PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

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Independent George
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

lazydavid wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:00 am
Independent George wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:36 am One more thing to note: once you replace the drive, you'll also have to reinstall the operating system from a bootable USB drive... which requires a working computer to create. If you don't have an extra computer to start from, you will need to do it from the iMac before you disassemble. Instructions can be found here.
It looks like the previous owner reconfigured it so the 128GB drive is the boot drive, and that won't be touched. So no OS restore necessary.
Ah, missed that. Never mind, then.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

I think I've found my next build's mobo, https://www.newegg.com/asus-proart-x570 ... 6813119496. I'm still on a B450 from when the X570's was $800.

The ProArt has all of the features I want in a X570, it's the first AMD based Dual Thunderbolt 4 Type-C board Intel has allowed.
It would be nice if they pump out a non-wireless version before I buy but I can ignore that.
  • 1.) No-RGB!
    2.) No horrible fan/rgb controllers!
    3.) No light up Asus graphic!

Something along this line though I haven't fully decided on the case/psu yet as this will be a hard tube water cool build.
I need to work on my pump/reservoir/radiator/fan design before picking the case. There's a good chance I'll look at e-bay for a good CaseLab's monster.


PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 3.8 GHz 8-Core Processor ($389.99 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: Asus ProArt X570-CREATOR WIFI ATX AM4 Motherboard
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL16 Memory ($99.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Sabrent Rocket 4.0 500 GB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($89.98 @ Amazon)
Storage: Samsung 870 Evo 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($127.10 @ MemoryC)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 12 GB XC GAMING Video Card (Purchased For $0.00)
Case: darkFlash V22 ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply: SeaSonic FOCUS GX 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply ($149.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $857.05
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-10-16 20:09 EDT-0400
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm It would be nice if they pump out a non-wireless version before I buy but I can ignore that.
I also tried looking for a non-wireless version of my Asus TUF Gaming X570 mobo, but couldn't find one. I guess wireless is here to stay. :)

I double-checked the memory. The G.Skill F4-3600C16D-16GVK is on the QVL. ProArt X570-CREATOR WIFI|Memory QVL

What will you use the Thunderbolt for?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:14 pm
brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm It would be nice if they pump out a non-wireless version before I buy but I can ignore that.
I also tried looking for a non-wireless version of my Asus TUF Gaming X570 mobo, but couldn't find one. I guess wireless is here to stay. :)

I double-checked the memory. The G.Skill F4-3600C16D-16GVK is on the QVL. ProArt X570-CREATOR WIFI|Memory QVL

What will you use the Thunderbolt for?
I have my work laptop on a thunderbolt 4 doc (2 work and 2 personal monitors vesa mounted on a 8 foot desk) and could mirror them over to my personal monitors with a button push so I wouldn't have to move 4 feet to the left during the day ;)

It also has 32Gbps transfer rates and true 8k monitor sink with a bonus 100w power charge rate.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by crinkles2 »

brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm
Video Card: EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 12 GB XC GAMING Video Card (Purchased For $0.00)
How $0?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

crinkles2 wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:10 pm
brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm
Video Card: EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 12 GB XC GAMING Video Card (Purchased For $0.00)
How $0?
I already own one so I set it to "purchased" in pcpartpicker
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL16 Memory ($99.99 @ Newegg)
...
Buyers remorse can last a l-o-n-g time. I was having second thoughts on my choice of 3200 MHz RAM (4 x 8 GB) and seeing your post was the final straw.

The QVL is slim pickings for 3600 MHz, but I found something that worked - G.Skill Trident Z DDR4-3600MHz CL16-16-16-36 1.35V 32GB (4x8GB) ($224.99 at Newegg). The RAM is white, but it's the only one available. Amazon is more expensive ($263.61 and no black available, either).

Why didn't I choose this before? The Trident Z series module height is 44 mm, which is 2 mm taller than the Ripjaws V. (Source) Will it fit under my Noctua cooler? Not with my original selection of the NH-U14S.

However, I went with the Noctua NH-U12A cooler. The video clearly says and shows that the design is intentionally offset to allow you to use any RAM module at any height. Throwing caution to the wind (and eating yet another 15% restocking fee), I went with the Trident Z RAM and will return the 3200 MHz Ripjaws V.

This will delay my build until next weekend (estimate), but I'll have the RAM I want. I'm hoping I won't run into the same problems I had last year. OTOH, it's an opportunity to find new problems.

Another area to look at is inserting my GPU card into the motherboard with that 15 mm slim case fan (Meshify-C case). Yes, I'll have 9 mm of clearance. But, can I tilt the card enough so it catches the PCIe slot correctly when it's inserted? I'll find out...

I'm using Paypal for these purchases, which has a free return shipping process. I haven't used this before, but I'll give it a try when I'm ready to return the 3200 MHz RAM. The details: Return Shipping Refund | PayPal US. You'll see the full info when logged in.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:36 am
brad.clarkston wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL16 Memory ($99.99 @ Newegg)
...
Buyers remorse can last a l-o-n-g time. I was having second thoughts on my choice of 3200 MHz RAM (4 x 8 GB) and seeing your post was the final straw.

The QVL is slim pickings for 3600 MHz, but I found something that worked - G.Skill Trident Z DDR4-3600MHz CL16-16-16-36 1.35V 32GB (4x8GB) ($224.99 at Newegg). The RAM is white, but it's the only one available. Amazon is more expensive ($263.61 and no black available, either).

Why didn't I choose this before? The Trident Z series module height is 44 mm, which is 2 mm taller than the Ripjaws V. (Source) Will it fit under my Noctua cooler? Not with my original selection of the NH-U14S.

However, I went with the Noctua NH-U12A cooler. The video clearly says and shows that the design is intentionally offset to allow you to use any RAM module at any height. Throwing caution to the wind (and eating yet another 15% restocking fee), I went with the Trident Z RAM and will return the 3200 MHz Ripjaws V.

This will delay my build until next weekend (estimate), but I'll have the RAM I want. I'm hoping I won't run into the same problems I had last year. OTOH, it's an opportunity to find new problems.

Another area to look at is inserting my GPU card into the motherboard with that 15 mm slim case fan (Meshify-C case). Yes, I'll have 9 mm of clearance. But, can I tilt the card enough so it catches the PCIe slot correctly when it's inserted? I'll find out...

I'm using Paypal for these purchases, which has a free return shipping process. I haven't used this before, but I'll give it a try when I'm ready to return the 3200 MHz RAM. The details: Return Shipping Refund | PayPal US. You'll see the full info when logged in.

Sorry about that :) The 3600mhz is primarily for gaming in my instance. I play most of the FPS in your face shooters so you really don't want to see the price tag on my monitors/keyboard/mouse!

