HOA Advantage

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Sandtrap
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Sandtrap »

sport wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:21 pm There have been a number of posters who said they do not want to own a home with a Home Owners Association (HOA). So, I wanted to share an advantage that our HOA has established. Each year, the HOA publishes a list of service companies that have been used by and recommended by the home owners. This list includes plumbers, electricians, landscaping, handymen, painting, roofing, etc. Since our HOA has more than 100 homes, the service companies want to be on that list, and do not want to do anything to get removed from the list. So, I believe those companies try to treat the members of our HOA fairly, with reasonable prices. I have recently used three companies I found on that list and was completely satisfied with all of them. Of course, the HOA states that they cannot guarantee the performance of any of these companies. However, just being on the list seems to provide incentive for them to do the right things for their customers in our HOA.
To some, there are many advantages to living in an HOA community, whether private gated with a golf course or otherwise:

1. Tends to have a certain range of demograph and peer group, social group, etc. which some feel comfortable with.
2. May have a certain social status or upscale feel or "quality" associated and known about it in the state or region that is attractive. IE: (fictitional) "Pinnacle Country Club Equestrian Ferarri Estates. . . .. "
3. Homes and community have a consistency of appearance and so forth because of the CCR's, etc, as maintained and enforced by the HOA, etc, etc.
4. There is a reassurance that the "community" will remain up to a certain level of standards in the future, and, if there are "violations", there are ways of enforcing conformity and compliance.
5. Predictable R/E valuations to some degree.
6. Sense of community and conformity with known boundaries, rules of behavior, and guidelines for . . . . . etc. etc. etc.
7. There may be boards, chairs, committees, and a sense of organizational structure, oversight, and enforcement, that are attractive to many.

Cons?
Likely includes the opposite of the above.

j :D
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SuzBanyan
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by SuzBanyan »

One possible advantage for living in an HOA, especially for the retired, is the opportunity to serve on the Board. My father has been on the Board for his HOA for much of the time since he retired 30 years ago. He also works as the unofficial handyman for simple repairs at the clubhouse and pool and supervises hired workers for more complex repairs. He really enjoys doing his part in this manner and knows his neighbors better due to his involvement. Now that my Mom has passed, he really should move to a smaller place but would still like to be involved with an HOA.
stan1
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by stan1 »

It's simple:

If you don't like the rules, you should definitely not buy into a HOA community.

If you like the rules go ahead.

I don't understand why someone would move into a HOA community planning to fight over their right to have a weed filled lawn, purple front door, and violate parking rules. I suppose some people don't read thoroughly or assume the rules apply to others but don't apply to them. Or some people just need someone to fight with so the HOA is an easy target.
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Doom&Gloom
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Doom&Gloom »

bob60014 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:40 am
JaneyLH wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:52 pm We have found one huge benefit of our HOA that hasn’t been mentioned yet. This is worth the $120/month we pay in assessments. We get a gate and a call box.

We moved in before the development was completed and the gate was left open because of the construction activity. After we moved in, we noticed cars slowly circling our neighborhood in the wee hours of the morning. Clearly casing the place. We are at the upper end for the area. After the gate was closed, this activity ended. The gate seems to be a definite deterrent to people up to no good! We have had no crime in 16 years in our small community. There are other housing developments around us who deal with the crime… including a murder........
Perhaps. But they were more likely construction site thiefs going after easy pickings. When the gate became operational, that stopped the opportunist.

Murders happen in gated communities too!
Even more likely that they were people cruising for items of value that had been put out on the curb for the trash collectors.
Normchad
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Normchad »

stan1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 am It's simple:

If you don't like the rules, you should definitely not buy into a HOA community.

If you like the rules go ahead.

I don't understand why someone would move into a HOA community planning to fight over their right to have a weed filled lawn, purple front door, and violate parking rules. I suppose some people don't read thoroughly or assume the rules apply to others but don't apply to them. Or some people just need someone to fight with so the HOA is an easy target.
Good points. HOAs ensure a degree of uniformity. If you like the rules, you will be surrounded by others who also like the rules.... and desire that uniformity.

And if you don’t like the rules, you just wouldn’t be happy there.
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sperry8
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by sperry8 »

sport wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:21 pm There have been a number of posters who said they do not want to own a home with a Home Owners Association (HOA). So, I wanted to share an advantage that our HOA has established. Each year, the HOA publishes a list of service companies that have been used by and recommended by the home owners. This list includes plumbers, electricians, landscaping, handymen, painting, roofing, etc. Since our HOA has more than 100 homes, the service companies want to be on that list, and do not want to do anything to get removed from the list. So, I believe those companies try to treat the members of our HOA fairly, with reasonable prices. I have recently used three companies I found on that list and was completely satisfied with all of them. Of course, the HOA states that they cannot guarantee the performance of any of these companies. However, just being on the list seems to provide incentive for them to do the right things for their customers in our HOA.
My building keeps a list. The contractors on it are horrible. The contractors know, since they are one of the few on the list, that you can't call anyone else without making life more difficult. You can of course, but the HOA management makes life much harder when going this route. Those contractors that are good charge significantly more as well.

