recommend a fire proof safe because of situation my brother in law had with his Liberty Fireproof 75 min Gun safe. The safe was in a closet in the south west corner of his house loaded with about 30 guns. Also in his safe was some old money that was tucked in a coffee can with a plastic lid. The fire started on the North East side of their house with a 30 mile per hour wind. The house was 5 miles from the nearest fire station and the temperature was 26 degrees. The spout on the fire hose was frozen when the truck arrived. The house ended up burning for several hours. The last area that was on fire was the safe area. When the safe was opened all of the guns were destroyed however the money in the coffee can with a plastic lid was not. If you have a fire proof safe I would recommend that you place it in a smaller tin box of some kind.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by FIREchief »

rlchambers wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:39 am If you have a fire proof safe I would recommend that you place it in a smaller tin box of some kind.
I believe that the fireproof safe link that I posted earlier in the thread is constructed of steel with some type of heavy coating. I'm not sure placing it inside another thin metal box would accomplish much.
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bacon4retirement
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by bacon4retirement »

Colorado13 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:54 am I keep it in a fireproof safe at home. Copies are in multiple physical and cloud locations in case the original is compromised.
Several of the the fire safes I looked into require opening safe for at least 30 minutes once every every two weeks to alleviate the risk of moisture damage. Have you had to spend much effort avoiding moisture buildup?
Last edited by bacon4retirement on Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MikeG62
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by MikeG62 »

Original in a safe at home. Both adult daughters know the combination to the safe.

Two copies in my office in the house. Lawyer who drafted also has a copy.
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GAAP
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by GAAP »

FIREchief wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:26 pm
tc101 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:46 am The only disadvantage to the fireproof box at home would be the
possibility of burglary.
I don't think this is much of a concern. These boxes only have keys for convenience, not any real security. If a person is concerned with burglary, they should just leave the keys in the box's lock. Those boxes are heavy, and no burglar is going to want to be lugging a heavy box of worthless paper out of your house. Also, unless the will is stolen the same day you die, generating a new signed original shouldn't be that big of a deal.

We've had posters in the past who have confirmed that fire fighters they know have attested to the ability of those boxes to survive significant residential fires. They tend to melt shut and have to be sawn open, but paperwork inside survives. Flash drives? Not so much.... :P

FYI - this is the type of box we're discussing:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004QWZIMI
Having had my entire house emptied by burglars, I have to disagree with this. The police told me that those folks will just take everything, and sort it out later. In my case, they even took old photographs in albums -- the police said people often hide cash in places like that.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by FIREchief »

GAAP wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 6:59 pm
FIREchief wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:26 pm
tc101 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:46 am The only disadvantage to the fireproof box at home would be the
possibility of burglary.
I don't think this is much of a concern. These boxes only have keys for convenience, not any real security. If a person is concerned with burglary, they should just leave the keys in the box's lock. Those boxes are heavy, and no burglar is going to want to be lugging a heavy box of worthless paper out of your house. Also, unless the will is stolen the same day you die, generating a new signed original shouldn't be that big of a deal.

We've had posters in the past who have confirmed that fire fighters they know have attested to the ability of those boxes to survive significant residential fires. They tend to melt shut and have to be sawn open, but paperwork inside survives. Flash drives? Not so much.... :P

FYI - this is the type of box we're discussing:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004QWZIMI
Having had my entire house emptied by burglars, I have to disagree with this. The police told me that those folks will just take everything, and sort it out later. In my case, they even took old photographs in albums -- the police said people often hide cash in places like that.
What, exactly, are you disagreeing with?? Did you see the part where I said:
Also, unless the will is stolen the same day you die, generating a new signed original shouldn't be that big of a deal.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by GAAP »

FIREchief wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:29 pm
What, exactly, are you disagreeing with?? Did you see the part where I said:
Also, unless the will is stolen the same day you die, generating a new signed original shouldn't be that big of a deal.
Sorry, lousy quoting on my part -- I disagree that they won't take the safe, so relying upon that is less than optimal.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by tc101 »

Several of the the fire safes I looked into require opening safe for at least 30 minutes once every every two weeks to alleviate the risk of moisture damage. Have you had to spend much effort avoiding moisture buildup?
No one responded to your question. I just did a google on - fire safe moisture - and got a lot of hits telling how to deal with it, so apparently it is a problem.