3200mhz is perfectly fine for anything not stressing a Ryzen GPU which is mostly video/audio editing and games. The modern machine is not dependent on CPU any more it's more about GPU then memory with a dash of decent cooling thrown in. I've built high end systems on a Ryzen 5 5600x just fine as long as I up it to a RTX 3090 and match the memory tighter, a few full time streamers hasn't noticed the difference and spent less.

In your case I would probably still go with the 3600mhz mostly because you know the difference. You'd more than likely upgrade to it in a year anyway as you read more and run some test software. You can get 3rd party heat spreaders for those white ram sticks if you do not like them. I rarely run stock heat spreaders anymore. Wait until you dig into the mod'ing world!

The big FOMO/buyers remorse will come after the Intel Alder Lake CPU's land this quarter and you start to see DDR5 speeds :twisted:
I expect to be building mostly Intel systems again unless AMD can pull something off when they get into DDR5 in Q2/Q3 of next year.

I'm glade it's just a part time job now.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

brad.clarkston wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:29 pm In your case I would probably still go with the 3600mhz mostly because you know the difference. You'd more than likely upgrade to it in a year anyway as you read more and run some test software. You can get 3rd party heat spreaders for those white ram sticks if you do not like them. I rarely run stock heat spreaders anymore. Wait until you dig into the mod'ing world!
Exactly. I want the 3600 MHz because I know the difference. The white did bug me. You can get 3rd party heat spreaders? Remind in a few months and I'll fix that color problem.

Bear in mind that I have a solid metal case cover. No fancy tempered glass to see what's inside. Maybe I can change that as well. (Maybe not.)
brad.clarkston wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:29 pm The big FOMO/buyers remorse will come after the Intel Alder Lake CPU's land this quarter and you start to see DDR5 speeds :twisted:
I expect to be building mostly Intel systems again unless AMD can pull something off when they get into DDR5 in Q2/Q3 of next year.

I'm glade it's just a part time job now.
At that point, I'll be looking at AIO liquid cooling as well. I would agree with you on Intel. I hope that new product line does well and I would definitely switch back if that happened.

Part time? I'm retired and can spend all day on this. Wait, I already am.

==========================

When building your shiny new system, don't forget about the dull and mundane things. Like cables.

After spending a very long time focusing on the GPU and monitor, I just realized that I didn't have any DisplayPort monitor cables. I would have been stuck.

When working with 4K (and future 8k) resolution at high sync rates, be sure to get the right cable. Those cables run at very high bandwidth and it's important you get something that meets spec. You want "VESA Certified" and DisplayPort 1.4 support. Gamers running maxed out GPUs need to pay attention to this.

I found a 2 m cable on Amazon: Startech.com 2m VESA Certified DisplayPort 1.4 Cable - 8K 60Hz HBR3 HDR ($15.50 with free Prime shipping) Delivery is in 2 days.

Newegg also has cables, but showed longer delivery times and did not have free shipping.

Be sure to check the reviews, as a few of these vendors may not be totally honest with their specs. On Amazon, here's an example of a cable I did NOT buy: Cable Matters VESA Certified 8K DisplayPort Cable 1.4 - scroll down to the reviews and you'll see what I mean.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by brad.clarkston »

LadyGeek wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:57 pm
Be sure to check the reviews, as a few of these vendors may not be totally honest with their specs. On Amazon, here's an example of a cable I did NOT buy: Cable Matters VESA Certified 8K DisplayPort Cable 1.4 - scroll down to the reviews and you'll see what I mean.

*Sigh* Typical Amazon question/review, they asked the wrong question and got a dumb answer.

Vesa is a standards body while DisplayPort is the standard. The cable has nothing to do with the standard you can build it out of chicken wire and spit for all they care as long as it passes HBR3 (32.4 Gbit/s) and DSC compression for DP 1.4 - which I'm betting this cable can and will do. A "standard" is the lowest bar a company needs to hurdle to pass the guideline not the highest.

VESA does not certify cables, no one send cables in for testing they just need to meet the standard and pay the money hence all the Chinese knockoff's. You only do hardware certification if your going way out of your way to make a great cable and want to show off to justify the price tag. Don't get me started on audiophile power cables the wife will smack me again.


DP 2.0 cables (77.37 Gbit/s) has already hit the market and will become mainstream as the monitor/TV companies put more products out.
I'm tired of waiting for a new version of my Asus ROG Swift PG32UQX with 244hz/DP 2.0.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

OK, I was holding back on cables. I fully agree with you that all of this is over material design and construction. Nothing magical happens when you change standards. It's a matter of testing to see how bad the degradation is at higher frequencies. Better designs have less degradation.

There is no such thing as "digital". It's an analog approximation to a square wave. (The basics: Square wave) The "knock off" brands use inexpensive materials that compromise the design. The higher frequencies are attenuated more than they should and the result is that the monitor no longer sees a "digital" signal. Mistakes are made detecting the digital 1's and 0's and the picture gets mucked up as a result.

That's why the Amazon review I linked to has reports that the monitors didn't work at the higher resolutions (and higher sync rates).

Background: Yes, I do have audiophile speaker cables. My front speakers are bi-wired. Monster Cable is not audiophile...
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Brain »

I got a video card!!!

I signed up for the EVGA queue quite a while ago and my turn came up! I got the 3060 Ti XC (https://www.evga.com/products/product.a ... P5-3663-KL) for $469, plus shipping!

So, putting it all together with the rest of the components I bought a year ago (!) gives me this system:

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/bMMqTJ
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600X 3.7 GHz 6-Core Processor (Purchased For $316.94)
CPU Cooler: CRYORIG M9a 48.4 CFM CPU Cooler (Purchased For $31.99)
Motherboard: MSI B550-A PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard (Purchased For $124.99)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (4 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL16 Memory (Purchased For $149.98)
Storage: ADATA XPG SX8200 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive (Purchased For $229.99)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB XC GAMING Video Card (Purchased For $469.99)
Case: Cougar MX331 MESH-X ATX Mid Tower Case (Purchased For $40.98)
Power Supply: EVGA SuperNOVA GA 650 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (Purchased For $97.99)
Case Fan: Rosewill RFA-120-K 74.48 CFM 120 mm Fan (Purchased For $14.99)
Total: $1477.84

I originally intended to upgrade to this system for Cyberpunk 2077. I got everything but the video card in time, so I just popped my old R9 290 in and it was actually able to play the game at ultra settings at 1080p at a pretty even ~30fps. I never encountered any really noticeable lag.

After popping the 3060 Ti in, I fired up Cyberpunk 2077 again and ran around pissing off the cops to see if there was an improvement. With no RT, I was hitting 60fps evenly (my monitor's max). With RT maxed out, it went down into the 20s.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Congrats! :beer The EVGA 3060 Ti XC was the one I had originally tried for. It got a ton of good reviews and was in high demand. It would have also easily fit in my case. $469.99 is the right price.

