PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

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LadyGeek
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

madbrain wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:01 am Worst news of the (very long) night - when I removed the old motherboard, I decided to remove the NH-D14 Noctua cooler, and also the CPU, so I could sell them separately. The cooler was very easy. When I pulled the 5820k CPU out of it, one of the pins on the motherboard just disintegrated before my eyes. At least, one that I saw. I have no idea if it's a pin that's actually used for something. I think maybe running 6 years at the max stable overclock I could find, which took literally weeks of running Prime95, might have caused the motherboard pins to become brittle. I have not tried to put the CPU back in and do a post test to see if the board still boots up or not. Even if it does, it's hard to say if problems would show up later during usage. So, I may not be able to get much for the used X99A Raider motherboard, as I have sell it as is. I should just have left the CPU on it and sold it as bundle.
Did you first pull the Noctua cooler off the CPU, then take the CPU out of the socket? I'm betting that placed enough stress on the CPU socket to fracture the pin. You might have had better luck pulling the CPU / cooler together. Then, slide the CPU off the cooler baseplate. Hindsight is 20/20.

I'm betting other pins are ready to fail. At this point, consider scrapping the board instead of selling something that probably won't work. Or, give it away.
madbrain wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:23 am I went through device manager and deleted every single hidden device that was disabled (greyed out), most of them start with the name "Intel"...
Glad that worked out for you. Long nights can sometimes cause you to miss important stuff - Make sure you have that working configuration backed up (and get your backup plan running).
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

madbrain wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:01 am Unfortunately, while the motherboard has 6 slots, one of the x1 slots is always covered by the GPU, unless one uses a single slot GPU.
You can get an extension cable like this: https://www.amazon.com/GLOTRENDS-Extens ... 07N38Y799/
to move the PCIe x1 slot to a different location in your case. Note that even though they use a USB cable, it does not actually use USB signaling. The cable is just used to carry the original PCIe electrical signals without any conversion.

Or you can get an adapter like this: https://www.amazon.com/XT-XINTE-Adapter ... 07C79YLD9/
to convert an M.2 slot to a PCIe x4 slot, and then plug in any PCIe SATA card of your choosing.

Oh and a small tip I learned is to screw in all the tiny M.2 screws when I install the motherboard. That way you won't lose them.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:33 am Did you first pull the Noctua cooler off the CPU, then take the CPU out of the socket? I'm betting that placed enough stress on the CPU socket to fracture the pin. You might have had better luck pulling the CPU / cooler together. Then, slide the CPU off the cooler baseplate. Hindsight is 20/20.
Intel sockets have a metal frame that latches down over the CPU so it is not possible to remove the cooler with the CPU still stuck to it. It's not a good idea to do this on an AMD either because it may be very difficult to release the locking arm when it is underneath the CPU cooler, so you might pull a pin out.

The best way is to run the CPU to warm up the thermal paste and make it more viscous. Then twist the cooler gently to break the surface tension and slide it off while applying the least amount of force, particularly in the upwards direction (straight out of the socket) to avoid pulling the CPU out.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

tortoise84 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:37 am You can get an extension cable like this: https://www.amazon.com/GLOTRENDS-Extens ... 07N38Y799/
to move the PCIe x1 slot to a different location in your case. Note that even though they use a USB cable, it does not actually use USB signaling. The cable is just used to carry the original PCIe electrical signals without any conversion.

Or you can get an adapter like this: https://www.amazon.com/XT-XINTE-Adapter ... 07C79YLD9/
to convert an M.2 slot to a PCIe x4 slot, and then plug in any PCIe SATA card of your choosing.
Thanks. I saw one of those USB risers at Central Computers the other day. Wasn't sure exactly what it was for.

Not certain how much space there is for it in the x1 slot below the GPU - it is really tight. While there is plenty of space in my case I would have to mod my case to find a spot to attach the PCIe slot. Unfortunately, the HAF 932 advanced doesn't have an extra PCIe bracket, unlike my HAF XM case.
I would need a slightly longer USB cable also. Not sure what the max length would be. USB 3.1 Gen 2 which supports 10 Gbps has a max length limit of 1m. The included cable is 60cm. PCIe 3.0 x1 is about 8 Gbps. A 1 meter cable might work. Vendor actually says in the Amazon customer questions that 1 meter would work.

The M2 version might be better as it gives x4 instead of x1. The PCIe version (generation) supported isn't listed in the specs. Maybe the adapter is completely passive. The problem is the physical location of the M2 slots on the Prime X570 Pro motherboard. The M2_1 slot is partially covered by the Noctua heatsink, so it couldn't be used for this M2 to PCIe adapter. Unless an additional PCIe riser or extension cable was used, like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Timack-Express3- ... B0837FZFJ6
Looks too short, though, and probably can't get much longer due to signaling rate.

