Running Linux vs Other OS?

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roamingzebra
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by roamingzebra »

Nyc10036 wrote: Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:09 pm I use Linux Mint almost exclusively.
I have found that for problematic websites, using Google Chrome web browser helps.
I use open-source Chromium for that purpose. It's a little less bad than straight Chrome. If I had to use a Chromium browser a lot, I'd probably switch to Ungoogled-Chromium.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by nisiprius »

I like the idea of open source.

Having used Mac OS and Windows heavily, and versions of Linux (and OpenOffice and LibreOffice and the GIMP etc.) for several decades, and Android for about a decade, I have strong feelings about this, though.

Don't kid yourself. In the real world, unless you are living within a heavily UNIX-centered culture (academia), if you just want to get things done with a minimum of fuss, you are better off with commercial unfree software than with free-as-in-freedom software.

LibreOffice, the GIMP, Chromium, Brave, etc. etc. are all amazing achievements, and when I was playing around with a CanaKit Raspberry Pi (to synchronize with a grandson) I was impressed by just how comfortably I could "live" in a 100%-free-software environment, with its curated collection of preinstalled software to do "all the usual things."

But, no, the user interfaces are never as smooth and polished. (Open source developers seem apt to have the attitude that they are developing GUIs for someone else, and don't seriously try to use them for all their work themselves).

And if you actually need to interchange documents with someone who uses Microsoft Word, you will need to deal with the issue that Word really tries hard to save documents in .DOCX format while LibreOffice really tries hard to save documents in .ODF format. Yeah, all the blurbs say, no problem, they can each open the other format. Yeah, there's some simple sixteen-step process for configuring the default "save" format. But a student of mine took second prize in an essay contest when she really deserved to take first prize, because she submitted a last-minute revision to the judges, accidentally sent .ODF instead of .DOCX, and the judge couldn't open it. In theory, it should have been trivial for her to send .DOCX. And in theory, the judge should have been able to "just open" the .ODF in Word.

And you will discover how big the difference is between "compatibility" and "99% compatibility." It's amazing how often Word documents include one little equation or one little WordArt item; and how often, when porting between Word and LibreOffice Writer, a 20-page document will become a 21-page document with three lines on page 21. (The slightest difference in font metrics...)

And there is an issue with maintenance and bug fixing. In theory, it's open source, you can fix it yourself. That's not a reality for me, though. On one occasion we were stuck with a bug... what was it? A plugin for OpenOffice that facilitated interchange between documents and MediaWiki, I think. And it quit working and wasn't fixed for two years because of the ugly transition when Oracle acquired Sun.

None of this is the "fault" of the open source developers, but the fact remains that you will experience some irritation and inconvenience if you are using open-source software within a commercial-software culture.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:28 am, edited 6 times in total.
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dukeblue219
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by dukeblue219 »

nisiprius wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:17 am I like the idea of open source.
(...)
This was really well said and precisely my experience interacting between academia, business/government, and home usage.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Rikaku »

nisiprius wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:17 am I like the idea of open source.

Having used Mac OS and Windows heavily, and versions of Linux (and OpenOffice and LibreOffice and the GIMP etc.) for several decades, and Android for about a decade, I have strong feelings about this, though.

Don't kid yourself. In the real world, unless you are living within a heavily UNIX-centered culture (academia), if you just want to get things done with a minimum of fuss, you are better off with commercial unfree software than with free-as-in-freedom software.

LibreOffice, the GIMP, Chromium, Brave, etc. etc. are all amazing achievements, and when I was playing around with a CanaKit Raspberry Pi (to synchronize with a grandson) I was impressed by just how comfortably I could "live" in a 100%-free-software environment, with its curated collection of preinstalled software to do "all the usual things."

But, no, the user interfaces are never as smooth and polished. (Open source developers seem apt to have the attitude that they are developing GUIs for someone else, and don't seriously try to use them for all their work themselves).

And if you actually need to interchange documents with someone who uses Microsoft Word, you will need to deal with the issue that Word really tries hard to save documents in .DOCX format while LibreOffice really tries hard to save documents in .ODF format. Yeah, all the blurbs say, no problem, they can each open the other format. Yeah, there's some simple sixteen-step process for configuring the default "save" format. But a student of mine took second prize in an essay contest when she really deserved to take first prize, because she submitted a last-minute revision to the judges, accidentally sent .ODF instead of .DOCX, and the judge couldn't open it. In theory, it should have been trivial for her to send .DOCX. And in theory, the judge should have been able to "just open" the .ODF in Word.

