Let's play chess

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

I went as far as beating Li(2000). Noam next, but it'll be very difficult.
Finridge
Posts: 1096
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:27 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Finridge »

Thank you for the resources.

The Queen's Gambit series was a triple gift to me, as I not only enjoyed the show, but it also inspired me to play chess for the first time in many years and also to read the novel, which is excellent.
rockstar
Posts: 6326
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:51 pm

Opera Game (chess)

Post by rockstar »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

Lots of commentary on this game on YouTube. However, I found this one really stick out from the bunch. You'll get a good laugh out of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP36_hLMHIc
User avatar
Topic Author
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95686
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by LadyGeek »

I merged rockstar's thread into a similar discussion. Hilarious! It's in the style of Marvin (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy) as only he can do.

Here's the actual game: Opera Game

How's everyone doing? I've slacked off a bit and haven't progressed much, but still occasionally play and have the interest to continue.
gips
Posts: 1760
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

i play everyday, rating hovering around 2100, really need to step back and study more. i enjoy the daily upload on coffee chess’ youtube channel, i can’t understand half the moves Duck makes but he is so good!
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
He was a truly phenomenal player. Too bad that his ending was about as sad as Fisher's. :(
The Sensible Steward
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
He was a truly phenomenal player. Too bad that his ending was about as sad as Fisher's. :(
I didn't study Morphy's endgames but I take your word for it.

I know Morphy was extremely tactical, preferred wide-open games. Who was great at endgames? Capablanca maybe?
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
He was a truly phenomenal player. Too bad that his ending was about as sad as Fisher's. :(
I didn't study Morphy's endgames but I take your word for it.
He was an all-around extremely strong player. Computer analyses of his games usually put him at an ELO of around 2700, similar to Alekhine, Smyslov, and Tal. But that he achieved this feat in the mid-1800s makes him all the more impressive.
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm I know Morphy was extremely tactical, preferred wide-open games. Who was great at endgames? Capablanca maybe?
Capablanca was certainly one of the best players ever, and his endgame play was arguably his strongest area. It's obviously highly debatable, but perhaps only Carlsen, Kasparov, Karpov, Smyslov, and maybe Rubinstein could have consistently held their own against Capablanca in endgames.
The Sensible Steward
Nicolas
Posts: 4923
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:41 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Nicolas »

^^^ Like Fischer, Morphy later descended into paranoia and madness. This sometimes happens to the most gifted chessplayers and mathematicians.

Morphy lapsed into a state of delusion and paranoia; he believed that he was being persecuted by his brother-in-law. His best friend Charles Maurian noted in many letters that Morphy was “deranged” and “not right mentally.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Morphy
Northern Flicker
Posts: 15360
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
He was a truly phenomenal player. Too bad that his ending was about as sad as Fisher's. :(
I didn't study Morphy's endgames but I take your word for it.

I know Morphy was extremely tactical, preferred wide-open games. Who was great at endgames? Capablanca maybe?
I think willthrill was referring to the endgames of their lives. Fischer certainly was about as strong of an endgame player as anyone.
Northern Flicker
Posts: 15360
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:09 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
He was a truly phenomenal player. Too bad that his ending was about as sad as Fisher's. :(
I didn't study Morphy's endgames but I take your word for it.
He was an all-around extremely strong player. Computer analyses of his games usually put him at an ELO of around 2700, similar to Alekhine, Smyslov, and Tal. But that he achieved this feat in the mid-1800s makes him all the more impressive.
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm I know Morphy was extremely tactical, preferred wide-open games. Who was great at endgames? Capablanca maybe?
Capablanca was certainly one of the best players ever, and his endgame play was arguably his strongest area. It's obviously highly debatable, but perhaps only Carlsen, Kasparov, Karpov, Smyslov, and maybe Rubinstein could have consistently held their own against Capablanca in endgames.
You could add Fischer, Korchnoi, Fine, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Levenfish, and Benko to the list.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:23 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:09 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:48 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:19 am I hadn't heard of the Opera game, great tactical display by Morphy :beer
He was a truly phenomenal player. Too bad that his ending was about as sad as Fisher's. :(
I didn't study Morphy's endgames but I take your word for it.
He was an all-around extremely strong player. Computer analyses of his games usually put him at an ELO of around 2700, similar to Alekhine, Smyslov, and Tal. But that he achieved this feat in the mid-1800s makes him all the more impressive.
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:58 pm I know Morphy was extremely tactical, preferred wide-open games. Who was great at endgames? Capablanca maybe?
Capablanca was certainly one of the best players ever, and his endgame play was arguably his strongest area. It's obviously highly debatable, but perhaps only Carlsen, Kasparov, Karpov, Smyslov, and maybe Rubinstein could have consistently held their own against Capablanca in endgames.
You could add Fischer, Korchnoi, Fine, Alekhine, Botvinnik, Levenfish, and Benko to the list.
No arguments with that list either.
The Sensible Steward
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Any way to export LiChess games in PGN? I had my opera game but couldn't find a way to export it.
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:58 am Any way to export LiChess games in PGN? I had my opera game but couldn't find a way to export it.
Go to the game in question, scroll down to the bottom of the page, select "FEN & PGN", and then download it.