I've had contractors turn me away due to this. They say they don't want to work in my building (or even in my area) as it's too hard, too complicated and not worth the money and time.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by RickBoglehead »

Normchad wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 am
stan1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 am It's simple:

If you don't like the rules, you should definitely not buy into a HOA community.

If you like the rules go ahead.

I don't understand why someone would move into a HOA community planning to fight over their right to have a weed filled lawn, purple front door, and violate parking rules. I suppose some people don't read thoroughly or assume the rules apply to others but don't apply to them. Or some people just need someone to fight with so the HOA is an easy target.
Good points. HOAs ensure a degree of uniformity. If you like the rules, you will be surrounded by others who also like the rules.... and desire that uniformity.

And if you don’t like the rules, you just wouldn’t be happy there.
We're in our second HOA. 11 years in the first one, 14 in this one. Your statement, while logical, is fallacious. We have just under 150 lots. The vast majority of homeowners have never read the rules. Roughly 20% of them don't follow them, and get all upset when it's brought to their attention. Some are ignorant, some just refuse to read them. I had one tell me "they're too long". I asked if they had read the 2 page summary, and their answer was silence. Our HOA has selective enforcement. Our annual meetings in 2018 and 2019 had no quorum, therefore no one currently in office is actually "in office".

Our next home will have an HOA only if we have no other choice.
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Nowizard
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Nowizard »

We have had excellent experience with HOA's. The comparison with our subdivision and the one across the street is dramatic. Theirs is an older subdivision with what appears to be pretty much a casual HOA. Ours is very careful to follow the guidelines and to remind the diverse occupants of expectations. There are always one or two on the Board who want compulsive attention to their current passion, but the covenants limit that ability. We have also lived in an older subdivision with an active HOA. As with most things, perhaps particularly when involving volunteers, there will be variability. It does not hurt if those living in the subdivision are already into keeping yards and landscape in good shape since that is a focus. We are and appreciate the enforcement of covenants with the shadow of the stick rather than the stick itself.

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newyorker
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by newyorker »

I reserve the right to do whatever the hell I want to do on and to my property. No need for retired grannies and grandpas with too much time on their hands to tell me what to do.
sandan
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by sandan »

HOA's are generally nice to have if they are functioning (which has been the case for me in three separate occasions). Just make sure to be helpful and not criticize.

Overall, I'm not big on living next to people that enjoy polluting. The fees and rules tend to detract them from the neighborhood. I view it similar to going to a national park vs. a random lake.
nalor511
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by nalor511 »

newyorker wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:07 am I reserve the right to do whatever the hell I want to do on and to my property. No need for retired grannies and grandpas with too much time on their hands to tell me what to do.
You actually don't have that right anyway, due to planning/building code, local/county/state/federal ordinances. HOA is just one more layer of controls, to many of which you're already subject.
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sport
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by sport »

sperry8 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:54 am
sport wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:21 pm There have been a number of posters who said they do not want to own a home with a Home Owners Association (HOA). So, I wanted to share an advantage that our HOA has established. Each year, the HOA publishes a list of service companies that have been used by and recommended by the home owners. This list includes plumbers, electricians, landscaping, handymen, painting, roofing, etc. Since our HOA has more than 100 homes, the service companies want to be on that list, and do not want to do anything to get removed from the list. So, I believe those companies try to treat the members of our HOA fairly, with reasonable prices. I have recently used three companies I found on that list and was completely satisfied with all of them. Of course, the HOA states that they cannot guarantee the performance of any of these companies. However, just being on the list seems to provide incentive for them to do the right things for their customers in our HOA.
My building keeps a list. The contractors on it are horrible. The contractors know, since they are one of the few on the list, that you can't call anyone else without making life more difficult. You can of course, but the HOA management makes life much harder when going this route. Those contractors that are good charge significantly more as well.

I've had contractors turn me away due to this. They say they don't want to work in my building (or even in my area) as it's too hard, too complicated and not worth the money and time.
Condos in a building are an entirely different situation than mine. We have cluster homes and each homeowner is responsible for their own house, inside and out. We can call any service company we wish, but the list makes it easier to find one, and the companies have an extra incentive to treat us properly.
newyorker
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by newyorker »

nalor511 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:15 pm
newyorker wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:07 am I reserve the right to do whatever the hell I want to do on and to my property. No need for retired grannies and grandpas with too much time on their hands to tell me what to do.
You actually don't have that right anyway, due to planning/building code, local/county/state/federal ordinances. HOA is just one more layer of controls, to many of which you're already subject.
I get that but id rather hear from LEO than some nobody retirees who really have nothing better to do with their lives than being nosy. I dont mow my lawn lol.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

smitcat wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:08 am
A gate and call box deters very little.
^this

Every delivery person knows the gate code. I know the gate code to the one gated community in my town. My son used to deliver newspapers and I'd help on Sundays when the volume was significantly more than any other day. So I needed the code to get in. I suppose you could assume a burglar would never get that code. If you feel this is true, you're being naive.

