PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

tortoise84 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:19 am I posted my build with pictures here: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/cGykcf
...
Nice. Seeing this in pictures puts everything in perspective, thanks.

I assume the last picture (right-most) is what you ended up with? The top-rear case fan in the first 2 photos show a close-fit against the rear exhaust fan. The right-most picture shows a smaller fan. Consider clarifying your description that you swapped it out (last picture).
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

The last picture was just to show that a 38 mm thick radiator and 25 mm fan can just fit in the top of a Cooler Master NR400 case. I added a green circle to the picture to point it out. It's not my final configuration, which is the GPU 240 x 27 mm radiator in the top and the Arctic 120 x 38 mm CPU radiator in the rear.

A lot of cases don't have enough clearance above the motherboard, or enough offset away from it towards the side panel of the case, so a radiator and fans totaling 27 + 25 = 52 mm thickness could run into the RAM or VRM heatsinks along the top of the motherboard.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

OK, that helps. It's not apparent that your paragraph starting with "Cooler Master NR400 MicroATX case:" refers to the last picture. Could you please add what you just stated that to the description?

(Why I'm focusing on this - If I'm missing a few points, so are others.

It's important to communicate effectively. This is why we ask for a consensus of opinions when we update the wiki. It ensures not only that (1) the content is correct, but that (2) everyone understands the material.)
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.

In my first build (Ryzen 7 3700X), the mouse was acting intermittently and I chalked it up to a mousepad. The problem was slightly annoying and never went away.

I just spent the past few days with the same thing, but happening more frequently. It's now very annoying. Out of frustration, I googled the problem and hit a gold mine. After some research, Google "amd x570/b550 usb mouse lag disconnected".

Here's an explanation: AMD Offers Tips to Mitigate USB Disconnect Problems on B550, X570 Motherboards, March 8, 2021.

Since then, the motherboard manufacturers have updated their BIOS. Look for updates which address USB connectivity and AGESA (Infinity fabric). The Asus X570 TUF Gaming motherboard addressed USB stability in their 2021/03/22 update (Version 3603), AGESA patches are on-going. The latest BIOS 2021/08/17 (Version 4021) is yet another AGESA patch.

Both of my build BIOS' are already up-to-date. My earlier build is now running Linux (dual boot Win 10). So far, I haven't seen any significant concerns.

There are a number of posts on reddit saying that the problem still exists and I would believe that. The posts also suggest a connection with NVidia RTX cards. That's what I have (NVidia GeForce RTX 3060 ti).

My current build (Ryzen 7 5800X) is giving me enough grief to want this fixed. I tried forcing my PCIe settings to Gen 3.0, but that didn't work. Neither did removing all of the hidden devices shown in Device Manager.

(Hidden devices are unused components that are still in the registry. It can cause problems and is why you should prefer to do clean installs vs. moving an existing drive from one PC to another. I removed all the hidden devices in the USB controllers, storage controllers, and Processors. It didn't help.)

I did find, however, that you can bypass the problem entirely by getting a PCIe to USB 3.0 card. Connect to your mouse and keyboard via PCIe instead of the USB controller. A cheap solution to a problem that's inherent in this design. Somewhere.

I just ordered a cheap card from Newegg: Rosewill RC-508 USB 3.0 PCI-E Express Card with 4 USB 3.0 Ports, Speed Up to 5.0 Gbps It's cheaper than the shipping cost if I had to return my motherboard, which I'm not about to do it unless it totally fails.

There's not much room to put the card, as I'm concerned about air flow around the GPU. It's better to place the card in the small PCIe slot above the GPU vs. below it where the intake fans are.

Problems like this will definitely push me towards Intel for the next build.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
Tamales
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:47 am

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Tamales »

I should have never opened this thread. Now I have the bug to build a new system, and the black friday timeframe is usually a good time to do that. Normally I've built with CPUs that have been out for at least 6-12 months, but given the early tests on the Intel 12th gen I'm thinking of building a Core i5-12600K system. But since those CPUs aren't officially released until tomorrow I think, is it generally a good idea to wait a couple-few months after a new CPU release so that motherboards can get the bugs worked out? I've gone through phases of preferring Asus, Gigabye, and MSI motherboards, currently leaning toward the MSI.

It may turn out that other parts shortages or inflated prices will push it out a couple-few months anyway. Even cases (or at least the ones I've looked at) seem to be in short supply. Also, why is it so hard to find cases with 1-2 5.25" drive bays in the front panel? Seems like 80%+ of cases have no 5.25 drive bays.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Problems like this will definitely push me towards Intel for the next build.
I'm glad you are debugging the AMD chipset CPU issues for the rest of us. I'm watching from the sidelines as I'm still considering being a Ryzen 5000 series with X570 chipset.

When it comes to this problem, doesn't the motherboard still have USB 2.0 ports ? Either on the backplate, or as internal headers ?
If so, you might want to try hooking up your keyboard and mouse to them. They are low-speed devices and should run fine at USB 2.0 speeds. They will likely go through a different set of drivers, and behave differently.

In 3 decades of building PCs, I have seen my share of bugs. I have used Intel, AMD, Cyrix, Nexgen, and chipsets and motherboard from many manufacturers. Currently, I have 3 Intel boxes. One is 5th Gen, the other two 6th gen. And one AMD Ryzen 2nd gen.
There have been bugs with all of them. I don't think AMD or Intel chipset drivers are worse or better, overall.

One of the weirdest hardware bugs I ever ran into was with my current MSI X99-A motherboard, Intel X99A chipset based. The machine just couldn't go to sleep. More accurately, it went to sleep, but immediately woke back up. POWERCFG /LASTWAKE was not informative and did not point to any device that triggered the wakeup. I disable the "Allow device to wake up this computer" feature of every device that had the tab. I removed every single PCIe card except the GPU, unplugged every USB cable attached to the case except the KVM switch for keyboard/mouse, disconnected every SATA SSD, HDD and optical drive, except the boot drive. Network cable off too, of course. Did a fresh OS install on a temporary SSD, with just motherboard and GPU manufacturer drivers. Nothing worked. The computer suffered from severe insomnia, and wouldn't stay asleep. Finally, I noticed there was still a USB 3.0 hub/card reader plugged into the USB 3.0 internal header of the motherboard. I couldn't imagine why that drive/hub would have anything to do with causing the computer to not sleep. The BIOS was setup not to allow wakeup from USB devices, also. But I had not disconnected the drive from the USB 3.0 internal header. Sure enough, after I did, the computer went back to sleep like a baby, and stayed asleep. The card reader/hub had gone bad after many years, and was somehow causing the problem. I bought another one, and the issue has never been back. I'm still typing this on the PC with that same mobo.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Tamales wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:01 pm I should have never opened this thread. Now I have the bug to build a new system, and the black friday timeframe is usually a good time to do that.
Yes, usually Black Friday is a great time for a PC build. Last year was the first year that it wasn't, due to the GPU shortage. It looks like this year will be the same, unfortunately. Your best bet would be to buy a CPU with a built-in GPU, like the non-f Intel chips, or the AMD APUs. Or reuse your old GPU.
Normally I've built with CPUs that have been out for at least 6-12 months, but given the early tests on the Intel 12th gen I'm thinking of building a Core i5-12600K system. But since those CPUs aren't officially released until tomorrow I think, is it generally a good idea to wait a couple-few months after a new CPU release so that motherboards can get the bugs worked out?
I would say yes. I'm waiting for some price drops to start on AMD parts after the Intel announcement. I hope they happen.
Rumors are that the new Intel miss the mark on power efficiency vs AMD chips. Not something you hear often. I had AMD FX series that were pretty power hungry.
I've gone through phases of preferring Asus, Gigabye, and MSI motherboards, currently leaning toward the MSI.
I used to swear by Gigabyte motherboards in the 2000s, until around 2015 when I started using Intel. The MSI X99A I have on my main desktop is the first MSI board I have. It's had more weird problems than most boards I owned. The other 3 boxes all have Asus motherboards. I think Asus is one of the best with BIOS/firmware updates. Certainly better than MSI and Gigabyte were in the past.
Also, why is it so hard to find cases with 1-2 5.25" drive bays in the front panel? Seems like 80%+ of cases have no 5.25 drive bays.
Because nowadays, cases seem to be all about form over function. Modern cases seem to be all about fancy RGB lights, and fans for the very largest GPUs. Forget about having front bay space for an optical drive, drive hotswap bay, card reader, etc. I could have said floppy or tape drive, but I have those outside my case in USB and SCSI enclosures.

Not sure what form factor you are looking at. For me ATX motherboards are still king. If I had to buy a new case because my existing HAF series fell apart, I would buy this :
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16811147053?quicklink=true

Maybe I should hoard it and buy one as a spare. The power button on the HAF-XM for my NAS actually has failed. I am using the reset button as power switch instead. Power LED still working. No urgency to replace the 9 year old case, though.
HAF 932 advanced is still flawless.
Last edited by madbrain on Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Problems like this will definitely push me towards Intel for the next build.
My NAS uses an Asus Z170-AR motherboard, with an i5-6600k CPU, and 4x32GB Patriot DDR4-3000.
The CPU is OC to 4.4 GHz. The highest the RAM can successfully run at is 2933, I think.

Very weird things happen on that NAS with the keyboard, which is connected through an Iogear GCS1104 KVM switch.
Annoying things like randomly repeating characters for an entire line while typing. Same happened in either Linux or Windows.
None of the other 3 PCs on the same KVM switch experienced anything like this issue.
It took me a long type to find a solution. The fix ? Running the RAM on that NAS at 2400 MHz or slower speed.
Every single program ran perfectly fine at higher speeds, including tough OC benchmarks like Prime95. Only local keyboard entry was a problem. I ran memtest86 on the RAM, and it was fine, also.