The M2_2 slot is under the GPU currently. I could move the GPU to the top slot and make some space. It might then work. The PCIe card would have nowhere to be attached to, though, so it wouldn't be stable. The card would overhang many existing wires, also. Not a great solution, though it would be a lot faster. I probably don't need unknown Gen x4 bandwidth, or even PCIe 3.0 x1 bandwidth. I could use a USB 3.0 or 3.1 to SATA bridge from one of the USB 3.0/3.1 ports on the back of the case, and move two optical drives to that adapter, freeing two motherboard SATA ports for the two additional SSDs I may want to add. I already have a USB 3.0 to SATA bridge somewhere in a drawer, but it's a bit bulky and the USB cable on it is short, something like 1ft. And it provides both power and data, and I just need data in this case. I probably don't want to power two optical drives from the motherboard USB ports. It doesn't seem like a data-only USB to SATA bridge exists. I didn't see any single bridge with two SATA ports, also. So, it looks I would need

Two USB to SATA bridges, like these. Looks like there are at least 3 different brands of chipsets available to do this. J-Micron, ASMedia, VIA. This one is ASMedia.
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-SAT ... CABLE&th=1

Two SATA data extensions cables. I could only find them in red. Perhaps black versions exist.
https://www.amazon.com/NSI-LK-13526-int ... ONIC_CABLE

I might need a couple USB extensions also, but probably not, if I use the adapters with the top 2 optical SATA drives. It would be a bit unsightly, though.
Oh and a small tip I learned is to screw in all the tiny M.2 screws when I install the motherboard. That way you won't lose them.
Too late for that, I'm afraid :( I blame the cats again for this. I found tons of screws mixed up on the floor last night. Could not find the open bag that had 3 M2 screws left in it. Sigh.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

madbrain wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:06 pm ...
Oh and a small tip I learned is to screw in all the tiny M.2 screws when I install the motherboard. That way you won't lose them.
Too late for that, I'm afraid :( I blame the cats again for this. I found tons of screws mixed up on the floor last night. Could not find the open bag that had 3 M2 screws left in it. Sigh.
Your cats are simply trying to forage for parts for their own pet project. Cat in computer case.

Once their project's complete, they won't need any more parts and shouldn't bother you further. :happy
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:30 pm Your cats are simply trying to forage for parts for their own pet project. Cat in computer case.

Once their project's complete, they won't need any more parts and shouldn't bother you further. :happy
Years ago, I noticed the cat was missing. Wondered if she had escaped. Went looking outside for hours. Couldn't find her. I was devastated. I got back to packing the computer case I was selling to ship it. You guessed it, the cat was inside the case.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:30 pm Once their project's complete, they won't need any more parts and shouldn't bother you further. :happy
One of my cats the in Corsair HX1200i PSU inner cardboard box during the build on Saturday. He is 17 lbs, which is down 5 lbs from peak. The PSU box is huge. The box did not break. It's back in the garage. I haven't put all the remaining parts away yet.

Image
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

tortoise84 wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:23 am Intel sockets have a metal frame that latches down over the CPU so it is not possible to remove the cooler with the CPU still stuck to it. It's not a good idea to do this on an AMD either because it may be very difficult to release the locking arm when it is underneath the CPU cooler, so you might pull a pin out.
Yes. On the socket 2011-3, there are too locking arms, also. Given the size of the Noctua heatsink, it would have been quite hard to unlock them first, though perhaps not impossible.
The best way is to run the CPU to warm up the thermal paste and make it more viscous. Then twist the cooler gently to break the surface tension and slide it off while applying the least amount of force, particularly in the upwards direction (straight out of the socket) to avoid pulling the CPU out.
FYI, the Noctua heatsink wasn't hard to remove. It required no force. As soon as the screws came out, it just popped up. So, I don't think that's what broke the motherboard pin(s). Anyway, it's water under the bridge, now. 6 years for a motherboard is not a bad run. I don't think I have had many last longer. Usually they get either moved to another case during an upgrade, or sold.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

madbrain wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:01 am And yes, I'll be posting some pictures.
So, after reverting to Lightroom Classic 10.4 due to a crazy import bug regression in Lightroom 11.0, here are the pictures.

Motherboard in case, without any drives or PCIe cards.

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All drives installed and powered, but no data connections. And yes, the PC was built in my bar.

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With the 6 SATA connections added.

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With all 5 PCIe cards installed, both SAS cables for the 8 SATA SSDs, and the card reader connected to USB 3.0 header (blue cable).
Image

Right side of the case showing cable management.

Image

Installing the huge Noctua NH-D15 heatsink.

Image

With both CPU fans installed.

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Completed case, closed. Left panel.

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Completed, inside view, while running.

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Top fan routing cleaned up.

Image

Rear fan routing cleaned up.
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8pin + 4pin CPU power cables intalled.
Image
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Nice. For the finishing touch, I usually place the product stickers on the top or front of the case. In my case, they're plastered all over the top.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:17 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:02 pm Is anyone with an AMD X570 / B550 chipset motherboard having USB mouse lag or dropped connections? By dropping a connection, I mean that the mouse suddenly disappears and reappears a few seconds later.
...

My current build (Ryzen 7 5800X) is giving me enough grief to want this fixed. I tried forcing my PCIe settings to Gen 3.0, but that didn't work. Neither did removing all of the hidden devices shown in Device Manager.

(Hidden devices are unused components that are still in the registry. It can cause problems and is why you should prefer to do clean installs vs. moving an existing drive from one PC to another. I removed all the hidden devices in the USB controllers, storage controllers, and Processors. It didn't help.)

I did find, however, that you can bypass the problem entirely by getting a PCIe to USB 3.0 card. Connect to your mouse and keyboard via PCIe instead of the USB controller. A cheap solution to a problem that's inherent in this design. Somewhere.

I just ordered a cheap card from Newegg: Rosewill RC-508 USB 3.0 PCI-E Express Card with 4 USB 3.0 Ports, Speed Up to 5.0 Gbps It's cheaper than the shipping cost if I had to return my motherboard, which I'm not about to do it unless it totally fails.
I forgot to mention that I'm running my RAM overclocked at 3600 MHz. I suspect that's contributing to the problem.