I see you've also gone with 32 GB RAM in a (4 x 8 GB) at 3600 MHz configuration. I'll be using the Trident Z line instead of Ripjaws V.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Bob Sacamano »

can anyone recommend a pre-built PC for my 75-year old parents? they essentially just need a machine to web browse. that said, they also want something of decent quality and they're not looking to learn anything new (i.e. no Chromebook suggestions).

thanks!
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Please start a new thread so we can focus on your parents' situation. Include what you mean by "not learn anything new". Do they have a computer now? If so, what? Also, why you're not recommending a Chromebook.

Don't forget that they'll need a printer.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

Finished ordering for my Son's Build:

Case: Fractal Design Torrent RGB, $230
Motherboard: MSI MPG X570S EDGE MAX WIFI, $300
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, $395
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U12A chromax.black, 120mm Single-Tower CPU Cooler, $120
Memory: G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 32GB (2 x 16GB), $220
Drive: Sabrent 2TB Rocket 4 PLUS NVMe 4.0 Gen4, $360
Power Supply: Seasonic PRIME PX-850, 850W 80+ Platinum, $210
*Video Card: ASUS Phoenix GeForce GT 1030 OC Edition, $100

Comes to $1935 before tax/shipping, $2153 after. It cost an extra $10 to get everything (except the video card) from Newegg vs. splitting between them and Amazon, but I figure the 0.5% premium is worth it for the higher likelihood of getting genuine, brand new parts.

*This is the video card he's paying for, but not the one he's getting. It will go into my desktop, and he'll take my ASUS ROG STRIX AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT Overclocked 8G GDDR6 that I paid $460 for last year, but would cost him $1200 to buy new right now. That will let him wait for the market to settle out, and hopefully get a GTX 4080 or 7800 XT at or near MSRP ~18 months from now.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

Bob Sacamano wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:35 pm can anyone recommend a pre-built PC for my 75-year old parents? they essentially just need a machine to web browse. that said, they also want something of decent quality and they're not looking to learn anything new (i.e. no Chromebook suggestions).

thanks!
LadyGeek wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 7:44 pm Please start a new thread so we can focus on your parents' situation. Include what you mean by "not learn anything new". Do they have a computer now? If so, what? Also, why you're not recommending a Chromebook.

Don't forget that they'll need a printer.
There have been many replies in the topic Looking for a desktop PC for my 75 year old parents that has been running since October 11th.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:49 pm Comes to $1935 before tax/shipping, $2153 after. It cost an extra $10 to get everything (except the video card) from Newegg vs. splitting between them and Amazon, but I figure the 0.5% premium is worth it for the higher likelihood of getting genuine, brand new parts.
Caution, you're missing one aspect here - gray market. Newegg does the same thing as Amazon, but it's more transparent. Before those parts ship, check where the parts are shipped from. The description will explicitly say "Shipped by Newegg" or "Ships from the US".

If it's anything other than the US, consider using Amazon or another reseller (which Newegg will show). In addition to a risk of no US warranty, you may have to ship defective parts back to the supplier, which is outside the US. I've been burned on this before.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:14 am
lazydavid wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:49 pm Comes to $1935 before tax/shipping, $2153 after. It cost an extra $10 to get everything (except the video card) from Newegg vs. splitting between them and Amazon, but I figure the 0.5% premium is worth it for the higher likelihood of getting genuine, brand new parts.
Caution, you're missing one aspect here - gray market. Newegg does the same thing as Amazon, but it's more transparent. Before those parts ship, check where the parts are shipped from. The description will explicitly say "Shipped by Newegg" or "Ships from the US".

If it's anything other than the US, consider using Amazon or another reseller (which Newegg will show). In addition to a risk of no US warranty, you may have to ship defective parts back to the supplier, which is outside the US. I've been burned on this before.
It's all sold and shipped by Newegg, except the SSD which is coming direct from Sabrent, and the cooler which is sold by Noctua but shipped by Newegg. Not my first rodeo. :)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Good to hear.

I wish I had taken a picture of that G.skill Ripjaws 3200 MHz (4 x 8 GB) memory before I returned it. Something did not seem right. I received 2 retail packages each containing 2 sticks.

The RAM stickers were marked as (4 x 8GB), but there's no way they should be packaged as independent sets of 2. I'm wondering if they were repacked or counterfeit. Has anyone received a set of 4 RAM sticks like this?

My Trident Z RAM arrived today. All in one box with a properly marked box and packaged as expected. I don't see a reason to modify the heat spreaders, as they're made of dark gray (or black) brushed aluminum. Only the top part of the RAM is white. They look like this: Trident Z DDR4-3600MHz CL16-16-16-36 1.35V 32GB (4x8GB)

I now have all my parts and just need to dedicate some time to do the build. It might be a few days.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by harland »

LadyGeek wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:38 pm The RAM stickers were marked as (4 x 8GB), but there's no way they should be packaged as independent sets of 2. I'm wondering if they were repacked or counterfeit. Has anyone received a set of 4 RAM sticks like this?
Judging by the images on Newegg, looks like they'll come in two separate packages. Not sure why. Maybe it's a cost saving move.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks. I did see that, but still don't trust it. Those retail 2-packs are larger and use more material (and paper) than the small packs that fit inside a 4-pack box.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

I have been building my own PCs since 1992 - nearly 30 years. I currently have 4 in the house, including my main desktop, NAS, and 2 HTPCs

My main workhorse has a 7-year old CPU, and a 6-year old GPU. I have been eyeing the Ryzen 5900/5950 as an upgrade CPU, with X570 motherboard.

What's been holding me from upgrading anything is the very vexing problem of getting any decent GPU upgrade at a reasonable price. I want to upgrade both the CPU and the GPU. I don't play games. But I do photo editing in Lightroom Classic, and video editing in PowerDirector. One of the things I have run into is that my current GTX 960 with 4GB doesn't have hardware support for 8K decoding/encoding, which my smartphone shoots, and that's a problem for video editing. I don't have an 8K display and don't plan to for the near future.

I do have 3 monitors attached to the GTX 960, though. Two are LG 32in 4K 10 bit using DisplayPort. One is Asus 23in HD 8 bit using HDMI . I have had an insanely hard time finding a reasonably priced modern GPU replacement for the GTX 960 that can drive all 3 monitors.
I think a GTX 1660, GTX 1660 Ti or GTX 1660 Super, preferably with 6GB, and with the right port configuration, would be the logical upgrade.

My search on Newegg comes in as follows :
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709 ... 31&Order=1

The cheapest card is a Zotac GTX 1660 for $525. This seems insane for something that's not a high-end gaming card. Similar models, but with the faster Ti or Super chips, were < $250 before the pandemic started. And unfortunately, I didn't buy one then - I figured I would wait for the CPU upgrade to do it.

Is there a way to get those GTX 1660 series for a more reasonable price ? By reasonable, I would say, about $350 would be my limit for this series of cards. Or should I be looking at the more recent RTX series ? I was assuming those would cost even more.