And you will discover how big the difference is between "compatibility" and "99% compatibility." It's amazing how often Word documents include one little equation or one little WordArt item; and how often, when porting between Word and LibreOffice Writer, a 20-page document will become a 21-page document with three lines on page 21. (The slightest difference in font metrics...)

And there is an issue with maintenance and bug fixing. In theory, it's open source, you can fix it yourself. That's not a reality for me, though. On one occasion we were stuck with a bug... what was it? A plugin for OpenOffice that facilitated interchange between documents and MediaWiki, I think. And it quit working and wasn't fixed for two years because of the ugly transition when Oracle acquired Sun.

None of this is the "fault" of the open source developers, but the fact remains that you will experience some irritation and inconvenience if you are using open-source software within a commercial-software culture.

This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by lostdog »

I run Chromium in Lubuntu Linux. Lightning fast.

I find running Chromium with the Ublock Origin extension is faster than Brave.
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Nyc10036
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Nyc10036 »

Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
To be honest, someone from MacOS isn't the best person for transitioning to Linux.
For good or bad, my impression is that MacOS makes it so easy that the user doesn't have to use their brains too much. :happy

That said I have a Brother HL-2170w printer.
Installing the driver for it isn't hard, but configuring it so that it works on my network was difficult.
I managed to get it working.
I ended up giving a static IP and setting my router's IP range to one that does not include the printer.
I think I may have had to use a Windows PC to configure it.

.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by LadyGeek »

I also have a Brother printer, model HL-2240D, that I had shared on my network.* It was locally connected to my Linux PC (Ubuntu) via samba. It was indeed difficult to coerce Win 10 to connect to samba, but I eventually got it working. I was also sharing files via samba.

My Linux PC was configured as a server and had a static IP address assigned. So, it always had a static IP address for the printer.

* I currently have the printer connected locally to my Win 10 PC because the 2nd (Linux) PC broke and will be replaced at some point. My Win 10 PC is dual-boot so I can go into Linux at any time.
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Nyc10036
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Nyc10036 »

I am not sure whether I am doing it correctly or not. :confused
My network consists of (1) Linux Mint/Windows 7 PC , (2) Windows 7 PC , (3) Windows 10 PC, (4) Brother HL-2170w printer.
I don't have anything set as the server.
Everything is connected to the router.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Rikaku »

Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:43 am
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
To be honest, someone from MacOS isn't the best person for transitioning to Linux.
For good or bad, my impression is that MacOS makes it so easy that the user doesn't have to use their brains too much. :happy

Most of us have better things to do with our time than to find workarounds for even the most simple function because Linux is not user friendly. But if you enjoy that kind of thing, have at it.
Last edited by Rikaku on Sat Sep 25, 2021 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by tibbitts »

Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am
nisiprius wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:17 am I like the idea of open source.

Having used Mac OS and Windows heavily, and versions of Linux (and OpenOffice and LibreOffice and the GIMP etc.) for several decades, and Android for about a decade, I have strong feelings about this, though.

Don't kid yourself. In the real world, unless you are living within a heavily UNIX-centered culture (academia), if you just want to get things done with a minimum of fuss, you are better off with commercial unfree software than with free-as-in-freedom software.

LibreOffice, the GIMP, Chromium, Brave, etc. etc. are all amazing achievements, and when I was playing around with a CanaKit Raspberry Pi (to synchronize with a grandson) I was impressed by just how comfortably I could "live" in a 100%-free-software environment, with its curated collection of preinstalled software to do "all the usual things."

But, no, the user interfaces are never as smooth and polished. (Open source developers seem apt to have the attitude that they are developing GUIs for someone else, and don't seriously try to use them for all their work themselves).

And if you actually need to interchange documents with someone who uses Microsoft Word, you will need to deal with the issue that Word really tries hard to save documents in .DOCX format while LibreOffice really tries hard to save documents in .ODF format. Yeah, all the blurbs say, no problem, they can each open the other format. Yeah, there's some simple sixteen-step process for configuring the default "save" format. But a student of mine took second prize in an essay contest when she really deserved to take first prize, because she submitted a last-minute revision to the judges, accidentally sent .ODF instead of .DOCX, and the judge couldn't open it. In theory, it should have been trivial for her to send .DOCX. And in theory, the judge should have been able to "just open" the .ODF in Word.

