PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

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LadyGeek
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:55 pm Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water... my dual-boot Linux / Windows PC graphics failed. By failure, the video was corrupted inside open windows and in the task bar.

(A few weeks ago, I switched my Linux from Fedora / Xfce desktop to Ubuntu / Cinnamon desktop.) The failure was seen in the Linux "Windows".

I have two identical hardware Lenovo desktop PCs. One is my everyday Linux / Windows PC, the other was relegated as a backup PC and put in storage (was used by my late husband). I easily installed the SSDs into the second PC.

It booted into MS Windows out of the box. Microsoft even recognized the license as activated. However, it wasn't supposed to boot into MS Windows.

For some reason, the GRUB2 bootloader was hosed. I booted from my Ubuntu live USB stick and followed How to Repair GRUB2 When Ubuntu Won’t Boot. It worked. After fixing a few more software OS things, I was back in business.

The bottom line is that both PCs were purchased at the same time - about 3 years ago and put under heavy use. If one fails, the other is not far behind.* I'm thinking to replace this PC when the supply chain gets going and parts become available at decent prices.

As a backup, I can put the SSDs into my Ryzen 7 build - there's plenty of room.

* This PC already has one failed DP (display port) connector and the audio left channel line output is dead. I'm using the front-panel headphone connector.
Five months and 2 days later, my dual-boot Linux / Windows PC has officially kicked the bit bucket. I booted into Linux this morning and was greeted with corrupted video inside the open windows. I let it sit for a while, but it didn't go away and seemed to be getting worse. During the Linux power-down sequence, I saw several timeout and other hardware error messages. Execution of backup plan in progress.

My Lenovo T470 laptop (Intel I5) is sitting in its place and will now be my backup / Win 10 PC. I have a USB keyboard and mouse plugged in, along with my 30" monitor. It's like a slow desktop, but works fine.

I'm using the built-in Intel graphics chip set and was pleasantly surprised to see 2560x1440p x 59 Hz resolution supported over the HDMI port. It's up to the manufacturer to support those higher resolutions. I can also support a 60 Hz refresh rate, I'll see if it makes any difference.
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Colorado Guy
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Colorado Guy »

Ouch.
Colorado Guy
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Colorado Guy »

I'm curious. Is anyone using a small-ish or medium-ish new 4k TV as a monitor?

I did purchase 2 monitors with my new computer, one is an Acer Predator 32" wide monitor, which is great for both spreadsheets and gaming (if you are into that). The other one I returned after a week as it was actually not as good as my 6 year old 1080 monitor, so I am still looking for a 2nd monitor. Would prefer not a wide monitor, but more of a traditional shape (taller, not wider). I was looking at TVs this week and realized that one of them may be something to replace my existing 1080 32" monitor, assuming it would be good for text reading and such. My primary concern is desk size and how close I will be to the monitor, so would be looking at about 32-42" in size.
rockstar
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by rockstar »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:36 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:55 pm Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water... my dual-boot Linux / Windows PC graphics failed. By failure, the video was corrupted inside open windows and in the task bar.

(A few weeks ago, I switched my Linux from Fedora / Xfce desktop to Ubuntu / Cinnamon desktop.) The failure was seen in the Linux "Windows".

I have two identical hardware Lenovo desktop PCs. One is my everyday Linux / Windows PC, the other was relegated as a backup PC and put in storage (was used by my late husband). I easily installed the SSDs into the second PC.

It booted into MS Windows out of the box. Microsoft even recognized the license as activated. However, it wasn't supposed to boot into MS Windows.

For some reason, the GRUB2 bootloader was hosed. I booted from my Ubuntu live USB stick and followed How to Repair GRUB2 When Ubuntu Won’t Boot. It worked. After fixing a few more software OS things, I was back in business.

The bottom line is that both PCs were purchased at the same time - about 3 years ago and put under heavy use. If one fails, the other is not far behind.* I'm thinking to replace this PC when the supply chain gets going and parts become available at decent prices.

As a backup, I can put the SSDs into my Ryzen 7 build - there's plenty of room.

* This PC already has one failed DP (display port) connector and the audio left channel line output is dead. I'm using the front-panel headphone connector.
Five months and 2 days later, my dual-boot Linux / Windows PC has officially kicked the bit bucket. I booted into Linux this morning and was greeted with corrupted video inside the open windows. I let it sit for a while, but it didn't go away and seemed to be getting worse. During the Linux power-down sequence, I saw several timeout and other hardware error messages. Execution of backup plan in progress.

My Lenovo T470 laptop (Intel I5) is sitting in its place and will now be my backup / Win 10 PC. I have a USB keyboard and mouse plugged in, along with my 30" monitor. It's like a slow desktop, but works fine.

I'm using the built-in Intel graphics chip set and was pleasantly surprised to see 2560x1440p x 59 Hz resolution supported over the HDMI port. It's up to the manufacturer to support those higher resolutions. I can also support a 60 Hz refresh rate, I'll see if it makes any difference.
I use a Thinkpad with a docking station. Works great. But I'd prefer a better GPU for data science stuff.

Now, I haven't done a dual boot system in years. Instead, I use VM Player and have VMs for obsd and ubuntu linux that I spin up as I need them. VMs have come a long way, and the free player works great.
Marseille07
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Marseille07 »

Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Mudpuppy »

Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:04 am I'm curious. Is anyone using a small-ish or medium-ish new 4k TV as a monitor?
I used to have a computer hooked up to my TV as my own DIY Steam console, but I was still using the TV as a TV, which means I was magnifying the desktop to be able to read it from the couch and didn't care about how it looked up close. I also wasn't playing any games where frame rate or response time to redraw the screen for the new frame mattered.

Theoretically, a smaller (32" or less) 4k TV should have decent resolution, PPI, and contrast for up-close viewing, but you still want to pay close attention to the specs. The larger 4K TVs are going to have a lower PPI, which could make it appear grainy or fuzzy when viewed up close. Also, if you're playing a game where response time does matter, the TV might be "laggy" compared to a similar monitor with faster redraw times.

Here's PC Gamer's older article on things to look out for in 4k TV specs when using it for gaming: https://www.pcgamer.com/can-i-use-a-4k- ... r-monitor/

So that's all a long-winded way of saying it could work, but you need to pay close attention to the specs and should either "try before you buy" or buy somewhere with a good return policy (although I'm not sure you can even find a place without restocking fees these days).
d18lover
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by d18lover »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:11 pm Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
Everything is out of wack with supply lines, it's so hard to figure out good/fair pricing in things.