When you get right down to it, that particular community is gated because it's across the street from a state park that costs money to come into. All streets are marked no parking. So people wanting to come, park for free and go to the park would come into this community in the past and take up the limited parking spaces. So that gate isn't really for security....but to keep state park goers from using them as a parking lot.
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MarkBarb
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by MarkBarb »

There are good and bad HOAs and there are a lot of people that like to complain about them. But, at least around here, the fact that there are very few neighborhoods built without them shows that people overwhelmingly find them desirable. If they didn't, a smart developer would make a killing by bucking the trend and building a neighborhood without one.
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Kenkat
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Kenkat »

How many of the people complaining about living in HOAs have never actually lived in one? Answer honestly for yourself. There’s a perception that isn’t always reality. Maybe you’ve seen the Geico commercial where the HOA is cutting down people’s mailboxes for being out of compliance. The HOA I live in is nothing like that. It serves its primary purpose of keeping the community entrance and stormwater detention area maintained and that’s pretty much it.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by RickBoglehead »

MarkBarb wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:10 pm There are good and bad HOAs and there are a lot of people that like to complain about them. But, at least around here, the fact that there are very few neighborhoods built without them shows that people overwhelmingly find them desirable. If they didn't, a smart developer would make a killing by bucking the trend and building a neighborhood without one.
Also fallacious in many areas, where the town requires communities to have HOAs to offload services.

All our roads are private. We pay to plow and repave.
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LittleMaggieMae
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by LittleMaggieMae »

HOA's are like Pizza. I like Pizza - as long as it's from one of the pizza places I like to get pizza from and it's the kind of Pizza I'm in the mood for.
(if you want thin crust with a sweet basil sauce you order from A, if you want thin crust with a less sweet sauce you order from B, if you want thick crust - well, I'm gonna need you to answer a bunch of questions to determine which of 4 places we should order from. If you want deep dish - again more questions to determine which of the 3 other places we should order from. - All of the places are either local bars, local Italian restaurants, mom and pop "fast food places" or mom and pop pizza places. I don't do national chain pizza places. :)


So, just because I don't like Domino's Pizza - cause, well, yuck. That doesn't mean all Pizza is bad.


TBH: I like my rental townhouse's HOA. They do an excellent job.
Locally, a friend lives in townhouse subdivision and they like their HOA - it keeps everything looking freakishly perfect and the same across 60 houses. My friend finds this "peaceful, comforting, and secure". They don't care that they can't choose what color to paint their front door or that they can only plant plants based on a pre approved list in their unit's garden area. They like that HOA doesn't allow loud parties or large dogs (or too many pets) or overnight parking on the street or driveway. (You are limited to 2 cars per household). It's a subdivision filled with empty nesters, singles, and young couples without kids (or just starting families and who will eventually move out). Bland, quiet, predictable.
DVMResident
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by DVMResident »

DesertDiva wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:48 pm
Nate79 wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:34 pm Ok, so score is:
Advantage HOA: 1
Disadvantage HOA: 100
Helps maintain my property value: priceless.
That's not quite true and is much more nuanced. There's actual data on the impact of HOAs on property values. Even the pro-HOA think tank/lobbying group Community Associations Institute admits while HOAs initially increase home values, over the long term (>25 years) home values decline:
Although private contracts with restrictions lessen the housing consumption risk faced by all users within the subdivision, the value of deed restrictions decreases over time and over-restrictive covenants can negatively impact property values (Hughes and Turnbull, 1996; Dehring and Lind, 2007). For example, 10 year old neighborhoods based on restrictions were found to have a 6% housing value increase, but a 20 year old neighborhood was found to have only have a 2% housing value increase(Hughes and Turnbull, 1996). In years 25-27, deed restrictions actually had a negative impact on deed-restricted subdivisions (Rogers, 2010). Additionally, it has been shown that the premium of an HOA on housing values decreases over time at approximately .4%/year (Meltzer and Cheung, 2014). Furthermore, younger HOAs seem better shielded from negative price effects due to higher delinquency exposure rates (Cheung, Cunningham and Meltzer, 2014).In regards to excessive private land use controls, zoning must be taken into account to ensure that public zoning regulations coupled with private covenant regulations are not over burdensome to future homeowners. This burden can erase any positive property value impacts of community associations; or worse, generate a negative property value effect (Dehring and Lind, 2007).
This is sans fees. Inclusive of HOAs fee, imputed decline of property values are pretty stark. However, this is a bit complicated as HOAs fees are wrapped up with services and difficult to untangle value vs costs (though Melzer & Cheung, 2014 have a good stab at that question).