Is there a trick to getting a decent GPU price ? Waiting list ? Anything ?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

The only way I got my card at a decent price was with the Newegg shuffle. It was a more expensive card, but at the right price for the card.

The way to find those cards is look for one that's at a decent price which will be out of stock. The "Out of Stock" banner above the price will change to "Newegg Shuffle Only".

Here's an example: GIGABYTE AORUS GeForce RTX 3060 Ti

All of the GTX 1660 series cards are running about 2x MSRP. I have a feeling that's the "new normal". They're all showing in stock, which means they're not in the shuffle.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything offered in the GTX 1660 series. The only thing I see listed in the shuffle start at the RTX 3060 series and higher.

If you want to change your price point, either buy one at the new inflated price or sign-up for the Newegg shuffle and hope for a better card at a more reasonable price (for that card). In either case, it's above the price you're willing to pay now.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Peculiar_Investor »

For those with AMD Ryzen processors, you need to be aware to get the latest and greatest chipset drivers that address some performance issues per AMD and Microsoft release patches to address AMD performance issue on Windows 11 PCs - gHacks Tech News.
The update is also available for Windows 10, and AMD lists supported processors and chipsets on this support page.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:42 am The only way I got my card at a decent price was with the Newegg shuffle. It was a more expensive card, but at the right price for the card.

The way to find those cards is look for one that's at a decent price which will be out of stock. The "Out of Stock" banner above the price will change to "Newegg Shuffle Only".

Here's an example: GIGABYTE AORUS GeForce RTX 3060 Ti
There's a much easier way....you can just go see everything that's in the shuffle (almost) every day when it's open, and sign up for every one you're interested in:

https://www.newegg.com/product-shuffle

Next one starts in about 2.5 hours from the time of this post, and there are 24 options to sign up for, roughly 3/4 of which are bundles with a motherboard, power supply, or monitor. They have a shuffle almost every weekday, rarely on the weekends.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by bugleheadd »

if i went all out , i would pick
ryzen 5950x
nvidia gtx 3090 - i like EVGA brand
64gb pc3200 ram - Crucial
2 tb gen4 NVME - Inland
x570 wifi mobo - Asrock
1000w platinum PSU - Seasonic
for case - i like the looks of the Lian Li O11 Dynamic Mini-Snow. i would try to get all the other PC components i n white to match
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:39 am ...Next one starts in about 2.5 hours from the time of this post, and there are 24 options to sign up for, roughly 3/4 of which are bundles with a motherboard, power supply, or monitor. They have a shuffle almost every weekday, rarely on the weekends.
Good point, but signing up for the shuffle gives daily email reminders. With the long wait, I would occasionally forget about it until the email showed up. The email is sent 2 hours before the shuffle starts, so you still have to be online during the open window time. The shuffle is Monday - Friday only.
Peculiar_Investor wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:49 am For those with AMD Ryzen processors, you need to be aware to get the latest and greatest chipset drivers that address some performance issues per AMD and Microsoft release patches to address AMD performance issue on Windows 11 PCs - gHacks Tech News.
The update is also available for Windows 10, and AMD lists supported processors and chipsets on this support page.
The article mentions that the patch will be issued as an optional update on the next MS Windows Patch Day, November 9, 2021. It wasn't clear if that was for both Windows 10 and Windows 11.

The AMD release notes show Win 10 impacts, so perhaps it will be included. AMD Ryzen™ Chipset Driver Release Notes (3.10.08.506)

For CPU impacts, my new Ryzen 7 5800X is impacted, but my current Ryzen 7 3800X is not. The Series 3000 processors with Radeon™ Graphics are separate from the Series 3000 processors (no integrated graphics).

The motherboard X570 chipsets (new and current builds) are impacted.

Update: Upon further review, this only impacts Windows 11. See: AMD says Windows 11 is slowing down its processors by up to 15%, October 7, 2021
AMD suggests that customers use Windows 10 whenever possible instead as the operating system is not affected by the issue.
I used the opportunity to download the latest drivers for my new motherboard.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by tortoise84 »

madbrain wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:52 pm I have been building my own PCs since 1992 - nearly 30 years. I currently have 4 in the house, including my main desktop, NAS, and 2 HTPCs

My main workhorse has a 7-year old CPU, and a 6-year old GPU. I have been eyeing the Ryzen 5900/5950 as an upgrade CPU, with X570 motherboard.

What's been holding me from upgrading anything is the very vexing problem of getting any decent GPU upgrade at a reasonable price. I want to upgrade both the CPU and the GPU. I don't play games. But I do photo editing in Lightroom Classic, and video editing in PowerDirector. One of the things I have run into is that my current GTX 960 with 4GB doesn't have hardware support for 8K decoding/encoding, which my smartphone shoots, and that's a problem for video editing. I don't have an 8K display and don't plan to for the near future.

I do have 3 monitors attached to the GTX 960, though. Two are LG 32in 4K 10 bit using DisplayPort. One is Asus 23in HD 8 bit using HDMI . I have had an insanely hard time finding a reasonably priced modern GPU replacement for the GTX 960 that can drive all 3 monitors.
I think a GTX 1660, GTX 1660 Ti or GTX 1660 Super, preferably with 6GB, and with the right port configuration, would be the logical upgrade.

My search on Newegg comes in as follows :
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709 ... 31&Order=1

The cheapest card is a Zotac GTX 1660 for $525. This seems insane for something that's not a high-end gaming card. Similar models, but with the faster Ti or Super chips, were < $250 before the pandemic started. And unfortunately, I didn't buy one then - I figured I would wait for the CPU upgrade to do it.

Is there a way to get those GTX 1660 series for a more reasonable price ? By reasonable, I would say, about $350 would be my limit for this series of cards. Or should I be looking at the more recent RTX series ? I was assuming those would cost even more.

Is there a trick to getting a decent GPU price ? Waiting list ? Anything ?
Right now, pretty much only the Radeon RX 6600 XT is available at a luke warm price. The performance is between a 3060 and 3060 Ti, or about the same as the previous gen 5700 XT. At Newegg they are only available bundled with a motherboard:

Full list: https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=radeon+rx ... 00&Order=1

With an Intel B560 mobo for $615: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDea ... bo.4375776

With an AMD B550 mobo for $670: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDea ... bo.4363084
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by harland »

madbrain wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:52 pm Is there a trick to getting a decent GPU price ? Waiting list ? Anything ?
You'll probably have to go the prebuilt route if you want a GPU at a somewhat reasonable price. Might as well get a computer along with the video card! :D
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:42 am The only way I got my card at a decent price was with the Newegg shuffle. It was a more expensive card, but at the right price for the card.

The way to find those cards is look for one that's at a decent price which will be out of stock. The "Out of Stock" banner above the price will change to "Newegg Shuffle Only".