That is an awful lot of HDD space, what are you storing? We take scores of 4k video and pics of our family and haven't even maxed out 2tb.
Marseille07
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Marseille07 »

d18lover wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:25 pm Everything is out of wack with supply lines, it's so hard to figure out good/fair pricing in things.

That is an awful lot of HDD space, what are you storing? We take scores of 4k video and pics of our family and haven't even maxed out 2tb.
I see, so the pricing is out of whack currently.

I store pretty much everything I can. Photos, videos and books - I scanned 700+ books in HQ and then some. Also, I'm buying a big disk for future-proofing. I tech refresh my PC every 6 years but keep the same disks.
rockstar
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by rockstar »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:11 pm Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
First, that's a SMR drive. I can tell by the AX. Second, WD put out new CMR red plus drives. And this one below replaces the RX with ZX. I just added it to my NAS to replace a 7 year old drive:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08VH ... UTF8&psc=1

The Red drives aren't CMR by default any more. You want the plus ones or better.

And some more info:

https://nascompares.com/2020/04/16/your ... d-to-know/

and this one is even more clear:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... rd-drives/

and about the RX to ZX change:

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/commen ... odel_efzx/
Marseille07
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Marseille07 »

rockstar wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:58 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:11 pm Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
First, that's a SMR drive. I can tell by the AX. Second, WD put out new CMR red plus drives. And this one below replaces the RX with ZX. I just added it to my NAS to replace a 7 year old drive:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08VH ... UTF8&psc=1

The Red drives aren't CMR by default any more. You want the plus ones or better.

And some more info:

https://nascompares.com/2020/04/16/your ... d-to-know/

and this one is even more clear:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... rd-drives/

and about the RX to ZX change:

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/commen ... odel_efzx/
It's CMR. The product title is WD Red Plus 12TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6Gb/s, CMR, 256MB Cache, 3.5 Inch - WD120EFAX.

What you're describing is correct for WD Reds; they created a different product line called Red Plus. My examples above are both Red Pluses, with the only difference being the spinrates being 5400 vs 7200.

In theory, 7200 is faster thus more expensive...and used to be the case. But now we're observing the opposite, hence the conundrum.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by othermike27 »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:11 pm Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
Following your link, those drives are sold and shipped by "VNBHUB" and "Deal Targets" - two third-party suppliers. So that could explain any price differences right there. If you specify Sold by Newegg as one of your search criteria, you'll still get a lower price on the 7200 rpm, but it's closer. And the 7200 rpm unit shows as out of stock from Newegg.

As for Amazon prices, I noticed something interesting while tracking the price of a Synology DS 1520+ over several months. Every time the Newegg price changed up or down, the Amazon price did exactly the same so the two always remained the same until Newegg offered one of their "use this code at checkout and get $xx off the price" deals. Could it be that somebody had a bot tracking the competition...? :shock:

Also, the listings I pulled up when following OP's link were for both 5400 (WD120EFAX) and 7200 (WD120EFBX) rpm units as Red Plus CMR drives, contrary to the comment upthread.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Marseille07 »

othermike27 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:35 pm Following your link, those drives are sold and shipped by "VNBHUB" and "Deal Targets" - two third-party suppliers. So that could explain any price differences right there. If you specify Sold by Newegg as one of your search criteria, you'll still get a lower price on the 7200 rpm, but it's closer. And the 7200 rpm unit shows as out of stock from Newegg.

As for Amazon prices, I noticed something interesting while tracking the price of a Synology DS 1520+ over several months. Every time the Newegg price changed up or down, the Amazon price did exactly the same so the two always remained the same until Newegg offered one of their "use this code at checkout and get $xx off the price" deals. Could it be that somebody had a bot tracking the competition...? :shock:

Also, the listings I pulled up when following OP's link were for both 5400 (WD120EFAX) and 7200 (WD120EFBX) rpm units as Red Plus CMR drives, contrary to the comment upthread.
Yeah, I think the supply chain is messed up & we're probably not seeing fair pricing at the moment. I'm no expert in deciphering WD's code, but it seemed to me like AX means 5400 and BX is 7200. That's just my wild guess though.
othermike27
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by othermike27 »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:38 pm
othermike27 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:35 pm Following your link, those drives are sold and shipped by "VNBHUB" and "Deal Targets" - two third-party suppliers. So that could explain any price differences right there. If you specify Sold by Newegg as one of your search criteria, you'll still get a lower price on the 7200 rpm, but it's closer. And the 7200 rpm unit shows as out of stock from Newegg.

As for Amazon prices, I noticed something interesting while tracking the price of a Synology DS 1520+ over several months. Every time the Newegg price changed up or down, the Amazon price did exactly the same so the two always remained the same until Newegg offered one of their "use this code at checkout and get $xx off the price" deals. Could it be that somebody had a bot tracking the competition...? :shock:

Also, the listings I pulled up when following OP's link were for both 5400 (WD120EFAX) and 7200 (WD120EFBX) rpm units as Red Plus CMR drives, contrary to the comment upthread.
Yeah, I think the supply chain is messed up & we're probably not seeing fair pricing at the moment. I'm no expert in deciphering WD's code, but it seemed to me like AX means 5400 and BX is 7200. That's just my wild guess though.
I think you're right, for now at least. WD's naming/numbering solution to the whole CMR/SMR flap left confusion. If you pull up WD20EFRX now, you get WD Red Plus 2TB - CMR. But I have 4 WD20EFRX units that are correctly labeled WD Red drives, also CMR since they were purchased well before the SMR controversy and the introduction of the Red Plus designation.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by harrychan »

Any advice on getting a GPU? I want to build my own PC and want something better than onboard. I don't game but my kids want to play minecraft, roblox and recently got into flight simulator. I do some very light video editing. I do see some Dell deals with dedicated GPUs but feel DIY gets more bang for the buck.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by queso »

harrychan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:06 pm Any advice on getting a GPU? I want to build my own PC and want something better than onboard. I don't game but my kids want to play minecraft, roblox and recently got into flight simulator. I do some very light video editing. I do see some Dell deals with dedicated GPUs but feel DIY gets more bang for the buck.
I have been running an RTX 3080 for about 4 months and it has been fantastic. Real pain to put your hands on one though...
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Colorado Guy »

You may want to check out MicroCenter. For GPUs, I know that earlier this summer there was a line outside the store, starting in the wee hours of the morning, waiting for GPUs. Crypto miners may have slacked off recently, but I am unaware.