As an interesting aside, HOAs do have a positive "spillover effect" that improve neighboring (<1/2 mile) non-HOA properties, which you can read about in detail in Meltzer & Cheung, 2014. More value/less fees. Can you get more Bogleheady? :beer
MarkBarb
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by MarkBarb »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:45 pm
MarkBarb wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 3:10 pm There are good and bad HOAs and there are a lot of people that like to complain about them. But, at least around here, the fact that there are very few neighborhoods built without them shows that people overwhelmingly find them desirable. If they didn't, a smart developer would make a killing by bucking the trend and building a neighborhood without one.
Also fallacious in many areas, where the town requires communities to have HOAs to offload services.

All our roads are private. We pay to plow and repave.
Even if it is true that some areas require an HOA, that doesn't mean that they aren't popular. I've lived in several areas where they are optional and I can't recall a single modern traditional neighborhood that didn't opt to have an HOA. Most suburbanites don't want to take what they perceive as a big risk on their most expensive asset. That doesn't mean that they don't complain about them a lot, but when it comes time to buy a house, they choose them. Maybe somebody can chime in from an area where they are both optional and unpopular to refute my point, but saying that the local government requires them in some places doesn't mean that they aren't popular.
smitcat
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by smitcat »

Kenkat wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:23 pm How many of the people complaining about living in HOAs have never actually lived in one? Answer honestly for yourself. There’s a perception that isn’t always reality. Maybe you’ve seen the Geico commercial where the HOA is cutting down people’s mailboxes for being out of compliance. The HOA I live in is nothing like that. It serves its primary purpose of keeping the community entrance and stormwater detention area maintained and that’s pretty much it.
FWIW - I have lived in an HOA.
Shem002
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Shem002 »

Personally I would rather purchase the land around my house to have control over it and keep as an investment instead of paying every month for someone else to look after.
iamlucky13
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by iamlucky13 »

stan1 wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:31 am It's simple:

If you don't like the rules, you should definitely not buy into a HOA community.

If you like the rules go ahead.

I don't understand why someone would move into a HOA community planning to fight over their right to have a weed filled lawn, purple front door, and violate parking rules. I suppose some people don't read thoroughly or assume the rules apply to others but don't apply to them. Or some people just need someone to fight with so the HOA is an easy target.
It's not simple because a very high proportion of newer homes are in HOA's, which depending on the region, can drastically reduce your options.

Furthermore, it has become very obvious to me over the years from the numerous discussions I've had on the topic with friends and family who live in HOA's that the implications of buying in a community with an HOA are unclear to many buyers (in part because those implications vary a lot from community to community, as does level of enforcement - eg: what shade of green constitutes fulfillment lawn maintenance requirements). I would take your supposition that some people don't read CCR's thoroughly and further propose that most people don't read CCR's thoroughly and first start to grasp what they agreed to when informed of a violation they didn't realize was a problem.

Which is hardly a surprise. It was obvious when we bought our home was that even in the aftermath of the robo-signing controversy, almost nobody in the home buying process expected us to read any of the documents in detail. It was always, "This document covers topic X. It's a standard form, so please sign the last page." The title company scheduled 30 minutes for signing and ignored my request to send a copy of the documents the day before so I could read them ahead of time.

It took me 2 hours to read everything. They were polite about it, but it was pretty obvious that I was the exception, not the norm, and their schedule for the morning had been disrupted because they didn't take seriously my stated intent to actually read what I was agreeing to. Also, when I jokingly raised a question about the restrictions in the mortgage security instrument about storing radioactive material onsite (no exceptions for smoke detectors or granite countertops!), I could not help but sense they had not read the documents either.
criticalmass
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by criticalmass »

JaneyLH wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:52 pm We have found one huge benefit of our HOA that hasn’t been mentioned yet. This is worth the $120/month we pay in assessments. We get a gate and a call box.

We moved in before the development was completed and the gate was left open because of the construction activity. After we moved in, we noticed cars slowly circling our neighborhood in the wee hours of the morning. Clearly casing the place. We are at the upper end for the area. After the gate was closed, this activity ended. The gate seems to be a definite deterrent to people up to no good! We have had no crime in 16 years in our small community. There are other housing developments around us who deal with the crime… including a murder. I happily write out the dues checks.

My husband and I travel about 50% of the time and the peace of mind we have about leaving our home empty half the time is priceless. The neighbors know who belongs and who doesn’t. I grew up on 40 acres in a remote rural area and the amount of crime that occurred there was appalling.
Is there a continuous perimeter fence attached to the gate? Local gated neighborhoods have been experiencing car break ins and thefts. The suspects walked into the neighborhood to do their dirty work.