I don't recall if I tried to hookup the KVM through every single USB controller on that mobo. There are 2.0 ports, 3.0 ports, and 3.1 Gen2 ports. Just checked, and the KVM is hooked up to the 2.0 ports. I probably tried the others too.
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections?
I have never had any problems with my ASRock B550M Pro4. Maybe it's because I use the USB 2.0 ports for my keyboard and mouse. The last paragraph of this article suggests trying USB 2.0:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/3 ... arly-april
One last tidbit several readers communicated to us: If none of the above work, you can also try switching to bog-standard USB 2.0 ports, if you have any available. This option appears to have worked for some folks when other fixes did not.
If you don't have any USB 2.0 ports, you can add some that plug into your motherboard's internal headers:
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Por ... 00015Y0FK/
User avatar
kevinf
Posts: 848
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by kevinf »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.
No issues for me (X570 + Ryzen 5600X), and it's something I'd notice right away if it were happening.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:15 pm I'm glad you are debugging the AMD chipset CPU issues for the rest of us.
Thanks! With all the help I've received from everyone, It's the least I could do. :)
tortoise84 wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:08 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections?
I have never had any problems with my ASRock B550M Pro4. Maybe it's because I use the USB 2.0 ports for my keyboard and mouse. The last paragraph of this article suggests trying USB 2.0:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/3 ... arly-april
One last tidbit several readers communicated to us: If none of the above work, you can also try switching to bog-standard USB 2.0 ports, if you have any available. This option appears to have worked for some folks when other fixes did not.
If you don't have any USB 2.0 ports, you can add some that plug into your motherboard's internal headers:
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Por ... 00015Y0FK/
My Asus TUF Gaming motherboard has an internal USB 2.0 header, but it didn't come with the expansion slot adapter. Since the PCIe card was "only" $10 more, I just went with it.

The article stated that "some" readers fixed their problem going with USB 2.0. Since I really don't know how that is implemented in the motherboard, PCIe bypasses the problem entirely.

I'm also wondering if the USB keyboard is also impacted, which points to the USB controller. While I was typing last night's post, the keyboard simply stopped in the middle of its tracks. Several times. Hitting 'esc' or perhaps simply waiting brought the keyboard and mouse back.

Debugging intermittent problems is difficult at best. I'm still wondering about the comments I saw implying that this problem only exists with RTX cards (NVidia GeFore RTX). I may have hit the magic combination here.

Google reddit for "USB even with the latest BIOS fix seems to still be fundamentally broken." (I'm not linking due to language found in the comments.) The posts were before the latest BIOS fixes were released, but it's a good hint on root cause.

No clue why a PCIe card would cause this type of problem, but a timing issue with one interface can certainly propagate through the architecture. Hence, USB is broken. Perhaps NVidia pushed things a bit on their side of the fence, hard to say.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
Peculiar_Investor
Site Admin
Posts: 2445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:23 am
Location: Calgary, AB 🇨🇦
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.
Another data point, no problems whatsoever with my Gigabyte X570 AORUS ELITE and multiple USB devices being used included Logitech USB receiver for keyboard and mouse. I generally keep my BIOS and chipset drivers updated (checking monthly).

As posted earlier, I'm using the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 SUPER video card. This was a new build and new OS installation.
Normal people… believe that if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Engineers believe that if it ain’t broke, it doesn’t have enough features yet. – Scott Adams
Tamales
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:47 am

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Tamales »

madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:39 pm Your best bet would be to buy a CPU with a built-in GPU, like the non-f Intel chips, or the AMD APUs. Or reuse your old GPU.

Thanks for the feedback, madbrain. I don't do any gaming at all (I have intentionally avoided it since it seems too easy to get addicted to it) so the built-in graphics should be fine, unless I need a video card upgrade solely for display support reasons).

Rumors are that the new Intel miss the mark on power efficiency vs AMD chips. Not something you hear often. I had AMD FX series that were pretty power hungry.

Given the power consumption of separate graphics cards in desktop computers dwarfs the CPU (maybe the monitor(s) too), I don't get that comparison. At least, not as a purchase decision point. If you're talking about a laptop, the considerations are different, but I wouldn't expect that people using laptops for gaming are as sensitive to power consumption as business laptop users. In any case, I'd be building a desktop so it's not a purchase consideration.

Because nowadays, cases seem to be all about form over function. Modern cases seem to be all about fancy RGB lights, and fans for the very largest GPUs. Forget about having front bay space for an optical drive, drive hotswap bay, card reader, etc. I could have said floppy or tape drive, but I have those outside my case in USB and SCSI enclosures.

...not to mention a 5.25" form factor panel with additional USB or other connectivity options on the front panel, as well as power and airflow meters and other things. Quite a lot of useful things can go into a 5.25" slot. Maybe it's a generational thing, because I just don't get the PC case being a dynamic light show display first, and functionality is an afterthought.

Not sure what form factor you are looking at. For me ATX motherboards are still king. If I had to buy a new case because my existing HAF series fell apart, I would buy this :
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16811147053?quicklink=true

I did come across that one in my search. I do think there's probably value in having an airflow path from at least 50-60% of the front face, through to the back. A couple other case brands I found that have at least 1-2 front panel 5.25" slots are Silverstone, Phanteks, Fractal Design, and Corsair, but stock is pretty spotty (is there a sheet steel shortage too?).
sycamore
Posts: 6360
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by sycamore »

madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:15 pm ...Finally, I noticed there was still a USB 3.0 hub/card reader plugged into the USB 3.0 internal header of the motherboard. I couldn't imagine why that drive/hub would have anything to do with causing the computer to not sleep...
It's always in the last place you look, isn't it? :-)

Good debugging story, thanks for sharing.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

sycamore wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:23 am
madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:15 pm ...Finally, I noticed there was still a USB 3.0 hub/card reader plugged into the USB 3.0 internal header of the motherboard. I couldn't imagine why that drive/hub would have anything to do with causing the computer to not sleep...
It's always in the last place you look, isn't it? :-)
Well if you keep searching after you find the root cause, you wouldn't be so bright. :D
Topic Author
Independent George
Posts: 1592
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.
I had lag issues (B550 mobo), but I chalked that up to signal interference since it only happened when I was using multiple wireless devices in close proximity (three wireless mice plus one wireless keyboard). I now use a single bluetooth mouse & keyboard with a USB dongle in my desktop (switching between computers as needed), and haven't had any issues since.

The only downside is that I can't enter BIOS with the bluetooth keyboard (since I'm connecting with a dongle, the drivers aren't native to the motherboard), so I keep cheapo Dell USB keyboard on hand for when I feel the need to tinker. My next build will have integral wifi/bluetooth in the mobo.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Tamales wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:51 am Given the power consumption of separate graphics cards in desktop computers dwarfs the CPU (maybe the monitor(s) too), I don't get that comparison. At least, not as a purchase decision point.
I don't think that's true in any computer I have ever built, but I have never bought top of the line GPUs before.
The power consumption impacts temperature, cooling and noise, so it can be a purchase decision point.

I bought an AMD FX-8120 when it was released in October 2011. I used it in a large case. It was fine. Later on, I upgraded the computer. I moved the FX CPU to an HTPC. It couldn't stay within normal temperature specs. Fans ran full speed. It was very loud. It took quite a bit of work finding the right CPU cooler and case fans. I finally upgraded that HTPC to a Ryzen 2700 in December 2018. That's my most recent build.
If you're talking about a laptop, the considerations are different, but I wouldn't expect that people using laptops for gaming are as sensitive to power consumption as business laptop users. In any case, I'd be building a desktop so it's not a purchase consideration.
Laptops are a can of worms I don't really want to open. You can't really build your own, so it doesn't belong in this thread, anyway.
As a data point, my corporate laptop's with an Intel CPU/iGPU overheats badly when hooked up to a Thunderbolt docking station with two monitors connected via HDMI 2.0, running at 4K/60. The laptop fan runs all the time, and things stop repainting properly in Windows, like the start menu. If I disconnect one monitor, or drop the resolution, these problems go away. So, power consumption is important in laptops too, even if not gaming.
...not to mention a 5.25" form factor panel with additional USB or other connectivity options on the front panel, as well as power and airflow meters and other things. Quite a lot of useful things can go into a 5.25" slot. Maybe it's a generational thing, because I just don't get the PC case being a dynamic light show display first, and functionality is an afterthought.
Yes, I don't get it either. I just came back from Central Computers and had a bit of chat with the staff. They mentioned someone bought a company Case Labs, which I hadn't heard of, and are going to bring larger cases back to market. Apparently, they used to make larger and more functionality-oriented cases, not light shows. Unfortunately they ran out of business 3 years ago. I suppose that means the market has spoken, and they want light shows. We are in the minority.
I did come across that one in my search. I do think there's probably value in having an airflow path from at least 50-60% of the front face, through to the back. A couple other case brands I found that have at least 1-2 front panel 5.25" slots are Silverstone, Phanteks, Fractal Design, and Corsair, but stock is pretty spotty (is there a sheet steel shortage too?).
It does look like steel prices increased. I am not sure how much that has factored into the cost or availability of PC cases.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Tyler9000 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:01 am
tortoise84 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:20 am But anyway, if you want storage, there are some modern cases like the Fractal Meshify 2 XL:
https://www.fractal-design.com/products ... ass/black/

It can fit 18 x 3.5" and 5 x 2.5" drives, and they can be cooled easily by up to 4 x 120mm fans in the front.
I also recommend the Define 7 (or last-gen Define R6) if you're into storage and other devices. On top of the many interior drive brackets, it includes an exterior 5.25" drive bay hidden behind a front door.
I have looked at the Define series before. Drive bays hidden behind a front door make the case less functional for me. I hope the door is either removable, or that you can choose which side it opens.

One thing that really turned me off with the Define was the need to use screws for 3.5 drives. In a case like the Define 7 XL that supports 18 drives, I really don't want to be using screws. With that many drives, you are probably look at a NAS. And you want to be able to swap drives without too much hassle. That means screwless. The defunct Cooler Master HAF series I have have very nice removable trays that slide out, with noise dampers. Not fully hotswap - there is no backplane - but excellent. The Rosewill Thor v2 has this feature also.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

madbrain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:02 pm
Tamales wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:51 am Given the power consumption of separate graphics cards in desktop computers dwarfs the CPU (maybe the monitor(s) too), I don't get that comparison. At least, not as a purchase decision point.
I don't think that's true in any computer I have ever built, but I have never bought top of the line GPUs before.
The power consumption impacts temperature, cooling and noise, so it can be a purchase decision point.
It doesn't have to be top of the line for this to be true, it's actually fairly typical. My build is a midrange CPU paired with a midrange GPU. The Ryzen 5 3600X draws 95 watts at full tilt, while the RX 5700XT video card draws 412 watts.

The lowest-end current-generation GPU is the Radeon RX 6600, which is 132 watts. That's more than most processors except for flagships (Ryzen 9/i9).
User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:57 am

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Tyler9000 »

madbrain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:19 pm I have looked at the Define series before. Drive bays hidden behind a front door make the case less functional for me. I hope the door is either removable, or that you can choose which side it opens.
You can easily switch the hinge side or remove it entirely. It's a pretty versatile design.