FYI, EVGA is building new versions of GPUs that are supposed to not be usable for mining. You may want to check them out.

If you are looking at prebuilts other than Dell, take a hard look at MicroCenter. I got tired of waiting for a GPU, ended up buying one of their prebuilts with a 3070. There was a slight price premium of course, but I got Windows Pro and a 5900 processor, 2 TB of storage (not memory), etc. Very satisfied with the PC.
Last edited by Colorado Guy on Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by 02nz »

harrychan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:06 pm Any advice on getting a GPU? I want to build my own PC and want something better than onboard. I don't game but my kids want to play minecraft, roblox and recently got into flight simulator. I do some very light video editing. I do see some Dell deals with dedicated GPUs but feel DIY gets more bang for the buck.
GPU pricing and availability are insane. People camped out at Best Buy a day in advance to get their hands on a limit supply of RTX 3000 graphics cards. If you're running at no higher than FHD, I believe the onboard graphics of the newer Ryzen APUs will comfortably handle the tasks you describe (unless it's Flight Simulator 2020), and may be a good interim solution until GPU pricing/availability normalize. AMD Ryzen 5000 series desktop APUs (distinguished by the -G suffix) are already starting to show up: https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7-5700g- ... um-prices/.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

harrychan wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:06 pm Any advice on getting a GPU? I want to build my own PC and want something better than onboard. I don't game but my kids want to play minecraft, roblox and recently got into flight simulator. I do some very light video editing. I do see some Dell deals with dedicated GPUs but feel DIY gets more bang for the buck.
Unfortunately, you're really left with two options in this market: overpay, or wait. The problem with prebuilts goes beyond just worse value than DIY - there are serious quality & design issues, particularly from the large manufacturers like Dell. They also tend to use a lot of proprietary parts which dramatically reduces repairability and resale. In years past, I'd have recommended a boutique builder, but they tend to be small operators that are having just as much problems sourcing parts as DIY builders.

Alternately, you may consider a gaming laptop; at the moment, they're priced a little above a comparatively-spec'd desktop, but will generally be higher quality and provide the benefits of a laptop.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by vgc303 »

Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:00 pm You may want to check out MicroCenter. For GPUs, I know that earlier this summer there was a line outside the store, starting in the wee hours of the morning, waiting for GPUs. Crypto miners may have slacked off recently, but I am unaware.

FYI, EVGA is building new versions of GPUs that are supposed to not be usable for mining. You may want to check them out.

If you are looking at prebuilts other than Dell, take a hard look at MicroCenter. I got tired of waiting for a GPU, ended up buying one of their prebuilts with a 3070. There was a slight price premium of course, but I got Windows Pro and a 5900 processor, 2 TB of storage (not memory), etc. Very satisfied with the PC.
+1 for Microcenter. They have a QR code lottery system so you don't have to camp out. Read the FAQ about it here:
https://community.microcenter.com/discu ... ss-and-faq

I entered it and on my first try I was selected to purchase a 3080 at MSRP :D. For Roblox and Minecraft, I wouldn't even consider anything higher than a 3060 (even that is overkill). There's much more 3060 inventory available than any other card, shouldn't be too terrible to get your hands on one.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

In other news, my first custom loop water cooling components arrived this afternoon. It turns out, my original configuration won't work - I expected to fit a 120mm pump/res beneath a 240mm radiator at the front of my case, but the bottom of the radiator extends too far down. Instead, I'm hanging the res off of the radiator - which is fine, but leaves the bottom fan bracket empty; I should really use a 360mm instead of the 240. And if I'm going to do that, I may as well add a CPU block to use up some of that capacity. I can then top-mount the 240 so it doesn't get wasted, giving me a total of 600mm of radiator space for an 5900X and RX-580. Which is honestly overkill, but in terms of experience, I'm actually enjoying the build more than most of the games I play. It'll also be good practice for whenever I decide to upgrade - if the next gen of GPUs is out in Q4 2022, that's right around when I need to replace the coolant in my rig.

One might expect me to fret about having spent $90 on the Noctua U-12A, except (1) that cooler is a beast and absolutely 100% worth it even if it gets replaced, and (2) I can repurpose the two NF-A12 fans, which retail for $30 each, and (3) the cooler actually retains its value far better than the CPU. What I am regretting is only getting a 650W PSU last year; that may not be sufficient for the next gen.

Also: holy cow, even with soft tubing, the cost of fittings really adds up quickly. It's a minimum of two fittings per component, plus the occasional 90 degree adapters to make it all look good. At the moment, I'm estimating a total cost of $650 for my $125 GPU (though the market price for an RX-580 was above $500 at one point). I should be able to recycle all of the components except the water block for my next gpu, though.
rockstar
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by rockstar »

So I have been hearing a lot about RISC-V. Anyone looking at building a system with one to experiment on?

Also, it looks like Windows 11 is coming out this fall. Are you going to upgrade or wait? It looks like Windows 10 will be supported until 2025.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by rockstar »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:18 pm
rockstar wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:58 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:11 pm Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
First, that's a SMR drive. I can tell by the AX. Second, WD put out new CMR red plus drives. And this one below replaces the RX with ZX. I just added it to my NAS to replace a 7 year old drive:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08VH ... UTF8&psc=1

The Red drives aren't CMR by default any more. You want the plus ones or better.

And some more info:

https://nascompares.com/2020/04/16/your ... d-to-know/

and this one is even more clear:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... rd-drives/

and about the RX to ZX change:

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/commen ... odel_efzx/
It's CMR. The product title is WD Red Plus 12TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6Gb/s, CMR, 256MB Cache, 3.5 Inch - WD120EFAX.

What you're describing is correct for WD Reds; they created a different product line called Red Plus. My examples above are both Red Pluses, with the only difference being the spinrates being 5400 vs 7200.

In theory, 7200 is faster thus more expensive...and used to be the case. But now we're observing the opposite, hence the conundrum.
That's nuts. Are the caches the same?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Marseille07 »

rockstar wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:55 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:18 pm
rockstar wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:58 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:11 pm Does anyone know why 5400 RPM is more expensive than 7200 RPM? This is a newegg example but same thing on Amazon: https://www.newegg.com/red-wd120efax-12 ... 6822234374

I prefer 5400 RPM because the spinrate doesn't matter for my use case & I heard it is more quiet. 5400 RPM used to be cheaper, I don't understand why it is more expensive now.
First, that's a SMR drive. I can tell by the AX. Second, WD put out new CMR red plus drives. And this one below replaces the RX with ZX. I just added it to my NAS to replace a 7 year old drive:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08VH ... UTF8&psc=1

The Red drives aren't CMR by default any more. You want the plus ones or better.