And you will discover how big the difference is between "compatibility" and "99% compatibility." It's amazing how often Word documents include one little equation or one little WordArt item; and how often, when porting between Word and LibreOffice Writer, a 20-page document will become a 21-page document with three lines on page 21. (The slightest difference in font metrics...)

And there is an issue with maintenance and bug fixing. In theory, it's open source, you can fix it yourself. That's not a reality for me, though. On one occasion we were stuck with a bug... what was it? A plugin for OpenOffice that facilitated interchange between documents and MediaWiki, I think. And it quit working and wasn't fixed for two years because of the ugly transition when Oracle acquired Sun.

None of this is the "fault" of the open source developers, but the fact remains that you will experience some irritation and inconvenience if you are using open-source software within a commercial-software culture.

This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
This is my exact experience as well. Of course open source is valuable in some environments, but for personal use it has to be considered a hobby.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by roamingzebra »

nisiprius wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:17 am None of this is the "fault" of the open source developers, but the fact remains that you will experience some irritation and inconvenience if you are using open-source software within a commercial-software culture.
One of the nice things about retiring is that you likely will never need Microsoft Office. I mainly use a text editor for text and Gnumeric for spreadsheets. I'll occasionally fire up Libre Writer to add formating like bold or use Calc for a spreadsheet, but it's rare. In the odd case of incompatibility with a professional like a lawyer, one can often just scan a document and send it as a pdf.

I personally have never cared for commercial or otherwise bloated software even when I used Windows. So it's probably been an easier transition for me. My main complaint these days is that some open-source developers seem to be trying to rival commercial software in their incorporation of bloat. I'm talking about the transition of the graphical toolkit from GTK-2 to GTK-3 and 4. GTK-2 apps were lean and mean and looked like old-style Windows (which I love). The later GTK toolkits are looking more modern and are getting more bloated and I dislike them personally. The mindset of these GTK developers is also disappointing: "Our way or the highway".
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Nyc10036 »

Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:41 am
Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:43 am
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
To be honest, someone from MacOS isn't the best person for transitioning to Linux.
For good or bad, my impression is that MacOS makes it so easy that the user doesn't have to use their brains too much. :happy

Most of us have better things to do with our time than to find workarounds for even the most simple function because Linux is not user friendly. But if you enjoy that kind of thing, have at it.
Yes.
The same can be said regarding many things.
I spent 1 hour of my time and learned something as well which can be used in the future. THAT is of value to me.

.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Northern Flicker »

Linux can be hardened during configuration after installation to be more secure than Windows, but there is no reason to assume that a default installation of Linux is more secure than Windows is today. Many have not been over the years. If you lack Linux/Unix system administration experience, the Linux environment you install may be less secure than a default installation of Windows.
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by tibbitts »

Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:46 pm
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:41 am
Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:43 am
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
To be honest, someone from MacOS isn't the best person for transitioning to Linux.
For good or bad, my impression is that MacOS makes it so easy that the user doesn't have to use their brains too much. :happy

Most of us have better things to do with our time than to find workarounds for even the most simple function because Linux is not user friendly. But if you enjoy that kind of thing, have at it.
Yes.
The same can be said regarding many things.
I spent 1 hour of my time and learned something as well which can be used in the future. THAT is of value to me.

.
Yes, as long as you realize that knowledge might not be of any use in the future. Over the years almost none of the Linux device-related workarounds I've learned were still applicable after a few years, or sometimes even months. I used to be able to justify learning workarounds because my career was entirely UNIX and Linux-based, but now that it would be a purely hobby investment of time/effort, there are usually other higher-priority-to-me activities.
Last edited by tibbitts on Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am
This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
I found it the opposite. I consider myself not tech savvy, yet working with the Lubuntu fork of the Ubuntu distribution on an old 2012 laptop has been quite smooth. Chromium for browsing, Shotwell for photos, LibreOffice for office utilities. Even the printer problem I didn't have.