My PCIe USB 3.0 card won't arrive until Wednesday.
My PCIe USB 3.0 card arrived late yesterday ahead of schedule. I installed the card this morning and was very pleasantly surprised to see that it worked straight out of the box. BIOS recognized the keyboard and mouse, no issues. Windows recognized new hardware and installed the drivers. Device Manager is showing a new Renesas USB 3.0 eXtensible Host Controller - 1.0(Microsoft).

My intermittent mouse and keyboard problems have simply disappeared. I've never had mouse scrolling this smooth. This is yet another case of using hardware to fix a software problem.

Since madbrain is showing pictures, I took a quick photo while I had the case open. The Meshify-C (Compact) case is showing why it's called "Compact". There's not much room for expansion, nor to run cables exactly where I wanted.

You can see why there was no concern about RAM height with the Noctua NH-U12A cooler.

The intake case fan on the right is the Noctua NF-A12x15 PWM slim (15 mm) case fan. That's the lowest I could mount the fan. The shorter fan gave me some room to run the GPU power cable around the card. There's no space under the GPU card to run the cable otherwise.

The PCIe card is on the left, the next slot up from the GPU. The M.2 drive you see is from my prior build. (The 2nd M.2 slot is under the GPU.)

I didn't take a picture, but the top of the case has all of the stickers that came with the components - AMD, G.Skill, Asus TUF logo, and Noctua (nice metal sticker). Click on the image below to view full size.

Image
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:52 pm The PCIe card is on the left, the next slot up from the GPU. The M.2 drive you see is from my prior build. (The 2nd M.2 slot is under the GPU.)
The bottom x16 slot only does PCIe 4.0 x4 and is connected through the chipset instead of directly to the CPU, so you could be losing some performance from your GPU. Is there any reason why you're not using the top PCIe 4.0 x16 slot? If you want better cooling for your CPU you can add another intake fan at the front, top position.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Because until you mentioned that, I didn't know that the card slots have a common design and can be interchanged. :) I'll swap the card position tomorrow.

I do have the case fan that was replaced by the Noctua 15 mm slim fan. I'll consider adding the fan to cool the CPU, but balancing that against fan noise. My heavy-duty folding@home application is running on my Linux PC (not this build).
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:52 pm I didn't take a picture, but the top of the case has all of the stickers that came with the components - AMD, G.Skill, Asus TUF logo, and Noctua (nice metal sticker). Click on the image below to view full size.
Nice. I bought the tray version of my 5950X CPU, so no AMD sticker. My Asus motherboard did not come with a sticker. Neither did my Corsair LPX RAM. The Corsair HX1200i PSU and the NH-D15 do have stickers, though. This is the top.

Image
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

I can't for the life of me figure out why a manufacturer would make a depression that looks like it's intended to be a drink coaster on the top of a PC case right next to a fan grate.... :oops:
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

lazydavid wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:00 pm I can't for the life of me figure out why a manufacturer would make a depression that looks like it's intended to be a drink coaster on the top of a PC case right next to a fan grate.... :oops:
For those who use water cooling, there is a hole underneath the rubber part, which can be used as a fill port for the water reservoir.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/cool ... 932/3.html

In any case, it's a very tiny depression, less than 1cm deep, ideal to put small parts, such as screws, USB flash drives, SD cards, etc.

The case is quite tall, just under 24in with the wheels on. That leaves just 4inches of space between the top of the case and my table above. Not enough space to put any drink.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ I don't have any problems using the top of the case for holding your drink. Nothing can beat those cupholders I had in my old builds. Google "cd-rom tray as cupholder" for a blast from the past. :)

Regarding the picture - I assume you've put those screws in safe storage. Otherwise, your furry helpers will store them for you - and they won't tell you where.
tortoise84 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:48 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:52 pm The PCIe card is on the left, the next slot up from the GPU. The M.2 drive you see is from my prior build. (The 2nd M.2 slot is under the GPU.)
The bottom x16 slot only does PCIe 4.0 x4 and is connected through the chipset instead of directly to the CPU, so you could be losing some performance from your GPU. Is there any reason why you're not using the top PCIe 4.0 x16 slot? If you want better cooling for your CPU you can add another intake fan at the front, top position.
LadyGeek wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:17 pm Because until you mentioned that, I didn't know that the card slots have a common design and can be interchanged. :) I'll swap the card position tomorrow...
Slot position swapped. Works fine, thanks. Thinking harder, I vaguely remember having a card in one of my old builds that didn't fill the slot but it worked. It must have been a PCIe card.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:58 am Slot position swapped. Works fine, thanks. Thinking harder, I vaguely remember having a card in one of my old builds that didn't fill the slot but it worked. It must have been a PCIe card.
PCIe slots are all backwards and forwards compatible with the number of lanes (x1-x16) and the generation (1.0-4.0 and now the latest 5.0), except when a longer card e.g. x16 won't physically fit into a x1 slot. But even then, some slots have an open end so that a longer card will fit. The card and the motherboard will just use the highest number of lanes and generation that is common to both of them.

You also have to check the specs of your motherboard carefully, because like in your case, the bottom x16 slot is limited to x4 lanes. You can see this if you look closely at the electrical contacts inside the slot, or on the back of the motherboard, and it will only be wired up for x4 lines.

