PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

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kevinf
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by kevinf »

Independent George wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:25 pm
Reading the product page, it looks like the Kraken is not compatible with the 30 series.
That's unfortunate. However it does appear that several people have successfully modified the bracket via drill and/or dremel to fit on various 3000 series cards. It appears that mostly one needs to drill two new holes or simply trim off a little material in the right spots. If one is inclined enough to perform this mod in the first place, they'll probably be willing to take a few extra steps if need be :happy

But that's also a secondary reason I'm looking at an OEM AIO solution for my next GPU... Just less work overall.

I can't recommend AIO cooling for GPUs enough, my PC running full tilt is barely above a whisper. I distinctly remember the vacuum cleaner days of GPUs. Thankfully that's improved somewhat, but most air cooled GPUs these days are very noticeable when running full tilt regardless.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

I did finally buy a new video card.....but it's nowhere near as exciting as you would think.

B&H finally restocked their $99 Asus GT 1030 GDDR5. As best as I can tell, this is the lowest-end card on the market that can reliably support 4k output, with performance roughly equivalent to the onboard graphics in a 5600G or 5700G. But even at this low bar, prices are often inflated, and many of the cards on the market even at the $150+ price point are crippled with GDDR4 memory.

So why this card? My son has been planning for over a year to build a gaming desktop for Christmas this year. But in that time, we (like most of you) have not been able to find a reasonable GPU in stock at a non-usurious price. So the GT 1030 should meet MY needs for the PC I use for work every day, and he can take my 5700XT until such a time as we can get something near MSRP. He's hoping to find a 4070 or 4080 for an attainable price in late 2022 or early 2023, at which point I can have my card back.

In other news, my infuriatingly troublesome X570 TUF Gaming motherboard has been rock-stable in daily use for about 4 months now, even with my RAM running at PC3600 and IFCLK at 1800. I'm assuming my issues were due to a massive flaw in the BIOS firmware that was addressed by an update. So (knock wood), I'm no longer shopping for a new motherboard.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

kevinf wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 10:20 pm
Independent George wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 4:25 pm
Reading the product page, it looks like the Kraken is not compatible with the 30 series.
That's unfortunate. However it does appear that several people have successfully modified the bracket via drill and/or dremel to fit on various 3000 series cards. It appears that mostly one needs to drill two new holes or simply trim off a little material in the right spots. If one is inclined enough to perform this mod in the first place, they'll probably be willing to take a few extra steps if need be :happy

But that's also a secondary reason I'm looking at an OEM AIO solution for my next GPU... Just less work overall.

I can't recommend AIO cooling for GPUs enough, my PC running full tilt is barely above a whisper. I distinctly remember the vacuum cleaner days of GPUs. Thankfully that's improved somewhat, but most air cooled GPUs these days are very noticeable when running full tilt regardless.
If you're going to go so far as to drill & dremel the adapter, why would you not just build a custom loop at that point? Yes, it has a high capital cost, but the pump, reservoir, fittings, and radiators are all reusable for well over the life of the pc, and it gives you the flexibilty of radiator size & placement. Plugging soft tubing into standarized fittings is much, much easier than precision drilling, cutting, and beveling metal.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by kevinf »

You underestimate the raw power of my tin snips! Also one costs much less than the other :greedy
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

tortoise84 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 6:53 pm Great! Now the fun part begins! :D The Meshify C says max GPU 315 mm with front fan mounted so if you want to keep the same case you could use a 15 mm slim fan which will give you an extra 10 mm...
Yes, the Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX slim fan will work nicely. I'll have all of 9 mm to spare. Thanks!

9 mm = (25 mm stock fan) - (15 mm slim fan) - (315 mm max allowed length - 316 mm GPU spec length)

In summary, I was 1 mm over the max GPU length. Changing fans will fix this.
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:14 pm ^^^ Interesting suggestion, but I prefer air cooling. In any case, nothing this drastic will happen until the GPU is past it's 30 day return period or later - give it at least a few months. Never say never, however.

Back to memory, I've selected an (8 GB x 4) 3200 MHz configuration with G.Skill. Why G.Skill? I like the look and love the "Ripjaws" name and logo.

The Ryzen 7 5800x maximum supported (not overclocked) frequency is 3200 MHz.

My choice is the F4-3200C16Q-32GVKB DDR4-3200MHz (CL16-18-18-38 1.35V). It's on the Asus Qualified Vendor List. Newegg price: $191.78

Better performance is with the F4-3200C16Q-32GVK DDR4-3200MHz (CL16-16-16-36 1.35V). This part is not on the QVL. Newegg price: $349.00 That's a huge price increase and doesn't seem worth it.
So much for plans. My build last year used 2 RAM slots and they were inserted in the slot pairing that's further from the CPU. I did that because it was nearly impossible to fit the RAM stick in the closest slot position.

The definition of experience: Recognizing when you are about to make the same mistake again.

Based on my experience with the first build, I checked clearances. The Noctua fan cooler height is 41 mm off the base. The height of the G.Skill Ripjaws module is 42 mm. I exceed the available radiator clearance by 1 mm. :oops:

The Ripjaws product line is designed for low module heights to accommodate the larger heat exchangers used for CPU cooling. Going to a different model means higher module heights. That won't work.

For the want of 1 mm, I am changing my perspective and will proceed with liquid cooling. It was about time, anyway. :wink:

I'll do my own research, but am open to suggestions.
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kevinf
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by kevinf »

The Artic Freezer AIOs get good reviews, I'd check out Gamer's Nexus on YouTube again if you want to see the tests.

Some of the cold plates have a small fan to help cool the nearby components.

I've been using Corsairs and NZXT and have no complaints. Use good thermal paste (Artic mx5 is good)!
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:36 am So much for plans. My build last year used 2 RAM slots and they were inserted in the slot pairing that's further from the CPU. I did that because it was nearly impossible to fit the RAM stick in the closest slot position.

The definition of experience: Recognizing when you are about to make the same mistake again.

Based on my experience with the first build, I checked clearances. The Noctua fan cooler height is 41 mm off the base. The height of the G.Skill Ripjaws module is 42 mm. I exceed the available radiator clearance by 1 mm. :oops:

The Ripjaws product line is designed for low module heights to accommodate the larger heat exchangers used for CPU cooling. Going to a different model means higher module heights. That won't work.

For the want of 1 mm, I am changing my perspective and will proceed with liquid cooling. It was about time, anyway. :wink:

I'll do my own research, but am open to suggestions.
The one problem with the Ripjaws is how tall they are in the middle; the Corsair Vengeance LPX line of memory sticks are only 31mm tall, and are popular enough that they should be on the QVL list.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:36 am So much for plans. My build last year used 2 RAM slots and they were inserted in the slot pairing that's further from the CPU. I did that because it was nearly impossible to fit the RAM stick in the closest slot position.

The definition of experience: Recognizing when you are about to make the same mistake again.

Based on my experience with the first build, I checked clearances. The Noctua fan cooler height is 41 mm off the base. The height of the G.Skill Ripjaws module is 42 mm. I exceed the available radiator clearance by 1 mm. :oops:

The Ripjaws product line is designed for low module heights to accommodate the larger heat exchangers used for CPU cooling. Going to a different model means higher module heights. That won't work.

For the want of 1 mm, I am changing my perspective and will proceed with liquid cooling. It was about time, anyway. :wink:

I'll do my own research, but am open to suggestions.
Which CPU cooler do you have? The Noctua NH-U12S? You might be able to simply move the fan clips a bit higher to clear the RAM.

Anyway 2 x 16GB *dual rank* is close to the performance of 4 x 8GB single rank in the tests I have seen. But they also make 2 x 16GB single rank which is slower, so if you go this route make sure you get dual rank modules. Also, you'll lose some performance by only using 3200 MHz RAM especially with Ryzen because your Infinity Fabric will operate at 1600 MHz instead of 1800 MHz with 3600 RAM.