Stolen cars were easy to drive out: The gate opens automatically to exit.

Beware the false security of a gate only approach.

In some cases even the newspaper delivery kids know the codes if they don’t just walk through.
chemocean
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by chemocean »

FelixTheCat wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm I will always have an HOA that mandates what you can do with your property.
Unless the HOA is willing to sue under the covenants or bylaws of the HOA, the HOA has no teeth. In this case, homeowners have a guideline that they can ignore.
hnd
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by hnd »

my buddy is the president of his HOA. they have a preferred vendor list or at least they used to. He was tired of the constant soliciations of home improvement people wanting to grease the skids to get on the list. they basically make it seem this is HOA modus operandi.

He's the president because the people running it were morons and he easily put his name in the hat and was voted in initially as treasurer and once he asked a bunch of question about the operations, they all resigned.

I think some HOA's are reasonable. i think many are terrible. the house nearest to us is 300 yards away yet i'm 15 minutes from city center. this is much preferable to neighbors and HOA's.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by RickBoglehead »

chemocean wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:30 am
FelixTheCat wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm I will always have an HOA that mandates what you can do with your property.
Unless the HOA is willing to sue under the covenants or bylaws of the HOA, the HOA has no teeth. In this case, homeowners have a guideline that they can ignore.
The HOA can assess fines, which may or may not be governed by local or state laws. They can then file a lien against the property, which prevents refinancing or sale of the property without being paid.

I was president of a previous HOA years ago (to get things done). Had a property owned by a bank after the owners walked. Expensive house also. Bank wouldn't cut lawn. Sent them letter, "The Board has discussed assessing a $1,000 per day fine..." They came and cut the lawn every week. Of course could we legally charge $1,000 a day? No. We said we discussed it. :wink:
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TheHiker
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by TheHiker »

smitcat wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:08 am
JaneyLH wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:52 pm We have found one huge benefit of our HOA that hasn’t been mentioned yet. This is worth the $120/month we pay in assessments. We get a gate and a call box.
A gate and call box deters very little.
The only time my car was broken into was inside of a gated community.
They are often gated for a reason...
alfaspider
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by alfaspider »

IMO wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:11 pm
Like the concept of HOA's (keeping junk cars off lawns, etc), frustrated by the trivial nickpicking that's common from experience owning in multiple hoa' communities.
But you don't need HOAs to keep junk cars off lawns. You just need sufficiently high property values such that the owners are not the type of people who would keep junk cars around. Never seen a junk car in my neighborhood and the lawns are typically immaculate. No HOA.

HOAs that enforce conformity can actually inhibit neighborhood value. My old neighborhood was more of a "funky" urban neighborhood that had things like quirky houses painted polka dot. It was precisely because of that vibe that it became a hot and hip neighborhood (worth a solid 3x on a sq ft basis compared to the beige HOA neighborhoods in the burbs).
tibbitts
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by tibbitts »

criticalmass wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:34 am
FelixTheCat wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm No HOA?

My neighbor across the street used his garage to store junk. His driveway had two broken down cars. His front lawn had a car engine they were working on. On the street in front of the house were two boats on rusted trailers that never moved.

The neighbor used to get upset that we parked in the street in front of our house. They had five drivers and they needed a place to park. They thought we were inconsiderate of their needs.

This is just one house on the street I grew up. I will always have an HOA that mandates what you can do with your property.
That sounds like a town zoning and code enforcement issue, not an excuse for an HOA. Car engine in front lawn? Trailers stored on a residential street? My town would have done their job and had that taken care of very quickly.
Some cities and towns span both relatively traditional city as well as rural areas, so it's not appropriate for municipal restrictions to apply to the entire "city." There are places within the same jurisdiction where, for example, storing an RV would be appropriate. So intentionally those restrictions are left up to HOAs. Of course there can be zoning restrictions specific to areas but they don't always incorporate every detail that HOA rules would.
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sport
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by sport »

Our HOA is not so much about restrictions as it is about providing service. The HOA provides lawn care, landscaping, snow removal, trash pickup, road maintenance etc. We each own our own houses and not having to deal with these responsibilities is very nice.
iamlucky13
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by iamlucky13 »

criticalmass wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:58 am
JaneyLH wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:52 pm We have found one huge benefit of our HOA that hasn’t been mentioned yet. This is worth the $120/month we pay in assessments. We get a gate and a call box.
Is there a continuous perimeter fence attached to the gate? Local gated neighborhoods have been experiencing car break ins and thefts. The suspects walked into the neighborhood to do their dirty work.
The reminds me of the period while my neighbor's house was empty after he passed away. This is not in an HOA, although his property was gated, but not with a continuous fence.

