Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

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galawdawg
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by galawdawg »

Why did I just notice that OP started this thread eight (8) months ago and it somehow, without OP's help, became active again? :oops:
CedarWaxWing
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by CedarWaxWing »

8foot7 wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:01 am My rule of thumb is if someone is messing around with plumbing (the actual lines, not just replacing a toilet or sink) or electrical (not just changing a fixture but running new lines, adding boxes, etc) I would get a permit. If things are mostly cosmetic, like countertops or backsplashes, then it’s my house and my business.

A potential buyer who asks for years of permits is a buyer who will more than likely cause other problems in your transaction.
Where I live permits and their steps of approvals/signoffs can be verified online without so much as mentioning it to the owner.

M
28fe6
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by 28fe6 »

What I don't understand about this, being completely 100% ignorant about big home improvements, is how do you actually apply for a permit, like what is the physical process. I guess this is the millenial in my showing but is there a website you go to? Is there a government office you go to and how do you find out where it is and how to do it?

For as important as permit seem to be, there sure isn't much advertising around how to actually follow the process.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

I am looking into remodeling my bathroom, a medium size bathroom, about 8 ft long and 7 ft wide. The work involved includes retiling the walls, possibly redoing the floor, changing the piping to the shower / sink and replacing a light fixture. The general contractor quoted me a bid of about $10K-$15k.
::swoon:: Relatives just redid a DIY bathroom remodel - total tear out - final cost 4K - replacing the toilet, vanity/sink and removing a tub/shower which was replaced with a tiled shower stall. Also put in new flooring. No need for any permits (to the best of my knowledge.) None of the original plumbing was moved. And there's no need for permits to move the location of light fixture or outlet. It took 2 weeks to complete with most of the heavy lifting done on the weekends - lite lifting (and the initial tear out) done on a week night (nothing like hauling bags of stuff out of the house at night to make the neighbors "wonder" :) ). Did contract/pay for one of those new fangled "big bag" dumpsters to haul away all the debris (the toilet and sink/vanity and light fixture got recycled to a friend's recently purchased "cabin in the woods" ) My relatives know the building codes and have done this stuff before. There's the difference I guess. I can see where the labor would account for the other 6-11K would go.

If your city requires permits - have the contractor pull the permits. If the GC isn't familiar with your city's permiting/inspection process - you should find out when the inspector needs to be called to inspect (how long of wait there is). And make the GC knows this. You may have to have the inspector come out several times as the "layers" of work are done. If you do things out of order it takes longer/more hoops to jump thru with the city inspectors.

Having the permits pulled - becomes part of the "public record" anyone researching your house will see the permits. They won't be able to tell which (of your bathrooms got remodeled or what quality of products you used) just that a bathroom got remodeled and passed inspection.
Broken Man 1999
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

28fe6 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:03 pm What I don't understand about this, being completely 100% ignorant about big home improvements, is how do you actually apply for a permit, like what is the physical process. I guess this is the millenial in my showing but is there a website you go to? Is there a government office you go to and how do you find out where it is and how to do it?

For as important as permit seem to be, there sure isn't much advertising around how to actually follow the process.
We just pulled a permit for our fence replacement, the fence company wanted $250 to provide the permit. Obviously they felt their time would be better spent doing other tasks, rather than pulling permits.

I completed the permit application all online, printed it, and DW dropped it off. Next day picked up approved permit. Cost of permit was $75, by the time it was larded up with various fees, the total cost was $89.50. So, we saved $160.50 by doing the application and legwork.

Originally the fence company said we didn't need a survey, but that turned out to be an error. They absorbed the cost of the survey, and so now we have a copy of a recent survey for ourselves.

The new fence is a replacement being erected on the same line as the old fence, tying into our neighbors on both sides existing fence.

I would hope other code enforcement groups at cities/counties/municipalities would allow homeowners to pull permits using online applications like ours.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go." - Mark Twain
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ResearchMed
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by ResearchMed »

seawolf21 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:41 pm Also if you sell, the purchaser might notice new bathroom but no permit on file and use that as an negotiating tactic.....
Or worse, walk away, having tied things up for the time needed for inspection to be scheduled and then decision to be given to you.

And I'm not at all sure whether *knowing* that there was unpermitted work done is something that needs to be disclosed. You can't claim you didn't know, as with something like radon in the basement if you never tested for it, etc.

And perhaps worst case, something goes wrong and work needs to be re-done, perhaps including walls to gain access to pipes or electric, or ... not sure if this could happen, but is there any chance that if there were to be a fire there, the insurer could deny any claim?
(Yes, I'm a worrier. But doing things 'right' doesn't always cost much extra, but does help us SWAN - Sleep Well At Night.)

Why are you seriously considering not getting the permit(s) and having things done 'right'?
You can still go cheap or fancy, as you wish, choosing finishes, etc., accordingly.

RM
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LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

28fe6 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:03 pm What I don't understand about this, being completely 100% ignorant about big home improvements, is how do you actually apply for a permit, like what is the physical process. I guess this is the millenial in my showing but is there a website you go to? Is there a government office you go to and how do you find out where it is and how to do it?