I agree about the last point. I think Linux doesn't quite do everything for most people, so you will at least need another computer with Mac or Windows.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by rockstar »

I run a lot of different OS at home. We have both Android and iOS devices. My wifi is running DD-WRT, which is pretty much linux. My gateway is running openBSD. My synology is running linux. We have windows 11 and mac os computers. I will run linux and openbsd in vmware player on my windows 11 machine.

My thought process is to use the best OS for the job that you're doing.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Nyc10036 »

tibbitts wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:04 pm
Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:46 pm
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:41 am
Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:43 am
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
To be honest, someone from MacOS isn't the best person for transitioning to Linux.
For good or bad, my impression is that MacOS makes it so easy that the user doesn't have to use their brains too much. :happy

Most of us have better things to do with our time than to find workarounds for even the most simple function because Linux is not user friendly. But if you enjoy that kind of thing, have at it.
Yes.
The same can be said regarding many things.
I spent 1 hour of my time and learned something as well which can be used in the future. THAT is of value to me.

.
Yes, as long as you realize that knowledge might not be of any use in the future. Over the years almost none of the Linux device-related workarounds I've learned were still applicable after a few years, or sometimes even months. I used to be able to justify learning workarounds because my career was entirely UNIX and Linux-based, but now that it would be a purely hobby investment of time/effort, there are usually other higher-priority-to-me activities.
Learning about IP addresses and such has been very useful.
It won't go out of style as long as there are computer networks.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by tibbitts »

Nyc10036 wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:04 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:04 pm
Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:46 pm
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:41 am
Nyc10036 wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 9:43 am

To be honest, someone from MacOS isn't the best person for transitioning to Linux.
For good or bad, my impression is that MacOS makes it so easy that the user doesn't have to use their brains too much. :happy

Most of us have better things to do with our time than to find workarounds for even the most simple function because Linux is not user friendly. But if you enjoy that kind of thing, have at it.
Yes.
The same can be said regarding many things.
I spent 1 hour of my time and learned something as well which can be used in the future. THAT is of value to me.

.
Yes, as long as you realize that knowledge might not be of any use in the future. Over the years almost none of the Linux device-related workarounds I've learned were still applicable after a few years, or sometimes even months. I used to be able to justify learning workarounds because my career was entirely UNIX and Linux-based, but now that it would be a purely hobby investment of time/effort, there are usually other higher-priority-to-me activities.
Learning about IP addresses and such has been very useful.
It won't go out of style as long as there are computer networks.
Your "learned something" was a little vague, but taking the totality of the posts here I'd still say a very high percentage (90%?) of the knowledge I've gained over the years regarding Linux workarounds won't be useful in the future.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

I would say that using Linux has been useful inasmuch as some of the critical thinking can be commuted to other situations, even if specific workarounds are not.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Blue456 »

randomizer wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:51 am I wonder what the most Bogleheads OS is... Linux has a low expense ratio, but it is not simple. Windows smacks of active management, and I guess macOS does too. In the end I use macOS because I like the apps.
I would say Linux requires active management, Windows is like a bloated portfolio and MacOS is a target date fund, set it and forget it.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by dukeblue219 »

Linux is IBKR - customizable and powerful, but dangerous

Windows is a workplace 401k - not the cheapest or the most flexible but it came with the job by default and works for most people.

MacOS is a target date fund that doesn't tell you what the asset allocation is, but takes a cut of profits from all its holdings and delivers the best returns.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by LadyGeek »

Acronym decoder: IBKR is Interactive Brokers
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by roamingzebra »

From what I gather, a lot of people have problems with Linux if their computer has NVIDIA graphics. Avoiding those (or following the troubleshooing advice online re: NVIDIA) will apparently solve a lot of problems. Since I use old and/or low-spec computers, I don't have that problem.