For water cooling I use the Arctic Liquid Freezer II 120mm on my 5600X and it's great. All cores can sustain 4.65 GHz in Cinebench R23 at 78C. But for a 5800X you'll probably need a 240mm or larger radiator. Note that the Arctic radiators are thicker at 38mm and the tubes are very thick, inflexible and don't rotate. When mounted in the top of my Cooler Master NR400 case, it overhangs the top of the motherboard and comes down to less than 1mm from the RAM modules, so these are more clearances that you have to check. You could mount the radiator in the front but it may not be optimal because:

1. It's best to mount tubes down so that any air bubbles collect at the other (top) end of the radiator, and so the pump won't suck up those air bubbles which can damage it. However, the Arctic tubes are very inflexible and may not even be long enough to reach the bottom section of the case.

2. A radiator intaking air at the front also means you are now blowing warmed air at your GPU, and the radiator also greatly reduces the air flow.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am Which CPU cooler do you have? The Noctua NH-U12S? You might be able to simply move the fan clips a bit higher to clear the RAM.
Yes. Unfortunately, the fan is mounted orthogonal to the CPU. Air flow is across the CPU. Changing the clips won't help. I was going to use the Noctua NH-U14S for the Ryzen 7 5800X.

It seems my choices are:

- Use what I had before - (2 x 16 GB) at 3600 MHz and stay with air cooling. This limits my options for expanding into 4 slots.
- Get lower height RAM that's not on the QVL and stay with air cooling. I'm very hesitant to be forced into one brand (Corsair Vengeance LPX).

- Go with liquid cooling and choose any RAM on the QVL (3200 MHz or 3600 MHz).
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am 2. A radiator intaking air at the front also means you are now blowing warmed air at your GPU, and the radiator also greatly reduces the air flow.
Good point. I need to look at the case limitations to see how everything fits. Air cooling might be a better choice.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:35 pm
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am Which CPU cooler do you have? The Noctua NH-U12S? You might be able to simply move the fan clips a bit higher to clear the RAM.
Yes. Unfortunately, the fan is mounted orthogonal to the CPU. Air flow is across the CPU. Changing the clips won't help. I was going to use the Noctua NH-U14S for the Ryzen 7 5800X.

It seems my choices are:

- Use what I had before - (2 x 16 GB) at 3600 MHz and stay with air cooling. This limits my options for expanding into 4 slots.
- Get lower height RAM that's not on the QVL and stay with air cooling. I'm very hesitant to be forced into one brand (Corsair Vengeance LPX).

- Go with liquid cooling and choose any RAM on the QVL (3200 MHz or 3600 MHz).
Which motherboard are you using again? There have to be more memory sticks that fit; tower coolers that overhang the memory slots are incredibly common.
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am 2. A radiator intaking air at the front also means you are now blowing warmed air at your GPU, and the radiator also greatly reduces the air flow.
Good point. I need to look at the case limitations to see how everything fits. Air cooling might be a better choice.
I'm skeptical that this has a noticeable effect on cooling; loop order makes no difference in a water-cooled rig, so I'm skeptical that air slightly warmed after being blown across a radiator will have any significant effect on a GPU. Also keep in mind that the GPU fans will suck in cool air from the PCIE slots right below the GPU.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:21 pm I'm skeptical that this has a noticeable effect on cooling; loop order makes no difference in a water-cooled rig, so I'm skeptical that air slightly warmed after being blown across a radiator will have any significant effect on a GPU. Also keep in mind that the GPU fans will suck in cool air from the PCIE slots right below the GPU.
To be clear, I'm talking about an AIO water cooled CPU and an air cooled GPU.

Here's a test that shows:
Front mounted radiator: avg GPU temp 84.6C, avg clock speed 1864MHz (so it's thermal throttling)
Top mounted radiator and adding 2 x 120mm front intake fans: GPU temp 72.8C, avg clock speed 1920MHz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-9pZT2IiO4&t=795s

And this test shows:
Front mounted radiator (fans at 800rpm) and 2 x 140mm top exhaust fans: GPU 83C so it's likely thermal throttling. The CPU is lower however at 67C. You can bring the GPU down to 78C by increasing the radiator fans to 1650rpm, but you'll also increase the noise.

Top mounted radiator (fans at 800rpm) and 2 x 140mm front intake fans: GPU 77C, but the CPU is hotter at 72C which is still fine.

https://youtu.be/bL5IsxzpiCA?t=781
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:35 pm
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am Which CPU cooler do you have? The Noctua NH-U12S? You might be able to simply move the fan clips a bit higher to clear the RAM.
Yes. Unfortunately, the fan is mounted orthogonal to the CPU. Air flow is across the CPU. Changing the clips won't help. I was going to use the Noctua NH-U14S for the Ryzen 7 5800X.

It seems my choices are:

- Use what I had before - (2 x 16 GB) at 3600 MHz and stay with air cooling. This limits my options for expanding into 4 slots.
- Get lower height RAM that's not on the QVL and stay with air cooling. I'm very hesitant to be forced into one brand (Corsair Vengeance LPX).

- Go with liquid cooling and choose any RAM on the QVL (3200 MHz or 3600 MHz).
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am 2. A radiator intaking air at the front also means you are now blowing warmed air at your GPU, and the radiator also greatly reduces the air flow.
Good point. I need to look at the case limitations to see how everything fits. Air cooling might be a better choice.
I would not go with non QVL ram if it was my build. I'd go with a bigger case.

When you say "liquid cooling" your really meaning a AIO right? Those are easy to install just make sure it has 2 140mil fans. The thing about AIO is there not any more efficient than a good air cooler it's just quieter (with those good 140mil fans). If your looking for better than air cooling it will have to be a custom loop with a reservoir & radiator at that point it's night at day cooling differences.

If your curious about building custom loops check out some of SingularityComputers older builds on youtube
(https://www.youtube.com/c/SingularityComputers). Yes he's an odd duck but he builds some of the best high end loops out there and has his own brand of reservoirs on Amazon that I always recommend (I use them when I build people custom systems).

I would skip his custom Spectre builds as those are his own specialized cases. Check out his playlists for the older "Build #30-38" stuff.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:21 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:35 pm
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am Which CPU cooler do you have? The Noctua NH-U12S? You might be able to simply move the fan clips a bit higher to clear the RAM.
Yes. Unfortunately, the fan is mounted orthogonal to the CPU. Air flow is across the CPU. Changing the clips won't help. I was going to use the Noctua NH-U14S for the Ryzen 7 5800X.

It seems my choices are:

- Use what I had before - (2 x 16 GB) at 3600 MHz and stay with air cooling. This limits my options for expanding into 4 slots.
- Get lower height RAM that's not on the QVL and stay with air cooling. I'm very hesitant to be forced into one brand (Corsair Vengeance LPX).

- Go with liquid cooling and choose any RAM on the QVL (3200 MHz or 3600 MHz).
Which motherboard are you using again? There have to be more memory sticks that fit; tower coolers that overhang the memory slots are incredibly common.
tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:52 am 2. A radiator intaking air at the front also means you are now blowing warmed air at your GPU, and the radiator also greatly reduces the air flow.
Good point. I need to look at the case limitations to see how everything fits. Air cooling might be a better choice.
I'm skeptical that this has a noticeable effect on cooling; loop order makes no difference in a water-cooled rig, so I'm skeptical that air slightly warmed after being blown across a radiator will have any significant effect on a GPU. Also keep in mind that the GPU fans will suck in cool air from the PCIE slots right below the GPU.
The trick there is to use your top fans for out-take as hot air moves upwards. Pull cool air from front and bottom or at least the front and back.
The best way to do an AIO is using negative pressure case builds by limiting intake from the front but that's getting complicated.

If it's a custom loop then none of that matters.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:21 pm Which motherboard are you using again? There have to be more memory sticks that fit; tower coolers that overhang the memory slots are incredibly common.
brad.clarkston wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:34 pm I would not go with non QVL ram if it was my build. I'd go with a bigger case.

When you say "liquid cooling" your really meaning a AIO right? Those are easy to install just make sure it has 2 140mil fans. The thing about AIO is there not any more efficient than a good air cooler it's just quieter (with those good 140mil fans). If your looking for better than air cooling it will have to be a custom loop with a reservoir & radiator at that point it's night at day cooling differences.
It's the Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus (AM4 socket). My intent is to duplicate as much of my first build as possible so I'll have common parts.