Also on most motherboards, only the top x16 slot and top NVMe slot are connected directly to the CPU. The rest connect through the chipset and have to share a certain number of lanes between them. That's why you see limitations like slots getting disabled when you use another NVMe slot or SATA ports, or an x16 slot that is only wired up for x4 lanes.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

Come to think of it, you may have saturated the x4 lanes between your chipset and CPU when you put your graphics card in the bottom slot. These lanes are also shared with your USB ports so it may have caused your mouse to operate erratically. Perhaps you could try plugging your mouse and keyboard back into the motherboard USB ports to see if they are okay now?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks for the explanation. My motherboard is loaded as:

Slot - Description
1 - PCIe 4.0/3.0 x 16_1 slot (my PCIe USB 3.0 card) - top slot in picture
2 - PCIe 4.0 x 1_1 slot (short slot, empty)
3 - PCIe 4.0 x 16_2 slot (GPU)
4 - PCIe 4.0 x 1_2 slot (short slot, empty) - bottom slot under GPU

My USB mouse and keyboard were plugged into the motherboard USB ports when I first had the problem.

I did a quick test and plugged the USB mouse and keyboard back into the motherboard. I didn't see the problem, but I now have a PCIe USB card in the mix. I may not have tested it long enough to see the problem, though.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:58 am ^^^ I don't have any problems using the top of the case for holding your drink. Nothing can beat those cupholders I had in my old builds. Google "cd-rom tray as cupholder" for a blast from the past. :)
Most PCs I have built since the early 1990s have had tower cases I have never thought of putting a drink on top of them. Drink is always on my desk. If it spills, it destroys the AZERTY keyboard. Thankfully, Amazon stocks those, now. For the longest time, I used an AT keyboard with an AT to PS2 adapter, and I think at one point even AT to PS2 to USB.
Regarding the picture - I assume you've put those screws in safe storage. Otherwise, your furry helpers will store them for you - and they won't tell you where.
In 9 years of owning this case, I have never had any cat try to grab things from the top, including my 2 previous cats who died of old age, and the 3 current ones who are now 4.5 years old. So, no, the screws are still on top.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

tortoise84 wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:59 pm PCIe slots are all backwards and forwards compatible with the number of lanes (x1-x16) and the generation (1.0-4.0 and now the latest 5.0), except when a longer card e.g. x16 won't physically fit into a x1 slot. But even then, some slots have an open end so that a longer card will fit.
There are risers also you can use to plug x16 cards into x1 slots. They won't perform well, of course. But sometimes the bandwidth isn't needed. I have read that some people use them to plug in GPUs to x1 slots for cryptomining. I guess that doesn't require a lot of PCIe bandwidth.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tuningfork »

The top of my case has the exhaust fans for my AIO CPU cooler. Spilling a drink on top of the case could be an expensive disaster.

My cat likes to sit on top of the case. Not sure if it's because of the hot air exhaust, or if it's just a convenient cat-sized pedestal. He sometimes tries to sharpen his claws in the metal screen fan grille.

One of my cases has the power/reset buttons and USB ports on top. My cat would sometimes power off the computer when sitting on the case. I keep a piece of cardboard on top of that case to block the buttons. Never again will I buy a case with the buttons on top.

The cat also likes to sit atop my scanner. He has powered it on and initiated a scan, although he hasn't yet figured out how to open the flatbed cover to scan himself.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

tuningfork wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:04 pm The top of my case has the exhaust fans for my AIO CPU cooler. Spilling a drink on top of the case could be an expensive disaster.
That is the most common PC tower disaster - especially since many people like to put it on the floor underneath the desk. It's extraordinarily easy for a spilled drink to flow down into the top vents and fry the entire system. The nice thing about having a wireless mouse & keyboard is that I can store the PC high on a shelf opposite my desk without tangling anything (the monitor and ethernet cables can be tucked away and hidden behind the furniture).
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:44 pm Thanks for the explanation. My motherboard is loaded as:

Slot - Description
1 - PCIe 4.0/3.0 x 16_1 slot (my PCIe USB 3.0 card) - top slot in picture
2 - PCIe 4.0 x 1_1 slot (short slot, empty)
3 - PCIe 4.0 x 16_2 slot (GPU)
4 - PCIe 4.0 x 1_2 slot (short slot, empty) - bottom slot under GPU

My USB mouse and keyboard were plugged into the motherboard USB ports when I first had the problem.

I did a quick test and plugged the USB mouse and keyboard back into the motherboard. I didn't see the problem, but I now have a PCIe USB card in the mix. I may not have tested it long enough to see the problem, though.
No, what I meant is this:

Slot - Description
1 - PCIe 4.0/3.0 x 16_1 slot (Graphics card) - top slot in picture. This slot supplies the full x16 lanes and is connected directly to the CPU.
2 - PCIe 4.0 x 1_1 slot (short slot, empty)
3 - PCIe 4.0 x 16_2 slot (empty) - this slot is only wired for x4 lanes and is connected through your X570 chipset so it shares lanes with the other slots, SATA ports, the bottom NVMe slot, USB ports, etc.
4 - PCIe 4.0 x 1_2 slot (PCIe USB 3.0 card) - if you find that moving your graphics card to the top slot doesn't fix your USB problems, then you should put your USB card here so that it doesn't block your GPU intake fan.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

OK, I missed your explanation that the GPU should be put in the top slot. That makes sense.