We came home from work one day to find tire tracks across our yard from the thieves driving around the gate to clean out his house.
chemocean
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by chemocean »

RickBoglehead wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:29 am
chemocean wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:30 am
FelixTheCat wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm I will always have an HOA that mandates what you can do with your property.
Unless the HOA is willing to sue under the covenants or bylaws of the HOA, the HOA has no teeth. In this case, homeowners have a guideline that they can ignore.
The HOA can assess fines, which may or may not be governed by local or state laws. They can then file a lien against the property, which prevents refinancing or sale of the property without being paid.

I was president of a previous HOA years ago (to get things done). Had a property owned by a bank after the owners walked. Expensive house also. Bank wouldn't cut lawn. Sent them letter, "The Board has discussed assessing a $1,000 per day fine..." They came and cut the lawn every week. Of course could we legally charge $1,000 a day? No. We said we discussed it. :wink:
Were fines and liens specifically listed as an action in the covenants and bylaws of the HOA? If fines and liens are not part of the covenants, then doesn't EVERY homeowner need to agree to add these? If fines and liens are not part of the bylaws, doesn't this action needs to be added with the majority vote of the HOA? I am not a lawyer, but I doubt if the exec. committee can unilaterally impose fines and liens that are not specifically authorized. You are correct, the banks usually contact the HOA to confirm that a homeowner in arrears of paying dues authorized in the by laws.
Ostentatious
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Ostentatious »

Subscribing......
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by RickBoglehead »

chemocean wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:00 pm
RickBoglehead wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 11:29 am
chemocean wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:30 am
FelixTheCat wrote: Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:35 pm I will always have an HOA that mandates what you can do with your property.
Unless the HOA is willing to sue under the covenants or bylaws of the HOA, the HOA has no teeth. In this case, homeowners have a guideline that they can ignore.
The HOA can assess fines, which may or may not be governed by local or state laws. They can then file a lien against the property, which prevents refinancing or sale of the property without being paid.

I was president of a previous HOA years ago (to get things done). Had a property owned by a bank after the owners walked. Expensive house also. Bank wouldn't cut lawn. Sent them letter, "The Board has discussed assessing a $1,000 per day fine..." They came and cut the lawn every week. Of course could we legally charge $1,000 a day? No. We said we discussed it. :wink:
Were fines and liens specifically listed as an action in the covenants and bylaws of the HOA? If fines and liens are not part of the covenants, then doesn't EVERY homeowner need to agree to add these? If fines and liens are not part of the bylaws, doesn't this action needs to be added with the majority vote of the HOA? I am not a lawyer, but I doubt if the exec. committee can unilaterally impose fines and liens that are not specifically authorized. You are correct, the banks usually contact the HOA to confirm that a homeowner in arrears of paying dues authorized in the by laws.
Part of covenants. No amount specified.
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tibbitts
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by tibbitts »

alfaspider wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:10 pm But you don't need HOAs to keep junk cars off lawns. You just need sufficiently high property values such that the owners are not the type of people who would keep junk cars around. Never seen a junk car in my neighborhood and the lawns are typically immaculate. No HOA.
That's sometimes the case about property values, but it isn't always about junk cars, sometimes it's about other things that for whatever reason neighbors don't appreciate having to look at (or around, etc.) I've seen examples in very expensive neighborhoods where people store their "toys" (sometimes toys that cost more than my house) in front of their house and some neighbors object to that. Generally HOAs prohibit that. Similarly sometimes in a very expensive neighborhood a resident my decide to have a "natural" lawn and again neighbors might not appreciate that.
SmokeyAbe
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by SmokeyAbe »

newyorker wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:07 am I reserve the right to do whatever the hell I want to do on and to my property. No need for retired grannies and grandpas with too much time on their hands to tell me what to do.
THANK YOU! :sharebeer :beer
alfaspider
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by alfaspider »

tibbitts wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:53 pm
alfaspider wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:10 pm But you don't need HOAs to keep junk cars off lawns. You just need sufficiently high property values such that the owners are not the type of people who would keep junk cars around. Never seen a junk car in my neighborhood and the lawns are typically immaculate. No HOA.
That's sometimes the case about property values, but it isn't always about junk cars, sometimes it's about other things that for whatever reason neighbors don't appreciate having to look at (or around, etc.) I've seen examples in very expensive neighborhoods where people store their "toys" (sometimes toys that cost more than my house) in front of their house and some neighbors object to that. Generally HOAs prohibit that. Similarly sometimes in a very expensive neighborhood a resident my decide to have a "natural" lawn and again neighbors might not appreciate that.
Never been an issue here. I believe the city already prohibits street parking of RVs and trailers overnight. Plus, folks can afford proper RV storage. They'd have no reason to store one long term in that manner (nor would they want to). No real unusual lawns, but I don't see a problem if someone wants a zen rock garden instead of grass.
Mr. Rumples
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Mr. Rumples »

I don't live in an HOA now. My neighbor across the field runs an illegal businesses, the guy across the street has a truck with no plates (code requires that it not be visible from the public right of way). The plus side is that I control the finances of my home instead of leaving it up to a board. I got off the phone with my cousin this morning...he is furious...he lives in an HOA, beautiful home right on the golf course...his neighbor put in a garden and its messy; the board accepted her argument that she needed it for her mental health.