From one site:
Silica gel dehumidifiers are probably the best solution out there at the moment. Silica gel is a desiccant that can absorb up to 40% of its weight in water vapor. A bag of silica gel will be able to keep the relative humidity of your safe down for up to 3-4 weeks before it needs ‘recharging’.
That seems like a lot of trouble. I had planned on getting a fire proof box for my will, but now I am having second thoughts.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by FIREchief »

bacon4retirement wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:16 am
Colorado13 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:54 am I keep it in a fireproof safe at home. Copies are in multiple physical and cloud locations in case the original is compromised.
Several of the the fire safes I looked into require opening safe for at least 30 minutes once every every two weeks to alleviate the risk of moisture damage. Have you had to spend much effort avoiding moisture buildup?
I've had one for years and it has remained shut for months at a time. Where would this moisture be coming from? I place dry paper documents into the safe and close it. Unless my grandson sticks a half eaten hot dog in there, I'm just not seeing the concern. :?
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (document storage).

I also fixed a typo in the thread title "you" to "your".
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by Prudence »

I live in Maryland. After reading all these posts, it seems to me that the best approach is to file the original with the Register of Wills. I assume that if I later sign another original but fail to replace the original with the Register of Wills, the more recent original would not be valid. Correct? Additionally, if a person dies and only a copy of the will can be found, is the main risk that the will could be successfully contested, or is the main risk that the person will have deemed to have died in testate?
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by Copernicus »

bsteiner wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:58 am If the law firm has custody of the Will and it can't be found, an affidavit of someone at the law firm saying that the firm had custody of it will likely be sufficient to enable a copy of the Will to be probated. We had such a case where the drafting lawyer signed such an affidavit, and we were able to probate a copy.
bsteiner,

Thank you.
Among all the documetns we save, which documents must be presented as originals and which can be digital copies?
........ Is a list available somewhere?

We keep our Wills, Trust, POAs, and Health Care Directives - all with the attorney who prepared the documents. ......For a cost of $ 150/year for storage in a fireproof, safe location.

c
tibbitts
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by tibbitts »

NotWhoYouThink wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm
tibbitts wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:08 pm
dbr wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:17 pm
Duckinator wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:15 pm Mine and DW's wills are in a fire proof box away from the garage & kitchen (likely areas of a fire), with keys in the lock. Nothing of value to a thief inside except an old pocket watch. My mom's will is in her safety deposit box but I and sis have official access to it.

Having a will in a safety deposit box with no one else having access creates difficulties.
Do you not worry that if your mother dies you actually don't have access, except that you don't tell the bank she has died? Circumstances may vary.
I'm not an expert, and I don't know about every state, but I'm not sure access to a safe deposit box is typically restricted after death. There may be some requirement to make certain documents you remove from the box available to courts, etc.
Check with your bank, most restrict access once they know that the owner, or an owner, of a box has died. No one is allowed in except the executor. How do you know who the executor is? Produce a copy of the will and show it to the banker! Hard to do if the will is in the box.

It often takes a long time to get to a will locked away in a safe deposit box, and there really is no need for it to be there.
I did check with banks in two states where I have/had boxes: both said anybody listed on the box can access it regardless if the owner is alive or dead. From personal experience that was the case - I was able to access the box just by being on the access list. Both also said that they wouldn't know whether the owner of an account or box had died unless they were told. The advantage of having the will in a safe deposit box is that the box is small and easy to find, as opposed to my house. I've been looking for stuff for years in my 1600 sq ft. that I still can't find - and I'm the one who put that stuff wherever it is.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by hudson »

tibbitts wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:16 pm
NotWhoYouThink wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:41 pm
tibbitts wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:08 pm
dbr wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:17 pm
Duckinator wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:15 pm Mine and DW's wills are in a fire proof box away from the garage & kitchen (likely areas of a fire), with keys in the lock. Nothing of value to a thief inside except an old pocket watch. My mom's will is in her safety deposit box but I and sis have official access to it.

