One time water issue in basement

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shunkman
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by shunkman »

This week, I had water in my finished basement for the first time in 15 years. My concern is that I live in a middle unit in a row of five townhomes. We don't have sump pumps and the downspouts go underground to a discharge point about 100 yards away. How am I going to resolve this? I don't think I can start digging up the exterior because it impacts the other townhomes. Would an interior sump pump resolve the problem and if so what is the average cost for installation?
smitcat
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by smitcat »

BashDash wrote: Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:59 am Our sump pump would need piping to it since there is no gravel under the slab.....I got quoted 6k for the job.....

Is it possible that a sump pump without piping would work as water could still make its way to the pump?

Sorry for these novice questions.....
Depends on the soil on the sides and bottom of the foundation.
We live in the NE as well and have had these issues at my fathers home on and off for 50 years.
We put in 2 sump pumps down about 30" on either corner of the higher sides in the runoff direction - they can easily go 2-6 years without any indication of water. We put the pumps in oursleves inside square clay drainage pipes from a masonary supply.
Then all of a sudden ...with weather that does not appear to be worse than some other occasions ...the pumps run for hours and days at a time.
Buy once / cry once / and eliminate the problem for good.YMMV
musicmom
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by musicmom »

I havent read the entire thread.
Just a vote for sump pump with water powered backup, if you have city water.
Ours works great and we dont have to worry if the battery in the backup is good.
folkher0
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by folkher0 »

BashDash wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:37 pm Hi all,

We have lived in a house for 9 years and have had zero water issues in the finished basement. This is in Northeast area. Have had plenty of snow, heavy rain over the years and no issues. We recently had 8 inch snow melt followed by a 2-3 inch rain storm. This did cause a water issue. Seepage on part of 2 basement walls but not on the walls. Ruined the carpet. Also, 1/4 inch of water in the utility room. It was difficult to tell where the water was coming from as using the shop vac.

At this point, I have put some extra long downspouts on the house, read the recent thread, and also had a contractor come over who suggested a multitude of options who was not trying to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. He did say to wait 2-3 months to see if we learn anything.

We have done the simple, external work that from what I have read is a big part of the problem; getting the water AWAY from the house. The question is where do we go from here. Was this the perfect storm/combo of 8 inch snow melt followed by 2-3 inch rain? We do have plans of putting in a waterproof vinyl floor (coretec?). Would a sump pump be a good insurance? There is no gravel under the slab so the sump would have to have pipes dug out to it. Lots of options to remedy but who knows if the outdoor downspout remedy will be enough. Don't want to jump to conclusions if we have literally only had 1 water problem. Thanks for any insight or experience anyone may have had. Thanks!
I’m sorry to revive an old thread but I am curious if OP made any changes after last winter and how the property fared through this weeks storms.
mancich
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by mancich »

We put in a BDry system 3 years ago. Basement has been bone dry since then, worth every penny
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

OP here!

Bone dry all spring. Multiple heavy rain storms. One inch plus. All the while doing OUTDOOR modifications to get water away from the house.

Last week. Heavy rain! No issues until the very end of storm when one plus inch per hour is occurring. Only seepage in laundry room. No damage just shop vac the water up. This was a 3+ inch storm.


This week. Ida remnant. No issues all day until again the 1+ inch per hour part of storm. Water in laundry room again but this time also seepage in living area. Shop vac water up from waterproof vinyl floor we had installed after the dry spring.

Fans going. Dehumidifier going. All dry except three small spots I see bubbles when I step on them. I'm not sure what to do. I don't know how to lift planks up.


Plan. Outdoor drainage specialist is doing a project to continue to get water away from house. Gutters. Drainage. Sealing. Still resistant to indoor french drain and sump pump because that is still letting water in the house. Seems we need a fix to drainage during HEAVY rain when our current system is overwhelmed.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

just a comment - would fixing the cracks in your foundation be the solution? You called the water coming into your basement "seepage" that implies cracks in the foundation. Don't panic... the cracks could be hairline - and most foundations have them.

The problem with cracks (even hairline) is that moisture from outside your house is getting into your house - even when it's not raining or wet. And that every time water comes thru the cracks they get a little bigger. If you have winter freezes the getting bigger will happen faster. It might take decades for the problems to really escalate.

Think of your house as a "ship" - the foundation is the hull. It needs to be waterproof or you will take on water - no matter how good your drainage.

How long was water seeping into your basement? a couple of hours? If it was just a couple of hours - you need your foundation to be water tight/proof during that critical time. If it was longer than a couple of hours - you do need better drainage as you had a lot of water pressing up against your foundation for a lot of hours before it could drain away.