If you want all your games in a PGN try the following: lichess.org/games/export/{username}

If you want to look at all your games at once try OpeningTree.com as it will give you a hierarchical overview. We often use OpeningTree to scout out my kids opponents games as part of preparation for tournament play.
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

To update from nine months ago, my youngest has improved from the 1500s to 1800s and my eldest from the 1700s to 2000s (Lichess ratings). A lot of their improvement probably stems from just being young kids, but there a few things I have learned about the 1500-2000 range along the way. The biggest difference between the 1500s and the 2000s is the unforced blunders tend to disappear and the tactical ability of the players improves to a point where they can calculate another move or two deeper. As far as other things I’ve learned:

Openings
Around the levels indicated above having an opening and a basic understanding of the ideas behind it (6 or 7 lines deep, not twenty) can make a 100-200 point or so difference. So, for instance if one of my children plays someone rated 100 points higher coming out with an advantage in the opening is usually enough to equalize the rating difference. But if the opponent is 200 points or more higher the opening advantage doesn't much matter as the superior tactics of the higher rated play will eventually pay off. I guess the general point is to keep one’s opening knowledge up to one’s rating and focus the majority of one’s time elsewhere. And the longer the time control the less the opening matters.

Tactics
As to tactics, at this point most players at this level seem well aware of mating patterns and the various motifs. My children seem to have their best results now by instead focusing on the thematic tactics associated from their openings. This has helped them to narrow down candidate moves and play more instinctively at quicker time controls. They use Chessable quite a bit for these tactics so they can repeat the same tactics over again via spaced repetition until they become ingrained. Their tactics come from Chessable courses, videos and most importantly from tactics that have shown up in the games they have played. Lichess puzzles also has a feature that indicates which puzzle themes you are strong at and which themes you should improve upon which has been a helpful addition.

Endgames
As to endgames, Silman’s Complete Endgame Course separates endgame theory into various rating levels allowing one to focus on just the ones that matter for one’s level. This has seemed to be quite accurate and has worked well so far. Thirty percent of the games my youngest plays tend to reach the endgame with an eval within a range of plus/minus two. Regardless of who has the winning or losing position these games are ultimately decided by whoever has better “tactical” endgame skills. The Lichess puzzles associated with rook endgames and pawn endgames have been particularly beneficial in this regard.

Players
Adults in this range tend to have really good openings, average middle games, and poor endgames. Children at this level are fairly average throughout but play much better in open, tactical play and less well in closed, positional games. Adults at this level also tend to play non-standard pet openings, are more aggressive in the opening, and often play less sound gambits. Based on the style of play and rating my children can often quickly recognise whether they are playing an adult or child and thus determine where their opponent is likely strong or weak. For instance, if their opponent plays like an adult and has a similar rating to them they will often quickly move the game towards the endgame where they will likely have an advantage. We have also found that ratings can also be skewed plus/minus 150 points or so. Some players consistently play lower rated players enhancing their online rating while others consistently play higher rated players which skews their rating downwards. This is often intentional but not always. For instance, some children play many of their games within the same club which has the tendency to make the rating for the better players overrated and the rating for the lower players underrated.

