tankless water heater?

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bernoulli
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tankless water heater?

Post by bernoulli »

Fellow BHs:

Your thoughts/experience on installing a tankless water heater? Some of the questions I have are:

1) your particular reason and experience with an electric or a gas tankless?

2) are they operationally preferred over a conventional water heater?

3) if you were to replace your current water heater, what would you replace it with?

We current have a direct vent gas water heater and I think replacing it with a tankless will involve modification to the gas line, so trying to decide the most optimize way to go about it, ease of installation, ease of operation and maintenance, etc.

Thanks for your input.
mrgeeze
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by mrgeeze »

I've owned gas tankless water heaters in 2 different homes.
I've used electric tankless water heaters in europe and latin america.

I would opt for gas over electricity.
I hope they last longer than a tank as tank heaters typically fail from corrosion.
I would replace my existing tankless with another tankless.

Tankless water heaters do require some consideration in design.
Long runs to end point from the heater are to be avoided.
Sometimes a spot heater can acomodate such instances.
A tankless water heater has limited capability- 3 people simultaneously taking long showers while running the dishwasher and doing laundry- not a good idea. noone will be happy.
also, your plates will be dirty and your clothes may not be clean.

having said that, when i shower, once the water is hot, it stays scalding hot (if i want it) till i am ready to say when.
I am a fan
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walkabout
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by walkabout »

Make sure your gas line is sized appropriately (ie that it is big enough).
Bud
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by Bud »

Installed tankless in two on my homes - they work great! Mine are electric and they seem to reduce the electric bill so far.

Make sure your electrical panel can handle them. Also you may want to install a water filter in line to help preserve the tankless heater if you have lots of sentiment or minerals in your water supply.
rj342
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by rj342 »

Bought a gas tankless 9 years ago when Energy Star credits in place (although I think gas co played price games to captures some of it)
It replaced an electric heater that came w house (built in 1990). We tried the timer thing w water heater but it didnt help much w cost and was a nuisance in lack of flexibility.

Since we tied in at approx same location near kitchen and laundry room, means run a bit long to master bathroom.
Brand is Rinnai, Japanese IIRC. Electric bill did go down by more than the newly added gas bill, so a win there.

LOVE the convenience of never running out of hot water. There were two sizes available - we went w smaller one since since 1800sq ft house w only 2 bathrooms, and 3 of us. More people bigger house prob want the larger one.

Since we are in deep south on gulf coast, we went with an exterior mount tankless, since meant we did not have to cut venting through roof (remember we had electric water heater before) -- meaning less install cost plus not adding a weak point for a roof leak. We did spend a few bucks on a shroud that keeps cold wind off the piping at bottom of the unit in winter.

A few gotchas:
1. W Energy Star dishwasher using such little water, we make sure to run the kitchen faucet until water gets full hot before starting dishwasher (and immediately turn off faucet!) Other wise could get less than perfectly clean dishes since started w a bit more cold water otherwise.
2. Watch out your water/sewer bill climbing and eating into savings since you don't have in back of your mind risk of running out of hot water while in the shower any more. It has bit us.
3. Unlike a standard dumb gas water heater, the modern tankless wont run if power is out because of the electronic controls.
ncbill
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by ncbill »

I'd never pick tankless here.

Twice as expensive to install as a tank heater (different venting) & would require regular maintenance (back-flushing) multiple times/year given our water's mineral content.

All I have to do with my tank natural gas-fired water heater is to check the anode every 5 years or so.
BBQ Nut
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by BBQ Nut »

In earthquake country a tank water heater can be a source of potable water.

50 gallons could go a long way if there was an interruption to water during 'a big one'.
jlawrence01
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by jlawrence01 »

bernoulli wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:56 am Fellow BHs:

Your thoughts/experience on installing a tankless water heater? Some of the questions I have are:

1) your particular reason and experience with an electric or a gas tankless?

2) are they operationally preferred over a conventional water heater?

3) if you were to replace your current water heater, what would you replace it with?

We current have a direct vent gas water heater and I think replacing it with a tankless will involve modification to the gas line, so trying to decide the most optimize way to go about it, ease of installation, ease of operation and maintenance, etc.