And some more info:

https://nascompares.com/2020/04/16/your ... d-to-know/

and this one is even more clear:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06 ... rd-drives/

and about the RX to ZX change:

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/commen ... odel_efzx/
It's CMR. The product title is WD Red Plus 12TB NAS Hard Disk Drive - 5400 RPM Class SATA 6Gb/s, CMR, 256MB Cache, 3.5 Inch - WD120EFAX.

What you're describing is correct for WD Reds; they created a different product line called Red Plus. My examples above are both Red Pluses, with the only difference being the spinrates being 5400 vs 7200.

In theory, 7200 is faster thus more expensive...and used to be the case. But now we're observing the opposite, hence the conundrum.
That's nuts. Are the caches the same?
Yes, the only difference is the spinrate as far as I can see on Newegg. The pricing doesn't make sense, as other posters said this is probably some supply-chain issues and out of whack.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:36 pm ... Five months and 2 days later, my dual-boot Linux / Windows PC has officially kicked the bit bucket. I booted into Linux this morning and was greeted with corrupted video inside the open windows. I let it sit for a while, but it didn't go away and seemed to be getting worse. During the Linux power-down sequence, I saw several timeout and other hardware error messages. Execution of backup plan in progress.

My Lenovo T470 laptop (Intel I5) is sitting in its place and will now be my backup / Win 10 PC. I have a USB keyboard and mouse plugged in, along with my 30" monitor. It's like a slow desktop, but works fine.

I'm using the built-in Intel graphics chip set and was pleasantly surprised to see 2560x1440p x 59 Hz resolution supported over the HDMI port. It's up to the manufacturer to support those higher resolutions. I can also support a 60 Hz refresh rate, I'll see if it makes any difference.
Backup plan successfully executed. I'm up and running in Linux with my Ryzen 7 CPU and GeForce RTX 2060 Super GPU.

My drive configuration is now:
  • M.2 NVMe - Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 500GB
  • SATA - Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB
  • SATA - Samsung SSD 850 EVO 1TB
  • SATA - Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB
  • USB (external) - Western Digital Elements 2 TB
  • USB (external) - Samsung SSD 850 EVO 500GB
  • USB (external) - 64 GB thumb drive
I did a power-up test after I finished the drive installations. No problems, easy. Everything showed up in BIOS and I booted into Windows.

For Linux, all I need to do is boot my Linux drive (1 TB with multiple partitions) and I'm good to go. In practice, I hit multiple hardware errors and Linux crashed hard. OK, which drive is the one to boot? After a quick diversion to create an Ubuntu bootable USB stick (my last install used a CD-ROM, which I don't have on this build), I quickly determined the right drive.

It turns out that changing to the NVidia card hosed Linux. I then booted GRUB using the recovery mode which uses generic video drivers. I installed the proprietary NVIDIA Linux drivers and everything worked exactly as it was before my old desktop failed. Except faster. Nice.

I then updated the grub bootloader. It now sees (Win 10 x 3) and (Linux x 2) bootable partitions. :)

To those looking to build a system for the first time, be prepared for stuff like this to happen. Don't panic, and be sure you have backups for everything.

On the plus side, my laptop is very close to my stereo receiver. Both have Bluetooth, so I'm using my laptop to stream audio while I work on my Linux PC.

It will take me a while to configure everything the way I want. Also, I'll install my folding@home app to run in Linux. I was using it in Win 10. Now that Linux is my primary OS on this build, I'll run folding@home in Linux instead.

I'm thinking about building another PC... I now have a spare Win 10 and MS Office license.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by harrychan »

vgc303 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:56 pm
Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:00 pm You may want to check out MicroCenter. For GPUs, I know that earlier this summer there was a line outside the store, starting in the wee hours of the morning, waiting for GPUs. Crypto miners may have slacked off recently, but I am unaware.

FYI, EVGA is building new versions of GPUs that are supposed to not be usable for mining. You may want to check them out.

If you are looking at prebuilts other than Dell, take a hard look at MicroCenter. I got tired of waiting for a GPU, ended up buying one of their prebuilts with a 3070. There was a slight price premium of course, but I got Windows Pro and a 5900 processor, 2 TB of storage (not memory), etc. Very satisfied with the PC.
+1 for Microcenter. They have a QR code lottery system so you don't have to camp out. Read the FAQ about it here:
https://community.microcenter.com/discu ... ss-and-faq

I entered it and on my first try I was selected to purchase a 3080 at MSRP :D. For Roblox and Minecraft, I wouldn't even consider anything higher than a 3060 (even that is overkill). There's much more 3060 inventory available than any other card, shouldn't be too terrible to get your hands on one.
Thanks all! I definitely do not need a 3080. I should visit the microcenter nearby in Tustin. Thanks.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

Colorado Guy wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:04 am I'm curious. Is anyone using a small-ish or medium-ish new 4k TV as a monitor?
Not as small as you're looking for, but I've been using a 49" Sony 4k TV as a monitor for just over three years. Now that I'm permanently WFH, I kind of wish I had gotten a 43", so I had enough space to put a second identical one right next to it on my desk. I think instead I'm going to put a 27" 1080p monitor in portrait mode next to it, which will match up fairly well but not perfectly.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by meebers »

About 6 months ago I purchased an inexpensive TCL 43" Class 4-Series 4K UHD HDR LED Smart Android TV. Running W11 on a itx bare bones motherboard at the moment with a cheap MSI GEFORCE 710 Graphics card @ 3840 x 2160 pixel. The picture is crystal clear. Images on my 27" are great, but this TV blows them away. On the other HDMI is my Roku :)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

My folding@home app is running in Linux on both the CPU and GPU. It took a bit of debugging to find that the default install disables the GPU. Once I found and fixed the Expert configuration setting (gpu = false) to (gpu = true) in FAHControl, it started folding after I restarted the FAHClient process.

In Linux, use systemctl to start / stop / status the FAHClient service. There's no need to reboot when you change a setting. For example:

Code: Select all

sudo systemctl restart FAHClient.service
Once everything is setup, it's simply a matter of bookmarking https: / /client.foldingathome.org/ (link broken for this post) in your browser to control your client. This is the same way MS Windows works.