Analysis
OpeningTree.com is a great source to quickly see one’s win/loss rates against various openings. It also allows one to see what openings they most frequently encounter.

Separately, reviewing your last 20-30 games and looking to see if there are any areas that consistently impair your game also seems to work well. Most of these errors are easy to spot with an engine, however, my elder child is getting to a point where I might have to start paying a coach for this analysis as the errors are becoming less blatant and more subtle relevant to the uneducated eye.

Current Approach
Currently the main approach my children are taking is to play one game per day at the longest time control that can be fit in on that day. Then to make sure to review that game at some point shortly thereafter. Games against the computer and unrated games are largely avoided because they are inherently flawed. The computer does not reflect real human moves particularly in the endgame and unrated games are full of completely random play, unsound gambits and unnecessary resignations. We also found it best to aim for opponents who are rated around 100 points higher as this tends to yield the games with most potential for learning even if it comes at the expense of short term rating.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:51 am
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:58 am Any way to export LiChess games in PGN? I had my opera game but couldn't find a way to export it.
Go to the game in question, scroll down to the bottom of the page, select "FEN & PGN", and then download it.

If you want all your games in a PGN try the following: lichess.org/games/export/{username}

If you want to look at all your games at once try OpeningTree.com as it will give you a hierarchical overview. We often use OpeningTree to scout out my kids opponents games as part of preparation for tournament play.
Thank you. I guess I have to sign-in then? I was just playing a bunch of pickup games anonymously, will try creating an account.
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:42 am
halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:51 am
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:58 am Any way to export LiChess games in PGN? I had my opera game but couldn't find a way to export it.
Go to the game in question, scroll down to the bottom of the page, select "FEN & PGN", and then download it.

If you want all your games in a PGN try the following: lichess.org/games/export/{username}

If you want to look at all your games at once try OpeningTree.com as it will give you a hierarchical overview. We often use OpeningTree to scout out my kids opponents games as part of preparation for tournament play.
Thank you. I guess I have to sign-in then? I was just playing a bunch of pickup games anonymously, will try creating an account.
I had never really looked at how the functions worked for anonymous users. It appears though if you wish to play anonymously you still could, it is just you would need a login to download that game or any game from anyone really.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:58 am I had never really looked at how the functions worked for anonymous users. It appears though if you wish to play anonymously you still could, it is just you would need a login to download that game or any game from anyone really.
Yeah I was just playing a bunch of pickup games using "quick pairing" or w/e. You can play with someone in seconds, which is nice.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:25 am As to endgames, Silman’s Complete Endgame Course separates endgame theory into various rating levels allowing one to focus on just the ones that matter for one’s level. This has seemed to be quite accurate and has worked well so far. Thirty percent of the games my youngest plays tend to reach the endgame with an eval within a range of plus/minus two. Regardless of who has the winning or losing position these games are ultimately decided by whoever has better “tactical” endgame skills. The Lichess puzzles associated with rook endgames and pawn endgames have been particularly beneficial in this regard.
+1 to Silman's endgame book. It's fantastic. I've won or drawn many games where I certainly would have lost as a result of learning how to deal with various endgame scenarios. It's surprising how many positions are drawn if played correctly. And in my experience, most <2000 players don't know endgames well at all, at least little more than king & pawn vs. king.