Thanks for your input.


The last time that I asked for quotes, the traditional water heater was $800 installed; the tankless was $2400 installed. The expected life of the products according to the sales people was very similar. As we spend about $40/ month on electricity, I could not envision that we would be saving all that much in electricity using a tankless. Add in the fact that we turn off our water heater 10-12 weeks per year when we are gone, all I could calculate was a negative ROI even using the vendor's numbers. Of course, I was told by the tankless water heater people that "you can't look at it that way" and that I could consider all of the benefits. My response was, "it's a lousy investment."

YMMV.
3504PIR
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by 3504PIR »

We had a tankless water heater (electric) in one of our homes in Europe and currently have a gas operated tankless in our home. The gas is superior IMO, as it only takes a few seconds to get hot water where the electric took a bit longer, like 25-30 seconds. We also have an unlimited supply of water via our well which has a vast water table and pumps out 200 gallons a minute so I enjoy some extended showers after being out in the fields cutting hay. In short, I am thrilled we put in the water heater we did!
fullplay2024
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by fullplay2024 »

I recently replaced two gas tanks with one gas tankless. Too early to say this, but I'm happy with the decision.
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Blueskies123
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by Blueskies123 »

If I recall you will need two 220v lines installed by an electrician if you go electric. At least that is what my relative had to do.
The thing broke right after the warranty period and was replaced with a tank heater. That is N=1.
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palaheel
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by palaheel »

Our kitchen/downstairs bathrooms/upstairs bathroom are all pretty far apart. The downstairs bathrooms are close to our water heater, but the other places take a long time to have hot water. I suspect that if we put in one tankless heater, the "time to hot water" for the kitchen and upstairs won't improve. Is there a way to put local units in those spots for faster hot water that's cost effective?
Nothing to say, really.
28fe6
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by 28fe6 »

I've had both types. Many regular type and a Rinnai.

I would probably not switch from tank to tankless unless you really don't care about the cost. The tankless are expensive up front and expensive to repair. My Rinnai racked up $800 worth of non-covered repairs even though it was under warranty. I could have replaced a tank type almost twice for that much money, and gone 10-20 years.

The Rinnai took longer for hot water to start. Only a few seconds. But really annoying in the kitchen. I would catch my wife leaving the sink running on warm just so she didn't have to wait an eternity for hot water to start. We contemplated putting a tiny tank type just to serve the kitchen.

The Rinnai was outside. It's protected from freezing down to a certain temperature, but only when the power is supplied. In case of an ice storm the power goes out and it freezes and breaks. That's not good for a seasonal house. You can install automatic drain systems to protect against freezing in power outages but that further increase cost and power consumption.

Even with freeze protection on the unit itself, the pipes going to it still froze once.

If you are building new or renovating, and are really short on space, tankless is worth thinking about but I'm not really sold. Tankless is sort of the high maintenance, high performance option. I think I prefer the cheap low tech option.

Electrical is usually not an option in a retrofit. Electric tankless need a power supply bigger than your whole house in some cases.
mattshwink
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by mattshwink »

We bought a short sale and put a good bit into fixing it up. One of those things we as replacing an old 50 gallon gas tank water heater with a gas tankless. It uses so little energy. From spring-fall my gas bill is only a few dollars for gas delivery (taxes and connection fees are higher then the actual delivery charge). Ours Rinnai can do two showers and another small appliance (e.g. dishwasher) at the same time. The other nice thing is the hot water temp is constant. It never varies, as the heater ensures that it delivers a constant temp. Whenever we had a tank in the past if you took a long shower (or one after the other) you would have to change the mix of hot and cold (lowering cold) to get the water to the same temp. That never happens with tankless.
6Pack
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by 6Pack »

Are you on a well or city water? We’re on a well and my plumber said we’d have nothing but trouble with a tankless heater. He said he has seen sediment and iron buildup problems in tankless heaters on well water.