Here's an example: GIGABYTE AORUS GeForce RTX 3060 Ti

All of the GTX 1660 series cards are running about 2x MSRP. I have a feeling that's the "new normal". They're all showing in stock, which means they're not in the shuffle.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything offered in the GTX 1660 series. The only thing I see listed in the shuffle start at the RTX 3060 series and higher.

If you want to change your price point, either buy one at the new inflated price or sign-up for the Newegg shuffle and hope for a better card at a more reasonable price (for that card). In either case, it's above the price you're willing to pay now.
Actually, my local retailer, Central Computers, sells an EVGA GTX 1660 at $359 - apparently just went out of stock today. But EVGA doesn't make any 1660 series with the configuration ports that I need - they all only have a single DisplayPort, and I need two, so EVGA is out. They have two Zotac models for $499 and $529 that would work, except for the price :-(

I'll look at the Newegg shuffle.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

harland wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:30 am
madbrain wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:52 pm Is there a trick to getting a decent GPU price ? Waiting list ? Anything ?
You'll probably have to go the prebuilt route if you want a GPU at a somewhat reasonable price. Might as well get a computer along with the video card! :D
If I bought a pre-built PC, I probably would only take the GPU from it. Then I would be left with something I wouldn't know what to do with, and probably very hard to sell.

I have zero interest in using a pre-built computer, and haven't since 1992. I only want the specific components of my choice. It's safe to say that no pre-built PC is ever going to fit my needs.

The PC I want to upgrade has a very nice Cooler Master HAF 932 advanced case, no longer sold, which has 6 x 5.25 front exposed drive bays, all in use, 5 internal hot swap 3.5 drive bays (4 of them in use, each with dual 2.5 in SSD), five 230mm case fans, one 140mm case fan, a 1200W Corsair power supply, 8 SATA SSDs, 1 NVMe SSD, 4 SATA optical drives, and front mounted multi-card reader multi-card reader including SD UHS-II and a USB 3.0 port, and a 2-drive SATA hotswap bay, front-mounted, for both 3.5 and 2.5 drives.

All 5 PCIe expansion slots on the motherboard are in use, also - one is the GTX 960 GPU running at PCIe 3.0 x8, another is an LSI SAS2 card running at x8, Aquantia 10 Gbps NIC running at x4, TI Firewire card running at x1 for my audio gear, Hauppauge HVR-1265 capture card running at x1.

8 out of 8 of the SATA connectors from the 2 SAS2 ports are full. 6 out of 10 of the SATA ports on the motherboards are in use.

The new motherboard I have in my sights is an Asus Prime Prime X570 Pro with 6 PCIe slots, to replace the current MSI X99A Raider that has 5 slots.
As far as I can tell, the Prime X570 Pro is the only AMD AM4 motherboard with 6 PCIe slots. The SATA ports go down from 10 on my current motherboard to 6, which would work, but I have space left in the case for 2 more SATA SSDs and would prefer 8. There are some X570 motherboards with 8 SATA ports. But none that I can see also with 6 PCIe slots. Unfortunately, the Newegg tool doesn't allow searching for 6 PCIe slots. I can search for 3 PCIe x16 slots, but not for 3 PCIe x1. It looks like all the X570 boards with 8 SATA ports lose the 6th PCIe slot, and add unwanted features like Wifi.
Last edited by madbrain on Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

tortoise84 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:15 am
madbrain wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:52 pm I have been building my own PCs since 1992 - nearly 30 years. I currently have 4 in the house, including my main desktop, NAS, and 2 HTPCs

My main workhorse has a 7-year old CPU, and a 6-year old GPU. I have been eyeing the Ryzen 5900/5950 as an upgrade CPU, with X570 motherboard.

What's been holding me from upgrading anything is the very vexing problem of getting any decent GPU upgrade at a reasonable price. I want to upgrade both the CPU and the GPU. I don't play games. But I do photo editing in Lightroom Classic, and video editing in PowerDirector. One of the things I have run into is that my current GTX 960 with 4GB doesn't have hardware support for 8K decoding/encoding, which my smartphone shoots, and that's a problem for video editing. I don't have an 8K display and don't plan to for the near future.

I do have 3 monitors attached to the GTX 960, though. Two are LG 32in 4K 10 bit using DisplayPort. One is Asus 23in HD 8 bit using HDMI . I have had an insanely hard time finding a reasonably priced modern GPU replacement for the GTX 960 that can drive all 3 monitors.
I think a GTX 1660, GTX 1660 Ti or GTX 1660 Super, preferably with 6GB, and with the right port configuration, would be the logical upgrade.

My search on Newegg comes in as follows :
https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?N=100007709 ... 31&Order=1

The cheapest card is a Zotac GTX 1660 for $525. This seems insane for something that's not a high-end gaming card. Similar models, but with the faster Ti or Super chips, were < $250 before the pandemic started. And unfortunately, I didn't buy one then - I figured I would wait for the CPU upgrade to do it.

Is there a way to get those GTX 1660 series for a more reasonable price ? By reasonable, I would say, about $350 would be my limit for this series of cards. Or should I be looking at the more recent RTX series ? I was assuming those would cost even more.

Is there a trick to getting a decent GPU price ? Waiting list ? Anything ?
Right now, pretty much only the Radeon RX 6600 XT is available at a luke warm price. The performance is between a 3060 and 3060 Ti, or about the same as the previous gen 5700 XT. At Newegg they are only available bundled with a motherboard:

Full list: https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=radeon+rx ... 00&Order=1

With an Intel B560 mobo for $615: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDea ... bo.4375776

With an AMD B550 mobo for $670: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDea ... bo.4363084
Thanks. I'm not interested in any AMD GPU due to issues with the software. For example, JRiver / MadVR can only autoswitch to HDR mode on nVidia cards, for some reason. There have been other issues I have seen and read about on AMD GPUs in the past. Generally, the nVidia drivers are just better, and I'm just not willing to put up with AMD GPU drivers.
At the moment, I'm only looking at X570 motherboards, not B560/B550.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:39 am There's a much easier way....you can just go see everything that's in the shuffle (almost) every day when it's open, and sign up for every one you're interested in:

https://www.newegg.com/product-shuffle

Next one starts in about 2.5 hours from the time of this post, and there are 24 options to sign up for, roughly 3/4 of which are bundles with a motherboard, power supply, or monitor. They have a shuffle almost every weekday, rarely on the weekends.
Thanks. Unfortunately, being a night owl on the west coast, the Newegg shuffle hours are smack in the middle of my sleep hours, so that's not going to work. Also, I have no need for any PSU or monitor. I do need a motherboard, but only looking at a few select models of X570. The whole point of building your own PC is to choose your parts - at least, to me, it has always been. A pre-selected bundle deal negates that, unfortunately.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

madbrain wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:18 pm The PC I want to upgrade has a very nice Cooler Master HAF 932 advanced case, no longer sold, which has 6 x 5.25 front exposed drive bays, all in use, 5 internal hot swap 3.5 drive bays (4 of them in use, each with dual 2.5 in SSD), five 230mm case fans, one 140mm case fan, a 1200W Corsair power supply, 8 SATA SSDs, 1 NVMe SSD, 4 SATA optical drives, and front mounted multi-card reader multi-card reader including SD UHS-II and a USB 3.0 port, and a 2-drive SATA hotswap bay, front-mounted, for both 3.5 and 2.5 drives.