Unfortunately, the card won't fit in that slot due to interference from just about everything that's in-line and slightly above that PCIe slot. I would also have to move the M.2 drive to the 2nd slot.

Note to self: Don't buy a compact case for the next build. Also, consider a CPU that comes with an "Intel inside" sticker.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:49 pm OK, I missed your explanation that the GPU should be put in the top slot. That makes sense.

Unfortunately, the card won't fit in that slot due to interference from just about everything that's in-line and slightly above that PCIe slot. I would also have to move the M.2 drive to the 2nd slot.

Note to self: Don't buy a compact case for the next build. Also, consider a CPU that comes with an "Intel inside" sticker.
Some motherboards have multiple x16 slots connected to the GPU. My Prime X570 Pro does. You can use either one x16 card, or two x8 cards. I have my RTX 3060Ti GPU in the middle slot, operating at x8, in order to not interfere with the Noctua NH-D15 cooler. The smaller LSI SAS card is in the top x16 slot, also operating at x8. There is a also third x16 slot at the bottom, which is connected to the chipset. That one only supports x4 electronically, and is connected to the chipset. I have my Aquantia 10gig NIC in there.

In general, I would say that huge GPU + small case = not a great combo. I never had a GPU this big until now.

I did unfortunately run into one major issue with my Windows 10 partition that hadn't been reinstalled from the Intel machine. I needed to run Virtualbox. I had to enabled SVM in the BIOS. Once I did, everything in the OS went to hell. Things I reported before, like Task manager not opening, apps taking forever to start, multi-minute boot, disk commits not taking. Booting from an SSD with fresh OS reinstall (either Win10 or Win11) doesn't show this problem. So, unfortunately, looks like I'm not able to avoid a full OS and app reinstall. It's in process now. Sigh :-( I do have good backups on the NAS, so no data will be lost. But reinstalling and reconfiguring all the apps is a PITA, given the amount of crap Windows keeps in the registry. Like all the printer paper profiles for the various types of paper on both my laser printer and inkjet photo printer. And there are 5 screenshots worth of add/remove programs. And reinstalling them is just the easy part.

Other than the initial weirdness with the GPU not working, I haven't seen anything yet that looks like a hardware fault, or driver fault. I guess I have been lucky with the USB. I did not try to put the GPU in the bottom slot. It would not be possible to make that mistake in my case, as a dual-slot GPU would have the PSU in the way. Only a single-slot GPU could be installed at the bottom.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:49 pm OK, I missed your explanation that the GPU should be put in the top slot. That makes sense.

Unfortunately, the card won't fit in that slot due to interference from just about everything that's in-line and slightly above that PCIe slot. I would also have to move the M.2 drive to the 2nd slot.

Note to self: Don't buy a compact case for the next build. Also, consider a CPU that comes with an "Intel inside" sticker.
I am certain everything fits based on this person's build: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/FbXv6h
Hint: you can filter completed builds on PCPartPicker down to the same case, CPU cooler and motherboard that you have.

You should not move your M.2 drive. It won't get directly blasted with hot air from the GPU because that section is blocked by the PCIe connector and slot. You only have to worry if the M.2 slot is BELOW the GPU's slot because that's where the hot air comes directly out of the heatsink fins, like where your bottom M.2 slot is.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:49 pm OK, I missed your explanation that the GPU should be put in the top slot. That makes sense.

Unfortunately, the card won't fit in that slot due to interference from just about everything that's in-line and slightly above that PCIe slot. I would also have to move the M.2 drive to the 2nd slot.
You would not have to move the M.2. It does not conflict with the top PCIe slot. That said, the lower M.2 slot does have a heatsink that would help the drive run cooler, and is where I have mine installed. The only thing in your picture that might have to be tweaked a bit is the cable coming from your rear fan.

Remember, this is the primary PCIe slot that every single motherboard expects your GPU to be installed in. Until last week, I had this 4.5 lb, triple-slot monstrosity installed there:

Image

It is WAY bigger than your 3060. You would want to tuck the power cable under the end of the card, but you will clear the front fan handily.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks to both! I didn't know that slot was intended for the GPU. I had put the GPU on the lower slot because I was concerned that heat from the GPU would impact the CPU cooler. I'll make the swap when I have time.

- Move GPU to upper PCIe slot. The only thing I'm concerned about is accessing the SATA drive connectors which will then be under the card.
- Move M.2 drive to the lower M.2 slot.
- Move PCIe card to the lower PCIe 4.0 x 1_2 slot.
- Reinstall the stock case fan as a second intake (above the slim Noctua fan). This is the one that got replaced by the 15 mm slim fan.

I'm wondering if I have a GPU and motherboard combination that hits all the worst-case timing windows. During a Zoom call yesterday, I was getting notifications that my default microphone was changing between my USB webcam and onboard audio mixer. The notifications were every few minutes and swapped between the two.

As I'm typing this post, I have the Sound settings open to view the Input device. It just swapped the input device as I described in real-time. :shock: It's happening every few minutes. I then checked the connection. Yup, it's plugged into the motherboard USB port. I moved the webcam connection to the PCIe card. So far, so good.

Hopefully, moving the GPU to a different spot in the motherboard architecture will fix the USB controller timing problems.

Update: See below.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

I bet that will fix it. Your USB issue reminds me a lot of interrupt issues that we had to deal with back in the day. I'm sure it's not exactly the same, but that's kinda what it feels like. It probably is bandwidth starvation at some level. And again, don't feel like you need to move the M.2. The top slot is tied to the CPU, which in theory is more performant than the bottom slot (which is tied to the chipset), and there's no conflict from a physical space or PCIe lane perspective with the GPU slot.