Not sure if this applies to you, but I thought I’d mention it.
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fortfun
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by fortfun »

I'm too cheap and would never switch. We currently have 2, 40 gallon water heaters. They are 14 years old and showing no signs of failure. Our gas bill is very small. If you are afraid of running out of hot water, just turn up the temperature and it will go further (due to mixing with more cold water). I will be able to replace the tanks easily myself for less than $500 per tank (when the time comes). A friend of mine spent something like 5k to convert his tanks to tankless. I'll never understand. I think he did it because tankless sounded cool...
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bertilak
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by bertilak »

I have a Rinnai propane. Some observations:
  • The initial wait for hot water is no better than for a traditional tank as the wait is not a matter of heating the water (be it in a tank or on demand) but of getting it through, and heating up, the pipes. (The pipes don't leak water, but they do leak heat!)
  • They come in different capacities. Be sure to get one that's spec'd to keep up with the peak usage you want to support. Get that right and you will never worry about not having enough hot water. The water won't lose heat as it is used. (There is no tank for cold water to mix in with the hot.)
  • It does not take up what might otherwise be useful space in your house. It fits into a wall. Mine is in an exterior wall (simplifying exhaust) with 2x6 studs.
  • They are expensive but mine is now 12 years old with no sign of problems. This is because I have always put softened water through it. I have it inspected every few years. You're supposed to inspect it yearly, but after a couple of years with no corrosion nor scale buildup I decided to let it go for longer.
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Luckywon
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by Luckywon »

I have two gas Rinnai tankless heaters. I installed them because they are outdoors and I could make good use of the space where the indoor gas heater was previously. My reasoning for two heaters was that it saved on time to hot water at some of the outlets, and might not be more expensive long term as I assume the lifetime of each heater is related to total volume of hot water delivered (I wonder if this theory is correct). Also like the idea of having hot water in half the house if one of the unit fails.

I've been very happy with them. Love the endless hot water, relatively fast time to hot water, and have had them seven years with no maintenance to the heaters themselves. i did install a sediment filter for the water line to each heater on the advice of the plumber who installed them, and I have to replace the filter for each sediment filter which costs $80 each per year ($160) total. I'm not sure whether it's made any difference in my gas bill, but I suspect any difference is negligible.
HEDGEFUNDIE
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE »

bertilak wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:32 pm I have a Rinnai propane. Some observations:
  • The initial wait for hot water is no better than for a traditional tank as the wait is not a matter of heating the water (be it in a tank or on demand) but of getting it through, and heating up, the pipes. (The pipes don't leak water, but they do leak heat!)
  • They come in different capacities. Be sure to get one that's spec'd to keep up with the peak usage you want to support. Get that right and you will never worry about not having enough hot water. The water won't lose heat as it is used. (There is no tank for cold water to mix in with the hot.)
  • It does not take up what might otherwise be useful space in your house. It fits into a wall. Mine is in an exterior wall (simplifying exhaust) with 2x6 studs.
  • They are expensive but mine is now 12 years old with no sign of problems. This is because I have always put softened water through it. I have it inspected every few years. You're supposed to inspect it yearly, but after a couple of years with no corrosion nor scale buildup I decided to let it go for longer.
Who do you call for inspection? Plumber?
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sunny_socal
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by sunny_socal »

We have two on our house. Delay in hot water is the same as with a tank heater.

If I were able to choose, I'd select a tank since it provides a good emergency water supply.
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bertilak
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by bertilak »

HEDGEFUNDIE wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 12:58 am Who do you call for inspection? Plumber?
Yes. I asked for an inspection and cleaning. I always ask if they are an authorized Rinnai service/repair shop.

After the inspection they have always advised against a cleaning as it never seemed necessary.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
Tatala
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by Tatala »

\\

I put in an electric tankless in my place because gas was not available. I would not use anything else ever!. Yes, more expensive on the front end but my electric bill went down $75 a month. Think of it like this why heat water all the time when you only need hot water some of the time...it is plain ludicrous.
azanon
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by azanon »

I have a Rinnai Propane tankless water heater for a few years now, and probably wouldn't do it over again. I originally did it for the endless hot water (as it would take my entire tank to fill up my whirlpool with hot water), but these days I'm not taking whirlpool baths anymore. The downside is the original cost, plus add about 15-20 seconds before you actually get full temperature hot water at the faucets vs. a tank water heater (at least in my house).
tweeter
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by tweeter »