Of course, my experience is with my local stock of 60 to 120 year old houses with poured concrete foundations or field stone foundations in a relatively flat landscape. My house was built on a filled in "swamp". :)

In your shoes - I'd be looking at my foundation and seeing if the cracks where the water is seeping in can be repaired. I had 6 cracks in my foundation fixed 20 years ago - a company that specializes in foundation seepage (it's a common problem here) used an inject epoxy to repair my seepage problem. No problems in 20 years - and in the past few years it's rained so much I've had standing water against my foundation (as in the yard filled up with water - my house was literally "floating" and surrounded by a giant puddle of water. I had no seepage from the fixed areas - I have a new spot - where the indoor gas meter was removed 12 years ago. :(
HomeStretch
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by HomeStretch »

BashDash wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:06 am … Plan. Outdoor drainage specialist is doing a project to continue to get water away from house. Gutters. Drainage. Sealing. Still resistant to indoor french drain and sump pump because that is still letting water in the house. Seems we need a fix to drainage during HEAVY rain when our current system is overwhelmed.
Consider larger gutters and downspouts for the area prone to water intrusion and be sure they’re clear before a big storm. But in Ida-type rain, likely even larger gutters/downspouts won’t keep up with the roof run-off. Is the exterior foundation in the problem area accessible? If yes, consider whether having the foundation excavated and waterproofed will help your issue. While it’s opened up, you might want to connect all the downspouts and any patio drains to footing drains (edit - with clean out valves) that daylight away from the house or into infiltrators.
Last edited by HomeStretch on Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

Thanks Maggie and homestretch!
folkher0
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by folkher0 »

BashDash wrote: Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:06 am OP here!

Bone dry all spring. Multiple heavy rain storms. One inch plus. All the while doing OUTDOOR modifications to get water away from the house.

Last week. Heavy rain! No issues until the very end of storm when one plus inch per hour is occurring. Only seepage in laundry room. No damage just shop vac the water up. This was a 3+ inch storm.


This week. Ida remnant. No issues all day until again the 1+ inch per hour part of storm. Water in laundry room again but this time also seepage in living area. Shop vac water up from waterproof vinyl floor we had installed after the dry spring.

Fans going. Dehumidifier going. All dry except three small spots I see bubbles when I step on them. I'm not sure what to do. I don't know how to lift planks up.


Plan. Outdoor drainage specialist is doing a project to continue to get water away from house. Gutters. Drainage. Sealing. Still resistant to indoor french drain and sump pump because that is still letting water in the house. Seems we need a fix to drainage during HEAVY rain when our current system is overwhelmed.
Thanks for the update. Sounds like you could have done a lot worse. Our house made it through ok but down the hill folks got swamped. Good luck with your projects.
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

OP again!
So I have a outdoor drainage project scheduled for next week to get water AWAY from the house. So of course, we had a 4 inch rainstorm Monday/Tuesday.

Zero Water in the basement.

The only change I made was putting a quick dam water barrier to divert water on the patio at a problem area in addition to one by the garage bordering the utility room which is a major problem area.

I'm not quite sure why we did not get water. I also had quick dams set up INSIDE to help me contain the issues and more easily shop vac.

The only things I can think of is that the ground wasn't as saturated so maybe the water table was low. ( Thats if it is ground water that is coming in). Or we didn't get HEAVY rain....Previous storms when we had .8 or 1 inch per hour that seemed to be a problem time. My weather app showed hours of .5 inch per hour for multiple hours but not higher than that. Regardless, we had 4 inches and were bone dry and I am confused.

Still going through with the drainage project as it is low hanging fruit and I got a good estimate.
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Sandtrap
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by Sandtrap »

BashDash wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:45 am OP again!
So I have a outdoor drainage project scheduled for next week to get water AWAY from the house. So of course, we had a 4 inch rainstorm Monday/Tuesday.

Zero Water in the basement.

The only change I made was putting a quick dam water barrier to divert water on the patio at a problem area in addition to one by the garage bordering the utility room which is a major problem area.

I'm not quite sure why we did not get water. I also had quick dams set up INSIDE to help me contain the issues and more easily shop vac.

The only things I can think of is that the ground wasn't as saturated so maybe the water table was low. ( Thats if it is ground water that is coming in). Or we didn't get HEAVY rain....Previous storms when we had .8 or 1 inch per hour that seemed to be a problem time. My weather app showed hours of .5 inch per hour for multiple hours but not higher than that. Regardless, we had 4 inches and were bone dry and I am confused.