Once I finally upgraded to all flash storage, I swapped out my old Define R6 for a new Define 7 Compact. There's no front drive bay on that one so no front door -- just a solid panel with edge ventilation. But it's also way smaller and is a better fit on my desktop. So it all depends on how you use it.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

So, I have been calling Central Computers almost daily about GPU availability. They had GTX 16 series at decent prices, but not the right port configuration. I wasn't willing to pay $500+ for a 16 series from Newegg or Amazon. Central in Santa Clara got stock of RTX 3060 and 3060 Ti.

I decided to completely blow my budget and went with the following.
$700 - model ZT-A30610H-10MLHR
$700 - AMD 5950x CPU (tray version, no cooler)
$100 - NH-D15 cooler
$140 - Corsair LPX DDR4-3600 2x16GB
$256- - Asus Prime X570 Pro motherboard

With CA tax, came to about $2050 total. I bought the parts on a Wells Fargo Cashwise credit card that offers price protection for 60 days, and 2% back.

The tech did a POST test with the motherboard, CPU and RAM before I left the store. So, I know the BIOS on the motherboard already supports the 5000 series CPUs.

I haven't started the build yet. Everything is still returnable within 14 days if I find issues or have buyer's remorse, and there is only one place to do so, not multiple online vendors. I could have gotten most of the parts except the GPU for less from B&H photo, but of course getting a GPU would have been impossible.

I will probably test things in a spare case / PSU with a spare SATA SSD, before I upgrade the parts in my monster HAF 932 Advanced case. The one thing I'm most worried about is how well the Firewire PCIe card will work with my old ECHO Audiofire 12 (or not).

Central also had the new 12th gen Intel CPUs in the store, and Z90 motherboards. Not sure if they had any DDR5 RAM stocked. I didn't do any research on the new Intel gear. Seems like the 12th Gen intel is getting good press. It may put some pressure on AMD prices, and I may get to do some price protection claims. I hope I don't regret my purchase. First, I have to see if things behave.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Tyler9000 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:27 pm Once I finally upgraded to all flash storage, I swapped out my old Define R6 for a new Define 7 Compact. There's no front drive bay on that one so no front door -- just a solid panel with edge ventilation. But it's also way smaller and is a better fit on my desktop. So it all depends on how you use it.
I'm using all-flash in my main PC also. That's 8 SATA 1 TB SSDs. And one NVMe, also 1TB.
I have been adding SSDs over time to expand my volume. Used to be a striped volume in Windows, now Storage Spaces, which supports TRIM. You still have to backup/restore when changing the stripe, or change the number of columns with Storage Spaces. But backups are what the NAS is for.

It's convenient to be able to add drives relatively easily. I'm still using mounting brackets to mount two 2.5 SSDs into one 3.5 space. But that gets mounted onto the removable trays, without screws.

In my NAS, I am using 8 HDDs, no screws at all for any of them.
Last edited by madbrain on Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

lazydavid wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:49 am
sycamore wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:23 am
madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:15 pm ...Finally, I noticed there was still a USB 3.0 hub/card reader plugged into the USB 3.0 internal header of the motherboard. I couldn't imagine why that drive/hub would have anything to do with causing the computer to not sleep...
It's always in the last place you look, isn't it? :-)
Well if you keep searching after you find the root cause, you wouldn't be so bright. :D
I think the point in this case is that it was the last non-required part that hadn't been removed.
I started by removing one part at a time, but my PC is so full of parts, I got tired after doing this 3-4, and just decided to unplug everything I could. I was trying to find out if it was a motherboard problem. I really thought it was, until I removed the card reader.

Usually, debugging parts problems isn't so hard, you remove 1-2 parts, typically the most recently added ones. For driver issues under Windows, you can sometimes just disable them in device manager and don't have to physically remove them for testing. I don't recall if I tried disabling the card reader in device manager, it's been too long.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

madbrain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:18 pm I think the point in this case is that it was the last non-required part that hadn't been removed.
I know. It was a joke. :)
Topic Author
Independent George
Posts: 1592
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:13 am
Location: Chicago, IL, USA

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

madbrain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:02 pm Yes, I don't get it either. I just came back from Central Computers and had a bit of chat with the staff. They mentioned someone bought a company Case Labs, which I hadn't heard of, and are going to bring larger cases back to market. Apparently, they used to make larger and more functionality-oriented cases, not light shows. Unfortunately they ran out of business 3 years ago. I suppose that means the market has spoken, and they want light shows. We are in the minority.
CaseLabs is supposedly coming back (starts at 2:45). Here is the GN review of their final case, the SMA-8. That particular case doesn't have the 5.25" drive bays you want, but the archived website at 12:46 offered a LOT customizable options. Note that the tradeoff for that construction was a hefty price tag ($700 for the AMA-8).

ETA: Overall, I actually have the opposite opinion on case design. I'm in the minority of people who still buys & rips CDs, but even then, I do it so rarely that I prefer to use an external USB drive for the 3-4x per year that I actually need it. Most people don't even bother with that. Reserving space for 5.25" bays just results in a needlessly large case and worse thermal performance for most people, who just need better airflow from the front intake to the CPU and GPU. Granted, I did end up using the front panel space in my NR600 when I installed my custom loop, but that would have been even less convenient had that space been reserved for a drive bay, and the people who build custom loops are a tiny minority of the minority of desktop enthusiasts. For the vast majority of enthusiasts who use either air coolers or AIOs, a more compact, airflow-focused case makes the most sense (well, as long as they don't seal off the airflow by putting tempered glass right in front of the purely decorative fan, but thankfully that stupidity seems to finally be dying). Even better would be a bottom or side intake fan right below the GPU slot; the Lian Li O11 Dynamic has 3x120mm intakes on the bottom, and might be starting a new trend.
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

A shipment of EVGA GeForce RTX 30-Series Graphics Cards was stolen from a truck recently. Official EVGA forum post here:
https://forums.evga.com/Notice-of-Stole ... 90851.aspx

EVGA has black listed the serial numbers of the stolen cards so they will not honor any warranty claims on them. If you are buying an EVGA card from an unofficial reseller e.g. eBay, you should check the serial number here: https://www.evga.com/warranty/check.asp to make sure it is not one of the stolen cards.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Independent George wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 9:33 am CaseLabs is supposedly coming back (starts at 2:45). Here is the GN review of their final case, the SMA-8. That particular case doesn't have the 5.25" drive bays you want, but the archived website at 12:46 offered a LOT customizable options. Note that the tradeoff for that construction was a hefty price tag ($700 for the AMA-8).

ETA: Overall, I actually have the opposite opinion on case design. I'm in the minority of people who still buys & rips CDs, but even then, I do it so rarely that I prefer to use an external USB drive for the 3-4x per year that I actually need it. Most people don't even bother with that. Reserving space for 5.25" bays just results in a needlessly large case and worse thermal performance for most people, who just need better airflow from the front intake to the CPU and GPU. Granted, I did end up using the front panel space in my NR600 when I installed my custom loop, but that would have been even less convenient had that space been reserved for a drive bay, and the people who build custom loops are a tiny minority of the minority of desktop enthusiasts. For the vast majority of enthusiasts who use either air coolers or AIOs, a more compact, airflow-focused case makes the most sense (well, as long as they don't seal off the airflow by putting tempered glass right in front of the purely decorative fan, but thankfully that stupidity seems to finally be dying). Even better would be a bottom or side intake fan right below the GPU slot; the Lian Li O11 Dynamic has 3x120mm intakes on the bottom, and might be starting a new trend.
I still have CDs also, though I don't buy too many anymore. SACDs sometimes, but I have to use a PS3 to rip those. I do buy 4K Blu-rays, which I rip onto my NAS for viewing with my HTPCs. My husband continues to buy CDs by the pallet. He has got over 15,000. To this day he still doesn't want to digitize them. But if he ever does, the 4 optical drives that fill 4 out of the 6 5.25" bay in my main PC will come in handy.

I have not dabbled in liquid cooling, and never will. I'm certain that with my luck, I would end up with a leak and many dead parts. I don't want to deal with the warranty claims. I have to admit that those beautiful Noctua air coolers I have been using are huge, making the build quite difficult and requiring a big case.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

madbrain wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:45 pm I decided to completely blow my budget and went with the following.
$700 - GPU : RTX 3060Ti model ZT-A30610H-10MLHR
$700 - AMD 5950x CPU (tray version, no cooler)
$100 - NH-D15 cooler
$140 - Corsair LPX DDR4-3600 2x16GB
$256- - Asus Prime X570 Pro motherboard
So, I did start the build late last night. I didn't want to take my fully loaded and working 5820k system apart in the huge tower, in case there were compatibility issues. I had tons of spare parts already, plenty enough to do a separate build.

I re-used the many spare parts I had :

My spare case for the test is this mid tower :
https://www.neweggbusiness.com/product/ ... 11-156-262
I remember buying this case at Fry's for something like $25. Cases like this, with front bays, were no longer in fashion already.

The spare PSU that was still in the case is this :
https://www.neweggbusiness.com/product/ ... 17-152-047

This dual SSD SATA hotswap rack was still installed :
https://www.amazon.com/Kingwin-Tray-Les ... OR_STORAGE

There was a pair of grey 140mm case fans installed, one on top rear, one on bottom front. Not sure the exact models. They look like Noctuas.

There were no motherboard standoffs left installed, because they came off in my last unbuild. I had to look for some in my bag of screws and other tiny PC parts. I installed 9 standoffs. I used only 5 to screw in the motherboard, since the plan was to take it out into the other case after things check out.

Turns out the Raidmax case won't allow the NH-D15 to fit with both fans. Even one fan is very hard to clip on both sides due to the very limited clearance the heatsink and the top of the case. With the second fan in, it also sticks out if trying to close the case, which I wasn't going to do in this medium case.

I plugged just one SATA data cable for one of the 2.5in docks.

In addition to all the parts above, I plugged in a spare TI Firewire card, along with its Molex power cable.
https://www.newegg.com/syba-model-sy-pe ... 6815124107

I also plugged in a spare Aquantia 10 gig NIC.
https://www.amazon.com/Aquantia-NIC-5-s ... B07C5VLVFF

The drive I used for testing was an 11-year old spare Corsair Force GT 120GB SSD.
https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/storage/ ... sd-review/

I had 2 problems with the Raidmax RX-735AP PSU. One is that it has the EATX 8-pin connector, actually two 4 pin, but no 3rd 4-pin, ie. the EATX 4-pin connector.
The manual for the Prime X570 Pro says the 4-pin connector is optional but the 8-pin connector is required. I plugged the two 4-pin from the PSU into the 8-pin on the motherboard.