I have lived in two HOA's and was on the board in each; each was in a different state. HOA laws vary widely from state to state as do the management of non-profits and also liens and so forth. Its further complicated by grandfathered HOA's. I think CO may have changed the law, but HOA's formed before a certain date were not required to conform to the most recent code enactments...in short it can get complicated.
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Isabelle77
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Isabelle77 »

I live in an area of the country with a serious homeless issue and general affordability problem. Our suburban town is considering drastic zoning changes to allow for multi family housing anywhere, ADUs without permits, and even extended RV camping. Our HOA rules will prevent these changes from happening in our neighborhood. Worth all the dues.
alfaspider
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by alfaspider »

Isabelle77 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:14 am I live in an area of the country with a serious homeless issue and general affordability problem. Our suburban town is considering drastic zoning changes to allow for multi family housing anywhere, ADUs without permits, and even extended RV camping. Our HOA rules will prevent these changes from happening in our neighborhood. Worth all the dues.
Deed restrictions would accomplish that with no dues.
alfaspider
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by alfaspider »

Mr. Rumples wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:45 am I got off the phone with my cousin this morning...he is furious...he lives in an HOA, beautiful home right on the golf course...his neighbor put in a garden and its messy; the board accepted her argument that she needed it for her mental health.
I hope I never come to a point in life where someone's garden makes me "furious."
rich126
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by rich126 »

Even with HOAs you can run into some interesting problems. Personally I've only lived in one area with an HOA (Scottsdale where they seem to cover 99% of the town). Back during the last housing craze in ~2007-2009 I lived in an area where all of the homes were single story and all of the properties had privacy fences (I guess you can call them painted block walls?). So if you sat in your backyard you mostly had privacy unless a neighbor walked up to the fence and looked over (I think the walls were close to 6 ft tall).

Anyhow what happened is that some people decided to add a second story to their home. Neighbors weren't too happy because they lost privacy and the homes no longer appeared to fit into the community. The HOA fought it but lost in court. Fortunately not many people did this and once housing collapsed no one else really tried it anymore.

I'm currently living in a neighborhood with no HOA and some people do a good job at keeping up homes but others are horrible eyesores (and I'm not being overly critical). They literally are junkyards, one guy seems to be working as a mechanic with a ton of cars parked at the house. Some homes are at the point where you think it is dangerous to live in, etc.

Ideally a moderate HOA would be nice but you then get people on power trips and go to extremes. There are some where people can't even park in a driveway if the car doesn't have a permit. I think I prefer a moderately upscale neighborhood with no HOA. Some HOAs have very high fees that only seem to go up and up.
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smitcat
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by smitcat »

rich126 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 10:51 am Even with HOAs you can run into some interesting problems. Personally I've only lived in one area with an HOA (Scottsdale where they seem to cover 99% of the town). Back during the last housing craze in ~2007-2009 I lived in an area where all of the homes were single story and all of the properties had privacy fences (I guess you can call them painted block walls?). So if you sat in your backyard you mostly had privacy unless a neighbor walked up to the fence and looked over (I think the walls were close to 6 ft tall).

Anyhow what happened is that some people decided to add a second story to their home. Neighbors weren't too happy because they lost privacy and the homes no longer appeared to fit into the community. The HOA fought it but lost in court. Fortunately not many people did this and once housing collapsed no one else really tried it anymore.

I'm currently living in a neighborhood with no HOA and some people do a good job at keeping up homes but others are horrible eyesores (and I'm not being overly critical). They literally are junkyards, one guy seems to be working as a mechanic with a ton of cars parked at the house. Some homes are at the point where you think it is dangerous to live in, etc.

Ideally a moderate HOA would be nice but you then get people on power trips and go to extremes. There are some where people can't even park in a driveway if the car doesn't have a permit. I think I prefer a moderately upscale neighborhood with no HOA. Some HOAs have very high fees that only seem to go up and up.

"one guy seems to be working as a mechanic with a ton of cars parked at the house. Some homes are at the point where you think it is dangerous to live in, etc."
This would be against our town ordinaces and easily handled - any of the situations that would be descibed as 'dangerous' would similarly be covered.
Normchad
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by Normchad »

I’m sure they vary widely from state to state. I’m only familiar with the ones in Virginia.

I wouldn’t live in a neighborhood that didn’t have an HOA.