Still going through with the drainage project as it is low hanging fruit and I got a good estimate.
UPDATE:
SlowMovingInvestor wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:12 am I have an (essentially) unfinished basement, which got several inches of water during a recent hurricane. A basement professional I called recommended interior drains along the sides of the basement and a Sump Pump in one corner which he said was the lowest point of the basement.

I'm not sure how he determined the lowest point of the basement (spirit level or laser maybe?). I wasn't here when it happened, but I've been told that water entered the basement around that corner during the basement flood. This area is also near the HVAC equipment, which was damaged (and replaced) in the flood.

Question:

1) Can I get just the sump pump installed now and get the interior drain work done later if needed?

If we've indeed determined the lowest point and point of water entry in the basement, then the sump pump should get rid of water when it starts accumulating. As I said, the basement is unfinished, so I'm only really concerned about HVAC equipment damage.

2) There is a storm drain under the street. The contractor proposal involved letting the sump pump outlet into the lawn, 15+ft from the house (the grade is downhill to the street, but another 100 or so feet at least. I assume that it would cost significantly more to connect to the storm drain (it is allowed by the city) without that much benefit?

3) Finally, does it make sense to try and patch up the area from which I think water came in, or would that just push the entry point of water elsewhere? Better the :twisted: you know !

Thanks
***UPDATE: RESPONSE
How can you tell if a water issue is a "water table" issue or a surface water issue?

We only have received water 4 times in 10 years. Only during 3+ inch storms. The first time I mistakenly thought it was a fluke. Tore up basement carpet and waited multiple spring storms and got nothing. Trusted this and put waterproof vinyl plank floors down then got water three more times. A very rookie mistake. Now doing french drains in the living area would involve a lot more headache.

Had a reputable landscaper come in and fix a grading issue of our patio adjacent to the house and also get all gutters far away from the house. Thursday was our first storm to test this and it did not work. When stopping by for payment ( yes I hadn't even paid yet and we got more water!) He is now convinced the chimney is not sealed properly and another roof issue was not done properly on our addition. He is encouraging calling a roofer to spend 200-300$ before spending thousands on sump pump and french drain. "Don't let water in to pump it out"

Of course when I call basement waterproofing companies it feels like I am going to a barber and asking if I need a haircut. Got one estimate so far from a reputable company but I just get that barber feeling.

I hope all this makes sense. Last water was particularly stressful with shop vac waking a four month old
***UPDATE: QUESTION (sandtrap)
To me, a sump pump is like putting better bandages on a deep gaping leaking chest arterial bleed. Rather than fixing the arterial bleed (source).

Is your basement wall a solid cement wall, poured in place and also a cement floor and the floor does not have a joint to the wall (mono pour). ???
Or does the floor have a gap or slot between the wall and the floor????
Or, is your basement wall concrete CMU blocks (masonry block wall) with or without a stucco or cement plaster face on it?????

I think, as a lst step, it's important to find where the water is coming in. No matter what it takes, find the crack or slot where it is oozing out.
Now, since the leak is intermittent, this can take some time but is definitely something you can do yourself over time without cost.

Your instincts are correct; if you call a roofer to look then he will say you need roofing fixes, same for every other contractor.

I would think that if your leak is at "shop vac" level, then it might be pretty easy to find the source or sources.

Look at:

Joint between basement wall and basement floor, along the bottom of the wall where it meets the floor. Follow that line everywhere as the source may not be exactly where the deepest and most water is. Especially because you have flooring down.

If there is or are particular walls where this is happening and nowhere else, then you need to look at the inside cement surface of that wall to look for;
joint cracks in the CMU grout lines, if it is cement block
pour cracks or fissures (they can be big), where the cement pour was not done correctly if it's a solid cement wall poured in place with plywood or osb forms. You can tell if you see large dimple or pimples in a pattern where the snap off form wires were put in. Also the joints will show where the forms were.
intrusions or penetrations such as where a well water line comes through the wall, or vent pipe, etc, goes from inside to outside.

If the leaks are on the uphill side of the house then this is a bit of a no brainer and you can pinpoint it faster.

I would do all this trouble shooting on your own if you can as it doesn't cost much except for your time, maybe a crowbar, flat pry bar, hammer, drywall hand saw, drywall trim saw (looks like a jagged knife, utility knife (stanley metal one), big plastic rubbish can, and thick contractor garbage bags.

I know it seems destructive and costly to cut a square hole in drywall to "take a look", or pry up a baseboard or flooring along the floor to wall line, or flip up carpet and lay it back to dry and leave it to look the next time it rains, but, it's a good path.