Looks like they make Molex to 4-pin EATX adapters to get a 3rd 4-pin. My drawer of internal case cables doesn't include this, unfortunately.
https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-101321 ... B07QQKHVQM
I didn't order one because this is just a temporary build.

The second is that the RTX 3060Ti GPU required an 8-pin PCIe power cable. I don't remember ever seeing one of those. The PSU is modular, and there was nothing plugged in to it. I went through my drawer of internal cables again. I found some modular adapters that had 6-pin from the PSU side, to two 6+2 connectors. All those modular adapters appeared to have the same wiring, by eyeballing it. They all had the same foolproof connector. The only thing that appeared different was the styling of the cable sleeve. I own many PSUs, including at least 3 Raidmax. I figured this was the right cable. I chose the more colorful one with the styling that matched the other modular cables for SATA.

So, I finally got all the parts together. Hooked up just one monitor, one of the 3 4K ports on my left-side LG-32UD59-B. I used the HDMI#1 input.
Hooked it up to the KVM for USB keyboard/mouse.
One 15ft CAT6A run to the 10gig switch for network.
And I moved the audio interface Firewire cable from my main PC to this one.
Finally came the power cable. I turned the machine on. Moment of truth.

There was a nice light show on the motherboard, as is customary these days apparently. Unfortunately, no image on the monitor. I double-checked the input on the monitor. Then, I noticed the suspicious absence of light show coming from the GPU. And the facts that neither of the two GPU fans were spinning. Additionally, there was no beep of any kind, suspiciously, even though the speaker was hooked up.

Interestingly, the NIC negotiated 10 GBASE-T with the switch. Both sides had the green light on.
The KVM indicated there was power on the port I hooked up the machine to.
The NumLock LED switched back and forth when pressed.
CPU fan was spinning, as were both case fans.

I was really wondering what was going on. My first attempt was to use one of the other PSU to PCIe 6+2 power cables to the GPU. No change. I even tried all connectors, the near and far sides, on several cables. No change.

I then took out the Aquantia NIC and Firewire cards. No change.

I was starting to fear that the motherboard wasn't really updated for Ryzen 5000 properly. I hadn't witnessed the POST test the store did. I don't know what kind of GPU they had. I started looking into the Asus BIOS flashback procedure. Unfortunately, it looks like the board actually doesn't support it, as it lacks a BIOS flashback button, and there is no marked BIOS flashback USB port.
The next suspicion was a bad GPU. Maybe I used the wrong power adapter and killed this $799 GPU ?

So, I took it out, and swapped the RTX 3060Ti with the GTX960 in my older X99A machine, with its beefy Corsair AX1200i PSU.
Good news : the new GPU worked just fine in the older machine.
Bad news : the old GPU didn't power up either in the new machine.

I started trying to swap the GPUs back. This is where things went seriously wrong. Not the most wrong of all my PC builds, mind you. But bad. The RTX GPU was stuck in the PCIe slot. The PCIe lock mechanism was holding it tight.
The Zotac 3060Ti card is designed in such a way that there is no way to run fingers underneath from the left to unlock the PCIe slot mechanism. My GTX 960 has clearance at the bottom to do this. So, that left the right side. Unfortunately, there was no space between the card and the NH-D14 heatsink. Not even a millimeter. Neither of the two Noctua CPU fans could be unclipped from the heatsink to make even a tiny bit more space. You have to unclip the middle fan to be able to access the two screws that hold the huge Noctua heatsink. That would be the only way I could think of at the time to remove the heatsink, make space to access the right side of the PCIe lock mechanism to remove the GPU.
I thought about this for about 15 minutes. Watched many videos. Tried to use flat screwdrivers by removing a few PCIe cards on the other side. Nothing worked. Finally, I did something I have almost never done, which was to use force to pull the $799 GPU out. It worked. But I heard a plastic part fall to the bottom of the big HAF 932 Advanced tower. The GPU looked intact. The top PCIe slot was missing the lock mechanism. I looked for it for a while with a flashlight, and couldn't find it. I had to open the right side of the case, and there it was. I was able to put it back in place. It's a bit loose now, and doesn't really lock as well. I put the GTX 960 back in. I booted, and the old machine was back to normal.
In retrospect, I think removing the entire motherboard from the computer might have provided some access behind the GPU. There were drive bays in behind preventing one to look at the right angle.

I put the RTX 3060Ti back in the new PC. Still no dice. Still no beep codes. I noticed one of the leads was broken. I'm going to blame one of the 3 cats who were assisting me with the build for this one. My husband was nice enough to solder the speaker back at 1am. I finally got beep codes. There was 1 long and 3 short beeps, and then 1 long and 4 short beeps.

The first code is for a GPU problem. The second one is a random hardware component failure.

My next test was to move the GPU to the PCIe x16 slot. Lo and behold, the light show came on ! So did the fans on the GPU. And the image on the monitor finally showed up. It was probably 5 hours since I first started the build by this. It turns out I attached the case fans and CPU fan to the wrong connectors on the motherboard. The CPU fan was on CPU OPT instead of the primary connector. The top rear 140mm case was was on one the AOI connectors. The bottom front case fan was on one of the waterpump connectors . My vision unfortunately isn't what it used to be in my teens. I have been wearing glasses since last year. I fixed all the fan connections. This was very tough in the mid tower case, with the limited clearance on top, requiring the removal of the NH-D15 fan and heatsink to access the right set of pins.
Finally the connections were fixed, and there were no more beeps. I got the idea to move the GPU back to the top slot. I'm not sure why. It's just a force of habit. And this time, I got the light show, and the GPU has been working fine ever since, very strangely. And it's now locked in place in that top slot, just like it was in the other machine. But I shouldn't have to use force to remove it, since there is still enough space to remove the Noctua NH-D15 in this case.

I put the Firewire and 10gig NICs back in. Installed Windows 10 from a USB 3.0 stick. This must have taken less than 5 minutes. I installed all drivers, customization, Firefox, a dozen apps, the Firewire drivers for the Audiofire 12. All looked good. Ran an internet speedtest and it showed 1430 Mbps, which was the expected range. I backed up the entire SSD with Acronis to my NAS in 1min37s.
There has not been a single hardware problem from this moment. I left Memtest86 running for 4 passes. All the RAM tested good. I bought open-box RAM from the store to save $15, because I always run memtest anyway.

It seems to run everything solid now. This afternoon, I did a Windows 11 upgrade, and it ran fine, also. Took a lot longer to upgrade than the Windows 10 initial install. I backed the state of the disk up to the NAS also.

I haven't done any OC stress-testing, because the mid tower case is just too small. I tested with the case open on both sides. I did run the RAM at its rated DDR4-3600 speed, though.

I'm still unsure about the somewhat random nature of the failure of the GPU to power up. It could be related to the fact that the EATX 4-pin connector is not hooked up to the motherboard. Fry's Electronics is no more, unfortunately. At 8pm on a friday, it used to be possible to go grab a lot of unusual cables, and a molex to 4-pin probably was one of them. That ended years ago when there stores became empty, and completely this year when the entire chain shut down due to the combined effect of both online retailers and the pandemic.
Looks like Central Computers actually carries this cable, so I will go tomorrow grab it :
https://www.centralcomputer.com/atx-p4- ... ble-6.html
It'll be a good cable to have in my drawer even if I only use it for one day for now.
I really hope the issue I encountered is not a bad motherboard. I may have to consider swapping the motherboard at Central computers given this trouble. Would be nice to know this before changing case. It could be a bad GPU, also, but there is no stock to exchange that.

I still have a few parts I haven't tested compatibility for. NVMe SSD, LSI SAS card, Hauppauge video capture card. I'll try to transplant the remaining two PCIe cards to check for issues. Not really worried about the NVMe drive compatibility, an ADATA SX 8200 Pro, which is a very popular part.

If the remaining compatibility tests go well, I might be transplanting the new Ryzen to the big HAF 932 Advanced case with the Corsair PSU this week-end, and putting the older motherboard / CPU / cooler / GPU / RAM up for sale. There is probably about $500 to fetch from them if selling piecemeal.
User avatar
kevinf
Posts: 848
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by kevinf »

Managed to trade my 1080ti for a 3060ti from one of my friends that has gotten into building mining rigs (he purchased a short card that doesn't fit the brackets properly). They are about the same hash rate for mining but the 3060ti offers Raytracing and DLSS capability as well as a slight performance edge in modern games. So he gets a card that fits his mining rig and I get a card that has performance parity with my 1080ti + modern features for no cost. :happy
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ :happy
madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm So, I did start the build late last night.
Wow. Years ago, when I had a ton of spare parts, I would have done the same thing as you on this build. (I'm also very good with soldering.) Nice job persisting through. :thumbsup

As for the amount of force removing the GPU, I've had old cases where it was simply a difference in manufacturing tolerances. Metal does not flex, so if you are missing by 1 mm (or less), it still won't budge. Loosening the motherboard mounting screws may have helped, hard to say. Maybe not.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
j9j
Posts: 385
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:46 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by j9j »

kevinf wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:28 am Managed to trade my 1080ti for a 3060ti from one of my friends that has gotten into building mining rigs (he purchased a short card that doesn't fit the brackets properly). They are about the same hash rate for mining but the 3060ti offers Raytracing and DLSS capability as well as a slight performance edge in modern games. So he gets a card that fits his mining rig and I get a card that has performance parity with my 1080ti + modern features for no cost. :happy
Sounds like a smart trade and if non-phrase, a fantastic trade. The non-Lhr are actually worth over 1k based on resale pricing.
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm I had 2 problems with the Raidmax RX-735AP PSU. One is that it has the EATX 8-pin connector, actually two 4 pin, but no 3rd 4-pin, ie. the EATX 4-pin connector.
The manual for the Prime X570 Pro says the 4-pin connector is optional but the 8-pin connector is required. I plugged the two 4-pin from the PSU into the 8-pin on the motherboard.
The 8-pin is called ATX (1st 4-pins)/EPS (2nd 4-pins) and it is required for all modern CPUs. It can supply up to 235 W to the CPU. The 3rd 4-pin is another ATX connector that supplies an additional 80 W so it really is optional for extreme CPU overclocking, or for Intel CPUs because they use a lot more power. A 5950X has a default Package Power Tracking (PPT) of 142 W, so unless you raise that limit, you won't need the 3rd ATX 4-pin. (These plugs have nothing to do with your graphics card).
madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm The second is that the RTX 3060Ti GPU required an 8-pin PCIe power cable. I don't remember ever seeing one of those. The PSU is modular, and there was nothing plugged in to it. I went through my drawer of internal cables again. I found some modular adapters that had 6-pin from the PSU side, to two 6+2 connectors. All those modular adapters appeared to have the same wiring, by eyeballing it. They all had the same foolproof connector. The only thing that appeared different was the styling of the cable sleeve. I own many PSUs, including at least 3 Raidmax. I figured this was the right cable. I chose the more colorful one with the styling that matched the other modular cables for SATA.
This is actually a big no no. Modular PSU connectors are different for each manufacturer and sometimes even for different models from the same manufacturer. Also a pin with 2 rounded corners can still fit into a square hole. Heck, even a square pin will go into a hole with rounded corners if you force it hard enough. This means that if you pull some random cable out of your drawer, there's a very high risk that you could use a miswired cable and fry your component or PSU. That's what I first thought when you said your GPU was not working, but you eventually got it working so it looks like you got lucky in this game of PSU Russian Roulette.