Everything came to a grinding halt when I noticed that my chosen NH-U14S CPU cooler has a maximum height clearance of 41 mm over the CPU. That's not compatible with the G.Skill Ripjaws module height of 42 mm. If I had noticed this in the first build, I would have done this differently.

I agree on sticking with parts on the motherboard Qualified Vendor List. In this case, it's the Asus QVL for Ryzen 5000 series processors.

I used a 3600 MHz part on my build last year because it was on the QVL for the Ryzen 3000 series processors. I was successful in overclocking the motherboard from 3200 to 3600 MHz - most likely because it was a qualified part. That same part is not on the QVL for the Ryzen 5000 series processors.

I did further research and found exactly one Corsair 32 GB RAM configuration on the QVL VENGEANCE® LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4 DRAM 3200MHz. The module height is 34 mm, so it will fit. Google suggests that Corsair RAM (Micron die) is a single-rank design.

There are a lot of choices in the G.Skill product line and I wanted to stay with that.

On AIO coolers -
I started looking at all-in-one liquid coolers (on a learning curve here, sorry about the terminology confusion), but didn't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it. The only reason for liquid cooling was to fix a 1 mm fit problem between the G.Skill Ripjaws RAM and the Noctua fan. I could get this to work, but for little, likely no, benefit over an air-cooled CPU.

Back to air cooling -
OK, what are my cooling fan options besides Noctua? I found this: SHADOW ROCK TF 2 from bequiet.com. It's exactly what I was looking for and is compatible with my motherboard and Fractal Design Meshify C case. The air flow is horizontal instead of vertical (what the Noctua does with a vertical mount motherboard), but I don't think it will hurt anything. The radiator clearance height is 49 mm over the RAM slots. That'll work with the G.Skill Ripjaws.

I then selected the G.Skill Ripjaws (8 GB x 4) 3200 MHz configuration that's in the QVL. F4-3200C16Q-32GVKB-G.SKILL I know it will work in the "stock" configuration and can try overclocking at a later time.

That should do it. I'll have a quiet front case fan (Noctua 15 mm slim) and quiet CPU cooler fan. My GPU card is arriving in a few days...
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

Be.quiet makes good air coolers it might be a bit louder due to the horizontal posture but probably not enough care. Just make sure to look at your total case air flow as that cooler is a bit different than standard vertical units. The Meshify C is pretty good on air flow out of the box so that's not a big worry.

Not sure if you ran that cooler through there motherboard check ( https://www.bequiet.com/en/motherboardcheck ) but it's showing compatible with a 160w max, the 5800X clocks in at 105w average.

What are you using for storage and PSU? That's a pretty beefy setup so far, pcpartpicker.com is showing it setting at 400w's without 2 or 3 SSD's.


PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 3.8 GHz 8-Core Processor ($409.99 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Shadow Rock TF 2 CPU Cooler ($59.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Asus TUF GAMING X570-PLUS ATX AM4 Motherboard ($179.99 @ B&H)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($190.14 @ Amazon)
Video Card: MSI GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB VENTUS 2X OC Video Card
Case: Fractal Design Meshify C ATX Mid Tower Case ($99.98 @ Newegg)
Total: $940.00
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-10-10 23:28 EDT-0400
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:55 pm It's the Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus (AM4 socket). My intent is to duplicate as much of my first build as possible so I'll have common parts.

Everything came to a grinding halt when I noticed that my chosen NH-U14S CPU cooler has a maximum height clearance of 41 mm over the CPU. That's not compatible with the G.Skill Ripjaws module height of 42 mm. If I had noticed this in the first build, I would have done this differently.
I'm still not sure what the issue is. The NH-U12S should not overhang the RAM slots. I have tried to draw the closest RAM slot in this image with the red rectangles. On the right image, notice how it sits just outside the green AMD socket zone, and the fan only just exceeds the AMD zone.

Image

For the left image, the fan overlap actually should not matter since the RAM is in front of the fan. But if somehow it is still too close, then you can move the fan in the direction of the red arrow.

Now for the larger NH-U14S, you could have problems because the fan does indeed overlap outside the green AMD zone into the closest RAM slot. (It also overlaps with the top PCI-E slot but fortunately this usually isn't used on most ATX motherboards; only Micro ATX).

Image

The 41mm is actually to the bottom of the radiator, and the fan extends quite a bit below that as indicted by the red hash marks, so there isn't much you can do, except mount the fan on the other side.

So if you want to stick with Noctua, I would recommend a NH-U12A with both front and rear fans. Noctua's Standardised Performance Rating (NSPR) says the NH-U12A has a rating of 169, while the NH-U14S has a rating of 162 so they are about the same. The NH-U12S single fan has a rating of 129 so it might not be enough for a 5800X.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:32 pm
Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:21 pm I'm skeptical that this has a noticeable effect on cooling; loop order makes no difference in a water-cooled rig, so I'm skeptical that air slightly warmed after being blown across a radiator will have any significant effect on a GPU. Also keep in mind that the GPU fans will suck in cool air from the PCIE slots right below the GPU.
To be clear, I'm talking about an AIO water cooled CPU and an air cooled GPU.

Here's a test that shows:
Front mounted radiator: avg GPU temp 84.6C, avg clock speed 1864MHz (so it's thermal throttling)
Top mounted radiator and adding 2 x 120mm front intake fans: GPU temp 72.8C, avg clock speed 1920MHz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-9pZT2IiO4&t=795s

And this test shows:
Front mounted radiator (fans at 800rpm) and 2 x 140mm top exhaust fans: GPU 83C so it's likely thermal throttling. The CPU is lower however at 67C. You can bring the GPU down to 78C by increasing the radiator fans to 1650rpm, but you'll also increase the noise.

Top mounted radiator (fans at 800rpm) and 2 x 140mm front intake fans: GPU 77C, but the CPU is hotter at 72C which is still fine.

https://youtu.be/bL5IsxzpiCA?t=781
Huh. I stand corrected. I am genuinely surprised by this, but the more I think of it, the more it makes sense - ambient temperature definitely affects temperature, and if the only source of air to the GPU is the inside of the case, then it effectively increases ambient. I do wonder if that could be mitigated by adding two top mount fans exhausting the hot air out the top (and also sucking in additional cold air from the back of the case). Alternately, you could also exhaust out the front (through the radiator) and intake from the top to create positive pressure.

Right now, my custom loop is a bit janky in that I have 3x120's blowing in on a 360 radiator in front, but the 240 radiator up top is too thick (30mm) to mount exhaust fans. So instead, I set the rear 120 to intake, to create more positive pressure inside the case to force it to escape through the top radiator. If/when I upgrade my GPU, I'll swap the top radiator for a 20mm version, which would leave just barely enough room for NF-A12x15's. Really, I probably don't need the 240, but it's fun to go overkill.

Anyway, for high-end fan nerds, it looks like the new king is the Phanteks T-30. I will note three things, though:

1. These are 30mm thick rather than the standard 25mm form factor.
2. They're a dirty grey color.
3. They cost $40 each (compared to the $30 for the NF-A12).

I bring those points up because Noctua has always been knocked for being ugly, expensive, and slow to produce. The fact that the T-30 is thicker, more expensive, and grey tells me that Phanteks has encountered the exact same problems in production that Noctua has. The fans are grey (arguably better than brown, but still not as sexy as black or white) probably because it's really, really difficult to change the color of the liquid crystal polymer blades without sacrificing rigidity. That they are 30mm thick tells me they could not get the same level of performance at the standard 25mm thickness. And that they're $40 tells me that it must have been really, really expensive to put these into production.

If anyone could make a competitor to the NF-A12 that is cheaper and prettier without losing performance, they would absolutely corner the premium fan market. Heck, Noctua themselves know that black fans will sell much better than a brown one; the fact that it takes so long to get the chromax fans to market isn't because they're dumb, but because it's probably really difficult to produce without sacrificing quality.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:21 pm
Huh. I stand corrected. I am genuinely surprised by this, but the more I think of it, the more it makes sense - ambient temperature definitely affects temperature, and if the only source of air to the GPU is the inside of the case, then it effectively increases ambient. I do wonder if that could be mitigated by adding two top mount fans exhausting the hot air out the top (and also sucking in additional cold air from the back of the case). Alternately, you could also exhaust out the front (through the radiator) and intake from the top to create positive pressure.
When ever possible you want to exhaust out of the top unless your stuck with a small 120m fan only (looking at your NZXT).