I used to work for a trade school and asked HVAC instructors about tank vs tankless. They told me tankless is more complicated and expensive to install. They also require more ongoing maintenance. The added complexity = higher chance of failure, more failure points, and more costly repairs. Tanks have been around for decades and are simple in design. Easy/cheap to troubleshoot and fix. Sometimes simple is best.
rj342
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by rj342 »

Adding to my post above -- I only switched to tankless because 20y old electric water heater was needing repair again and it was time to replace it.
The small TCO cost savings does not justify switching out a tank heater w a lot of life left on its own as a pure $$ decision.
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by A440 »

If you lose power, I don't believe a tankless will work, even if it is gas. This was the main reason we opted for a tank model, as we lose power several times a year. The ability to take a hot shower when we have no power is priceless.
The second reason was the gas tank model was a DIY installation and cost $750 all in.
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TheDDC
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by TheDDC »

bernoulli wrote: Mon May 27, 2019 11:56 am Fellow BHs:

Your thoughts/experience on installing a tankless water heater? Some of the questions I have are:

1) your particular reason and experience with an electric or a gas tankless?

2) are they operationally preferred over a conventional water heater?

3) if you were to replace your current water heater, what would you replace it with?

We current have a direct vent gas water heater and I think replacing it with a tankless will involve modification to the gas line, so trying to decide the most optimize way to go about it, ease of installation, ease of operation and maintenance, etc.

Thanks for your input.
We have a gas tankless. It's great energy-wise. All I pay for is the gas used to heat exactly what I need. There is a tiny bit of electricity needed to run the brainbox. That's it.

Just make sure you size it properly for the number of hot water use applications you have. Conventional water heaters are rated in terms of heated gallons. Tankless is rated in terms of flow rate (gallons per minute). Go for a high as possible.

If you have a hot water application far from the tankless unit you may need to consider installing a small pump unit or even a secondary water heater for a small amount of water to remind heated. It can take 20 seconds or so to heat.

As for electricity it does use a standard 120v receptacle. I plug ours into a battery UPS so mine would run in the case of an outage.

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ncbill
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by ncbill »

A440 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 11:14 am If you lose power, I don't believe a tankless will work, even if it is gas. This was the main reason we opted for a tank model, as we lose power several times a year. The ability to take a hot shower when we have no power is priceless.
The second reason was the gas tank model was a DIY installation and cost $750 all in.
There are gas-fired tankless water heaters that use water pressure to spark ignition via a piezo.

That's what our local Scout camp uses for showers (250 gallon propane tank at each site) since there's no power to the bathrooms, just running water supplied from a massive tank up on the ridge.

Are there still gas-fired tank water heaters available that use a standing pilot?
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bernoulli
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by bernoulli »

Thanks, everyone for your generous sharing of your experience/ideas. I really appreciate you taking the time to write a reply. It has given me much to consider :D
neilpilot
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by neilpilot »

ncbill wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 2:10 pm
There are gas-fired tankless water heaters that use water pressure to spark ignition via a piezo.

That's what our local Scout camp uses for showers (250 gallon propane tank at each site) since there's no power to the bathrooms, just running water supplied from a massive tank up on the ridge.

Are there still gas-fired tank water heaters available that use a standing pilot?
The 2 Bradford White tanks I have have a pilot light that powers the controls via piezo, and I know the current models still work this way.
UALflyer
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by UALflyer »

Tatala wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 7:09 am \\

I put in an electric tankless in my place because gas was not available. I would not use anything else ever!. Yes, more expensive on the front end but my electric bill went down $75 a month. Think of it like this why heat water all the time when you only need hot water some of the time...it is plain ludicrous.
This sounds like a tankless water heater marketing brochure. An average water heater runs 3 hours per day. A 50-gallon, 5,500-watt electric water heater with a .90 EF and an electricity rate of $.12 per kwh, which is the national average, will cost $49/month to operate. So, even if you were to completely turn off hot water, you'd only save $49/month.