A few years ago, it was difficult to find GUI apps to monitor temperatures and fan speeds. Not any more. psensor is a compact GUI that tells me exactly what I want to know - all of the temperatures including my SDDs, as well as the GPU fan speeds. I'm running at 88 deg C on the Ryzen 7 CPU, 81 deg C on the NVidia GPU. A bit on the high side but within spec.

The NVidia proprietary X server settings tool also monitors temperature and fan speeds. You can also adjust the fan speeds, but I'm not going to touch it.

The only thing left to do is figure out why MS Windows doesn't like the GRUB boot loader. Each of my MS Windows partitions boots into a "PC Repair" mode with the only choice to crash or shut down. I can boot each MS Windows partition just fine using the BIOS manual boot loader, so I'm not too concerned.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Marseille07 »

Marseille07 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:57 pm Yes, the only difference is the spinrate as far as I can see on Newegg. The pricing doesn't make sense, as other posters said this is probably some supply-chain issues and out of whack.
Not sure why the pricing of WD120EFAX is so high ($450~$570) at Amazon / Newegg, but I was able to find one for $350 at Central Computers and placed an order :beer
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

The last of my loop components arrived yesterday; rather than post, I immediately dove into playing with my new toy. I finished the build last night, then woke up early today to fill and leak test. After some early panic, everything seems to be going smooth. I'm still running only the pump, and the motherboard & gpu remain unplugged, but it's been 2 hours without any further leaks or problems.

Total Cost: $670
Build Time: 4 hours
Filling/leak testing/panic/leak fixing: 1 hour
Biggest Error: I accidentally loosened one fitting in the process of tightening another. Of course it was in the hardest-to-reach spot in the build, too.
Best Specialized Tool: 24-pin psu jumper with on/off switch. For a measly $3, it saved me the hassle of reaching back to turn the pump on & off during the fill process.
Biggest Regret: Not buying a fill bottle. I thought it was stupid expense until it came time to actually fill the loop, and my jury-rigged solutions all had issues.
Toughest task: Waiting patiently while letting the pumps run for six hours before powering up all the components.
Biggest Uncertainty: I really, really, really hope I assembled the GPU water block correctly. There is no diagnostic for it - I won't know until power up and discover whether I shorted out my entire system.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Hope that works out for you.
LadyGeek wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:16 am I'm thinking about building another PC... I now have a spare Win 10 and MS Office license.
Thinking complete. I've been waiting long enough and am now proceeding to build #2.

My first decision is the CPU, and the Ryzen 7 5800X is looking like a good first choice. It's an upgrade from my Ryzen 7 3800X.

- I learned my lesson from last time and will stick to the "stock" memory speed.
- I'll also avoid getting another Asus motherboard.
- I'll probably stay with the Fractal Design Meshify C case.

The latest builds in Logical Increments show the 5800X at the high end of the price chart. Times have changed.

Looking at cooling, it seems that liquid coolers have made enough progress (and price drops) where I would consider an "all in one" vs. fan cooling. There are a lot of decisions, especially since I want to keep fan noise as low as possible. I'm not about to attempt anything like Independent George, but if the choice comes close, I'll think about a liquid cooler.

The AMD 5000 series CPUs don't supply stock coolers. Here's the recommendations: Liquid or Air CPU Coolers | Ryzen™ Desktop Processors

I'm also happy to see cooler compatibility guides, such as: Noctua Compatibility Centre
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:19 pm Looking at cooling, it seems that liquid coolers have made enough progress (and price drops) where I would consider an "all in one" vs. fan cooling. There are a lot of decisions, especially since I want to keep fan noise as low as possible. I'm not about to attempt anything like Independent George, but if the choice comes close, I'll think about a liquid cooler.
The 5600X and 5800X are by a huge margin the most efficient x86 processors most of the major publications have ever tested, so water cooling may not be necessary.
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:19 pmThe AMD 5000 series CPUs don't supply stock coolers. Here's the recommendations: Liquid or Air CPU Coolers | Ryzen™ Desktop Processors
5600X comes with a Wraith Spire, 5800X and up comes with no cooler. So in effect--at least the last time I looked--the 5800X is $130+cooler more expensive than the 5600X.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by queso »

I am running a two fan AIO on a Ryzen 5950X and my temps are fine. Case is a Corsair 570X with 6 Corsair LL fans (2 on the AIO so 4 additional- 3 intake on front and one exhaust in the rear - AIO exhausts out the top).
Last edited by queso on Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by hudson »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:19 pm
The latest builds in Logical Increments show the 5800X at the high end of the price chart. Times have changed.
Wow what a resource! Bookmarked...
I guess that they've test driven all of those?
What hard drive will you get?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

I don't know if they test all those configurations, but it's a good place to start.

Right now, I'm on my dual/boot Win 10 / Linux drive, which is a 1 TB SSD hanging on the SATA port of my build #1. I'll be upgrading to an M.2 NVMe SSD and clone the drive. I'm partial to Samsung.
lazydavid wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:28 pm The 5600X and 5800X are by a huge margin the most efficient x86 processors most of the major publications have ever tested, so water cooling may not be necessary....
Thanks, noted. I'm tracking everything in a spreadsheet.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

I powered on my PC, and nothing has shorted out & caught on fire! Woohoo! My Ali Express GPU waterblock didn't kill my system!

More seriously, my PC is dead silent, and I love it. I spent some time mucking about the pump/fan curves in BIOS, and the D5 pump is just barely audible when running at 100%, and effectively silent below 80%. I'm using Folding @ Home to test the cooling, and got some weird results:

1. My GPU, which had previously gone up to 75C and made the most noise, now levels out at 37 C.
2. Weirdly, though, my CPU went from capping out at 55 C, up to 68 C even with the pump running at max. Either the Noctua U-12A is even more awesome than I thought it was, or there is something screwy going on with the temperature sensor. Or both.
3. I set up a secondary temperature sensor in the fitting headed into the CPU; I realize too late that it should have been on the fitting headed out of the CPU. It's too much work to drain and re-fit, so I'm just going to leave it until it's time for the annual maintenance.
4. I have no idea how to change the RGB on my pump/res. I might just unplug the dang thing.
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:19 pm Thinking complete. I've been waiting long enough and am now proceeding to build #2.

My first decision is the CPU, and the Ryzen 7 5800X is looking like a good first choice. It's an upgrade from my Ryzen 7 3800X.