The better method would be push air from two 140's out of the top, pull air in with 2 140's from the front and then calculate your CFM for the final fan on the back depending on which is higher. Remember air flows in and out of the case from the expansion card cut outs so you can ether push or pull air via that method as well (that's why the NZXT H510's work reasonably well).

Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:21 pm
Anyway, for high-end fan nerds, it looks like the new king is the Phanteks T-30. I will note three things, though:

1. These are 30mm thick rather than the standard 25mm form factor.
2. They're a dirty grey color.
3. They cost $40 each (compared to the $30 for the NF-A12).
We will have to agree to disagree on those T-30's I'm not a fan :wink:

I'll take the Noctua NF-P12 and 14's (1700 PWM not the 1500) over them any day of the week. People tend to get wrapped up in fans a bit to much the more important thing is to stop using the motherboard for fan curves let alone those horrible controllers from the mobo manufacturers.

At a minimum I'll use a Aquacomputer Quadro PWM Fan Controller and/or a Farbwerk to control fan and rgb as there software and sensor's are far better than any mobo.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:55 pm
I agree on sticking with parts on the motherboard Qualified Vendor List. In this case, it's the Asus QVL for Ryzen 5000 series processors.

I used a 3600 MHz part on my build last year because it was on the QVL for the Ryzen 3000 series processors. I was successful in overclocking the motherboard from 3200 to 3600 MHz - most likely because it was a qualified part. That same part is not on the QVL for the Ryzen 5000 series processors.

I did further research and found exactly one Corsair 32 GB RAM configuration on the QVL VENGEANCE® LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4 DRAM 3200MHz. The module height is 34 mm, so it will fit. Google suggests that Corsair RAM (Micron die) is a single-rank design.

There are a lot of choices in the G.Skill product line and I wanted to stay with that.
I found a few more Corsair SKUs at 3200 and CL16 on page 13:

CMK16GX4M2B3200C16W - 2x8 GB (Samsung)
CMK16GX4M2B3200C16R - 2x8 GB (Samsung)

They don't sell these in sets of four, but you can put two sets of two in them for 32 GB (that's what I did on my rig). From what I can tell, it appears the 'W' suffix is for white memory sticks, 'R' is for red, and black has no suffix at all (but isn't listed on the QVL). Newegg has the black sticks for $72, and the white ones for $95.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by kevinf »

brad.clarkston wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 6:37 pm The trick there is to use your top fans for out-take as hot air moves upwards. Pull cool air from front and bottom or at least the front and back.
The best way to do an AIO is using negative pressure case builds by limiting intake from the front but that's getting complicated.
brad.clarkston wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:50 pm When ever possible you want to exhaust out of the top unless your stuck with a small 120m fan only (looking at your NZXT).
Forced air circulation will vastly overpower any convection or stack effect caused by temperature differentials. It doesn't matter where your exhaust or intakes are unless you are attempting to go passive cooling.

In fact, I prefer to intake from the top because it doesn't suck up as much dust from the floor. My front mounted RAD is set to exhaust out the front via 3 120mm fans, I have two 140mm fans as intake in the top, and one 120mm fan as an exhaust in the rear. I have the two top 140s running faster than the 4 total 120s do to roughly balance intake/exhaust flow.

Even when I was running a much hotter CPU that had a RAD under the top intake fans, the thermals were excellent for the CPU and GPU and both stayed under 60c running full tilt.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

tortoise84 wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:41 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:55 pm It's the Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus (AM4 socket). My intent is to duplicate as much of my first build as possible so I'll have common parts.

Everything came to a grinding halt when I noticed that my chosen NH-U14S CPU cooler has a maximum height clearance of 41 mm over the CPU. That's not compatible with the G.Skill Ripjaws module height of 42 mm. If I had noticed this in the first build, I would have done this differently.
I'm still not sure what the issue is. The NH-U12S should not overhang the RAM slots...
Thanks for the detailed info, much appreciated. I figured out what the problem was late last night and didn't see your post until this morning. The issue is human error - mine.

In this tower configuration, the GPU card fans are below the CPU and pointed vertically. I wanted the CPU air flow to go in the same direction and oriented the fan accordingly. The fan is rotated 90 degrees from where it should have been placed and the radiator overhangs the RAM slots. I was wondering why I had very little room for the RAM and didn't think anything was wrong. Now, I know I did something wrong. :)

There's more than enough ventilation to draw air from the front of the case. I'm not going to fix the fan orientation because that would involve a major rework which requires separation of the CPU from the cooler plate. I've already done that once before when I replaced the motherboard. I won't do it again.

Now that I know what I did wrong (and why), I looked your suggested NH-U12A, but didn't see the detailed dimension drawing. I then looked at the video. The Noctua NH-U12A: technical backgrounds video was particular enlightening, as they specifically address the RAM compatibility problem. Also note they are explicitly comparing it to the NH-U14S.

The NH-U12A is heavier than the NH-U14S. It's also $30 more than the NH-U14S. However, the video convinced me. I'll go with the NH-U12A. Thanks!
Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:55 pm I found a few more Corsair SKUs at 3200 and CL16 on page 13:
Yes, I also found a few more. Based on the fun time I had getting my 3600 MHz RAM to work last year, I really, really want to stay on the QVL.
brad.clarkston wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:32 pm What are you using for storage and PSU? That's a pretty beefy setup so far, pcpartpicker.com is showing it setting at 400w's without 2 or 3 SSD's.
Based on the above, here's what I ended up with:
  • CPU - AMD Ryzen 5800X
  • CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U12A
  • Motherboard - Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus (AM4)
  • GPU - MSI Ventus GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB
  • RAM - G.Skill RIpjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) F4-3200C16Q-32GVKB
  • Storage - Samsung 980 Pro M.2 2280 1 TB PCIe Gen 4.0
  • PSU - Seasonic Focus Plus 650 Gold SSR-750FX 750W 80+ ATX12V Fully modular
  • Case - Fractal Design Meshify C Black
  • Case fan - Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX, Premium Quiet Slim Fan, 3-pin (have 4 pin on motherboard, but is compatible)
  • UPS - APC BR1350MS 1350 VA Pure SineWave
- I'm selecting parts that duplicate what I built last year.
- My current build has the (SATA) SSDs from the failed PC (why I'm doing this new build). I'll move them to the new build.
- I may swap my current M.2 SSD (Windows OS, Samsung 970 Pro, PCIe Gen 3.0) with the new M.2 Samsung 980 Pro. I'll see how it goes.

Thanks to everyone for the help. I'll order the parts later today.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

Noctua is so good with their documentation and presentation. Heck, just look at their merch - they use the same naming schemes and have detailed measurements listed under the 'Service' tab! It would be utterly hilarious if they also come with an installation manual written & illustrated in the Noctua style...

I have the U-12A, and it's brilliant.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:21 am Yes, I also found a few more. Based on the fun time I had getting my 3600 MHz RAM to work last year, I really, really want to stay on the QVL.
As you know, I had the same problems you did, with the same motherboard and (I think) processor. Those were resolved over the summer by a BIOS upgrade. On that note, the RAM I'm using: https://www.gskill.com/qvl/165/184/1562 ... 32GVKC-Qvl is on the QVL for that 5000-series processors installed on that specific board.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

lazydavid wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:04 am
LadyGeek wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:21 am Yes, I also found a few more. Based on the fun time I had getting my 3600 MHz RAM to work last year, I really, really want to stay on the QVL.
As you know, I had the same problems you did, with the same motherboard and (I think) processor. Those were resolved over the summer by a BIOS upgrade. On that note, the RAM I'm using: https://www.gskill.com/qvl/165/184/1562 ... 32GVKC-Qvl is on the QVL for that 5000-series processors installed on that specific board.
That's odd when I look them up your C revision isn't on the QVL for that mobo

MSI PRO B550-A PRO AM4 AMD B550

F4-3600C16D-16GVK
F4-3600C16D-32GVKC

The only difference is how many memory modules per stick. The "K" has 2x8 while the "KC" is 2x16 that's also the reason for the "KC's" slightly slower CL rating. The thing about QVL lists that I do not like is the manufacturers do not say if they tested other memory or not. A failed test is a better data point but that would probably irk the memory makers.