All 5 PCIe expansion slots on the motherboard are in use, also - one is the GTX 960 GPU running at PCIe 3.0 x8, another is an LSI SAS2 card running at x8, Aquantia 10 Gbps NIC running at x4, TI Firewire card running at x1 for my audio gear, Hauppauge HVR-1265 capture card running at x1.

8 out of 8 of the SATA connectors from the 2 SAS2 ports are full. 6 out of 10 of the SATA ports on the motherboards are in use.
This is a pretty serious desktop. Out of curiosity, have you ever considered splitting this functionality into a separate desktop and server that could be upgraded independently?
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:47 pm
madbrain wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:18 pm The PC I want to upgrade has a very nice Cooler Master HAF 932 advanced case, no longer sold, which has 6 x 5.25 front exposed drive bays, all in use, 5 internal hot swap 3.5 drive bays (4 of them in use, each with dual 2.5 in SSD), five 230mm case fans, one 140mm case fan, a 1200W Corsair power supply, 8 SATA SSDs, 1 NVMe SSD, 4 SATA optical drives, and front mounted multi-card reader multi-card reader including SD UHS-II and a USB 3.0 port, and a 2-drive SATA hotswap bay, front-mounted, for both 3.5 and 2.5 drives.

All 5 PCIe expansion slots on the motherboard are in use, also - one is the GTX 960 GPU running at PCIe 3.0 x8, another is an LSI SAS2 card running at x8, Aquantia 10 Gbps NIC running at x4, TI Firewire card running at x1 for my audio gear, Hauppauge HVR-1265 capture card running at x1.

8 out of 8 of the SATA connectors from the 2 SAS2 ports are full. 6 out of 10 of the SATA ports on the motherboards are in use.
This is a pretty serious desktop. Out of curiosity, have you ever considered splitting this functionality into a separate desktop and server that could be upgraded independently?
Yes. Actually, I have a NAS in the same room, running Ubuntu with ZFS in raidz2 and 8 x 14TB hard drives. It's mainly used as a file server for backups. It's not solid state except for the boot drive. I run various daemons on it besides file serving. Plex for one. I don't run Windows on it. My desktop apps, in particular the video editing stuff, runs on Windows and need a local GPU.

In truth, I'm not hugely limited by my current Windows desktop. The 7 year old i7 5820k GPU still performs decently. It's got a Noctua NH-D14 cooler and is overclocked to 4.3 GHz. It has 4x8 GB of DDR4-2666 RAM. Where the CPU really chokes is with 8K decoding/encoding. And since the GTX 960 GPU doesn't support 8K in hardware, that's a problem. If I stick with 4K video, all is good. I just have a bit of the upgrade bug since it's been a while I upgraded the core of the system. I don't know what it will take for GPU prices to come back to earth. Bitcoin crash ? One can only hope.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by harland »

madbrain wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:59 pm I don't know what it will take for GPU prices to come back to earth. Bitcoin crash ? One can only hope.
I think the supply chain issues are here through 2022. Intel's CEO thinks 2023 is when things will return to 'normal'. Given that, maybe you'll be able to buy a used RTX 30 series at MSRP when the RTX 40 series launches Q4 2022.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

madbrain wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:18 pm
The new motherboard I have in my sights is an Asus Prime Prime X570 Pro with 6 PCIe slots, to replace the current MSI X99A Raider that has 5 slots.
As far as I can tell, the Prime X570 Pro is the only AMD AM4 motherboard with 6 PCIe slots. The SATA ports go down from 10 on my current motherboard to 6, which would work, but I have space left in the case for 2 more SATA SSDs and would prefer 8. There are some X570 motherboards with 8 SATA ports. But none that I can see also with 6 PCIe slots. Unfortunately, the Newegg tool doesn't allow searching for 6 PCIe slots. I can search for 3 PCIe x16 slots, but not for 3 PCIe x1. It looks like all the X570 boards with 8 SATA ports lose the 6th PCIe slot, and add unwanted features like Wifi.
Be sure to check the motherboard manual to make sure that you're not losing any PCIE lanes when using all of the SATA ports, or vice versa.

Almost all of the high end boards will have wifi on them - I'd just think of it as a bonus even if you never use it. The good thing is that wifi usually also means bluetooth 5 is included, too.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks! This is my first desktop build with wi-fi and I forgot about Bluetooth. My Asus TUF Gaming X570-plus does indeed have both wi-fi and Bluetooth 5.0.

Bluetooth is in the same frequency range as wi-fi and shares the same antennas with wi-fi. My motherboard has 2 antennas. I can deep-dive into the theory (spatial diversity), but the idea is that 2 antennas have better coverage than one (less multipath). Now, I'll need to adjust 2 antennas for best coverage instead of just 1.

The motherboard user's manual suggests the wi-fi / Bluetooth module is running off the M.2 interface. The layout says "M.2 (wi-fi)".
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by lazydavid »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:33 pm The motherboard user's manual suggests the wi-fi / Bluetooth module is running off the M.2 interface. The layout says "M.2 (wi-fi)".
This seems strange at first (and did to me also), but thinking about it for a moment, it's actually pretty logical. Nearly all Wifi/bluetooth modules these days are M.2, to the point that even many add-in PCI-E Wifi cards just have an M.2 socket populated with a 2230 wifi card like you might find in a laptop. Asus probably just took one of those chipsets and dropped it directly on the board.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:53 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:33 pm The motherboard user's manual suggests the wi-fi / Bluetooth module is running off the M.2 interface. The layout says "M.2 (wi-fi)".
This seems strange at first (and did to me also), but thinking about it for a moment, it's actually pretty logical. Nearly all Wifi/bluetooth modules these days are M.2, to the point that even many add-in PCI-E Wifi cards just have an M.2 socket populated with a 2230 wifi card like you might find in a laptop. Asus probably just took one of those chipsets and dropped it directly on the board.
If you think that's weird, what do you make of the following ?

https://www.centralcomputer.com/m-2-to- ... ipset.html

Also, most desktop motherboards still come with at least one serial port connector.

I wonder why one would waste an M.2 slot on this when they could just use USB. Even USB 1.1 would be fast enough for 2 serial ports at the top 921,600 speed (and what serial device really uses these ?). Also, the stupid price.

Brings me back to the old days of running my BBS and ISA cards with 16554 FIFOs.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Independent George wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:10 pm Be sure to check the motherboard manual to make sure that you're not losing any PCIE lanes when using all of the SATA ports, or vice versa.
Thanks. I just checked the manual for the Prime X570 Pro, didn't see anything to that effect for the 6 SATA ports. Specs say they come from the X570 chipset.