My trouble is that I don't survive to the endgame as often as I'd like. :|

I've recently started playing 3-Check on Lichess and really enjoy it. For those who haven't tried it, I highly recommend that you do so. It's extremely tactical.
The Sensible Steward
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 am
halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:58 am I had never really looked at how the functions worked for anonymous users. It appears though if you wish to play anonymously you still could, it is just you would need a login to download that game or any game from anyone really.
Yeah I was just playing a bunch of pickup games using "quick pairing" or w/e. You can play with someone in seconds, which is nice.
I am curious to how the pairing for anonymous works. I am guessing they put your rating at around 1500 (default starting setting) and pair you with similar ratings where available. If this is how it works then there could be some benefit to using an account as you are more likely to get paired with someone near your actual rating and you can also set limits high and low to establish a range you want to play.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:50 am
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:11 am
halfnine wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:58 am I had never really looked at how the functions worked for anonymous users. It appears though if you wish to play anonymously you still could, it is just you would need a login to download that game or any game from anyone really.
Yeah I was just playing a bunch of pickup games using "quick pairing" or w/e. You can play with someone in seconds, which is nice.
I am curious to how the pairing for anonymous works. I am guessing they put your rating at around 1500 (default starting setting) and pair you with similar ratings where available. If this is how it works then there could be some benefit to using an account as you are more likely to get paired with someone near your actual rating and you can also set limits high and low to establish a range you want to play.
Pairing is definitely better with an account. If you play anonymously, you get very random pairings as opposed to those who are of similar strength to you. And you also can't easily track how your play strength changes.
The Sensible Steward
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

What's the easiest way to create a PGN from games? I have a couple of anonymous pickup games I played on lichess and took screenshots of moves.

I now need to enter those moves somewhere and export as PGN. I have xBoard installed but to my surprise, one of the players has to be an engine!

EDIT: I found this site, which let me enter moves and now my opera game loads on xBoard!

http://www.caissa.com/chess-tools/pgn-editor.php
lightheir
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:23 pm What's the easiest way to create a PGN from games? I have a couple of anonymous pickup games I played on lichess and took screenshots of moves.

I now need to enter those moves somewhere and export as PGN. I have xBoard installed but to my surprise, one of the players has to be an engine!

EDIT: I found this site, which let me enter moves and now my opera game loads on xBoard!

http://www.caissa.com/chess-tools/pgn-editor.php
You can direct PGN export from lichess. And replay and analyze it there with an engine as well.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

lightheir wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:44 am
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:23 pm What's the easiest way to create a PGN from games? I have a couple of anonymous pickup games I played on lichess and took screenshots of moves.

I now need to enter those moves somewhere and export as PGN. I have xBoard installed but to my surprise, one of the players has to be an engine!

EDIT: I found this site, which let me enter moves and now my opera game loads on xBoard!

http://www.caissa.com/chess-tools/pgn-editor.php
You can direct PGN export from lichess. And replay and analyze it there with an engine as well.
I couldn't find it. Unless I missed, I don't think it's available for anonymous pickup games.
lightheir
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:39 am
lightheir wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:44 am
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:23 pm What's the easiest way to create a PGN from games? I have a couple of anonymous pickup games I played on lichess and took screenshots of moves.

I now need to enter those moves somewhere and export as PGN. I have xBoard installed but to my surprise, one of the players has to be an engine!

EDIT: I found this site, which let me enter moves and now my opera game loads on xBoard!

http://www.caissa.com/chess-tools/pgn-editor.php
You can direct PGN export from lichess. And replay and analyze it there with an engine as well.
I couldn't find it. Unless I missed, I don't think it's available for anonymous pickup games.
Make an account, login, and you will be able to both play games AND view your entire game history AND engine-analyze them AND comment on them and save them.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

lightheir wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:13 am Make an account, login, and you will be able to both play games AND view your entire game history AND engine-analyze them AND comment on them and save them.
What about my ELO? Can I play rated games?
minimalistmarc
Posts: 1636
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by minimalistmarc »

I started chess a few months ago and have played every day. I’m at 800 ELO. Well done to all of you with much higher ratings, I’m very impressed. Some of my games are just embarrassing.
User avatar
JupiterJones
Posts: 3623
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:25 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Let's play chess

Post by JupiterJones »

minimalistmarc wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:56 am I started chess a few months ago and have played every day. I’m at 800 ELO. Well done to all of you with much higher ratings, I’m very impressed. Some of my games are just embarrassing.
Nothing wrong with an embarrassing game. That's where the learning happens!