Did they test the "KC" version and found it lacking? Or did they not test it at all? I'm betting they didn't test it as it's just a doubled up memory module of the "K" version but that question can be a big issue.

I build around a dozen high end gaming system a year for customers and memory is always the killer component. Hard tube loops are just fun to build but matching and testing 32gig or 64gig memory is not. I can't wait until some knuckle head wants me to build a alder lake system with 128gig's of DDR5 and I have to match that nightmare.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:04 am As you know, I had the same problems you did, with the same motherboard and (I think) processor...
Yes, I think we both had a frustrating time with that.

Here's the Asus source: TUF GAMING X570-PLUS|Motherboards|ASUS USA

- In the QVL: F4-3600C14D-32GVK (CL14-15-15-35 1.45V 32GB (2x16GB)) $325 at Newegg (out of stock)

- Not in the QVL: F4-3600C16D-32GVKC (CL16-19-19-39 1.35V 32GB (2x16GB)) $162.99 at Newegg (in stock)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

Independent George wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:21 pm Huh. I stand corrected. I am genuinely surprised by this, but the more I think of it, the more it makes sense - ambient temperature definitely affects temperature, and if the only source of air to the GPU is the inside of the case, then it effectively increases ambient. I do wonder if that could be mitigated by adding two top mount fans exhausting the hot air out the top (and also sucking in additional cold air from the back of the case). Alternately, you could also exhaust out the front (through the radiator) and intake from the top to create positive pressure.

Right now, my custom loop is a bit janky in that I have 3x120's blowing in on a 360 radiator in front, but the 240 radiator up top is too thick (30mm) to mount exhaust fans. So instead, I set the rear 120 to intake, to create more positive pressure inside the case to force it to escape through the top radiator. If/when I upgrade my GPU, I'll swap the top radiator for a 20mm version, which would leave just barely enough room for NF-A12x15's. Really, I probably don't need the 240, but it's fun to go overkill.
I have found that fans have the best effect only in their immediate vicinity. So for an air cooled GPU, ideally you would want a case fan or two (in addition to the GPU fans) blowing cool air directly at the GPU. I have also seen people put an 80mm fan in the PCI-E slots under the GPU as an intake or exhaust, see which one works better.

I have also found that fan performance drops off a lot when there's resistance. So when you have a front radiator, not only is it blowing warm air at the GPU, but the radiator also decreases the air flow a lot. I don't think it's sufficient to expect the GPU fans to suck in cool air through the PCI-E slot covers because they also add some resistance so the fans would rather suck air from areas inside the case with less resistance, which will be the warm air coming through the front radiator.

Combining these two observations, I would reason that adding two top exhaust fans would not be that effective at drawing air in because they are too far from the GPU, there is too much resistance to incoming air from the front radiator and PCI-E slot covers, and there is still no fan blowing cool air directly at the GPU. Instead, I see the primary function of exhaust fans is to expel hot air out of the case, and ideally to do this before it can be taken in by another component such as a CPU air cooler or top mount radiator. Of course, this isn't always possible where we saw an increase in CPU temps with a top mounted radiator due to heat from the GPU. So either way is a trade-off and I would rather choose a top mounted radiator because the GPU outputs far more heat so it needs better cooling, while the CPU can still be kept within temp limits.

For your custom loop, actually the air temps around the GPU and CPU don't really matter since they are water cooled anyway. But your top 240mm radiator won't be doing much without any fans directly on it because there is too much distance from the other fans, and too much resistance which will just cause the other fans to lose performance and reduce air flow even further.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:21 am Thanks for the detailed info, much appreciated. I figured out what the problem was late last night and didn't see your post until this morning. The issue is human error - mine.

In this tower configuration, the GPU card fans are below the CPU and pointed vertically. I wanted the CPU air flow to go in the same direction and oriented the fan accordingly. The fan is rotated 90 degrees from where it should have been placed and the radiator overhangs the RAM slots. I was wondering why I had very little room for the RAM and didn't think anything was wrong. Now, I know I did something wrong. :)
No worries. Actually I didn't realize that the Noctua coolers could be mounted with the airflow going bottom to top on AMD, so I looked into it and found this video where they didn't find any significant difference in temps:
https://youtu.be/O1WGlPrH4IU
LadyGeek wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:21 am Based on the above, here's what I ended up with:
  • CPU - AMD Ryzen 5800X
  • CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U12A
  • Motherboard - Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus (AM4)
  • GPU - MSI Ventus GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB
  • RAM - G.Skill RIpjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) F4-3200C16Q-32GVKB
  • Storage - Samsung 980 Pro M.2 2280 1 TB PCIe Gen 4.0
  • PSU - Seasonic Focus Plus 650 Gold SSR-750FX 750W 80+ ATX12V Fully modular
  • Case - Fractal Design Meshify C Black
  • Case fan - Noctua NF-A12x15 FLX, Premium Quiet Slim Fan, 3-pin (have 4 pin on motherboard, but is compatible)
  • UPS - APC BR1350MS 1350 VA Pure SineWave
- I'm selecting parts that duplicate what I built last year.
- My current build has the (SATA) SSDs from the failed PC (why I'm doing this new build). I'll move them to the new build.
- I may swap my current M.2 SSD (Windows OS, Samsung 970 Pro, PCIe Gen 3.0) with the new M.2 Samsung 980 Pro. I'll see how it goes.

Thanks to everyone for the help. I'll order the parts later today.
Looks good but I would consider getting an 850W or 1000W PSU. I tried running my 400W 3080 Ti on a 650W SFX PSU and it kept crashing to desktop in games, even when I reduced the GPU power limit to 300W. Apparently there are transient power spikes in the GPU that the PSU couldn't handle even though I was under 650W. So I got an EVGA SuperNOVA 1000W G6 for $162 and haven't had any more problems. PSUs are generally most efficient at 50% load, and also for this PSU the fan curve is dependent on the load so at 50-60% load it's whisper quiet.

Also I would just get the Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM 4-pin fan since it's the same price and you get better speed control with PWM:
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-A12x15-PWM-Premium-Quiet/dp/B071W6HJP6/
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

tortoise84 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:50 pm Looks good but I would consider getting an 850W or 1000W PSU. I tried running my 400W 3080 Ti on a 650W SFX PSU and it kept crashing to desktop in games, even when I reduced the GPU power limit to 300W. Apparently there are transient power spikes in the GPU that the PSU couldn't handle even though I was under 650W. So I got an EVGA SuperNOVA 1000W G6 for $162 and haven't had any more problems. PSUs are generally most efficient at 50% load, and also for this PSU the fan curve is dependent on the load so at 50-60% load it's whisper quiet.

Also I would just get the Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM 4-pin fan since it's the same price and you get better speed control with PWM:
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-A12x15-PWM-Premium-Quiet/dp/B071W6HJP6/
The 3060 Ti is rated at 170W sustained, 200W peak. Paired with a 5800X, that seems like overkill.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by flyingcows »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:59 pm No. I did a search on that earlier, like last month. :)

My exasperation over the GPU hit a breaking point when I finally got my replacement monitors Re: [Computer monitor for photo editing, some gaming]. Have monitor, might as well put it to good use.