Also, if you get a GPU that uses 2 or more PCIe power connectors, it is recommend to have each connector on a separate cable going back to your PSU. A 6-pin PCIe power connector can supply up to 75 W and an 8-pin supplies up to 150 W. If you use two 8-pins from a single cable with a splitter or adapter, that's 300 W and you don't know if the cable or the output port on the PSU side is rated for that much power.
madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm I started trying to swap the GPUs back. This is where things went seriously wrong. Not the most wrong of all my PC builds, mind you. But bad. The RTX GPU was stuck in the PCIe slot. The PCIe lock mechanism was holding it tight.
It has always been difficult, especially now with oversized CPU coolers and GPUs. I use a nylon pry tool, or you can try a chopstick, blunt end of a bamboo skewer, plastic knife, etc, and of course, be careful not to slip and stab your motherboard.

Asus now has a Q-Release button on their motherboards to make it a lot easier: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/asus- ... lease-z690
madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm I got the idea to move the GPU back to the top slot. I'm not sure why. It's just a force of habit. And this time, I got the light show, and the GPU has been working fine ever since, very strangely.
The only thing I can think of is maybe your GPU was not fully seated the first time. The bottom of the slot brackets has a 'tongue' with a slight bend outwards, and this tongue has to fit into some slots in the motherboard tray. Here's a picture of the back of the motherboard tray of my Cooler Master NR400 case showing the tongues sticking through the slots:

Image

The tongues could catch onto the bottom lip of the expansion slot holes on the back of the case, or they might miss the slots in the motherboard tray, such that the GPU won't be fully seated. It's possible for this to happen even if the PCIe x16 slot latch clicks in. The telltale sign is usually that the rear bracket is still about 2 mm higher than it should be and won't screw down all the way.
madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm All looked good. Ran an internet speedtest and it showed 1430 Mbps, which was the expected range. I backed up the entire SSD with Acronis to my NAS in 1min37s.
I have 10 Gigabit Ethernet too and love it. 1 GbE and Wi-Fi is starting to be a bottleneck for internet and moving Gigabytes of files on SSDs around a home network.
madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm It seems to run everything solid now. This afternoon, I did a Windows 11 upgrade, and it ran fine, also. Took a lot longer to upgrade than the Windows 10 initial install.
I would just do a completely clean Windows 11 installation so that there are no legacy files from Win10.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

tortoise84 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:32 am The 8-pin is called ATX (1st 4-pins)/EPS (2nd 4-pins) and it is required for all modern CPUs. It can supply up to 235 W to the CPU. The 3rd 4-pin is another ATX connector that supplies an additional 80 W so it really is optional for extreme CPU overclocking, or for Intel CPUs because they use a lot more power. A 5950X has a default Package Power Tracking (PPT) of 142 W, so unless you raise that limit, you won't need the 3rd ATX 4-pin. (These plugs have nothing to do with your graphics card).
Thanks ! Great information. I'm sure my Corsair AX1200i PSU has the 3rd 4-pin. I will experiment with overclocking some more when the motherboard is hooked up to that, in the bigger case. Not sure how high I will go. I like to run Prime95 for 24 hours before calling it good. I have seen it fail sometimes at 12 or 18 hour mark. The guys at Central computers only run it for 1 hour. In the past, I have tried other OC tools, but none ever got the power/temperature as high as Prime95. I even had one AMD FX CPU and motherboard burn to death during a Prime95 run, once. As in, there was smoke involved. I was in front of it when it happened. It all shut down, and there was no fire, thankfully.
This is actually a big no no. Modular PSU connectors are different for each manufacturer and sometimes even for different models from the same manufacturer. Also a pin with 2 rounded corners can still fit into a square hole. Heck, even a square pin will go into a hole with rounded corners if you force it hard enough. This means that if you pull some random cable out of your drawer, there's a very high risk that you could use a miswired cable and fry your component or PSU. That's what I first thought when you said your GPU was not working, but you eventually got it working so it looks like you got lucky in this game of PSU Russian Roulette.
Yes, I know the modular connectors are different between manufacturers/models. I had one cable that didn't fit easily, and I didn't try to force it, but it would have been possible to do. Nowadays, I keep the boxes for the modular PSUs I buy. The boxes take a ton of space. I also keep the boxes for the Noctua coolers, which have all the other parts for different types of sockets. Those are huge, and I now I have three of them.
Also, if you get a GPU that uses 2 or more PCIe power connectors, it is recommend to have each connector on a separate cable going back to your PSU. A 6-pin PCIe power connector can supply up to 75 W and an 8-pin supplies up to 150 W. If you use two 8-pins from a single cable with a splitter or adapter, that's 300 W and you don't know if the cable or the output port on the PSU side is rated for that much power.
Thanks. I didn't know the power rating. I have always used splitters in the past with zero problem. In this case, the RTX 3060Ti only takes a single 8-pin connection, so the splitter cable isn't an issue, other than for cable management purposes, but cable management is something I have always been horrible at, and with ever-changing and my fully-loaded PCs, it's useless for me to bother.
The GTX 960 looks like it consumes up to 250 watts at load, vs up to 200 watts for the 3060Ti.
With 75W coming from PCIe, in theory, the splitter cable could have been a problem. It hasn't been, probably because the AX1200i I'm using with it is a good PSU.
Asus now has a Q-Release button on their motherboards to make it a lot easier: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/asus- ... lease-z690
Thanks. Now, you are making me regret not buying an Alder Lake. But not really, looks like there are many bugs to be worked out with it at this time, with the new separate P-cores and E-cores.

I actually haven't had a problem removing GPUs before this 3060Ti. I have never had one quite that big, though.
The only thing I can think of is maybe your GPU was not fully seated the first time. The bottom of the slot brackets has a 'tongue' with a slight bend outwards, and this tongue has to fit into some slots in the motherboard tray. Here's a picture of the back of the motherboard tray of my Cooler Master NR400 case showing the tongues sticking through the slots:
I suppose it could have been that, but I have built many PCs and inserted many PCIe cards, and never seen this problem before.
I have 10 Gigabit Ethernet too and love it. 1 GbE and Wi-Fi is starting to be a bottleneck for internet and moving Gigabytes of files on SSDs around a home network.
Yes. I have been running 10 Gbe for 2.5 years on my LAN for backups. My Internet speed just got over 1 Gigabit this summer. Wish my upload speed wasn't a measly 40 Mbit. 0.4% of the LAN speed, sigh. Takes forever to upload 4K videos to Youtube.
The one thing I don't like is the noise of my Trendnet TEG-7080ES switch. The fans are small and run constantly. They are not very loud, but definitely louder than both my desktop and NAS with their humongous 200/230mm fans running at low RPM.
I have a Netgear GS110MX which is fully silent in my home theater. Only 2 ports 10 gig, though. Have another one still in a box, to be used when I finally run a CAT6A to my master bedroom.
Are you using a completely silent switch ?
It looks like Mikrotik has a few options that are silent, but they use SFP+. SFP+ to 10GBASE-T are generally limited to 100ft, and this might be too short for the kind of runs I need between rooms. I would prefer to stick with 10GBASE-T all around and not get involved with SFP+. No one seems to make any fanless 10GBASE-T switch with more than 2 ports, though.
I think I'm probably going to have a door built for a closet in my home office to move the not-so-quiet 10gig switch to.
I would just do a completely clean Windows 11 installation so that there are no legacy files from Win10.
Yes, I know, this was just a test bed to see if Windows 11 would work. I didn't want to reinstall the drivers and a few apps manually again. That takes much more time than the OS install. I won't actually be using either those Win10/Win11 installs for my daily driver. I will probably give it at least a year to run Win11 daily. I prefer to let others figure out the compatibility issues before me. I use a fairly high number of applications, some of them very common and recent, some not so. Reinstalling them all is a PITA. There is a lot of system and application customization that gets saved in the registry, which needs to be redone when reinstalling the OS. This is not something I enjoy doing. I still have to do it every couple of years when things start to inexplicably misbehave beyond repair, unfortunately. If I keep the new motherboard, I'll try to keep the existing Windows 10 OS install on the NVMe drive, and install updated drivers. Not sure if that will be stable. I hope I'm not forced to reinstall all my apps.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

madbrain wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:59 pm I still have a few parts I haven't tested compatibility for. NVMe SSD, LSI SAS card, Hauppauge video capture card. I'll try to transplant the remaining two PCIe cards to check for issues. Not really worried about the NVMe drive compatibility, an ADATA SX 8200 Pro, which is a very popular part.
Hauppauge card is fine with WinTV 8.5 in Windows 11. I was able to see the menus for my old Yamaha AVR through the s-video input.

LSI SAS card is fine too. I transplanted it from my main box. Didn't have a spare SAS card ;) I did have a spare SAS cable, though.
I attached port #1 to the second port of the dual 2.5in SATA dock. Inserted another SSD in there. The SATA SSD showed up just fine in device manager, as a SCSI device.

I removed the SSD containing Windows 11, and just did an install of Ubuntu 20.4.3 LTS with ZFS root from USB onto the SATA SSD attached to the SAS card. Install went pretty quickly. But system won't boot from SAS. To be fair, I have never tried to boot any OS from the SAS card before. Just tried with CSM and a few different BIOS options. No go either. Not sure if this would have worked in the mother motherboard..