And don't worry about the heat. Your processor cooling will probably improve a fair bit, with the smooth backplane of the GPU in combination with reinstalling the OE case fan creating a nice wind tunnel effect (which your M.2 will also benefit from if you leave it where it is). And the GPU will have more room to cool itself, so win-win!
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:49 pm Note to self: Don't buy a compact case for the next build. Also, consider a CPU that comes with an "Intel inside" sticker.
madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:28 pm In general, I would say that huge GPU + small case = not a great combo. I never had a GPU this big until now.
I'm the opposite. My goal is to fit the biggest and most powerful GPU I can get, into the smallest case possible. :D My previous build had a 3080 Ti in a SAMA IM01 Micro ATX case under 12" tall:

Image

View from the top down with radiator in place:

Image

Full build on PCPartPicker: https://pcpartpicker.com/b/mG4nTW
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:10 am I bet that will fix it. Your USB issue reminds me a lot of interrupt issues that we had to deal with back in the day. I'm sure it's not exactly the same, but that's kinda what it feels like. It probably is bandwidth starvation at some level. And again, don't feel like you need to move the M.2. The top slot is tied to the CPU, which in theory is more performant than the bottom slot (which is tied to the chipset), and there's no conflict from a physical space or PCIe lane perspective with the GPU slot.

And don't worry about the heat. Your processor cooling will probably improve a fair bit, with the smooth backplane of the GPU in combination with reinstalling the OE case fan creating a nice wind tunnel effect (which your M.2 will also benefit from if you leave it where it is). And the GPU will have more room to cool itself, so win-win!
Yes, I agree on the timing issues. Nothing has changed in the many years of dealing with interrupt issues. The only difference is the width of the data bus and clock speed.

Thanks for the encouragement. I updated my post to not move the M.2.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:01 am - Move GPU to upper PCIe slot. The only thing I'm concerned about is accessing the SATA drive connectors which will then be under the card.
- Move M.2 drive to the lower M.2 slot.
Yes, like the previous poster said, leave your M.2 drive in the top slot, because that's the primary slot connected directly to your CPU.

The SATA ports point towards the side of the motherboard specifically so that they can still be used underneath a long GPU.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

tortoise84 wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 7:11 am
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:49 pm Note to self: Don't buy a compact case for the next build. Also, consider a CPU that comes with an "Intel inside" sticker.
madbrain wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:28 pm In general, I would say that huge GPU + small case = not a great combo. I never had a GPU this big until now.
I'm the opposite. My goal is to fit the biggest and most powerful GPU I can get, into the smallest case possible. :D My previous build had a 3080 Ti in a SAMA IM01 Micro ATX case under 12" tall:
Yeah, despite my lack of a GPU, I had so much fun with this build, my goal for the next one (in, say... 2023) is to see just how overpowered a system I can fit and cool with a custom loop inside a sub-20L mini-ITX case. I've already decided on calling that one the Defiant. Hopefully, the system won't be drawing 1kW then. Assuming I do actually get my hands on a GPU next year, I'd still consider this a 2020 build.

It sounds like, after stagnating for about a decade, we're entering a new period of hyper-competition between the big players (which now includes Apple). If/when supply chain issues diminish, that should be great news for the enthusiast market.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

tortoise84 wrote: Sat Nov 06, 2021 7:46 pm I have a Netgear MS510TX (1x10GbE, 1xSFP+, 2x5GbE, 2x2.5GbE, 4x1GbE) and it does have a fan that emits a quiet but high pitched noise. Luckily my Cat5e runs all go back to a central closet in my laundry, so that's where I put the switch and a NAS with its hard drives to contain the noise.

The fanless switches I have seen only have up to 2 10GbE ports because that's all the heat they can handle, but there are some that supposedly have quiet on-demand fans that you might want to look into:

QNAP QSW-M408-4C: 4x10GbE/SFP+ combo ports, 8x1GbE
QNAP QSW-2104-2T: 2x10GbE, 4x2.5GbE, fanless
Zyxel XGS1250-12: 3x10GbE, 1xSFP+, 8x1GbE
I checked out your MS510TX. Many reviewers call it noisy. The QSW-2104-2T is fanless, but only has two 10gig ports, which is just not enough.

I became aware of the TP-Link TL-SX105 yesterday, which is a 5-port 100/1000/2500/5000/10000 switch, ie. NBASE-T. No support for 10 BASE-T, which I don't need, but some very old devices might. I don't think I have any left in the house. Those would be mostly from the 1990s.

This big attraction is that this switch is completely fanless. It's the first fanless switch I have seen with more than two 10GBASE-T ports.
It's $349. It seems to be unobtainium online. Not in stock at Amazon, Provantage, B&H Photo, etc. However, it was available at my nearest local retailer, Central Computers, in a quantity of 1. I picked one up earlier today. There are more units at other Central Computer stores.

It was a huge relief when I powered down the Trendnet TEG-7080ES switch I have been using the last 2.5 years, and working next to.
Of course, the fanless switch is only 5 ports vs 8 ports. That exactly meets my current needs. The TL-SX105 takes about one minute to boot, though, much slower than the Trendnet. It's completely unmanaged, so there better not be any firmware bugs.