As far as opening up 14" x 25" rectangular cuts in drywall between the studs, consider it the easiest thing to do and repair, and most definitive (i see it) way to check things. You can also cut nearest the floor line to look at that level for water intrusion.

When you remove things, try to be careful so you can put it back later, but, do also realize that it might be sacrificial as part of the project. IE: new flooring, etc.

I hope this helps.
j :D
***UPDATE: RESPONSE
.it is a concrete floor with concrete blocks as walls. The entire house is actually concrete block including the upstairs....

I have seen EXACTLY where the water comes in the laundry room. In fact ironically I saw the first drop two storms ago! I will email you some pictures I have. Water always seeps from where floor meets wall in laundry room and separately it appears that way in the living area.
This is great that you have the leaks pinpointed.
The fact that your basement walls are CMU explains a lot.
Now, there are 2 ways that a CMU will be installed with a solid cement basement floor.
1. The basement and home CMU cement blocks are laid on their own footing, in better state codes, horizontal steel every other course (sometimes every 3rd) for load bearing, and every other vertical cell and grouted full. But, in some "cost cutting" areas, there's less steel reinf. and less grouting. (terrible).
Then, the cement slab is poured after that.
2. The cement slab "floor" is poured along with the perimeter and interior load bearing footings all at once, with "dowels up" every other course for the CMU blocks. Then the CMU walls are installed on that.

Areas of potential leaks are:
1. If lateral load bearing, then cracks and grout failure on the CMU walls, especially on the uphill side or where there is a lot of water, and lateral load (sideways) against the wall.
2. #1 plus spalding failure, where the steel reinforcemtn is rusting and pushing out, where concrete wire on the courses rust and make the grout fail, etc.
3. Check interior walls for heavy effervecense (crusting, bubbling, white salt appearance, moisture and mold, etc.
4. Check interior walls for grout failure and leaking.
5. If the leak is where the CMU wall meets the floor, "and not higher" (be really sure about this), then the failure is either:
a) moisture gets "into" the wall cells and builds up water at the base, then get's into the floor.
b) and/or moisture gets into the exterior CMU to floor joint, then gets in.
c) If the floor was poured after the CMU walls were installed, then there's a joint between the floor and the wall and there's water intrusion coming "up" from that joint.

*** Note: I have been repeatedly called to troubleshoot and fix a leak in a downstairs apartment where there were CMU block walls and cement floor. The water intrusion ended up being the top cap and flashing on the parapet wall on the roof. This is the CMU wall that is continuous from the ground to the roof and is one wall of the apartment and the one above it. In this case, the cells filled up and water made its way to the bottom.
Lesson: do look carefully.

I hope this helps find the leak sources.
j :D
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

Sandtrap,
Thank you so much for the detailed response! I am feeling very overwhelmed by this! I will reread!
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BashDash
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Basement water specialist in NYC tri state area?

Post by BashDash »

[Thread merged into here --admin LadyGeek]

Hi all! I'm sure you have seen my basement thread. I am on a wild goose chase to solve this. I'm feeling inept even with Sandtraps generous humble advice. I've called some waterproofing companies only to feel like I am asking a barber if I need a haircut. Can anyone recommend a honest reliable source to look at this? I'm about forty minutes outside of NYC. I'm humbly appreciate all the help on this board. Feel free to message me.
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LadyGeek
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by LadyGeek »

BashDash - In order to provide appropriate advice, it's best to keep all the information in one spot. I merged your update back into the original thread.
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

Thanks!
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

OP here.

Update: First major storm since we had one sump pump and french drain installed around the entire perimeter of the basement. I had many many waterproofing companies come out with there sales pitch. A few companies suggested just a sump pump. Others recommended a sump pump and a partial french drain. I had no references. Finally I got a reference and the contractor gave me a lot of confidence instead of a sales pitch. He was on scene the entire time and completed the job in 2 days. To be honest, out of habit I was still nervous about the upcoming rain outside of NYC.

Result: no water !

Unfortunately, I don't know if the french drain was working during the storm but this morning the pump was running even when it was not raining anymore. I do wish I had been able to check if the french drain was feeding into the pump during the height of the storm around the hours of 1-3AM.
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LadyGeek
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by LadyGeek »

I have a french drain / sump pump combination. It takes time for the rain to sink into the ground, perhaps 1/2 hour to 1 hour or so depending on the intensity and your property situation.

Likewise, it takes time for the pump to drain empty from your ground water. The delay is perfectly normal.

I've had heavy rain storms which continually filled the sump pump in less than a minute. Works fine.
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BashDash
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Re: One time water issue in basement

Post by BashDash »

Thanks for the info LadyGeek!
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