If you have natural gas, a regular non-energy efficient 50 gallon gas water heater is rated to use 270 therms per year. In a lot of areas, natural gas is currently around $0.40/therm, which means that it costs roughly $9/month to run.

If your rates are several times as high as the natural average, your monthly costs will obviously be higher, but this doesn't apply to the vast majority of the population.
brianH
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by brianH »

UALflyer wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 4:32 pm This sounds like a tankless water heater marketing brochure.
Not to mention that modern (built in the last 5 years) tank water heaters have much more and better insulation. The standby losses (heat from it maintaining water temp) is a very minimal component of its energy use, usually between 5-10%. The built in insulation is so good, that most manufacturers prohibit using those old blankets/wraps for the tank.
renue74
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by renue74 »

I have a full time airbnb that I just installed a tankless water heater in last summer. We bought it due to space issues of locating a tank heater. Also bought it to reduce power consumption since the house is not always occupied.

Cost: $1200 for heater and $1200 for the gas company to install.

It's OK. It takes about 25-30 seconds for water to heat up. That's my only issue with it and this is a fairly small house.

---------------

This weekend, I just bought a tank water heater from Lowes. 50 gallon, low boy, electric water heater....for a rental house. Cost: $399
Will cost me another $300 to $400 for the plumber to connect it.

If I were going to do it for my personal residence...I would just buy a 50 gallon tank water heater....gas and be done with it.
Saving$
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by Saving$ »

I did not read all the replies...
1. Gas tankless are generally direct vent, so if you currently have a direct vent, the venting may work. If your direct vent is unpowered, it should be fine. If you have a fan attached to your direct vent, be sure the length of the vent works with the tankless.

2. As plumbing fixtures become more efficient, they use less water. You can get a 0.5 gpm bathroom sink, and a 0.7 showerhead. Tankless need a minimum water flow to cause them to cut on; lowest on the market (I'm aware of) is 0.5 gpm, but remember that is for the hot portion. A 0.7 gpm showerhead is using about 0.35 cold and 0.35 hot, so not a sufficient flow to cause the tankless to go on. Same problem at bathroom sink. You can solve this by having a recirc system that flows the entire volume of a 1/2" pipe through the tankless, and that is probably the way to go, but expensive.

3. Any way you cut it, tankless have higher first cost.

4. If the power or gas goes out, you have nothing. The last gas tankless that would work without power is off the market. This makes no sense, but afaik, this is the situation in the US. With a tank, with electric you have the tank hot water which will stay warmish for about 24 hours. With a direct vent non-powered gas tank heater, the power can go out and you still have and can make more hot water.

5. Instant inline may make sense if you have a very remote single use. The instant inline heaters are generally fairly low efficiency but at least they trigger on lower flows (but to some degree still have that problem).
michaeljc70
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by michaeljc70 »

When I explored the option of a tankless water heater last year it was not really feasible given the winters here. That isn't to say it isn't possible, but the cost for such a unit was many times that of a tank heater.
Luckywon
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by Luckywon »

A440 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 11:14 am If you lose power, I don't believe a tankless will work, even if it is gas. This was the main reason we opted for a tank model, as we lose power several times a year.
My Rinnai gas tankless heaters definitely need power to operate. If power is out and I want hot water, I believe I could plug the heater into a UPS battery backup and get hot water, as it probably does not draw much current. Fortunately has not come down to that yet though.
teamDE
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by teamDE »

Luckywon wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 12:55 pm
A440 wrote: Tue May 28, 2019 11:14 am If you lose power, I don't believe a tankless will work, even if it is gas. This was the main reason we opted for a tank model, as we lose power several times a year.
My Rinnai gas tankless heaters definitely need power to operate. If power is out and I want hot water, I believe I could plug the heater into a UPS battery backup and get hot water, as it probably does not draw much current. Fortunately has not come down to that yet though.
That's right its just the controller that needs electricity. You can plug it into a computer UPS or something and it'd probably run quite awhile.
teamDE
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Re: tankless water heater?

Post by teamDE »

We had a Rinnai gas tankless water heater installed in our basement (in Boston) about a year ago. It's been great, we're fans. Be sure to check for state energy rebates. We got $700 off of ours through MassSave.
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