One port goes to the Comcast XB7 (2.5Gig), 1 port to my desktop (10gig), 1 port to NAS (10gig), 1 port going to the GS110MX in switch in my home theater (10gig), and 1 port to a 16-port 1gig switch. So, all 5 are in use. All the ports negotiated at the expected speed, 3 at 10gig, one at 2.5gig, one at 1gig. If I want to expand to more rooms, I would have to add another switch, and it wouldn't be as optimal - it wouldn't switch at >1gig speed between all the ports. But I don't think this will be a big issue. I will just have to schedule my backups to the NAS at different times. The switch is currently unavailable on Amazon, where it has only one very negative one-star review. I'm going to run a lot of traffic through it at full speed (iperf3) to see if I can get it to overheat. I'm thinking overnight iperf3 in both directions on the three 10gig machines. And Internet speedtest-cli in a loop on one of the 1gig devices. I'm paying for unlimited data, after all. If all goes well, I look forward to selling the TEG-7080ES with its two fans, and perhaps buying a second TL-SX105.

The TP-Link has a lifetime warranty but I would prefer not to have surprises. I'll check jumbo frame support too, though I'm not using them right now.

There is also an 8-port TL-SX1008 version, which has two fans, contrary to the Amazon description, and is reportedly quite noisy.
https://dongknows.com/tp-link-tl-sx1008 ... ch-review/ .
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Rework complete. Everything working as expected.

- Move GPU to upper PCIe slot.
- Move PCIe card to the lower PCIe 4.0 x 1_2 slot.
- Reinstall the stock case fan as a second intake (above the slim Noctua fan). This is the one that got replaced by the 15 mm slim fan.

I was able to move the 15 mm case fan a bit lower. There wasn't much room, but I figured that I wanted a bit more air flow under the GPU to move some of the hot air from the PSU (bottom, hidden) away from the GPU intake.

The gap between the intake fans is due to a cross-brace that would have blocked some of the upper fan's air intake. I moved the top fan higher to avoid the cross-brace.

I honestly don't hear any additional noise due to the added intake fan. Both of the stock case fans (exhaust - left, top intake - right) are 3-pin connectors. The Noctua intake fan is a 4-pin connector.

I threw in a picture of the top of my case. Click on the images to view full size.
Image

Top of the case:
Image
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:09 am - Reinstall the stock case fan as a second intake (above the slim Noctua fan). This is the one that got replaced by the 15 mm slim fan.
Actually it looks like the top front fan is blowing out of the case.

Also, there might be enough room for a standard 25 mm thick fan in front of your graphics card. Perhaps there was some tolerance in your case specifications.

By the way, did you try your mouse and webcam connected to your motherboard USB ports, and were there any issues?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks for the oversight. You're right. The top fan was in backwards. It's fixed. :oops: :D

Yes, there was enough room for a standard 25 mm thick fan in front of the GPU. There may be some tolerance to allow room for inserting / removing the card.

I'm testing with the mouse, keyboard, and webcam plugged into the motherboard USB ports. So far, I don't see any issues. I'll keep this configuration for a day or so to make sure.

Regardless, I'm short a rear USB port and will keep the PCIe card.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

It's been a day and I'm cautiously calling this problem fixed.

The only remaining problem is bluetooth. My stereo is connected to Win 10, but Win 10 says disconnected and the stereo doesn't show in the sound mixer taskbar. I've gone through all the usual debugging, but no joy. Something broke after a recent Win 10 update. I'll keep digging.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

The USB mouse problem hasn't resurfaced and I'm officially calling the problem fixed.

I finally fixed the bluetooth problem. The software was doing exactly as it should. It turns out that I had my stereo set to auto-connect when it detected a bluetooth device.

When Win 10 booted and started the bluetooth service, my stereo connected. There are multiple services running for each device, so I'm thinking the stereo wouldn't accept an additional service connection attempt.

When I disabled bluetooth auto-connect in the stereo, Win 10 was able to connect and configure it as a sound output device. It's working as expected.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

All of a sudden I lost video in my desktop again, about 2 weeks after putting in the new video card. Machine appeared to be starting up/shutting down fine, just no video. Did all the usual resets, tried the video card in another slot, etc. Since my son has a desktop now, I had him test the video card and it worked fine.

But since I was no longer able to use my desktop, I went to connect my laptop, and that's when it got wierd. That didn't work either. So I started troubleshooting the signal chain. Turns out the HDMI cable AND the port on my TV both went bad. 3 different cables (including the original) do not work with HDMI-2 and either my laptop or desktop. 2 of the three cables work fine on HDMI-3 with both the laptop and the desktop. The original one doesn't work on either input with either device.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Is it possible to do a factory reset on the TV? HDMI-2 might have gotten stuck in a weird state, i.e. not accepting connections.

Next, are you using 4k resolution? That would explain the cable. Those higher frequencies might exceed what it was designed to handle. Back down the resolution to something like 1920 x 1080p and see if that fixes anything.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:26 pm Is it possible to do a factory reset on the TV? HDMI-2 might have gotten stuck in a weird state, i.e. not accepting connections.
Yeah I may try that.
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:26 pmNext, are you using 4k resolution? That would explain the cable. Those higher frequencies might exceed what it was designed to handle. Back down the resolution to something like 1920 x 1080p and see if that fixes anything.
Yes, I am using 4k, and have been for 3.5 years on 3 different machines (Desktop, Surface Pro, laptop) with this same cable, which is a 4k rated 18Gbps. But I don't think that's the issue, as there's literally no output whatsoever, not even the BIOS splash screen. I could check, but I would be surprised if that was in 4k.