You know, when you're a child, you're bad at pretty much everything, and you don't care. That's just an accepted part of the world for you. Doesn't phase you one bit.

Eventually you learn all the skills you need to live the life you create for yourself, and if you're not careful, that's that! You're mostly competent at your job, your hobbies... everything. You have, in short, forgotten what it's like to absolutely stink at something.

And that's a shame. So whether it's chess, a musical instrument, a new sport... kudos to anyone who tries something new and subjects themselves to the uncomfortable (but ultimately rewarding) feeling of stinkitude! :sharebeer
"Stay on target! Stay on target!"
lightheir
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:42 am
lightheir wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:13 am Make an account, login, and you will be able to both play games AND view your entire game history AND engine-analyze them AND comment on them and save them.
What about my ELO? Can I play rated games?
Yes it will keep a rating for you once you play logged in. It will keep the entire history of your games as well and you can analyze with and without an engine AND store the analysis there.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

lightheir wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:04 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:42 am
lightheir wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:13 am Make an account, login, and you will be able to both play games AND view your entire game history AND engine-analyze them AND comment on them and save them.
What about my ELO? Can I play rated games?
Yes it will keep a rating for you once you play logged in. It will keep the entire history of your games as well and you can analyze with and without an engine AND store the analysis there.
Sounds like a plan. It'd be nice to be able to play some folks here as well.

One thing that's infuriating about lichess is the "add clock" feature. My opponent did that to me when I'm running low on time while losing. Extending the game was not what I had in mind, but I had no control over the added clock.
minimalistmarc
Posts: 1636
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by minimalistmarc »

JupiterJones wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:29 am
minimalistmarc wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:56 am I started chess a few months ago and have played every day. I’m at 800 ELO. Well done to all of you with much higher ratings, I’m very impressed. Some of my games are just embarrassing.
Nothing wrong with an embarrassing game. That's where the learning happens!

You know, when you're a child, you're bad at pretty much everything, and you don't care. That's just an accepted part of the world for you. Doesn't phase you one bit.

Eventually you learn all the skills you need to live the life you create for yourself, and if you're not careful, that's that! You're mostly competent at your job, your hobbies... everything. You have, in short, forgotten what it's like to absolutely stink at something.

And that's a shame. So whether it's chess, a musical instrument, a new sport... kudos to anyone who tries something new and subjects themselves to the uncomfortable (but ultimately rewarding) feeling of stinkitude! :sharebeer

The embarrassing games are fun to be honest. I just won a 10 min game where I blundered 8 times (including a pointless queen loss). I’m definitely improving very slowly.

Another game I lost and when analysing it I missed checkmate in one about 3 moves in a row lol.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:14 pm One thing that's infuriating about lichess is the "add clock" feature. My opponent did that to me when I'm running low on time while losing. Extending the game was not what I had in mind, but I had no control over the added clock.
I don't recall ever having an opponent give me time, nor do I give it to others. Has that only happened once?
The Sensible Steward
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:57 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:14 pm One thing that's infuriating about lichess is the "add clock" feature. My opponent did that to me when I'm running low on time while losing. Extending the game was not what I had in mind, but I had no control over the added clock.
I don't recall ever having an opponent give me time, nor do I give it to others. Has that only happened once?
Happened multiple times. Each time you press it, the opponent gets 15 seconds...but it's unlimited, you can keep giving them more time.

While I see the intent, unforgiving clock is part of the game imo.
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 677
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

minimalistmarc wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:56 am I started chess a few months ago and have played every day. I’m at 800 ELO. Well done to all of you with much higher ratings, I’m very impressed. Some of my games are just embarrassing.
If you have time for Youtube there are some good videos that might help:

John Bartholomew "Climbing the Rating Ladder": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2huVf1l4UE
Chessbrah "Building Habits": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axRvksIZpGc
Or if you have a lot more time, the FULL videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8pZbhjL-fQ (there is a lot of content here, but you can just watch the ones appropriate for your rating level).