For as important as permit seem to be, there sure isn't much advertising around how to actually follow the process.
I live in an older suburb (houses are 1880's thru 1960's) It's densely populated area - 50K residents in a 4 sq mile suburb surrounded by other suburbs.

IT's typically a contractor who goes and gets the permit. They go to City Hall to the Permit department and fill out a form OR one of the clerks there takes the info an keys it in to the permitting system. The contractor then pays for the permit (so of them have "accounts" and they pay later).
The thing about my city's permits is you need to have a Licensed Bonded (insurer) contractor doing the work the permit is for. I can't pull a permit for my "bathroom remodel" and have my siblings names as the one's doing the work. So, generally, it's the contractor doing the work who will get the permit because THEIR company/name will be on the permit.

Lots of DIY stuff gets done without a permit and without inspections. The City combats this by not selling transfer stamps when a property is sold until the property has been inspected and either passes inspection or there is a plan to have it fixed and re-inspected by the seller (sometimes the buyer - if City Hall knows your face or your alderman vouches for you.) So, if you are selling a property you can't close on the property until it's passed a city inspection. This is different than the house inspection you or your buyer paid for. And the City Inspection may find code violations that your house inspector did not. :)

In general, you don't want to piss off the people doing/making the bureaucracy work (the permit givers, the city inspectors, etc...) I've worked with my local "bureaucracy" multiple times (and while I think some of it is down right stupid and some of the things I've had to do to be "code" are a waste of money) it's usually people just doing their job and the codes/rules are generally for the Greater Good of everyone in my City.

Not sure how it works in smaller places.
LittleMaggieMae
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

Pulling a permit and having work inspected doesn't always save you from shoddy work or shoddy materials or the cheapest easiest least durable way to have the work done. Who one contracts to do the work is more important.

I have seen plenty of shoddy work done to rehabbed houses - it all passed code - but everything was done the least expensive way and the least durable way. (I still laugh about the 500K rehabbed house across the alley- with only the whole house main water shut off. That's gonna be exciting when the home owner needs to replace a faucet or the water heater or put in a new washing machine or wants to replace a toilet.. you get the idea. hee hee hee. )
barnaclebob
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by barnaclebob »

celia wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:48 pm
ConcreteMan wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:31 pm Has anyone done a bathroom remodel without pulling a permit? I'm not concerned about the price of the actual permit, rather the impact this will have on my property taxes.
The main advantage of having a permit, is that there will be inspections to confirm the work is up to code. If something is wrong, the contractor will have to fix it at his own expense.
Inspectors inspect very little and they certainly dont make sure work is up to code in many cases. Ive seen many first hand instances of inspectors being wrong or missing things.
rebellovw
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by rebellovw »

LittleMaggieMae wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:37 pm Pulling a permit and having work inspected doesn't always save you from shoddy work or shoddy materials or the cheapest easiest least durable way to have the work done. Who one contracts to do the work is more important.

I have seen plenty of shoddy work done to rehabbed houses - it all passed code - but everything was done the least expensive way and the least durable way. (I still laugh about the 500K rehabbed house across the alley- with only the whole house main water shut off. That's gonna be exciting when the home owner needs to replace a faucet or the water heater or put in a new washing machine or wants to replace a toilet.. you get the idea. hee hee hee. )
Agreed - I just replaced the sewer line an a house that was built in 2007 - the permit inspection person has no clue. The PVC line wasn't even attached to the city PVC - it was just sitting in the elbow loose. I couldn't believe the city would sign off on the issues encountered (many bellies where the line dipped - even on the city portion.)

I've now replaced it - four permits to do so - the plumber is who I have my faith in.

They just come out and click a button - they don't do much - in fact they are very clueless from my experience - I almost took the head off an inspector for not knowing what he was there for - thank goodness I was able to get ahold of my plumber to explain it to him -- then he said "ahh Ok - you are approved."
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F150HD
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by F150HD »

if it were simply cosmetic (paint/tile) I may not worry but changing the piping to the shower / sink (to me) is a heftier bite worth thinking about esp if venting is not done correctly.
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celia
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Re: Bathroom Remodel without Permit?

Post by celia »

barnaclebob wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:41 pm
celia wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:48 pm
ConcreteMan wrote: Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:31 pm Has anyone done a bathroom remodel without pulling a permit? I'm not concerned about the price of the actual permit, rather the impact this will have on my property taxes.
The main advantage of having a permit, is that there will be inspections to confirm the work is up to code. If something is wrong, the contractor will have to fix it at his own expense.
Inspectors inspect very little and they certainly dont make sure work is up to code in many cases. Ive seen many first hand instances of inspectors being wrong or missing things.
Well, I guess we live in different cities. Good to know that our inspectors are doing a good job. Some things are quite important to check in California, with the always-present risk of earthquakes. (Our exterior walls and under the house are reinforced against shear forces more than is required by the building code.)
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