- I learned my lesson from last time and will stick to the "stock" memory speed.
- I'll also avoid getting another Asus motherboard.
- I'll probably stay with the Fractal Design Meshify C case.

The latest builds in Logical Increments show the 5800X at the high end of the price chart. Times have changed.

Looking at cooling, it seems that liquid coolers have made enough progress (and price drops) where I would consider an "all in one" vs. fan cooling. There are a lot of decisions, especially since I want to keep fan noise as low as possible. I'm not about to attempt anything like Independent George, but if the choice comes close, I'll think about a liquid cooler.
Most of the AIO coolers are actually made under license by the same manufacturer, Asetek, which holds a patent on all coolers with a combination pump/CPU block. There's some debate as to whether this is actually a legit patent, but by and large most companies don't think it's worth fighting it out in court. Many of the attempts to bypass the patents have resulted in lousy coolers, but the Be Quiet Pure Loop looks pretty good, and I have good experiences with the brand. Otherwise, I'd stick with known brands like Corsair, NZXT, or CoolerMaster. Stay away from Enermax.
The AMD 5000 series CPUs don't supply stock coolers. Here's the recommendations: Liquid or Air CPU Coolers | Ryzen™ Desktop Processors

I'm also happy to see cooler compatibility guides, such as: Noctua Compatibility Centre
If you decide against water cooling, you can't go wrong sticking with Noctua. I repurposed the two NF-A12 fans from my CPU cooler to use on my radiator.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and BEYOND!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Folding@home is good, but it's not what I would define as a torture test. From the last time we did this:
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:10 pm ^^^ Thanks. I'm running folding@home because I'm supporting the cause and that I like maxing out my PC. It's not really a torture test.

If you want to torture your CPU, Prime95 with a large FFT will kill it in no time flat. MSI Kombustor will torture your GPU.

...
Regarding your CPU temperatures, the ones reported on-chip (Tdie, etc.) are the most important ones to monitor - they're also accurate. You just have to understand how the heat flows from the chip to the cooler and out the case.

For my cooling - Yes, I've decided to stick with air cooling and go with Noctua fans.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and BEYOND!!!

Post by Independent George »

I figured out the temperature issue; I had been used to running in eco mode, but my BIOS reset when it detected new hardware (especially having nothing plugged into the CPU fan headers). Once I re-enabled eco mode, my CPU temps went back down to 49 C, 10% below air cooling with literally zero noise.
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:54 am Folding@home is good, but it's not what I would define as a torture test. From the last time we did this:
LadyGeek wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:10 pm ^^^ Thanks. I'm running folding@home because I'm supporting the cause and that I like maxing out my PC. It's not really a torture test.

If you want to torture your CPU, Prime95 with a large FFT will kill it in no time flat. MSI Kombustor will torture your GPU.

...
Regarding your CPU temperatures, the ones reported on-chip (Tdie, etc.) are the most important ones to monitor - they're also accurate. You just have to understand how the heat flows from the chip to the cooler and out the case.

For my cooling - Yes, I've decided to stick with air cooling and go with Noctua fans.
I've never noticed any difference between Folding versus Prime95 in CPU stress; just to confirm, I ran it on max for an hour; CPU temps held steady at 48 C, which is pretty much the same as Folding. I prefer to fold because I also think it's a better cause than calculating prime numbers.

I use Furmark to stress the GPU, and it held steady at 39 C after an hour. Even if I keyed my pumps to GPU temp instead of CPU, that would still be below the first threshold to increase power; my curve is set to 25% as a baseline, going up to 40% when temps exceed 45 degrees (with additional increments of 20% every 10 degrees C). On testing with the cover off, I can't even hear the pump until it hits 80%, and even then I have to put my ear right next to it. It is audible at 100%, but only just barely.

I don't think I can ever go back to air cooling. Even with the added expense and time, I've never had a completely silent PC before, and now everything else (such as my laptop) sounds like a jet engine.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

So after some research, I have a theory on why my CPU reaches higher temps than my GPU under full load: I think it's because the integrated heat spreader on the back of the CPU is thick enough to create a temperature gradient between the actual chip and the cold plate.

A GPU is delidded by default - when you install the water block, the cold plate makes direct contact with the chip. On a CPU, though, there's 2mm or so of heat spreader between the silicon and the cold plate. This conducts heat well enough to cool within spec, but because there's more distance between the heat source (the physical cpu) and coolant, it has both a higher equilibrium temperature, and higher spikes.

This is not an issue for even power users compiling code or rendering 3d graphics; 75C is well below Tj Max, and will neither throttle nor reduce lifespan. However, this is the reason hardcore overclockers de-lid the cpu - even when you're working with something as cold as liquid nitrogen, you want as little as possible between the chip and the nitro.

I have no desire to delid, and you couldn't pay me to touch the liquid metal that overclockers use (it's both electrically conductive, and it's reactive with the pcb). I was just curious why the CPU reached such a higher max temp versus the GPU despite drawing less power, and I'm satisfied with this theory.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Researching your research :), I'm not so sure on that, as this YouTube video shows negligible difference with / without the CPU heat spreader.

- 9900K Insanity Edition - Liquid Metal + Direct Die Cooling!

Tutorial (for me) - Installation of a GPU water block: How to Install a Waterblock on a GPU: Liquid Cooling Your Graphics Card | Tom's Hardware

To me, they're 2 different heat sources. I don't understand why they need to be the same temperature. What you should be looking at is the temperature differential (thermal resistance). (It's possible I misinterpreted what you've stated.)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Slacker »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:28 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:19 pm Looking at cooling, it seems that liquid coolers have made enough progress (and price drops) where I would consider an "all in one" vs. fan cooling. There are a lot of decisions, especially since I want to keep fan noise as low as possible. I'm not about to attempt anything like Independent George, but if the choice comes close, I'll think about a liquid cooler.
The 5600X and 5800X are by a huge margin the most efficient x86 processors most of the major publications have ever tested, so water cooling may not be necessary.
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:19 pmThe AMD 5000 series CPUs don't supply stock coolers. Here's the recommendations: Liquid or Air CPU Coolers | Ryzen™ Desktop Processors
5600X comes with a Wraith Spire, 5800X and up comes with no cooler. So in effect--at least the last time I looked--the 5800X is $130+cooler more expensive than the 5600X.
Microcenter should be carrying the 5800x for about $350. For comparison the MSRP on the 5600x is $300 and the microcenter price is $260. Prices have come down a bit for these making the 5800x look like the best deal if you have a cooler already.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:00 am ^^^ Researching your research :), I'm not so sure on that, as this YouTube video shows negligible difference with / without the CPU heat spreader.