There is also a Daniel Narodistky speedrun video series I have seen a lot of praise for, but have not watched myself.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:01 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 5:57 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:14 pm One thing that's infuriating about lichess is the "add clock" feature. My opponent did that to me when I'm running low on time while losing. Extending the game was not what I had in mind, but I had no control over the added clock.
I don't recall ever having an opponent give me time, nor do I give it to others. Has that only happened once?
Happened multiple times. Each time you press it, the opponent gets 15 seconds...but it's unlimited, you can keep giving them more time.

While I see the intent, unforgiving clock is part of the game imo.
Giving someone extra time when they are clearly losing is definitely trolling. As far as trolling goes it is probably the least of the issues I have seen on Lichess. One can simply resign and move on. Although rated games don't typically present this particular problem. Instead take-backs, repeated draw requests, stalling, etc. are much more frequent. Personally, I don't mind the add-time feature overall. I guess some of this just comes down to perspective and whether the game is rated or casual and what kind of time control is being played. For instance, my children only have enough time typically to get in one game a day during the school year. If they are playing a game with 10 min or longer time controls giving or receiving time (within reason) in an otherwise even game tends to benefit both players. If you have invested 30-40 minutes into a game and it is resolved by a time control induced blunder it's a wasted opportunity to getting the most possible learning out of that game.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

halfnine wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 1:14 am Giving someone extra time when they are clearly losing is definitely trolling. As far as trolling goes it is probably the least of the issues I have seen on Lichess. One can simply resign and move on. Although rated games don't typically present this particular problem. Instead take-backs, repeated draw requests, stalling, etc. are much more frequent. Personally, I don't mind the add-time feature overall. I guess some of this just comes down to perspective and whether the game is rated or casual and what kind of time control is being played. For instance, my children only have enough time typically to get in one game a day during the school year. If they are playing a game with 10 min or longer time controls giving or receiving time (within reason) in an otherwise even game tends to benefit both players. If you have invested 30-40 minutes into a game and it is resolved by a time control induced blunder it's a wasted opportunity to getting the most possible learning out of that game.
I'm surprised to hear take-backs, repeated draw requests and stalling are happening in rated games... :shock:

I kind of miss good ol' Yahoo Chess, every game was rated and the gameclock was no-nonsense style.
Tom_T
Posts: 4836
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:33 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Tom_T »

Just to go down memory lane for a moment... when I was young many moons ago, I played postal chess. They sold postcards with an image of a chess board, and you had a set of ink stamps with the pieces. Stamp your move on the board, drop it in the mail. Opponent does the same, mails it back. Yes, it took a while. Things have improved since then. :)
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

This is my "opera game." The opening / middle game sucked, just happened to work out in the end.
[Event "Quick pairing"]
[Site "lichess.org"]
[Date "2021.10.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Marseille07"]
[Black "Anonymous"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteELO "?"]
[BlackELO "?"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. e3 Be6 4. b3 cxb3 5. axb3 c6 6. Bc4 Bxc4 7. bxc4 h6 8.
Qf3 a6 9. Nc3 e6 10. c5 Nf6 11. Nge2 b6 12. O-O bxc5 13. dxc5 Bxc5 14. Rd1
Qc7 15. Ne4 Nxe4 16. Qxe4 Nd7 17. Bb2 O-O 18. Qg4 g5 19. Qh5 Kh7 20. Rxd7
Qxd7 21. Bf6 Rg8 22. Ng3 Rg6 23. Ne4 Be7 24. Be5 c5 25. Rd1 Qc6 26. f3 c4 27.
Rd6 Bxd6 28. Nxg5+ Rxg5 29. Qxf7+ Rg7 30. Qxg7#
User avatar
Topic Author
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95686
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by LadyGeek »

canadianbacon wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:28 pm
minimalistmarc wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:56 am I started chess a few months ago and have played every day. I’m at 800 ELO. Well done to all of you with much higher ratings, I’m very impressed. Some of my games are just embarrassing.
If you have time for Youtube there are some good videos that might help:

John Bartholomew "Climbing the Rating Ladder": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2huVf1l4UE
Chessbrah "Building Habits": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axRvksIZpGc
Or if you have a lot more time, the FULL videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8pZbhjL-fQ (there is a lot of content here, but you can just watch the ones appropriate for your rating level).