I just moved the SSD to the other dock bay still attached to the motherboard SATA controller, and it booted just fine. Fairly painless.
Ran iperf3 and it showed 9.22 Gbit/s to the NAS. speedtest-cli showed 1391 Mbps down / 41 Mbps up. Display was running at 1024x768 so I installed nVidia drivers. I was still at 1024x768. suspend worked. resume did not. Probably an nVidia driver issue. Rebooted. Now display is at 4K 60 properly. And suspend / resume works. Even sound works in the browser, at least on the first two channels of my Audiofire 12. Pretty painless as Linux installs go.

I think that concludes my testing. Transplant of the motherboard to the big case will be forthcoming. Probably after dark tonight.
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

madbrain wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:35 pm The one thing I don't like is the noise of my Trendnet TEG-7080ES switch. The fans are small and run constantly. They are not very loud, but definitely louder than both my desktop and NAS with their humongous 200/230mm fans running at low RPM.
I have a Netgear GS110MX which is fully silent in my home theater. Only 2 ports 10 gig, though. Have another one still in a box, to be used when I finally run a CAT6A to my master bedroom.
Are you using a completely silent switch ?
It looks like Mikrotik has a few options that are silent, but they use SFP+. SFP+ to 10GBASE-T are generally limited to 100ft, and this might be too short for the kind of runs I need between rooms. I would prefer to stick with 10GBASE-T all around and not get involved with SFP+. No one seems to make any fanless 10GBASE-T switch with more than 2 ports, though.
I think I'm probably going to have a door built for a closet in my home office to move the not-so-quiet 10gig switch to.
I have a Netgear MS510TX (1x10GbE, 1xSFP+, 2x5GbE, 2x2.5GbE, 4x1GbE) and it does have a fan that emits a quiet but high pitched noise. Luckily my Cat5e runs all go back to a central closet in my laundry, so that's where I put the switch and a NAS with its hard drives to contain the noise.

I also try to avoid 10GBase-T SFP+ transceivers. I tried one of the $40 ones and ran into the 100 ft distance limit. Also I only have Cat5e which is not meant to take 10GbE but I have found that it still works over short distances. So then I tried the SFP+ transceiver in the switch connecting to my NAS in the same room using a 6 ft Cat6 cable, and it wouldn't work properly with 9KB jumbo frames with my QNAP QM2-2P10G1TA 10GbE + 2 x NVMe PCIe card in the NAS. However jumbo frames did work when I swapped the card in the NAS with a QNAP QXG-10G1T 10GbE PCIe card, so the problem is just with the specific combination of the SFP+ transceiver with the QM2 card. The QM2 card also works fine with jumbo frames on the regular RJ45 10GbE port of the switch so that's what I ended up using.

The fanless switches I have seen only have up to 2 10GbE ports because that's all the heat they can handle, but there are some that supposedly have quiet on-demand fans that you might want to look into:

QNAP QSW-M408-4C: 4x10GbE/SFP+ combo ports, 8x1GbE
QNAP QSW-2104-2T: 2x10GbE, 4x2.5GbE, fanless
Zyxel XGS1250-12: 3x10GbE, 1xSFP+, 8x1GbE
madbrain wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 4:35 pm If I keep the new motherboard, I'll try to keep the existing Windows 10 OS install on the NVMe drive, and install updated drivers. Not sure if that will be stable. I hope I'm not forced to reinstall all my apps.
I still don't think it's a good idea to reuse a Windows 10 installation for an Intel platform and transfer it to an AMD platform that is several generations newer, because almost all of the drivers and system components are different. Bite the bullet and do a clean install.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ I would agree. In theory, the Windows 10 HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) keeps the hardware separated from the software. You can boot on any system and the HAL figures it out. In practice, I wouldn't trust it. Linux may be more forgiving from this aspect.

The hidden devices found in Device Manager (see quote below) are an example of what happens when you change hardware. Take a look at Device Manager --> View --> Show hidden devices (enable) Google is your friend. I removed the hidden devices manually, but you might be able to find a tool that does this automatically.

==============
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.
...

My current build (Ryzen 7 5800X) is giving me enough grief to want this fixed. I tried forcing my PCIe settings to Gen 3.0, but that didn't work. Neither did removing all of the hidden devices shown in Device Manager.

(Hidden devices are unused components that are still in the registry. It can cause problems and is why you should prefer to do clean installs vs. moving an existing drive from one PC to another. I removed all the hidden devices in the USB controllers, storage controllers, and Processors. It didn't help.)

I did find, however, that you can bypass the problem entirely by getting a PCIe to USB 3.0 card. Connect to your mouse and keyboard via PCIe instead of the USB controller. A cheap solution to a problem that's inherent in this design. Somewhere.

I just ordered a cheap card from Newegg: Rosewill RC-508 USB 3.0 PCI-E Express Card with 4 USB 3.0 Ports, Speed Up to 5.0 Gbps It's cheaper than the shipping cost if I had to return my motherboard, which I'm not about to do it unless it totally fails.
I forgot to mention that I'm running my RAM overclocked at 3600 MHz. I suspect that's contributing to the problem.

My PCIe USB 3.0 card won't arrive until Wednesday.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
harland
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:33 am

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by harland »

Running X570 + 5800X but with an AMD GPU. Haven't noticed any USB issues at all, but I also bought all the peripherals around the same time I put together the computer, which was about two years ago.

Also read some of the posts on the Noctua NH-D15. It can be a pain to work with since it's so large. I went with the asymmetrical version (NH-D15S) to shift the heatsink away from the PCIe slot. It gives me access to the release tab if I use a tool to extend my reach. The downside is there's even less room between the top of the case and the cooler. If I had to do it all over again, I'd probably go with the NH-U14S. Competitive cooling performance but a lot less hassle.
The one thing that unites all human beings, regardless of age, gender, religion, economic status or ethnic background, is that, deep down inside, we ALL believe that we are above-average drivers.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:17 pm ^^^ I would agree. In theory, the Windows 10 HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) keeps the hardware separated from the software. You can boot on any system and the HAL figures it out. In practice, I wouldn't trust it. Linux may be more forgiving from this aspect.

The hidden devices found in Device Manager (see quote below) are an example of what happens when you change hardware. Take a look at Device Manager --> View --> Show hidden devices (enable) Google is your friend. I removed the hidden devices manually, but you might be able to find a tool that does this automatically.
Thanks. It's really a ton of work to customize the OS from scratch. Much more than assembling the machine, unfortunately. But I'll consider it.
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.
...

I forgot to mention that I'm running my RAM overclocked at 3600 MHz. I suspect that's contributing to the problem.

My PCIe USB 3.0 card won't arrive until Wednesday.
FYI, I have also been running my RAM at DDR4-3600 also, which is what Corsair rates it for. I haven't see any USB issues either. My motherboard is also X570, but from Asus. CPU is 5950X, not 5800X. My keyboard/mouse are connected through a powered KVM, which may hide the problem. The only other USB devices I connected so far were a USB stick to the front port (attached to internal USB 3.0 header) and a USB 3.0 HDD. No issues with either, thankfully.

Just for fun, I measured the power consumption of the box in the small case, with just the one SATA SSD attached, but still with all the PCIe slots filled. Lowest reading I saw idle was about 102W. It didn't matter if I changed from high performance power plan to power saver.
Downclocking the RAM from 3600 to 2133 brought the idle wattage down to about 87W. Quite sizeable win. I think doing that dropped the voltage on the RAM from 1.35V to 1.2V. I tried to tune a few things manually in the BIOS, but ended up making things worse - got a slower machine with higher power consumption. Too many settings changed at once for me to tell what caused it.
Anyway, I didn't build the machine to be a power miser, but it was still interesting to see. I'll take a few Kill-awatt readings without the PCIe cards (except GPU). And also from my X99/5820k system, before I disassemble it.
Tamales
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:47 am

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Tamales »

madbrain wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:41 pm [...]Anyway, I didn't build the machine to be a power miser, but it was still interesting to see. I'll take a few Kill-awatt readings without the PCIe cards (except GPU). And also from my X99/5820k system, before I disassemble it.
Using the kill-a-watt gives an interesting perspective on power draw from the 120V outlet. I'm not sure how people became programmed to be concerned about power consumption from a desktop computer but they have. Those are pretty small numbers in the grand scheme of household power consumption. Cook one less thing in your oven every 3 years, or dry 1 less load in your electric dryer every 3 years, and you'd probably make up for the differential from an average power-consumption desktop.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Tamales wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:00 am Using the kill-a-watt gives an interesting perspective on power draw from the 120V outlet. I'm not sure how people became programmed to be concerned about power consumption from a desktop computer but they have. Those are pretty small numbers in the grand scheme of household power consumption. Cook one less thing in your oven every 3 years, or dry 1 less load in your electric dryer every 3 years, and you'd probably make up for the differential from an average power-consumption desktop.
My dryer is natural gas, not electric. So are the two water heaters. And the two furnaces. The two central air conditioners are electric. Our oven is electric, and cooktop is induction. The cooktop is very efficient and rarely runs for very long.

I calculated our actual electric rate a few days ago, and it's 19 cents per kWh for the usage covered by solar, well below the average for PG&E in California.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
We are on solar with an E-6 TOU grandfathered rate, and medical baseline. If not for this, the average rate/kWh would probably be over 30 cents/kWh. Without solar, net grid usage would be more than double. The annual bill in dollars would roughly quadruple.

None of my computers are average, and there are many of them :) This one has triple monitors attached, which can consume a bunch, too.
I think with the monitors on, it consumes about 400 watts. I would have to check with those devices together on the kill-a-watt. Running it 8 hours a day is 3.2 kWh. Assuming about 300 days per year , that's 900.6 kWh/year. That's 3.6% of our total annual electricity usage of 24576 kWh, and 7.9% of our net PG&E usage from the grid of 11386 kWh. Not negligible at all. And costs about $171/year to run, based on average rate of 19 cents/kWh I computed.

In comparison, our two EVs used 4188 kWh per year according to the home charger stats. That cost us $797 in electricity. We drove about 17,000 miles combined between our two EV/PHEV during this period, all but 1000 of them electric miles. The energy used by the using computer alone is enough to drive about 3500 miles on our EVs.

This is just one computer. There are several in the house. The NAS idles at about 110W. This is why I suspend it and use WOL to wake it up. Annual cost to run it 24/7 would be 963 kWh or $183/year.