- 9900K Insanity Edition - Liquid Metal + Direct Die Cooling!

Tutorial (for me) - Installation of a GPU water block: How to Install a Waterblock on a GPU: Liquid Cooling Your Graphics Card | Tom's Hardware

To me, they're 2 different heat sources. I don't understand why they need to be the same temperature. What you should be looking at is the temperature differential (thermal resistance). (It's possible I misinterpreted what you've stated.)
According to the video, under sustained load, direct die + liquid metal was about 9 C cooler than with the heat spreader + liquid metal, and 11 C cooler at peak. That's actually similar to the GPU/CPU spread I'm currently observing on eco mode - my CPU goes up to 49 C, and my GPU holds steady at 41 C. (As a sidenote, installing the GPU waterblock was the most nerve-wracking part of building the loop, because (1) the chip is exposed to my clumsy sausage fingers, (2) the thermal paste acts like glue on the cold plate, and requires a sharp tug to separate them; I checked three times to make sure I got all the screws out, and I prayed the entire time that I wouldn't crack the PCB in half, and (3) once you attach the waterblock, there is no way to know if you did it correctly until you power on the entire system).

While I get that they're two entirely different components, based on the power draw (130 W sustained/150 peak for the GPU, versus a steady 55 W for the CPU), I'd expect the temps to be reversed when cooled on the same loop. What would be interesting is if I had a Radeon 6000 series GPU, which uses the same TSMC 7nm node as the 5900X; as much as I'd love to test a 6800XT in the name of science, prices are just too ridiculous for me to try.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Ridiculous pricing is putting things mildly.

I got around to searching for a GPU and figured the NVidia GeForce RTX 3060 Ti XC would be a good choice. Best Graphics Cards for Gaming in 2021 threw up a big red flag on GPU pricing and availability. They were right.

The EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti XC has an MSRP of 469.99,

Newegg pricing is 479.99, but is showing out of stock and tagged as a "hot item". This limits availability to customers who only use the card as part of a complete system build.

Amazon has cards, but the lowest price I could find is 858.95 :shock: My local Micro Center is out of stock at 479.99. Other GPU cards are commanding insanely high prices.

On the plus side, the Ryzen 7 5800X price dropped to 399.99.

At this point, it might be worthwhile to wait this out. My laptop is holding its own for what I need to do now. If it fails, I'll replace it. My desktop work will then go back to my first build - what I'm using now. It's dual boot Win 10 / Linux, so I have what I need.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Late last week, I decided to go after EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti XC.

It simply ended in frustration, as both Newegg and EVGA (direct) are holding lotteries. Newegg calls it the "Newegg Shuffle" and EVGA forces you to sign-up for an account and then be put on a wait list. My local Micro Center is restricting purchases to in-store only with highly restrictive purchasing rules - must show up at the store in 20 minutes, for example.

Amazon has the GPU, but at inflated prices. MSRP is 469.99

Last Friday, I very briefly saw Amazon show a price of 529.99 but I was unable to add it to my cart. "Gone in 60 Seconds". The next best price is by the 3rd party resellers. You're taking a chance on gray market here, which is something I won't do.

I found a reseller who promised shipping from the US with a US warranty. The price a few days ago was 828.00.

My emotion got the better of me. I can afford the inflated GPU prices, so why wait for months-on-end for the price to drop? I wait a day and decide to buy from this reseller. The price jumped to 868.00. :shock: I can't take this volatility and it simply took all the enthusiasm out of the purchase. I decided not to buy the card and will probably wait for a price near MSRP. (Unless I change my mind again or my current GPU card fails.)

At the time of this post, the pricing ranges from 819.99 to 1,100.00
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

Just don't buy - MSRP is fictional, even at the current inflated pricing. The 60 series cards belong at the $300 price point, and their actual street price is $800+.

Your most likely choice for an MSRP card is the 6600XT, whose street price is actually close to its already-inflated $379 MSRP. This would be a sub-$300 card in a normal year, but they were actually in stock last week for $400-450, which I suppose counts as a deal in this market. I would just wouldn't buy anything at all in this market. The only other cards that show up at MSRP is the 6800XT at the AMD web shop, or the random Nvidia drops at Best Buy (first come, first serve at the physical location).

On the positive side, the CPU shortage is officially over. You can find Intel 11th gen and AMD Zen 3 chips in stock at or below MSRP everywhere.

I'm randomly checking the AMD website on the off chance the 6800XT is available, but I'm not holding my breath. Intel is expected to have their consumer GPUs out in Q1 2022 at the earliest, which is awful close to the expected next gen releases from Nvidia and AMD (Q3 and Q4 of 2022). I don't expect stock to show up until the crypto market crashes.

And on that note, I've decided that if I can't beat them, I'll join them, and started mining crypto on my rig. The custom loop keeps my hardware silent and cool, but the real question is what happens when I cash out. My 'wallet' says I have about $12 from a week of mining; I expect to add about $10 to my monthly electricity bill. I have no idea how hard it is to convert that into real money, but I fully intend to keep records and report it to the IRS on next year's 1040.
tortoise84
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

I got an EVGA 3080 Ti FTW3 Ultra through the Newegg Shuffle for MSRP $1400. Actually I've gotten several cards at MSRP: 5700 XT (bought before prices went crazy), 3060 (Newegg Shuffle), 3070 Ti (EVGA queue). Each time I upgraded, I sold the old card on eBay for a profit. Otherwise, I would never pay $1400 for a GPU. So just keep trying in the Newegg Shuffle/EVGA/Best Buy/Micro Center/etc and eventually you'll get one.