I forgot to mention that the Newegg purchase has a "Return for replacement only" return policy. No refunds.
flyingcows wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 4:22 pm Has anyone with the 3080 ti played Cyberpunk at 4k? If so, please share your experience :), I’m considering buying it just to do another play through, but connected to my LG C9 OLED which supports 4k 120hz
I don't have a 3080 ti and I don't play Cyberpunk. However, I have a 65" LG CX OLED for my home theater - the next version after the C9. I just wanted to ask if you've "calibrated" your C9 for gaming. You can find a lot of suggestions at LG C9 OLED Review - RTINGS.com. AVS forum would be another good place to look. Here's the thread: 2019 C9–E9 Owner's Thread (No Price Talk)
Ah thank you! I actually have not used it for gaming yet, I was waiting until I had a video card that could drive games at 4k 60fps+, for now we have just been using it to watch TV and it’s been fantastic for that. We love this TV :sharebeer

I will definitly plan to read up on gaming calibration and configuration once I start using it for gaming, I’ve also read that there was a firmware update which adds gsync support
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Yes, you'll find a lot of good discussion in the AVS forum thread. I saw gaming discussions in the CX owner's thread (what I own) and assume you'll see similar content. If you're not familiar with calibration, those threads usually have someone saying "here's my calibration settings" which is what you want to use. Those guys are the experts.

If you don't have an internet connection, then upgrade the firmware via USB. You should always have the latest firmware. My CX has a dedicated wired ethernet connection. (The TV has Netflix, Amazon Prime, and YouTube built-in apps. Going "direct" into the TV will give you the highest quality picture.)
Independent George wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:21 pm The 3060 Ti is rated at 170W sustained, 200W peak. Paired with a 5800X, that seems like overkill.
I would agree.
tortoise84 wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:50 pm ...No worries. Actually I didn't realize that the Noctua coolers could be mounted with the airflow going bottom to top on AMD, so I looked into it and found this video where they didn't find any significant difference in temps:
https://youtu.be/O1WGlPrH4IU

...Also I would just get the Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM 4-pin fan since it's the same price and you get better speed control with PWM:
https://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-A12x15-PWM-Premium-Quiet/dp/B071W6HJP6/
I watched the video. The orientation measurements first checked if there was a difference in heat transfer from the CPU dies to the cooler interface (no). Then, they found that the orientation differences are dependent on the case configuration and component location. Makes sense to me.

Thanks for finding the 4-pin PWM version. I only went with the 3-pin fan because I didn't know there was a 4-pin version and very much preferred to use all 4 pins on that connector.

The parts have been ordered:
  • CPU - AMD Ryzen 5800X
  • CPU Cooler - Noctua NH-U12A
  • Motherboard - Asus TUF Gaming X570-Plus (AM4)
  • GPU - MSI Ventus GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB
  • RAM - G.Skill RIpjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) F4-3200C16Q-32GVKB
  • Storage - Samsung 980 Pro M.2 2280 1 TB PCIe Gen 4.0
  • PSU - Seasonic Focus Plus 650 Gold SSR-750FX 750W 80+ ATX12V Fully modular
  • Case - Fractal Design Meshify C Black
  • Case fan - Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM, Premium Quiet Slim Fan, 4-pin
  • UPS - APC BR1350MS 1350 VA Pure SineWave
The ordering process was somewhat intense and needed my full attention. I had my spreadsheet open, Amazon in one browser tab, Newegg in another.

I then walked down the spreadsheet and did a real-time price comparison. I decided Amazon or Newegg, added it to the appropriate cart, and updated the spreadsheet. Somehow Newegg automagically matched Amazon price for several parts. You also have to watch Newegg carefully, as they'll add shipping charges in small print under the price.

When I was done, I proceeded to checkout for both sites simultaneously. To my surprise, a few items on Amazon, like the motherboard and case, were showing shipping delays. Amazon delivery for the case was pushed to November. The motherboard was "we'll send you an email for an updated delivery date" - not good. I removed those items from my cart and added them to Newegg. Everything should arrive before the end of October.

When I was done, I checked out both Amazon and Newegg simultaneously. Fun, as Amazon hit my credit card and Newegg went to Paypal.

My next step is to plan the migration of the Win 10 SSDs (M.2 and SATA) on my current build over to the new build. I'll use the new M.2 drive for this build, which will be relegated to Linux.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by sycamore »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:09 pm The parts have been ordered:
  • ...
  • Storage - Samsung 980 Pro M.2 2280 1 TB PCIe Gen 4.0
...
My next step is to plan the migration of the Win 10 SSDs (M.2 and SATA) on my current build over to the new build. I'll use the new M.2 drive for this build, which will be relegated to Linux.
I see you're upgrading to PCIe 4.0. I've heard good things about it.

I imagine either PCIe 3.0 or 4.0 is a big step over SATA (what I'm still using after many years) but I wonder how much real life improvement you'll see with 4.0 over 3.0. FWIW, there was a previous post (I think in this thread) about how 4.0 systems likely use more power / put out more heat, but that may depend on the particular SSD.

Either way, your new systems looks to be awesome!
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Yes, there was a huge jump in performance, mainly the Win 10 boot time, going from SATA to M.2. My Linux SSDs are SATA, so I'm using the opportunity to move the boot drive to M.2.

I haven't looked at differences between PCIe 3.0 to PCIe 4.0. I just mainly wanted the M.2 form factor for the fast boot time and that it's integrated into the motherboard.

My Linux PC will be the current build (Ryzen 7 3800X / NVidia GeForce RTX 2060 Super). Win 10 will be the new Ryzen 7 5800X / GeForce RTX 3060 Ti. I now have to swap the SSDs around to get everything where I want it.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

As I understand it, there really isn't much of a jump from 3.0 to 4.0, but the price of 4.0 has been gradually coming down to the point where it might be worth it even if you don't notice a significant improvement. I have not experienced 4.0 firsthand, but what I've read is that while PCIe 4.0 can have double the sequential read speeds in benchmarks, random reads (which is what we experience the most often) perform about the same (and not much faster than SATA drives with nand memory controllers). In my personal experience, there is a huge jump from a HDD to SSD even within SATA 2, and then a modest jump from SATA 2 to PCIe 3.0.

I plan on swapping out my 2TB Gen 3 boot/programs drive for Gen 4 once prices come down a bit more, and then move the old Gen 3 drive into my laptop. I would not put Gen 4 on laptop due to the higher power draw & temps.

ETA: I did a quick check on Newegg, and it looks like there's about a $100 price differential from Gen 3 to Gen 4. Looking at three high-quality brands with roughly equivalent SKUs:

Crucial P5 2TB TLC:
P5 Gen 3: $230
P5 Plus Gen 4: $320

Samsung 970/980 EVO 2TB MLC:
970 EVO Plus Gen 3: $330
980 EVO Pro Gen 4: $380

Western Digital SN750/SN850 2TB TLC:
SN 750 Gen 3: $250
SN 850 Gen 4: $340

The Samsung Gen 3 drive seems to be the outlier, but it's also MLC. I bought mine on sale for $250 last year, and usually see them around $300.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

Independent George wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:12 pm Samsung 970/980 EVO 2TB MLC:
970 EVO Plus Gen 3: $330
980 EVO Pro Gen 4: $380
FYI, both of these drives are TLC. Samsung tries to pull a fast one on everybody by calling it "3-bit MLC", but we all know what that means. :annoyed The 970 PRO is "2-bit MLC", or what everyone not named Samsung refers to as simply MLC, but it is not available in a 2TB size.

Another good option is Sabrent. I have had the Rocket 4 ($300) for exactly a year, and it is blisteringly fast (mine is the 1TB, not the 2TB linked here). Windows install using another M.2 SSD (970 EVO) as the installation source took literally 10 seconds. My son's build is likely going to use the newer Rocket 4 Plus ($360), which is even faster. Both of these are TLC. They also make a Rocket Q4, which as the name implies is QLC. But it isn't any cheaper so I wouldn't bother.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

A brief diversion on CPUs - It never fails. As soon as I purchase something, the price drops. :)

Amazon has a quick a sale on the Ryzen 7 5800X: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8-core, 16-Thread Unlocked Desktop Processor

I paid: 419.99
Amazon's price for the next 9 hours: 394.99
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:33 pm A brief diversion on CPUs - It never fails. As soon as I purchase something, the price drops. :)

Amazon has a quick a sale on the Ryzen 7 5800X: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 8-core, 16-Thread Unlocked Desktop Processor

I paid: 419.99
Amazon's price for the next 9 hours: 394.99
Yep, noticed that this morning. Thinking about pulling the trigger for my son's build (he was originally planning on the 5600X), but the i7-10700KF for $247 is really tempting also.