Having a will in a safety deposit box with no one else having access creates difficulties.
Do you not worry that if your mother dies you actually don't have access, except that you don't tell the bank she has died? Circumstances may vary.
I'm not an expert, and I don't know about every state, but I'm not sure access to a safe deposit box is typically restricted after death. There may be some requirement to make certain documents you remove from the box available to courts, etc.
Check with your bank, most restrict access once they know that the owner, or an owner, of a box has died. No one is allowed in except the executor. How do you know who the executor is? Produce a copy of the will and show it to the banker! Hard to do if the will is in the box.

It often takes a long time to get to a will locked away in a safe deposit box, and there really is no need for it to be there.
I did check with banks in two states where I have/had boxes: both said anybody listed on the box can access it regardless if the owner is alive or dead. From personal experience that was the case - I was able to access the box just by being on the access list. Both also said that they wouldn't know whether the owner of an account or box had died unless they were told. The advantage of having the will in a safe deposit box is that the box is small and easy to find, as opposed to my house. I've been looking for stuff for years in my 1600 sq ft. that I still can't find - and I'm the one who put that stuff wherever it is.
Same for my state. Those with access to the box can access it after the death of the owner. It is not sealed. No government representative needs to be present.
Bottom line: The safe deposit box works for me. My spouse and executor have access. I update them yearly on everything they need to know.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by Monsterflockster »

This is a great question.

I am the executor of my uncle's trust a my aunt is showing signs of dementia and he is worried that if he goes first her family will financially take advantage of her and ultimately she won't be taken care of. While I have signed documents as such he never told me where the will is and family lawyer is older and retiring. I feel awkward asking but it could be a big mess when the time comes.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by bsteiner »

Copernicus wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:08 pm
bsteiner wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:58 am If the law firm has custody of the Will and it can't be found, an affidavit of someone at the law firm saying that the firm had custody of it will likely be sufficient to enable a copy of the Will to be probated. We had such a case where the drafting lawyer signed such an affidavit, and we were able to probate a copy.
bsteiner,

Thank you.
Among all the documetsn we save, which documents must be presented as originals and which can be digital copies?
........ Is a list available somewhere?

We keep our Wills, Trust, POAs, and Health Care Directives - all with the attorney who prepared the documents. ......For a cost of $ 150/year for storage in a fireproof, safe location.

c
See above regarding the Will.

There's some cost to the law firm to store clients' original Wills. In addition to the cost of the space, we have to get it there, keep a record of it, and retrieve it when needed. I don't know how much it comes out to, nor do I know of anyone who's tried to calculate it.

How are they able to charge that much? Is that common in your city? Is it a well-regarded law firm?
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by dcabler »

Safety Deposit Box
A copy with my sister in another state
A copy in our fire box

Getting updated this year.

Cheers.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by Copernicus »

[/quote]

How are they able to charge that much? Is that common in your city? Is it a well-regarded law firm?
[/quote]

I dont know, but rationalizes it as the high price of real estate in our state of California.

I found the clearest comments on Originals of all estate documents below. (Not my estate attorney, stumbled on this link) -


https://dennisfordhamlaw.com/importance ... documents/

A decedent’s original will is required to commence probate. Without the original it may be difficult to impossible to probate the decedent’s estate according to the terms of the missing will. ......

Keeping the original in a bank safe deposit box is a good approach, provided someone has a key to the box or is named as a co-owner or co-signatory. With a key to the decedent’s bank deposit box and the decedent’s death certificate, the key holder, upon identification, can access the safe deposit and take possession of any original will.......

Unlike a will, a decedent’s original trust document (with amendments) is neither required to be recorded with any county nor required to be submitted to the court where the decedent resided at death. Nonetheless, it is still best to safeguard the original trust. Normally, a trust and will are kept together.

The original Power of Attorney to manage property, financial, and legal affairs must be maintained. The original is required to be presented at the proper county recorder’s office if the Agent seeks to transfer real property using the Power of Attorney. Other recipients may accept a certified copy of the original, but that process still requires presenting the original document to a notary public or a licensed attorney for co
pying and certification. ............