Anyway, the 3080 Ti is pretty much my last upgrade for now, and it really is a beast. It runs MS Flight Sim 2020 at 85 fps 1440p Ultra, and most of my other games at the full 144Hz supported by my G-Sync monitor. One concern is the power consumption of 400W. I have a 1000VA/600W UPS and with the GPU at 100%, if the CPU utilization on my 5600X also peaks at the same time (PPT ~105W), it will actually trip an overload alarm on my UPS. So for now, I'm limiting the GPU to 360W until I can get a bigger UPS. Another concern is the heat, with the GPU at 78C/hot spot 88C. I actually had a few crashes so now I'm running it with my case side panel off (which is actually already a vented panel) and it's been fine. So I think water-cooling should definitely be considered for a 3080 or above.
Topic Author
Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

tortoise84 wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:05 pm I got an EVGA 3080 Ti FTW3 Ultra through the Newegg Shuffle for MSRP $1400. Actually I've gotten several cards at MSRP: 5700 XT (bought before prices went crazy), 3060 (Newegg Shuffle), 3070 Ti (EVGA queue). Each time I upgraded, I sold the old card on eBay for a profit. Otherwise, I would never pay $1400 for a GPU. So just keep trying in the Newegg Shuffle/EVGA/Best Buy/Micro Center/etc and eventually you'll get one.

Anyway, the 3080 Ti is pretty much my last upgrade for now, and it really is a beast. It runs MS Flight Sim 2020 at 85 fps 1440p Ultra, and most of my other games at the full 144Hz supported by my G-Sync monitor. One concern is the power consumption of 400W. I have a 1000VA/600W UPS and with the GPU at 100%, if the CPU utilization on my 5600X also peaks at the same time (PPT ~105W), it will actually trip an overload alarm on my UPS. So for now, I'm limiting the GPU to 360W until I can get a bigger UPS. Another concern is the heat, with the GPU at 78C/hot spot 88C. I actually had a few crashes so now I'm running it with my case side panel off (which is actually already a vented panel) and it's been fine. So I think water-cooling should definitely be considered for a 3080 or above.
I just can't get behind the $1,400 MSRP even though I do have the money to buy it. I'm hoping to pick one up cheap if/when the crypto boom crashes; in the meantime, I net about $1.20 mining for 18 hours/day. Given the power consumption of the 3080, I would absolutely look into watercooling. You might want to consider putting your 5600X on eco mode - the peak CPU package power on my 5900X is 87W.

Custom loops are fun to build, and shockingly nowhere near as difficult as I feared. Parts are now pretty standard, so as long as you don't do something crazy like hard tubing, it's about one solid afternoon's worth of work to get a dead silent PC running all out. It's expensive (about $600 at a minimum, more if you try something more interesting), but if you already spent $1,400 on a GPU, a little extra time and money to get it cool and quiet is probably worth it.

The downside is that once you get into the habit, it's nigh impossible to go back, and you're committed to buying the top-end cards from now on (because those are the ones they make water blocks for). I was quite shocked to discover that there even was a water block for the RX580 (a $200 card when it was released in 2017, and which I bought in 2019 for around $150), but now that the street price is $400+, I feel less ridiculous for building my loop. Still ridiculous, but considerably less so than if it were a $50 card (which it should be, but 2021).
tortoise84
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

I don't really want to run my 5600X in eco mode because I'm trying to get as much performance out of it as I can. Also the 105W PPT isn't that much and can easily be handled by my Arctic Liquid Freezer II 120mm AIO water cooler. To be honest, I think spending $500+ on a 5900X and then limiting it to 87W is a bit of a waste.

Coincidentally, last night my turn came up in the EVGA queue to buy a 3080 Ti XC3 Ultra Hybrid with an AIO water cooler for $1400, but I passed. If I didn't already have an air cooled 3080 Ti, it would be a better deal instead of paying $600 for custom loop water cooling parts. Although I'm also intrigued with building a custom loop, but alas, I still like to consider the economics of it and it doesn't really seem worthwhile.
Topic Author
Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

tortoise84 wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:23 pm I don't really want to run my 5600X in eco mode because I'm trying to get as much performance out of it as I can. Also the 105W PPT isn't that much and can easily be handled by my Arctic Liquid Freezer II 120mm AIO water cooler. To be honest, I think spending $500+ on a 5900X and then limiting it to 87W is a bit of a waste.

Coincidentally, last night my turn came up in the EVGA queue to buy a 3080 Ti XC3 Ultra Hybrid with an AIO water cooler for $1400, but I passed. If I didn't already have an air cooled 3080 Ti, it would be a better deal instead of paying $600 for custom loop water cooling parts. Although I'm also intrigued with building a custom loop, but alas, I still like to consider the economics of it and it doesn't really seem worthwhile.
You're almost certainly GPU limited on flight simulator, especially on ultra settings; CPU matters primarily for either strategy games, or for competitive gamers trying to maximize FPS at low resolutions. If the 3080 is drawing enough to trip your UPS, reducing the draw of the CPU should alleviate that without losing any performance. I originally turned eco mode on (and, for that matter, undervolted my GPU) in order to minimize fan RPM back when I air cooled, and left it on because it made no appreciable difference in performance. Single core boost remains unchanged in eco mode; multithreading takes about a 10% performance hit, but dramatically reduces temps and power consumption (which also helps with mining). I get a sustained 45 C while mining, and the occasional 55 C spikes while playing dwarf fortress; that goes up to 59 and 79 with eco mode disabled. I wanted the 5900X for the extra threads, not because it boosted higher (because it doesn't).

Custom loops never make any sense on pure economics, but the $600 is just the initial cost; all of the components except for the GPU water block ($150-$200) can be recycled. My plan going forward is to upgrade GPU with each generation, selling the previous one when I upgrade. If GPU prices come back down to earth, my cost of ownership would come out to roughly $500 every two years (sell the old card for ~$500, buy a new one + water block for ~$1,000). If prices on the 80 series keeps going up... I'll have to re-evaluate, but in terms of quality of life, I absolutely love how quiet it is even running at full load.
tortoise84
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

Ok I tried eco mode and it limited my 5600X to 60W PPT. In CPU intensive parts of Flight Sim like around airports and cities there was a significant drop in frame rates down to the 20s causing lots of stuttering which made it unplayable. The clock speed could only hit 3.7 GHz at the PPT limit. Normal boost clock is 4.7 GHz. This was also with curve optimizer -25 on all cores (undervolt). So eco mode does not work well in my use case.

A stock Founder's Edition 3080 Ti is only supposed to draw 350W, so I figure that reducing my GPU from 400W to 360W will still give me a bit more performance than stock, so I'd rather do that than reduce my CPU power. It's really only an artificial use case where the GPU and CPU are running at peak power at the same time anyway, like when I tried to run Unigine Heaven Benchmark and Cinebench at the same time. Anyway, one of my other UPSs just died (7 yrs old), so I'll just move up plans to get a new UPS for my gaming PC and use this 600W UPS on my other computer.
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