There is also a Daniel Narodistky speedrun video series I have seen a lot of praise for, but have not watched myself.
I'm looking at those videos now. The FULL video has some interesting pointers. For example, you'll learn more by playing short games - 5 or 10 minutes.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 677
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:27 pm I'm looking at those videos now. The FULL video has some interesting pointers. For example, you'll learn more by playing short games - 5 or 10 minutes.
I find I play best at 10 minutes. I have some good games at 5 minutes and some real turkeys too.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

canadianbacon wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:04 am
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:27 pm I'm looking at those videos now. The FULL video has some interesting pointers. For example, you'll learn more by playing short games - 5 or 10 minutes.
I find I play best at 10 minutes. I have some good games at 5 minutes and some real turkeys too.
I've long gravitated toward 3/0 and 2/1 games. Different strokes...
The Sensible Steward
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Does lichess calculate ratings correctly?

I played 3 games; lost vs someone around 1500, beat someone around 1534, beat someone around 2055 and my rating has jumped from 1500? to 2065?.

This isn't quite how ELO works; jumps aren't supposed to be this big and I know I'm not 2065.
halfnine
Posts: 2421
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:48 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by halfnine »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:12 pm Does lichess calculate ratings correctly?

I played 3 games; lost vs someone around 1500, beat someone around 1534, beat someone around 2055 and my rating has jumped from 1500? to 2065?.

This isn't quite how ELO works; jumps aren't supposed to be this big and I know I'm not 2065.
The more games you play on Lichess the less your ratings will fluctuate. And, after 10-15 games your rating will stop fluctuating more than maybe +/- 20 per game. In the beginning, though, your ratings will move substantially (both over and under where it belongs) and I am assuming this is done so that you get to your real rating sooner rather than later. One of the large problems with the Elo system is the use of "K Factor" which limits the amount of gain/loss per game particularly in how it relates to juniors. Juniors tend to improve faster than they can actually play accredited games often leaving their ratings 100s of points less than their real perfromance rating. This has been exacerbated by the suspension of over the board (OTB) play over the last year and a half. And many adults are not to keen right now on risking their points by playing these underrated juniors at tournaments.

As to ratings in general, Lichess uses the Glicko 2 rating system. Chess.com I believe uses the original Glicko, and FIDE uses the ELO system. I am not sure what USCF uses. The confusing aspect for many is that the 50 percentile mark for LIchess is 1500 whereas it is 1200 for Chess.com. So for an average player their LIchess rating will be 300 points higher than someone playing on Chess.com. However, this rating descrepancy diminishes as one's level increases. By the time one gets to around 2200 in LIchess it is fairly close to 2200 in USCF, FIDE, and Chess.com. For a rough comparison of ratings see here:

https://chessgoals.com/rating-comparison/
User avatar
canadianbacon
Posts: 677
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:04 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by canadianbacon »

willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:58 pm I've long gravitated toward 3/0 and 2/1 games. Different strokes...
You're probably better or more experienced than me. I think with faster time controls you are more reliant on experience in the lines, or fast tactical ability / calculation. If I play a 2/1 game and my opponent goes into a common opening I know I have less time trouble, but if they play some coffee-shop opening with traps that forces me to think, I'm sunk. I think players of a certain level have seen most of that stuff and know how to refute it, or can figure it out more quickly than I can. The result for me is that my 2/1 games end up being mostly garbage; I can win, but only if my opponent is determined to out-blunder me.
Marseille07 wrote: I played 3 games; lost vs someone around 1500, beat someone around 1534, beat someone around 2055 and my rating has jumped from 1500? to 2065?
Your rating will jump around more at the start because there is less data so your actual ability level is not known (your rating is provisional). Your rating deviation after three games is 247.31. If you lose your next game you'll lose a lot of points. The more games you play, the less a particular result changes your rating. Think of it sort of like a binary search, it's "finding" your true talent level more quickly this way.
Bulls make money, bears make money, pigs get slaughtered.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 32250
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:17 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Let's play chess