The monthly bills are $196 on average, so those numbers are very significant. I'm confident the energy we use from cooking is far, far less than that of our computers. I have been very curious to get hard data on each device, but the wall oven/induction cooktop/air conditioners/hot tub/sauna are all hardwired, and you can't plug a kWh onto them to measure things. There are systems with current transformers you can add to each breaker to measure things. The last time I checked, these systems have a limit of 32 breakers, and don't work correctly with subpanels (you have to have multiple systems). And of course, you have to pay an electrician to install them. I haven't been curious enough to research this recently if the situation with per-breaker energy trackers had improved.

I could go on quite a long time about electricity usage of various devices, so I'll stop the digression. The rest is better discussed in a thread about power consumption.

TLDR : powerful computers use a lot of electricity, and can be expensive to run.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

madbrain wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:41 pm Anyway, I didn't build the machine to be a power miser, but it was still interesting to see. I'll take a few Kill-awatt readings without the PCIe cards (except GPU). And also from my X99/5820k system, before I disassemble it.
So, the lowest I got from the Ryzen build was about 59W idle, after removing all the PCIe cards except the GPU, and disabling the light show on the motherboard. Turns out those are worth a couple watts ! I didn't try to disable the LEDs on the GPU. Maybe it's possible. This was in Win11.

Old 5820k machine idles at 125W with being fully loaded with all the large case fans, the boot NVMe SSD, 8 SATA SSDs, 4 optical drives, both CPU fans on the cooler, and all PCIe slots also full. Removing the overclock on both the RAM and CPU drove idle down to 110W. That was in Win10.

I'm going to unplug all but the GPU & NVMe and take one final reading to see the lowest it gets, before disassembling.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:17 pm I forgot to mention that I'm running my RAM overclocked at 3600 MHz. I suspect that's contributing to the problem.
We built my son's system yesterday (MSI X570S, 5800X CPU, Asus 5700XT GPU, 32GB G.Skill 3600Mhz), and the only time we experienced USB delays was when the chipset drivers were installing--which of course makes sense. That was actually before we tweaked the BIOS settings to use the XMP profile and changed the FCLK to 1800. Totally fine since then. Keyboard is plugged into the USB 2.0 port, Mouse and several other devices (including his extremely connection-sensitive DAC/Amp) are plugged into the 3.2 Gen 1 (5Gbps) ports, which are tied to the chipset. Leaving the 3.2 Gen 2 (10Gbps) ports tied to the CPU free for devices that can actually benefit.

Just a datapoint. I know you postulated that your issue was related to the Nvidia card, while obviously this one is AMD. Also too early to know what performance differences there are between the X570S chipset and the original X570.

In other news, after 6+ months of working perfectly, since installing BIOS 4103 and the latest AMD Chipset drivers (the ones that fix issues on Win11, even though this is 10), my system is starting to do wonky stuff again, like failing to wake the display sometimes in the morning, or rebooting when I request a shutdown. Either of these require a hard power cycle to fix. But at least I don't have to dismantle it and remove the CMOS battery, like with the original issues. RAM is at 3600, but incredibly loose timings (CAS 26, vs. rated 16). Issues get worse (lockups during active use) with timings set properly, but don't go away completely even with everything at defaults (RAM at 2133). Gradually returning to the opinion that the X570 TUF Gaming is just a pile of crap.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Congrats! Glad to see that everything worked out. That's your Asus 5700XT GPU (this post), so I assume your PC has the new Asus GT 1030 GDDR5 installed.

Data points noted, thanks. As for stability, check Event Viewer for Critical events. I saw 3 events in the last few days which are this:
The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.
It's the same error that happened in my first build and I chalked it up to not cleanly stopping my folding@home app before shutting down the PC. I'm not running folding@home on this PC. (It's on my Linux build.)

It could be the overclocked memory. Or, it could be a stray symptom linked to the USB host controller. I'm starting to agree with your view about the Asus TUF Gaming motherboard.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:59 am Congrats! Glad to see that everything worked out. That's your Asus 5700XT GPU (this post), so I assume your PC has the new Asus GT 1030 GDDR5 installed.
Yep, went in without a hitch. Was surprised to see TweakII pick up the new card immediately upon boot. Shouldn't be, since they're both Asus cards, but it was interesting. Removed the Radeon and Aura Sync software, installed the Nvidia drivers, and good to go. GPU utilization hits around 40% when playing 4k video full-screen, which is about the most taxing thing I do regularly, so I'm good for the next 12-18 months until he can get the card he really wants. And in his new rig, my 5700XT absolutely smokes the mobile RTX 1060 in the gaming laptop he replaced. Plays all of his games with the settings cranked without any issue.
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 6:59 amData points noted, thanks. As for stability, check Event Viewer for Critical events. I saw 3 events in the last few days which are this:
The system has rebooted without cleanly shutting down first. This error could be caused if the system stopped responding, crashed, or lost power unexpectedly.
It's the same error that happened in my first build and I chalked it up to not cleanly stopping my folding@home app before shutting down the PC. I'm not running folding@home on this PC. (It's on my Linux build.)
Yeah I have plenty of those in the past 2 weeks, most of which I can directly correlate with times that I had to hard power-cycle the box because the video wouldn't come back. But nothing obvious preceding that in the log like the video driver crashing or anything.

Just for grins, once his box has had a couple of weeks to prove it's stable, we're going to swap RAM for a few weeks, see if my issues go away and/or if he starts to have problems. Should hopefully get me one step closer to a solution. He's got a specific SKU of the high-end Trident Z which seems to work great with anything. If I still have issues with his RAM installed, it's new Mobo time. If it works perfectly and he starts having issues, then I learned not to pinch pennies on memory, even if it's on the QVL (which my specific Ripjaws V is for the TUF Gaming and Ryzen 3000 processors, but not for his board and processor), and I'll just buy a second set of his blingy RAM. :)
tortoise84
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

lazydavid wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:01 am In other news, after 6+ months of working perfectly, since installing BIOS 4103 and the latest AMD Chipset drivers (the ones that fix issues on Win11, even though this is 10), my system is starting to do wonky stuff again, like failing to wake the display sometimes in the morning, or rebooting when I request a shutdown. Either of these require a hard power cycle to fix. But at least I don't have to dismantle it and remove the CMOS battery, like with the original issues. RAM is at 3600, but incredibly loose timings (CAS 26, vs. rated 16). Issues get worse (lockups during active use) with timings set properly, but don't go away completely even with everything at defaults (RAM at 2133). Gradually returning to the opinion that the X570 TUF Gaming is just a pile of crap.
Did you use Display Driver Uninstaller when changing your graphics card? https://www.wagnardsoft.com/

There could be some remnants of the old drivers that might cause issues.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

tortoise84 wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:05 pm
lazydavid wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:01 am In other news, after 6+ months of working perfectly, since installing BIOS 4103 and the latest AMD Chipset drivers (the ones that fix issues on Win11, even though this is 10), my system is starting to do wonky stuff again, like failing to wake the display sometimes in the morning, or rebooting when I request a shutdown. Either of these require a hard power cycle to fix. But at least I don't have to dismantle it and remove the CMOS battery, like with the original issues. RAM is at 3600, but incredibly loose timings (CAS 26, vs. rated 16). Issues get worse (lockups during active use) with timings set properly, but don't go away completely even with everything at defaults (RAM at 2133). Gradually returning to the opinion that the X570 TUF Gaming is just a pile of crap.
Did you use Display Driver Uninstaller when changing your graphics card? https://www.wagnardsoft.com/

There could be some remnants of the old drivers that might cause issues.
No but these problem long predate changing video cards.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95695
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

On a long shot, how old is the power supply? Failing a cold boot (what you do in the morning) or rebooting instead of a shutdown sounds like a transient problem.

A supply going out of regulation (voltage drops during load) would certainly cause wonky things to happen - especially during high current draw situations.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
lazydavid
Posts: 5155
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:59 pm On a long shot, how old is the power supply? Failing a cold boot (what you do in the morning) or rebooting instead of a shutdown sounds like a transient problem.
Doesn't fail a cold boot. I leave it running all the time, and occasionally when I go to use it in the morning, there's no display. But it's still running, and has logged events in the minutes leading up to my power cycle. The rebooting instead of shutting down appears to be a windows problem. When it happened, it recovered to the logon screen in about 3-4 seconds without going back through the POST process. I will reinstall when I get around to it.

PS is 10 or 12 years old, Corsair AX750 fully modular. Was dormant for about 6 years until I built this rig a year ago. Previously powered an i7-950 on a Gigabyte board.
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:59 pmA supply going out of regulation (voltage drops during load) would certainly cause wonky things to happen - especially during high current draw situations.
If anything, this happens during extremely light load. :)
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

madbrain wrote: Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:52 am So, the lowest I got from the Ryzen build was about 59W idle, after removing all the PCIe cards except the GPU, and disabling the light show on the motherboard. Turns out those are worth a couple watts ! I didn't try to disable the LEDs on the GPU. Maybe it's possible. This was in Win11.

Old 5820k machine idles at 125W with being fully loaded with all the large case fans, the boot NVMe SSD, 8 SATA SSDs, 4 optical drives, both CPU fans on the cooler, and all PCIe slots also full. Removing the overclock on both the RAM and CPU drove idle down to 110W. That was in Win10.

I'm going to unplug all but the GPU & NVMe and take one final reading to see the lowest it gets, before disassembling.
The 5820k system dropped to 66W idle after all PCIe cards and drives were removed except the NVMe boot drive. This was without OC. Not so different from the 57W low that the 5950X achieved under the same conditions.

I have finally finished the transplant to the big Cooler Master HAF 932 Advanced (HAF X) case. I decided to not just simply swap the motherboard / CPU / RAM, but significantly cleaned up the internals.

There was tons of cat fur inside everywhere in the case, some of which likely from cats that are no longer alive, to the extent that spraying compressed air wasn't enough. Fortunately, the case makes it very easy to remove devices. All but one of the six front 5.25 bays are removable with just clips, no screws. The other one just needs a single screw. The five internal 3.5 trays just slide out, again, screwlessly.

I took out all the drives in all of the bays. Of course, removing drives meant removing all the cable connections also, for both power and data.

The 14 SATA devices were almost all powered by Molex to SATA power adapters, for some reason. I'm trying to remember why I did it this way. Only thing I could think of was that modular PSU SATA cables might not have been long enough to reach all the drives. But it still doesn't explain it. I was able to eliminate the use of every single Molex to SATA power adapter, by just using all four modular SATA cables, that each offer four power connections. The dual drive icy dock only uses a single SATA power connector to power two drives, so 13 out of the 16 are in use, leaving 3 still available. The Corsair modular PSU cables are all black, which matches the case color - much better than the molex to SATA adapters which have 4 different color wires, and white connectors on one end.