And the people that hate HOAs, really hate them. And they should never live in a neighborhood that has one.

In Virginia, as far as I know, all buyers are required to be given the HOA documentation, and CCRs, at least 3 days prior to closing. So nobody should be surprised by what they’re getting into.

We do know from history though, that some people don’t bother to read or understand what they buy. And I also know that some unscrupulous realtors lie to the buyers......
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by rich126 »

We do know from history though, that some people don’t bother to read or understand what they buy. And I also know that some unscrupulous realtors lie to the buyers......
Some? I'd say the vast majority. They see some big document and go, "uh ok" and toss it somewhere never to be seen again.
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smitcat
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by smitcat »

Normchad wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:08 am I’m sure they vary widely from state to state. I’m only familiar with the ones in Virginia.

I wouldn’t live in a neighborhood that didn’t have an HOA.

And the people that hate HOAs, really hate them. And they should never live in a neighborhood that has one.

In Virginia, as far as I know, all buyers are required to be given the HOA documentation, and CCRs, at least 3 days prior to closing. So nobody should be surprised by what they’re getting into.

We do know from history though, that some people don’t bother to read or understand what they buy. And I also know that some unscrupulous realtors lie to the buyers......
"In Virginia, as far as I know, all buyers are required to be given the HOA documentation, and CCRs, at least 3 days prior to closing. So nobody should be surprised by what they’re getting into."
I would hope that any relavent HOA documents were available before committing to purchase the property - 3 days prior to closing is problematic at best.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by RickBoglehead »

rich126 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:50 am
We do know from history though, that some people don’t bother to read or understand what they buy. And I also know that some unscrupulous realtors lie to the buyers......
Some? I'd say the vast majority. They see some big document and go, "uh ok" and toss it somewhere never to be seen again.
This ^^^

We have over 125 lots. In the past several attempts to have an annual meeting, we could not get a quorum of 30% of the homeowners to attend or give a proxy. Therefore, the last annual meeting held was in 2017. No quorum in 2018, but the board held a vote (that isn't legal) to elect the additional board members for that year. No quorum in 2019. 2020 no meeting held due to pandemic, with promise of April. April came and went...

Neighbors across street drove ATVs in the woods behind their property, i.e. on Association land. 1) No ATVs permitted in Association. 2) Association property damage. They were "shocked" and "had no knowledge of this". However, when they moved in we went over and welcomed them, talked for a while, and then emailed them links to the Association documents. They never read them. Then they got nailed for their kids building a fort in space that is "conservation space" on their property after they cleared it - in violation again.

They are now annoyed that board has not approved their repainting request in 3 months. Then want to paint their house white. Association documents say colors must blend in with other houses and natural environment. Yeah, white does that well...
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RickBoglehead
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by RickBoglehead »

smitcat wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 11:55 am I would hope that any relavent HOA documents were available before committing to purchase the property - 3 days prior to closing is problematic at best.
Many HOAs have website with these documents on them.

Anyone seeking to buy in an HOA-governed area can request them.

Laws are to ENSURE that they are delivered to the buyer before they closed in the example you commented on.
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tibbitts
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Re: HOA Advantage

Post by tibbitts »

alfaspider wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 8:32 am
tibbitts wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:53 pm
alfaspider wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 3:10 pm But you don't need HOAs to keep junk cars off lawns. You just need sufficiently high property values such that the owners are not the type of people who would keep junk cars around. Never seen a junk car in my neighborhood and the lawns are typically immaculate. No HOA.
That's sometimes the case about property values, but it isn't always about junk cars, sometimes it's about other things that for whatever reason neighbors don't appreciate having to look at (or around, etc.) I've seen examples in very expensive neighborhoods where people store their "toys" (sometimes toys that cost more than my house) in front of their house and some neighbors object to that. Generally HOAs prohibit that. Similarly sometimes in a very expensive neighborhood a resident my decide to have a "natural" lawn and again neighbors might not appreciate that.
Never been an issue here. I believe the city already prohibits street parking of RVs and trailers overnight. Plus, folks can afford proper RV storage. They'd have no reason to store one long term in that manner (nor would they want to). No real unusual lawns, but I don't see a problem if someone wants a zen rock garden instead of grass.
I was referring to on-property parking of RVs, not parking on the street. Offsite RV storage has nothing to do with cost: it vastly diminishes the RV-owning experience. Now if you're saying everyone in your neighborhood has sufficient space and access and regulations will permit them to construct a large storage facility on their property for an RV, that's completely different.

But the point is that because situations like "natural" lawns (with weeds that will spread to every other lawn in the neighborhood) or oversize commercial/RV/off-road-vehicle storage don't happen to occur in your neighborhood doesn't mean they don't occur anywhere (possibly almost everywhere) else in neighborhoods that are very similar to yours.
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