There does seem to be lane sharing for M.2 and the PCIEX16_2 slot. I'm not entirely clear on the wording in the manual. The PDF won't allow copying and pasting. Even printing it to another PDF didn't work.

The setting is called PCIEX16_2 _Bandwidth . The two options are [X8 Mode] (straightforward) or [PCIe RAID mode] "The hyper M.2 x16 card and other add-on M2 devices all run at x4 mode, which allows you to create a PCIe RAID array".
The second setting doesn't really make much sense to me. I guess this runs the PCIEx2 slot at x4 instead of x8 ?

Currently, on my X99 motherboard, I use the 3 PCIEx16 slots in my X99 motherboard 8/8/4. And both PCIEx1 slots as x1. And also have one NVMe M2 on the motherboard running at X4. I think I can do the same on the Prime X570 Pro. And I would have a have 3rd PCIE x1 slot free.
Almost all of the high end boards will have wifi on them - I'd just think of it as a bonus even if you never use it. The good thing is that wifi usually also means bluetooth 5 is included, too.
I really have no use for Wifi on this very powerful and heavy desktop - there is no way in hell I would ever use Wifi with it when I have a 10 Gbps LAN. Wifi on it is just wasted silicon, at best. At worst, it might consume some PCIe lanes that could otherwise be available for other things (like SATA ports, or the 6th PCIe slot).

Bluetooth is slightly useful. I do indeed occasionally use it. I have a $12.95 USB dongle for that. Currently a 4.0 dongle version, bought in 2018. The only Bluetooth device I ever use with my desktop is a pair of Sony WH-1000MX3 headphones. They are Bluetooth 4.2 . But they seem to work just fine with the 4.0 dongle. Other bluetooth devices that I use are my car and my hot tub sound system, neither of which are within range of the desktop.

I'm not at all fond of the so-called higher-end motherboards that try to bundle everything but the kitchensink. For example, Asus has integrated 2.5 Gbps, 5 Gbps or 10 Gbps Aquantia networking on some of its higher-end motherboards. But it turns out Asus has disabled the traces for WOL on all their Aquantia chips, including the standalone PCIe NIC they sell (or used to sell) ! That makes for much less power efficient machines. Also, I have already purchased five Aquantia 10 Gbps NICs (well, technically, two were given to me by Aquantia after I helped them fix a firmware bug), and have no desire to pay for them again. And some day, I'll probably go to 40 or 100 Gbps networking, also. PCIe 3.0 x4 bandwidth is 32 Gbps, not quite enough to jump to 40 Gbps. But PCIe 4.0 x4 is good for 64 Gbps, so that should work.

Anyway, I prefer the motherboard to have the fewest possible integrated features, but the maximum number of slots, be they PCIe, USB, DIMM slots, SATA or M2 ports. And install my components of choice, not those the board manufacturer chose. Again, it's the reason I build my own PCs and don't buy a pre-built machine with soldered RAM, integrated GPU, no front drive bays, etc.

Going from My MSI X99a Raider to Asus Prime X570 Pro would gain me one PCIe x1 slot. But it would cost me 4 SATA ports and 4 DIMM slots. Technically, I could still fit all my current devices, though.

It doesn't look like any X570 motherboard has either 10 SATA ports or 8 DIMM slots, let alone both. I guess the Prime X570 Pro still works technically, since I am using 6 SATA ports today, and 4 SIMM slots. It just would have no room left for any expansion.
I suppose this is because X99 was the "HEDT" offering from Intel, and X570 is the consumer offering. In the AMD world, I would have to get a Threadripper sTRX4 motherboard to get those features. I would have to use the Threadripper Zen2 CPUs though, since Threadripper Zen3 haven't been released.
The only sTRX4 motherboard I could locate with 10 SATA and 8 DIMM slots is this one
https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-trx40-a ... klink=true
But alas, it only has 4 PCIe slots, and I already have 5 PCIe cards, so it actually wouldn't work. Also, it's a $900 motherboard.

I guess I'll still have to compromise and go with the Prime X570 Pro, and lose 4 of the 8 DIMM slots. No way around that with Ryzen CPU. The 6th PCIe x1 slot on the Prime X570 Pro can be used to add back lost SATA ports, if needed, for example, when I eventually add 1-4 more Samsung 860 1TB to the current 8, to go from 8TB to 9-12TB of SSD, and increase the overall throughput even further.

I guess this card would work. PCIe 3.0 x1 provides 1GByte/s or 8 Gbps of bandwidth. Much less than 4x6 = 24 Gbps of SATA-3, so no good for SSDs. But it would be enough bandwidth if moving the 4 optical SATA drives to this card, and none of the SSDs.
https://www.newegg.com/p/17Z-00PS-00001 ... klink=true

There is also an additional USB 3.1 Gen2 socket on the Prime X570 motherboard, that I might be able to use to add internal SATA ports too, if needed. But I probably would want to use it for front panel USB 3.2 Gen2 ports/hub instead, something like this.
https://www.amazon.com/EZDIY-FAB-Intern ... +front+hub

Although it doesn't look like this supports SD card UHS-II speeds, unlike my 4-year old one, so it's still 2 step forwards and one step back :
https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Int ... ont+reader

This still leaves the sorry problem of the GPU upgrade unresolved, sadly.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

madbrain wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:05 pm
lazydavid wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:53 pm
LadyGeek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:33 pm The motherboard user's manual suggests the wi-fi / Bluetooth module is running off the M.2 interface. The layout says "M.2 (wi-fi)".
This seems strange at first (and did to me also), but thinking about it for a moment, it's actually pretty logical. Nearly all Wifi/bluetooth modules these days are M.2, to the point that even many add-in PCI-E Wifi cards just have an M.2 socket populated with a 2230 wifi card like you might find in a laptop. Asus probably just took one of those chipsets and dropped it directly on the board.
If you think that's weird, what do you make of the following ?

https://www.centralcomputer.com/m-2-to- ... ipset.html

Also, most desktop motherboards still come with at least one serial port connector.

I wonder why one would waste an M.2 slot on this when they could just use USB. Even USB 1.1 would be fast enough for 2 serial ports at the top 921,600 speed (and what serial device really uses these ?). Also, the stupid price.

Brings me back to the old days of running my BBS and ISA cards with 16554 FIFOs.
Because M.2 is a more flexible standard. It might be easier and cheaper to use M.2 instead of USB. Here's an overview: M.2 vs. USB.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:40 am Because M.2 is a more flexible standard. It might be easier and cheaper to use M.2 instead of USB. Here's an overview: M.2 vs. USB.
Thanks for that. USB really has some of the worst connector types ever designed - I'm looking at you, Micro B superspeed.
Not having to use that was reason enough to shuck all the WD hard drives I own out of their enclosures.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Independent George wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:10 pm Be sure to check the motherboard manual to make sure that you're not losing any PCIE lanes when using all of the SATA ports, or vice versa.
So, it turns out that on my current X99 motherboard, 2 of the 10 SATA ports are disabled when M2 is in use, so I really only have 8 usable SATA ports, not 10. That's documented in the manual for the MSI X99A Raider. Still 2 more SATA than on the Prime X570 Pro.