I should add that on my laptop (where I have the benefit of a screen that always works), the TV isn't even detected using the original cable or any cable plugged into HDMI-2. So there's no resolution to be selected.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:50 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:26 pm Is it possible to do a factory reset on the TV? HDMI-2 might have gotten stuck in a weird state, i.e. not accepting connections.
Yeah I may try that.
One more long shot - A dirty connector. Those connections are impossibly small, but perhaps taking a good look inside might see something out of whack. Also, checking that you truly are inserting the HDMI cable completely into the TV port connector. Obvious stuff, but you never know.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:09 pm One more long shot - A dirty connector. Those connections are impossibly small, but perhaps taking a good look inside might see something out of whack. Also, checking that you truly are inserting the HDMI cable completely into the TV port connector. Obvious stuff, but you never know.
No, I'm definitely all good on that account. :)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

Independent George wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:25 am It sounds like, after stagnating for about a decade, we're entering a new period of hyper-competition between the big players (which now includes Apple). If/when supply chain issues diminish, that should be great news for the enthusiast market.
Yes, the 12th gen Intel CPUs are very impressive with their performance and efficiency cores, and now AMD is cutting prices to remain competitive:

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X $341.66
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-5800X- ... 0815XFSGK/
https://www.walmart.com/ip/AMD-Ryzen-7- ... /950625545

AMD Ryzen 9 5900X $484 [edit 11/22/21]
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-5900X- ... 08164VTWH/

AMD Ryzen 7 5700G with integrated Radeon Vega 8 graphics: [edit 11/25/21] $280
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-5700G- ... 091J3NYVF/
https://www.walmart.com/ip/AMD-Ryzen-7- ... /981199214
https://www.newegg.com/amd-ryzen-7-5700 ... 6819113682

I've also seen the Ryzen 5 5600G as low as $229 which is pretty good for a Zen 3 with integrated graphics, but right now it's $239.

Intel 11th and 10th gen CPUs are also getting discounted. I saw these lowest prices this month, but the sale prices have ended:
i7-11700K $320
i5-11600K [edit 11/25/21]: $220 https://www.amazon.com/Intel-i5-11600K- ... 08X67YZBL/
i5-11400 $190
Last edited by tortoise84 on Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:09 pm One more long shot - A dirty connector. Those connections are impossibly small, but perhaps taking a good look inside might see something out of whack. Also, checking that you truly are inserting the HDMI cable completely into the TV port connector. Obvious stuff, but you never know.
Sadly, HDMI connectors are not the most reliable things there are, so I can easily believe that one of the HDMI connectors on the TV went bad. I have had trouble with the Marantz SR8015 in my bedroom, and a 5 year old HTPC. The HDMI board on the receiver was damaged, and it had to be replaced under warranty. The swap was very quick, though, but I had to pay $100 to ship it one way. Then, the Asus GT1030 GPU in the HTPC died inexplicably. The iGPU still functioned. That HTPC is rarely used, and I just couldn't understand these failures. I tried the GT1030 in another system just to be sure, and it wasn't detected at all. Nevertheless, the iGPU on the i5-6400 Skylake just wasn't up to the task of playing 4K HDR movies, and I forked over some money for a used GTX 1050Ti to replace the GT1030. It might have been smarter to wait a few months and get a new motherboard/CPU with an iGPU. But so far, my experience with iGPUs, from both AMD and Intel, has been very poor, when it came to playing 4K HDR movies, so I chose to replace the discrete GPU that was sure not to have a problem with movies, despite high prices.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by German Expat »

I was following your build thread for quite a while and hoping to snag a good graphics card eventually. Now with black Friday offers coming up in Europe I gave in and ordered a HP Omen. Pricing was 2200 CHF with a Ryzen 9 5900x and a Nvidia 3080 LHR. I was a bit surprised finding a decent amount of pre configured ones from various web sites in Germany or Switzerland (Aldi has one soon as well).

https://www.hp.com/ch-en/shop/product.a ... UZ&sel=DTP

I know its not a build question but I am curious if anybody has some recommendations if I should look into improving cooling or power supply. I read that under load the fan might get a bit high pitched. Also not sure about the CPU cooler but found some online videos showing how to replace it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHxMMowwKY8

Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

German Expat wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:58 pm I was following your build thread for quite a while and hoping to snag a good graphics card eventually. Now with black Friday offers coming up in Europe I gave in and ordered a HP Omen. Pricing was 2200 CHF with a Ryzen 9 5900x and a Nvidia 3080 LHR. I was a bit surprised finding a decent amount of pre configured ones from various web sites in Germany or Switzerland (Aldi has one soon as well).

https://www.hp.com/ch-en/shop/product.a ... UZ&sel=DTP

I know its not a build question but I am curious if anybody has some recommendations if I should look into improving cooling or power supply. I read that under load the fan might get a bit high pitched. Also not sure about the CPU cooler but found some online videos showing how to replace it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHxMMowwKY8

Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks
The specs say it already comes with liquid cooling for the CPU, which I assume has a 120mm radiator. There probably isn't enough room to upgrade to a 240mm AIO, but you could try changing the fans to something quieter like the Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM or Arctic P12 PWM.

And the PSU is an 800 W 80+ Gold, so that's fine and no need to upgrade.
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