For the data cables, I switched all 6 SATA data cables to the same color cables also, black. And used all latching connectors, with right angle downward connectors on the 4 SATA optical drives. I looped SATA data cables through multiple holes in the case, so that they don't stick out when trying to close to the right side of the case. I used black cable ties to attach them, also.

I reordered the 4 optical drives from the top to match the SATA port numbers, on the motherboard, so the first drive on top is port 1, second drive below is port 2, etc. Below that is the and reader. And then finally, the SATA dock hooked up to the last two SATA ports.

For the 8 internal SATA SSDs, the two mini SAS cables are black on the HBA side, and blue on the SATA side. The wire on the SATA side is much thinner and more flexible than SATA cables, making it much easier to do cable management.

One of the biggest issues of the night was that the tiny M2 screw that was holding my NVMe SSD to the old motherboard was not compatible with the hole in the new motherboard. It was too small of a screw. I checked dozens of screws of various sizes from my bags. None fit, all were too large. I remembered buying an M2 screw kit from Amazon last year. Sure enough, it was in my order history. But I just couldn't find it. Finally, a few google searches revealed that the M2 screws are actually specific to each motherboard and normally come bundled with the motherboard. I checked the box, and there was a bad with 4 tiny screws. One of them fit ! I installed the SSD in the M2_1 slot, the one which didn't have a heatsink on it, between the top x16 slot and the CPU.

I dealt with case wire also. I folded and tied back the front eSATA and Firewire cables that aren't connected to anything, so that they aren't left dangling randomly.

I tied all the case wires in a much better way, again routing them through holes on the case, and tying them to various parts of the case along the way. Those case wires and fan wires are the main remaining ones that aren't black, except for the USB 3.0 card reader cable, which is blue.

I connected both the front USB 2.0 headers, so all 4 USB ports built-in to the case work. HD audio is also connected, though I will probably never use any audio connectors from the front case.

I used cleaning wipes on all the case fan blades. The list is 140mm top rear fan, 230mm top fan, 230mm from bottom front fan. I had to take out the front fan to clean it. I broke the switch to turn the LEDs on/off in the process. Cooler Master no longer makes the Megaflow 230, and there are very few 230mm cases left on the market to replace it with. I found an old Megaflow 230 in my spare parts drawer. I checked it out, and the LEDs were very dim, nearly dead. So, I decided to leave it in the drawer. The LEDs in the front won't be missed too much, as they could barely be seen through the front grill. If Noctua made a 230mm model, I would replace it with that, but as it stands, I'll leave it as is.

I washed the front grill in water also, as compressed air just couldn't get rid of all the cat fur. Even then, there are still traces of it.

For the top fan, the wire was a bit loose and this was causing vibrations. I used a (black) fan extension cable to run it through case holes, and tied it to the case, creating some tension, and eliminating the vibrations.

For the top rear fan, the wire used to be loose and could touch the blades of the fans on the CPU cooler. It was also in the way of the top PCIe slot. I used another black fan extension cable to run it more cleanly around some of the heatsinks.

The 4th case fan is a Noctua NF-A20 200mm fan attached to the side panel. Its blades were nearly pristine when I wiped them. It is only 2.5 years old, though, while some of the other fans may be as much as 9 years old.

As far as PCIe slot arrangements, I decided to put the Aquantia NIC in the bottom PCIEX16_3 slot, which is actually an x4 slot. The RTX 3060Ti GPU covers the next two slots, x1 and x16. After that, I have the Firewire x1 card, Hauppauge x1 card, and finally the LSI x8 card.
Unfortunately, while the motherboard has 6 slots, one of the x1 slots is always covered by the GPU, unless one uses a single slot GPU. This means I would not be able to add another two SATA ports using PCIe to fill the remaining 3.5 internal tray with two additional Samsung 860 1TB SSDs, to expand my array from 8 to 10TB. It looks like the main way to connect an additional two SATA SSDs would be to use the internal USB 10 Gbps header with a SATA bridge, or use the M2_2 header with an adapter for multiple SATA, as another posted suggested in this thread earlier. I read reviews of a J-Micron model on Amazon, though, and sure enough, someone mentioned using this to add SATA HDDs for his ZFS array, and having the M2 adapter melt and destroy the M2 port on the motherboard. As I mentioned before, J-Micron is not a name I would trust. I wouldn't be using all 5 ports on that adapter, but even with two fast SSDs, the J-Micron adapter might still overheat. Maybe someone else makes a better M2 to SATA adapter ?
The M2_2 header is under the GPU, also, so I couldn't use it for SATA drives even with a good adapter. I would have to move the NVMe SSD to the M2_2 port under the GPU, which might not be optimal for heat, especially if I switch to a PCIe 4.0 SSD in the future.

Asus recommends putting the GPU in the top slot for performance reasons. However, I really don't want to run into the locked card issue again, requiring removal of the massive Noctua heatsink to remove the GPU. So, I left the GPU in the middle slot, where it's much easier to access to unlock mechanism.

I still had to use a modular cable to 4 Molex cable from the PSU just to power the Firewire card via Molex. Apparently, SATA to molex adapters exist to accomplish what's needed here, which is the reverse of the usual Molex to SATA.
https://www.amazon.com/12in-Molex-Power ... B00GK8SYCW .
Since there are 3 SATA power connectors still free, using this would allow removing one modular cable from the PSU, and make a little more spcae in the case. The adapter cable is not black, though, unlike the Corsair modular cable, so I will not be purchasing the adapter.

Regarding the third 4-pin CPU power connector on the motherboard, I was confused because Corsair only bundles two 8-pin power cables. Turns out those 8-pin cables can be split into two 4-pin as needed.
https://help.corsair.com/hc/en-us/artic ... n-CPU-port
So, I now have both the 8-pin and 4-pin power cables connected on the motherboard. Heavy overclocking, here I come.

Hardware wise, the only thing still not working with the build at this point is the top (3.5in) slot of my Icy dock MB971SP-B internal dock. This is not a new problem with this build, though. Technically, the issue is that dock intermittently will only power the bottom slot, but not the top one. Either a short, or an issue with the power switch for the top slot.

There are still a few connectors on the motherboards that are not in use. I will have to think of ways to remedy that this serious problem :) Those are the temperature sesnsor connector, water pump, addressable gen2 connectors, USB 3.2 gen2 header, Aura RGB headers, Node connector, TPM, 8-pin power plug LED.

Good news, I haven't had any more issues with the GPU not powering up as I did in the other case. So, I shouldn't have to undo this build.

One issue that caused me to reopen the case is that I had mixed up the Aquantia NICs I used. Changing the DHCP entry on the Comcast router is a PITA. And changing the MAC address in the entries for WOL software on phone and PCs in multiple places is work, too. It was just easier to physically swap the NIC back to the original one. Certainly one advantage of not relying on motherboard Ethernet, though, of course, you can technically set any MAC address you want in the driver settings and don't have to use the hardwired one.

I am really happy with the new build. It looks better on the inside than any computer I ever built, considering there are so many devices and cables in it. And yes, I'll be posting some pictures.

Worst news of the (very long) night - when I removed the old motherboard, I decided to remove the NH-D14 Noctua cooler, and also the CPU, so I could sell them separately. The cooler was very easy. When I pulled the 5820k CPU out of it, one of the pins on the motherboard just disintegrated before my eyes. At least, one that I saw. I have no idea if it's a pin that's actually used for something. I think maybe running 6 years at the max stable overclock I could find, which took literally weeks of running Prime95, might have caused the motherboard pins to become brittle. I have not tried to put the CPU back in and do a post test to see if the board still boots up or not. Even if it does, it's hard to say if problems would show up later during usage. So, I may not be able to get much for the used X99A Raider motherboard, as I have sell it as is. I should just have left the CPU on it and sold it as bundle. Sigh. I really hate the LGA designs. Pin issues force replacement of the motherboard, which is a lot of work, whereas replacing a bad CPU with broken pins is a lot less work. Of course, the CPU may cost more than the motherboard sometimes. That's not usually been the case for the PCs have built, except the ones that had dual CPUs (dual Pentium 1st generation, dual Athlon MP). In those cases, the cost of the motherboard was roughly equal to the cost of the pair of chips, as I recall. With the advent of multi-core CPUs, I have stopped considering the use of multi-CPU machines at home.
madbrain
Posts: 6809
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:06 pm
Location: San Jose, California

Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

madbrain wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:41 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:17 pm ^^^ I would agree. In theory, the Windows 10 HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer) keeps the hardware separated from the software. You can boot on any system and the HAL figures it out. In practice, I wouldn't trust it. Linux may be more forgiving from this aspect.

The hidden devices found in Device Manager (see quote below) are an example of what happens when you change hardware. Take a look at Device Manager --> View --> Show hidden devices (enable) Google is your friend. I removed the hidden devices manually, but you might be able to find a tool that does this automatically.
Thanks. It's really a ton of work to customize the OS from scratch. Much more than assembling the machine, unfortunately. But I'll consider it.
So, after the machine was built, I booted from the existing NVMe drive. Things started really badly. Very odd behavior, like Explorer hanging, Task manager not starting, or 5 copies starting at once, not being able to close it, system not shutting down. Everything short of a blue screen of death. I couldn't even unzip the chipset drivers after downloading them from AMD. I was about to give up.

I went through device manager and deleted every single hidden device that was disabled (greyed out), most of them start with the name "Intel". But I cleaned up all the previously seen USB devices, disk volumes, monitors, GPUs, etc, you name it. Probably hundreds of entries. Somehow, I was able to reboot successfully, and the disk was committed to. After that, I was able to download the AMD chipset drivers from Asus, and install them. The system has been running just fine since I did that. All the apps I have tried are working as before, only faster of course. I'm typing this message on the new system now. This may not be the way everyone recommends, but I recently did a full reinstall of the OS just in August, and customizing everything properly to my liking literally took weeks. I just wasn't ready to do it again so soon. I still have to redo my 3 monitor profiles with Spyder 5 Pro, as those are specific to the monitor/GPU combo. I'll probably go through the process again in a year the next time the OS becomes unusable beyond repair. I hope that's as late as possible. Interestingly, Windows hasn't complained about any activation issue, even though the hardware has changed significantly. Motherboard / CPU / RAM / GPU changed. All the other devices - a lot of them - remained the same.
Post Reply