What's much more concerning is that my LSI SAS2 x8 card, in an x16 slot, is now running at just x1 according to HWINFO. The peak throughput on the striped 8 x 1TB Samsung 860 that are attached to the LSI card has dropped to "just" 900MB/s, barely 1.5x SATA-3 bandwidth. It used to be about 4GB/s. I don't know when this regression happened, sigh.

Sadly, the motherboard BIOS has no settings for PCIe slot bandwidth at all.

Maybe adding the NVMe in the M2 slot a year ago also stole lanes from one of the PCIe x16 slots. But that part is not documented in the motherboard manual. There is no way to disable the M2 slot in the BIOS. I fear physically removing the NVMe from the M2 slot is the only sure way to test that theory, but my failing vision won't allow me to do that myself anymore. Those M2 screws are just too tiny. Also, the NVMe SSD is the current boot drive, and it would be a PITA to test - involving a full OS install to a small SSD I have laying around. Or maybe cloning, but I don't think I have a big enough SATA SSD for that.

Perhaps swapping PCIe slots between the Aquantia x4 and LSI x8 cards would partially solve the problem. Aquantia card running at PCIe 3.0 x1 would not quite hit 10 Gbps anymore, though. LSI card running at PCIe 3.0 x4 would not quite hit 4GB/s either, but it should be close, at least in theory. It's certainly an easier test to switch PCIe slots than to remove the NVMe drive.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by LadyGeek »

madbrain wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:09 am
LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:40 am Because M.2 is a more flexible standard. It might be easier and cheaper to use M.2 instead of USB. Here's an overview: M.2 vs. USB.
Thanks for that. USB really has some of the worst connector types ever designed - I'm looking at you, Micro B superspeed.
Not having to use that was reason enough to shuck all the WD hard drives I own out of their enclosures.
If you have old hard drives targeted for disposable (recycling), you can have some fun by taking them apart. A Torx T8 screwdriver will get you started.

The platters might be useful as a place setting for your coffee mug, for example.

What you're after are the magnets which control the servo arms. Figure out how to extract them, then use them as refrigerator magnets.

:!: Caution: Those magnets are incredibly strong and you can muck up your fingers if you mishandle them. Keep them away from the kids.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Chip »

madbrain wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:18 pm The PC I want to upgrade has a very nice Cooler Master HAF 932 advanced case, no longer sold, which has 6 x 5.25 front exposed drive bays, all in use, 5 internal hot swap 3.5 drive bays (4 of them in use, each with dual 2.5 in SSD), five 230mm case fans, one 140mm case fan, a 1200W Corsair power supply, 8 SATA SSDs, 1 NVMe SSD, 4 SATA optical drives, and front mounted multi-card reader multi-card reader including SD UHS-II and a USB 3.0 port, and a 2-drive SATA hotswap bay, front-mounted, for both 3.5 and 2.5 drives.

All 5 PCIe expansion slots on the motherboard are in use, also - one is the GTX 960 GPU running at PCIe 3.0 x8, another is an LSI SAS2 card running at x8, Aquantia 10 Gbps NIC running at x4, TI Firewire card running at x1 for my audio gear, Hauppauge HVR-1265 capture card running at x1.

8 out of 8 of the SATA connectors from the 2 SAS2 ports are full. 6 out of 10 of the SATA ports on the motherboards are in use.
Is this a picture of you working with your computer? :D

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UIQH1uAuSpE/ ... G_0500.JPG
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

LadyGeek wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:39 am If you have old hard drives targeted for disposable (recycling), you can have some fun by taking them apart. A Torx T8 screwdriver will get you started.

The platters might be useful as a place setting for your coffee mug, for example.

What you're after are the magnets which control the servo arms. Figure out how to extract them, then use them as refrigerator magnets.

:!: Caution: Those magnets are incredibly strong and you can muck up your fingers if you mishandle them. Keep them away from the kids.
Thanks. No old hard drives left in the house at the moment. Just 14 WD spare enclosures with their darn micro-B superspeed connector and cables.
No kids, either - just cats. Don't think the magnets would stick to my stainless steel refrigerator. Platters might be more useful.
Last edited by madbrain on Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by madbrain »

Chip wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:48 am Is this a picture of you working with your computer? :D

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-UIQH1uAuSpE/ ... G_0500.JPG
It could be:)
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Re: PC Build Thread - 2020... and beyond!!!

Post by Independent George »

madbrain wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:37 am So, it turns out that on my current X99 motherboard, 2 of the 10 SATA ports are disabled when M2 is in use, so I really only have 8 usable SATA ports, not 10. That's documented in the manual for the MSI X99A Raider. Still 2 more SATA than on the Prime X570 Pro.

What's much more concerning is that my LSI SAS2 x8 card, in an x16 slot, is now running at just x1 according to HWINFO. The peak throughput on the striped 8 x 1TB Samsung 860 that are attached to the LSI card has dropped to "just" 900MB/s, barely 1.5x SATA-3 bandwidth. It used to be about 4GB/s. I don't know when this regression happened, sigh.

Sadly, the motherboard BIOS has no settings for PCIe slot bandwidth at all.

Maybe adding the NVMe in the M2 slot a year ago also stole lanes from one of the PCIe x16 slots. But that part is not documented in the motherboard manual. There is no way to disable the M2 slot in the BIOS. I fear physically removing the NVMe from the M2 slot is the only sure way to test that theory, but my failing vision won't allow me to do that myself anymore. Those M2 screws are just too tiny. Also, the NVMe SSD is the current boot drive, and it would be a PITA to test - involving a full OS install to a small SSD I have laying around. Or maybe cloning, but I don't think I have a big enough SATA SSD for that.

Perhaps swapping PCIe slots between the Aquantia x4 and LSI x8 cards would partially solve the problem. Aquantia card running at PCIe 3.0 x1 would not quite hit 10 Gbps anymore, though. LSI card running at PCIe 3.0 x4 would not quite hit 4GB/s either, but it should be close, at least in theory. It's certainly an easier test to switch PCIe slots than to remove the NVMe drive.
The closest motherboard I could find to your specs is this ASUS Threadripper Pro model, which has eight SATA ports and seven PCIE 4.0 slots, but has dual 10G ethernet ports so that the Aquantia card may not be needed anymore. Of course, that requires Threadripper (with Gen 3 due out soon, but possibly delayed), but that actually sounds right up your alley. I haven't read the manual to determine if any PCIE lanes are shared, but I doubt it on a Threadripper.

Of course, none of this solves your GPU problem, which will persist until crypto crashes.
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