Post by willthrill81 »

canadianbacon wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:08 am
willthrill81 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:58 pm I've long gravitated toward 3/0 and 2/1 games. Different strokes...
You're probably better or more experienced than me. I think with faster time controls you are more reliant on experience in the lines, or fast tactical ability / calculation. If I play a 2/1 game and my opponent goes into a common opening I know I have less time trouble, but if they play some coffee-shop opening with traps that forces me to think, I'm sunk. I think players of a certain level have seen most of that stuff and know how to refute it, or can figure it out more quickly than I can. The result for me is that my 2/1 games end up being mostly garbage; I can win, but only if my opponent is determined to out-blunder me.
I'm certainly not a great player. My bullet rating on Lichess is typically around 1900. It is true though that playing faster games exposes you to many positions and helps you to quickly recognize patterns, which is much of what playing chess is really all about.
The Sensible Steward
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

halfnine wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:03 am
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 11:12 pm Does lichess calculate ratings correctly?

I played 3 games; lost vs someone around 1500, beat someone around 1534, beat someone around 2055 and my rating has jumped from 1500? to 2065?.

This isn't quite how ELO works; jumps aren't supposed to be this big and I know I'm not 2065.
The more games you play on Lichess the less your ratings will fluctuate. And, after 10-15 games your rating will stop fluctuating more than maybe +/- 20 per game. In the beginning, though, your ratings will move substantially (both over and under where it belongs) and I am assuming this is done so that you get to your real rating sooner rather than later. One of the large problems with the Elo system is the use of "K Factor" which limits the amount of gain/loss per game particularly in how it relates to juniors. Juniors tend to improve faster than they can actually play accredited games often leaving their ratings 100s of points less than their real perfromance rating. This has been exacerbated by the suspension of over the board (OTB) play over the last year and a half. And many adults are not to keen right now on risking their points by playing these underrated juniors at tournaments.

As to ratings in general, Lichess uses the Glicko 2 rating system. Chess.com I believe uses the original Glicko, and FIDE uses the ELO system. I am not sure what USCF uses. The confusing aspect for many is that the 50 percentile mark for LIchess is 1500 whereas it is 1200 for Chess.com. So for an average player their LIchess rating will be 300 points higher than someone playing on Chess.com. However, this rating descrepancy diminishes as one's level increases. By the time one gets to around 2200 in LIchess it is fairly close to 2200 in USCF, FIDE, and Chess.com. For a rough comparison of ratings see here:

https://chessgoals.com/rating-comparison/
Thank you for your detailed response. I wasn't aware there are various rating systems and that Lichess uses the Glicko 2 system (which I hadn't heard of).

1500 being the baseline is also a valid observation; I noticed some players having 3100+, that's higher than Magnus Carlsen. I think the ratings at Lichess are higher than USCF / FIDE. Maybe I am a Lichess 2000 player on an inflated basis :D
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

canadianbacon wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:08 am Your rating will jump around more at the start because there is less data so your actual ability level is not known (your rating is provisional). Your rating deviation after three games is 247.31. If you lose your next game you'll lose a lot of points. The more games you play, the less a particular result changes your rating. Think of it sort of like a binary search, it's "finding" your true talent level more quickly this way.
Yeah, what was interesting though is that the opponent didn't lose 250 points or anything like that. When I was playing Yahoo Chess back in the day, the rating change was more or less symmetrical (you gain 10, the opponent loses 10 points). I am not too familiar with the Glicko 2 system.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

World Chess Championship 2021 taking place starting this month: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Che ... nship_2021

Iirc Carlsen vs Caruana was super boring, all games drawn then tiebreakers; hopefully this one will be more exciting.
minimalistmarc
Posts: 1636
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:38 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by minimalistmarc »

Reached the dizzying heights of 900 ELO yesterday. If I get to 1000 I’m going to celebrate
Post Reply