Newegg has matched the price on the 5800X, but not on the 10700KF.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Tyler9000 »

sycamore wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:37 pm I imagine either PCIe 3.0 or 4.0 is a big step over SATA (what I'm still using after many years) but I wonder how much real life improvement you'll see with 4.0 over 3.0.
It depends on what you're doing with it. For huge file transfers you'll see a noticeable difference, but for everyday things like gaming and video editing it's actually really hard to notice the difference even between PCIe 4.0 and a quality SATA SSD.

I found this video that did blind tests with power users to be particularly insightful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKLA7w9eeA
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:44 pm Yep, noticed that this morning. Thinking about pulling the trigger for my son's build (he was originally planning on the 5600X), but the i7-10700KF for $247 is really tempting also.

Newegg has matched the price on the 5800X, but not on the 10700KF.
The AMD vs. Intel debate will go on ad-nauseum. Both designs are fine. In AMD's early years, I went with Intel because they had a robust and reliable design (except for the early Pentium 80386 register multiply bug) compared to AMD. Recently, AMD has jumped in front.

If the build is for your son and he prefers the AMD 5600X, then let him make the decision to go with AMD. You can then give him a quick upgrade to the 5800X while it's still on sale (and in your price range).

Prices will continue to change. If you are ready to buy now, then do so. The holiday season is starting up and who knows how the supply chain will react.

As I noted when I made my purchase yesterday, there were already unexpected shipping delays. Having two suppliers allowed me to move things around to reduce the shipping time.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:25 pm
Independent George wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:12 pm Samsung 970/980 EVO 2TB MLC:
970 EVO Plus Gen 3: $330
980 EVO Pro Gen 4: $380
FYI, both of these drives are TLC. Samsung tries to pull a fast one on everybody by calling it "3-bit MLC", but we all know what that means. :annoyed The 970 PRO is "2-bit MLC", or what everyone not named Samsung refers to as simply MLC, but it is not available in a 2TB size.

Another good option is Sabrent. I have had the Rocket 4 ($300) for exactly a year, and it is blisteringly fast (mine is the 1TB, not the 2TB linked here). Windows install using another M.2 SSD (970 EVO) as the installation source took literally 10 seconds. My son's build is likely going to use the newer Rocket 4 Plus ($360), which is even faster. Both of these are TLC. They also make a Rocket Q4, which as the name implies is QLC. But it isn't any cheaper so I wouldn't bother.
If you can't tell by the read/write speeds, then go by secondary factors. The Samsung SSDs have an MTBF of 1.5 million hours. There are tons of ways to define "MTBF", but the fact that they spec it at all means that they're serious about the design. I don't see any MTBF specs for Rocket, but I may have missed it.

One difference I see between Rocket and Samsung is in the area of thermal management. Samsung appears to have a handle on things, while Rocket recommends a heat sink if it's mounted on the motherboard.
Tyler9000 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:51 pm
sycamore wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:37 pm I imagine either PCIe 3.0 or 4.0 is a big step over SATA (what I'm still using after many years) but I wonder how much real life improvement you'll see with 4.0 over 3.0.
It depends on what you're doing with it. For huge file transfers you'll see a noticeable difference, but for everyday things like gaming and video editing it's actually really hard to notice the difference even between PCIe 4.0 and a quality SATA SSD.

I found this video that did blind tests with power users to be particularly insightful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DKLA7w9eeA
I thought it was interesting to see that the test rigs used an Asus TUF Gaming motherboard - what I'm using.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

lazydavid wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 4:25 pm FYI, both of these drives are TLC. Samsung tries to pull a fast one on everybody by calling it "3-bit MLC", but we all know what that means. :annoyed The 970 PRO is "2-bit MLC", or what everyone not named Samsung refers to as simply MLC, but it is not available in a 2TB size.
Dangit. This terminology is quickly getting as meaningless as TDP, or teraflops.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Tyler9000 »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:32 pm I thought it was interesting to see that the test rigs used an Asus TUF Gaming motherboard - what I'm using.
Clearly you have good taste in components. 8-)

BTW, I also like your case choice. Fractal Design makes really great cases, and I can't recommend them enough. I'm more of a Define kinda guy, but the Meshify series is also excellent. They're all high quality.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:05 pm The AMD vs. Intel debate will go on ad-nauseum. Both designs are fine. In AMD's early years, I went with Intel because they had a robust and reliable design (except for the early Pentium 80386 register multiply bug) compared to AMD. Recently, AMD has jumped in front.

If the build is for your son and he prefers the AMD 5600X, then let him make the decision to go with AMD. You can then give him a quick upgrade to the 5800X while it's still on sale (and in your price range).
Oh don't get me wrong. This is his budget, his decision. We talk about everything (had a 20 minute conversation this afternoon about options, in fact). When I found the Amazon sale this morning, he was initially interested in saving some coin for similar performance, but decided since 10th gen Intel parts don't support PCI 4.0, and 12th gen parts won't work in current mobos (socket is changing from LGA1200 to LGA1700), he's back to AMD, so that's totally fine. Pulling the trigger on a 5800X and MSI X570S Edge Max tonight.

The board is new enough that there is no 3600Mhz RAM on the QVL at the moment, but that should shake out in the next month or so.

And since the discussion has shifted to Fractal Design cases, he has his heart set on the new Torrent, which looks like it might be close to emerging from its recall over the fan controller.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Tyler9000 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:11 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:32 pm I thought it was interesting to see that the test rigs used an Asus TUF Gaming motherboard - what I'm using.
Clearly you have good taste in components. 8-)

BTW, I also like your case choice. Fractal Design makes really great cases, and I can't recommend them enough. I'm more of a Define kinda guy, but the Meshify series is also excellent. They're all high quality.
8-) On the Fractal Design Meshify case - Like last time, I couldn't bring myself to tricking out on RGB. I went with the basic black metal cover.

lazydavid - Give your son the responsibility for ensuring the parts fit in that fancy Torrent case. It's not trivial and will require some thought. Welcome to system engineering. :)

As I've documented throughout the thread, everything I do is tracked in a spreadsheet. Group the areas - mechanical, electrical, thermal, technical notes, website pricing, etc.

Be sure to include links directly to the manufacturer's specifications. AMD Ryzen™ 7 5800X, for example. Don't depend on other websites for that information. Accuracy is not guaranteed.

Layout the case specifications for each component - CPU cooler height (which one?), GPU card length, Power Supply dimensions (which one?), etc. It comes in very handy, as one of my GPU card selections missed fitting by 1 mm. What did I do? Get a 15 mm slim case fan.

For the RAM, don't push things. The maximum memory frequency for the 5800X is 3200 MHz (find it in the spec for yourself), so use the 3200 MHz RAM in the QVL. Every RAM manufacturer has a motherboard compatibility checker. Use that to start, then confirm directly on the AMD Qualified Vendor List - which your son should also download. RAM issues can be insidious and painful to figure out - as we both well know. Keep it simple for him.

Is he interested in showing off the RGB? Cable layout is important.

If he finds something won't fit and he needs to change the case, that's fine. It's a lesson well learned - that's why you do this on paper before you make the purchase. Be sure to include cost as one of the trade-offs.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:52 pm lazydavid - Give your son the responsibility for ensuring the parts fit in that fancy Torrent case. It's not trivial and will require some thought. Welcome to system engineering. :)

As I've documented throughout the thread, everything I do is tracked in a spreadsheet. Group the areas - mechanical, electrical, thermal, technical notes, website pricing, etc.

Be sure to include links directly to the manufacturer's specifications. AMD Ryzen™ 7 5800X, for example. Don't depend on other websites for that information. Accuracy is not guaranteed.