The Advance Health Care Directive is different. A photocopy is as good as the original!


Originals to any real property deeds that have been recorded with the county recorder’s office can be replaced by a copy of the recorded deed from the county recorder’s office.

Original bank and brokerage account statements if lost can be replaced by certified copies from the relevant institution.

Electronic copies can be used as a backup should originals be destroyed.”
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by Da5id »

tc101 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:46 am When my partner died a few years ago, the attorney who handled the estate needed the original will. Not a copy but the original. Fortunately it was in my safe deposit box, so no problem. But this raises a few questions.
Note that a non-original will (a copy) can work too, perhaps depending on the state. That is all we had for my dad at first. And the lawyer said fine, but it meant full probate. Which is slower, costs, etc. Fortunately the successor to the law firm that drew it up maybe 40 years ago still had the original on file. Once I tracked them down they sent it to my lawyer, so problem solved.

I have a copy of my will in a fireproof filing cabinet in the basement. And the lawyer who drew it up retains a copy. But could my kids find that lawyer if the house burned down and the filing cabinet were lost somehow, hmm. Good question.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of you will?

Post by mikejuss »

life2.0 wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:09 am Freezer

Double zip-lock bag... in the freezer - executor knows it's in there.

Not 100% fire proof, but it's a simple will.
This is a joke, right? I guess if it isn't, it's even funnier. :P
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by quantAndHold »

Ours is in our safe.

Mom and dad had theirs filed with the probate court in their state. In general, it was great that they could do that, and it saved some trouble, but when dad died, I went to the probate court, and they brought out a 30 year old will that wasn’t valid anymore. I had to show them the copy I had of a much more recent will, and send them back to search again. The second time, they came back with the correct will. If I hadn’t had some knowledge about his wills, it could have been messy. We had to reopen mom’s probate at the same time, and her 30 year old will had a list of executors who were all dead. We had to prove that they were all dead before the kids could get probate open. Which took several weeks and a lot of back and forth with various state agencies.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by mnsportsgeek »

On a bookshelf in my office. My lawyer recommended it be easily accessible and somewhere a family member would look if I passed.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by tibbitts »

mnsportsgeek wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:12 pm On a bookshelf in my office. My lawyer recommended it be easily accessible and somewhere a family member would look if I passed.
Hopefully you're not relying on them to look there and have told everyone exactly where to find it.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by mnsportsgeek »

tibbitts wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:19 pm
mnsportsgeek wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:12 pm On a bookshelf in my office. My lawyer recommended it be easily accessible and somewhere a family member would look if I passed.
Hopefully you're not relying on them to look there and have told everyone exactly where to find it.
My wife knows where it is. If we both pass, anyone who spend 5 minutes searching through our house will find it.
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Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by Northern Flicker »

Most banks with safety deposit boxes have a will search function. The executor shows up with deposit box key, death certificate, and identification. The bank looks for a will in the box using a double custody arrangement so an individual bank employee is not alone with the contents. If a will showing an executor with name matching the person requesting the search is found, it is given to the person, and the box is relocked.

Without the key in the executor's possession the process has extra steps.

If possible, it is helpful to just add the executor to the list of people with access, and let the executor know where the key is kept.
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Copernicus
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu May 16, 2013 4:38 pm

Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by Copernicus »

Northern Flicker wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:55 am
If possible, it is helpful to just add the executor to the list of people with access, and let the executor know where the key is kept.
Thanks for detailing the steps. Is it possible to add another person if the box is titled to our family trust?!

Thank.
Northern Flicker
Posts: 15367
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Where do you keep the original of your will?

Post by Northern Flicker »

That is up to the bank, but I've never seen a problem granting access to someone with no ownership rights to the box. I would think pointing out that the person is an executor and/or successor trustee so-named on a will and/or trust document would only help the bank to allow the access to be granted. Getting this done precludes needing to do a will search. Having the access in place also enables a family member so-granted to get durable power of attorney documents from the box.
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