Layout the case specifications for each component - CPU cooler height (which one?), GPU card length, Power Supply dimensions (which one?), etc. It comes in very handy, as one of my GPU card selections missed fitting by 1 mm. What did I do? Get a 15 mm slim case fan.
Yes, the responsibility is his, however I've subtly helped along the way--every case I've pointed out to him to take a look at, which led him to ultimately deciding on the Torrent, has been a large one where fitment will be much less of an issue. The C in Meshify C stands for "Compact", which as you've found means you need to be a touch more careful. :) Not nearly as fiddly as a Micro ITX of course, but definitely requiring more planning than in a full-size case.
LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:52 pmFor the RAM, don't push things. The maximum memory frequency for the 5800X is 3200 MHz (find it in the spec for yourself), so use the 3200 MHz RAM in the QVL. Every RAM manufacturer has a motherboard compatibility checker. Use that to start, then confirm directly on the AMD Qualified Vendor List - which your son should also download. RAM issues can be insidious and painful to figure out - as we both well know. Keep it simple for him.
Pretty much every Ryzen will run reliably at an IFCLK of 1800, and some will run as high as 2000. He doesn't want to push it too far, but does want to push it a bit just like I did with my 3600X, and the performance sweet spot for Ryzen has been with 3600Mhz RAM for several generations now. We've got our eyes on a couple of 2x16GB "Made for Ryzen" PC3600 kits with solid timings that we are expecting to be added to the QVL.
LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:52 pm Is he interested in showing off the RGB? Cable layout is important.
He hasn't decided yet. There are standard and RGB (fans) versions of the case, he's not sure which way he wants to go. I did ask if he decided not to go the RGB route if he'd want to do a white case and PS so it still looks a bit interesting, but he ultimately felt that would limit him in the GPU category to the small handful of custom cards that come in white so that the aesthetic would match. But cable routing will be important regardless. :) The Torrent is pretty good for that overall, with the excepting of not having a lot of room for slack at the bottom of the panel-side. Most excess slack has to go in the PSU compartment, which fortunately is quite roomy. But passthroughs and retention straps abound, making it pretty easy to keep the main compartment tidy.
LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:52 pmIf he finds something won't fit and he needs to change the case, that's fine. It's a lesson well learned - that's why you do this on paper before you make the purchase. Be sure to include cost as one of the trade-offs.
As noted above, I don't expect that to be an issue due to the size of it, but if it is I would probably buy it from him to replace the ancient Antec P180 (which I bought in 2004) that my PC is in if something didn't work out. But to put things in perspective, there's enough length in there for an Alphacool Monsta radiator (85mm thick) and the stock fans (38mm thick) without coming anywhere near the motherboard, and still leaving 338mm for the GPU. "Full length" is 312 mm, and the longest GPU I've ever personally seen was 307mm. And of course he's not water cooling, so the clearance is actually 423mm, or ~150mm more than any card he's likely to choose.

Likewise, the largest CPU cooler he'd possibly choose is the Noctua NH-D15 Chromax (the NH-U12A is more likely now that it also coming in black), which is 160mm tall, and the case has 188mm of clearance. But yes, he'll get to figure all this out for himself. :)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by girvincn »

I realize this thread is titled "PC Build Thread," but by "PC" does that mean we're talking about any personal computer, or specifically Windows machines? I'd love some advice on a storage solution for my current iMac. Figured this may be a good place to start.

My current machine is a 2017 iMac 27". I bought it secondhand; the previous owner had taken the existing 1TB fusion drive (128GB SSD and 1TB HDD) and replaced the HDD with an SSD, so it currently has a 128GB SSD as the boot drive for the operating system and a 1TB SSD for storage. I am an avid digital photographer and in this age of rapid-fire shooting and large raw files, I'm nearing capacity on that storage drive, so I'd like to expand. One thought I had was to purchase something like a Drobo external RAID to use as storage, but that does feel a little excessive to me. Now I'm thinking I may just try to replace the 1TB SSD I use for storage with something like a 4TB SSD and use an 8TB SSD as my backup drive via Time Machine.

So the questions I have are:
1 - Does this seem like a reasonable solution? If not, what else should I be considering?
2 - Never having opened up an iMac before, is this something I can likely do myself (the tech guy at my work says he'll help)? Will I have to format that drive, or is it fairly plug-and-play?
3 - Do you have a specific recommendation on the SSDs I should purchase?

Current Specs:
Computer
MacOS 10.13.6
iMac Retina 5K, 27", 2017
3.8 GHz Intel Core i5
64GB 2400 MHz DDR4
Radeon Pro 580 8192MB

128GB Boot Drive
AppleAPFSMedia
PCI-Express
Partition Map Type: Unknown

1TB Storage Drive
Mercury Electra 6G SSD Media
SATA
Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

Is there any reason you jump directly from replacing the internal drive to a NAS? There are plenty of external drives to choose from that would be a way simpler solution.

Also it's insane overkill from a cost perspective to use an SSD for time machine backups. Yes the very first backup will take an hour or two to seed with an HDD, but subsequent ones will be very fast. Remember that the one thing traditional hard drives are still quite good at is long sequential writes--which is exactly what backups are.

Sounds like you could swap your content drive for the 4TB SSD per your plan, then add an 8-18TB external HDD for backups. Possibly something like this 14TB unit from OWC. You could even get a portable enclosure for your existing 1TB drive to essentially make a giant thumbdrive for almost nothing, which would also make it easier to transfer content back to your new drive.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

It looks like a seriously involving process to replace the HDD in an iMac: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iMac+27-In ... ent/136942

I would just get an external Thunderbolt 3 (up to 40Gbps or 4000MB/s) or USB 3.0 (up to 500MB/s) SSD. When writing large files like photos and videos in chunks >~50 GB, the thing to watch out for with SSDs is that some of them have an SLC cache portion where they can write at full speed of 500MB/s SATA or 3000MB/s NVMe, but when that cache runs out, the drive has to write to the TLC or QLC memory which can be much slower down to 50MB/s.

You can find out the sustained write performance from review sites like Tomshardware.com. I haven't researched any external SSDs but I know for internal 2.5" SATA SSDs, the Crucial MX500 and WD Blue 3D NAND can sustain write speeds of 500MB/s.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

One more thing to note: once you replace the drive, you'll also have to reinstall the operating system from a bootable USB drive... which requires a working computer to create. If you don't have an extra computer to start from, you will need to do it from the iMac before you disassemble. Instructions can be found here.

As to replacing the drive - I almost always encourage people to work with their own machines to keep them running, but the iMac is a bit of a pain. Macs from the early 2000s had hinged panels that slid open to make it easy to work on; these days everything is glued together so that a simple drive change requires sliding a spudger around a glass screen, while you pray you don't push too hard and accidentally take out a cable. It's a worthwhile experience if you're careful - I think everyone should try something like this at least once - but there's some risk involved. Make sure you have plenty of space to work, and I'd also recommend laying a towel on the work surface just in case the worst happens and you drop the screen after pulling it off the panel.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 6:32 pm If you can't tell by the read/write speeds, then go by secondary factors. The Samsung SSDs have an MTBF of 1.5 million hours. There are tons of ways to define "MTBF", but the fact that they spec it at all means that they're serious about the design. I don't see any MTBF specs for Rocket, but I may have missed it.

One difference I see between Rocket and Samsung is in the area of thermal management. Samsung appears to have a handle on things, while Rocket recommends a heat sink if it's mounted on the motherboard.
Advertised MTBF of the Rocket 4.0 is 1.7 million hours, and 3600TBW for the 2TB model. The 2TB 980 PRO is 1.5 million hours or 1200TBW, so I certainly wouldn't worry from that account.

From a heat perspective, yes a heatsink is recommended, but what motherboards that someone looking for a NVMe Gen4 drive would be using, don't have them? My personal 1TB Rocket 4.0 in slot M.2_1 on my (your :) ) board with the stock Asus heatsink runs around 45-46C during normal operation, rises as high as 52C during extended reads, and as high as 54C during extended writes. The drive will thermal throttle at 83C, so I have LOADS of headroom there. Several tests show it having slightly better thermal performance than the 970 Evo when neither is equipped with a heatsink:

https://www.legitreviews.com/sabrent-ro ... _217576/11
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/s ... ew,17.html
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

Independent George wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:36 am One more thing to note: once you replace the drive, you'll also have to reinstall the operating system from a bootable USB drive... which requires a working computer to create. If you don't have an extra computer to start from, you will need to do it from the iMac before you disassemble. Instructions can be found here.
It looks like the previous owner reconfigured it so the 128GB drive is the boot drive, and that won't be touched. So no OS restore necessary.
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