I'm guessing that the foolproof way of avoiding problems is to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed. But that takes away the adventure of bringing old Windows computers back to life. That may be a bit "hobbiest", but it's fun and it instills a problem-solving mindset to other aspects of life.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by tibbitts »

roamingzebra wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:40 pm
I'm guessing that the foolproof way of avoiding problems is to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed. But that takes away the adventure of bringing old Windows computers back to life. That may be a bit "hobbiest", but it's fun and it instills a problem-solving mindset to other aspects of life.
Many years ago one of my job responsibilities involved testing various computers for Linux compatibility. Most of the computers were just Linux installations we did from the usual Linux distributors, but one system was provided with Linux pre-installed by the manufacturer. One of the first things I happened to try was video-out to connect an external monitor. I couldn't get that to work, so since the manufacturer officially supported Linux on this laptop, I contacted their tech support. The answer was that "video-out isn't supported with Linux on that model." So much for "avoiding problems."
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:22 pm
roamingzebra wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:40 pm
I'm guessing that the foolproof way of avoiding problems is to buy a computer with Linux pre-installed. But that takes away the adventure of bringing old Windows computers back to life. That may be a bit "hobbiest", but it's fun and it instills a problem-solving mindset to other aspects of life.
Many years ago one of my job responsibilities involved testing various computers for Linux compatibility. Most of the computers were just Linux installations we did from the usual Linux distributors, but one system was provided with Linux pre-installed by the manufacturer. One of the first things I happened to try was video-out to connect an external monitor. I couldn't get that to work, so since the manufacturer officially supported Linux on this laptop, I contacted their tech support. The answer was that "video-out isn't supported with Linux on that model." So much for "avoiding problems."
I had a similar problem with Linux Mint and a strange aspect-ratio monitor from eMachines (RIP). Just didn't seem to work. At the time, Linux Mint was my one and only operating system on that eMachines compter. That's what led me back to Mac with the all-in-one. I do have Linux (Lubuntu) now on an old computer, but the family rig is still an iMac.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by oldlongbeard »

Strange.....for a few years, my printers just work under Linux (Brother and HP), with no drivers, OOTB. Windoze, not so much. My experience. YMMV. I also like Pop!OS, and MXLinux. Mint running a very close 3rd. I also use Win10.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

oldlongbeard wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:46 pm Strange.....for a few years, my printers just work under Linux (Brother and HP), with no drivers, OOTB. Windoze, not so much. My experience. YMMV. I also like Pop!OS, and MXLinux. Mint running a very close 3rd. I also use Win10.
I've never heard of MXLinux. Do you have System 76? Because isn't that the only way to have Pop!OS?
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by roamingzebra »

familythriftmd wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:10 am
I've never heard of MXLinux.
Visit https://www.distrowatch.com. You'll be in for a shock. :D

To explain, the ranking on the right side of the page is not a measure of true popularity. At this point, most of the clicks on the MXLinux link are probabbly by people curious about why it's at the top of the list. What got it there in the first place, no one knows. But it seems like it's been number 1 for years and Distrowatch has gotten a lot of flak for it. The three biggies remain Ubuntu, Mint and Debian.
Do you have System 76? Because isn't that the only way to have Pop!OS?
I'm not the one you're addressing, but I was curious too. So many people have been recommending Pop!OS lately and yet few people seem to be buying System 76 computers. Per Wikipedia, "Pop!_OS is primarily built to be bundled with the computers built by System76, but can also be downloaded and installed on most computers." Distrowatch has more, including all the relevant links.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by TN_Boy »

rockstar wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:04 pm I run a lot of different OS at home. We have both Android and iOS devices. My wifi is running DD-WRT, which is pretty much linux. My gateway is running openBSD. My synology is running linux. We have windows 11 and mac os computers. I will run linux and openbsd in vmware player on my windows 11 machine.

My thought process is to use the best OS for the job that you're doing.
Agreed.

For my home computers, I generally take a business-like approach to OS choice. That is, you don't pick the OS. You pick the applications you need (and are likely to need) and the hardware you want supported (printers, servers etc).

Then you select the OS.

For most of what I do, windows or Mac OS will work. I like the Apple ecosystem (including phones, ipads, etc), so our primary computers are Macs. Because I like Quicken, I have a virtual machine running windows (the Mac version of Quicken has historically not been as functional as the windows versions). And Adobe Lightroom for photography .. not available on Linux.

My background is system software (operating systems development, stuff like that) so I can deal with Linux issues ....I just don't want to. I like using Linux for software development. It's a cool environment. But not ideal for most of the stuff I do at home.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Northern Flicker »

TN_boy wrote: For my home computers, I generally take a business-like approach to OS choice. That is, you don't pick the OS. You pick the applications you need (and are likely to need) and the hardware you want supported (printers, servers etc).

Then you select the OS.
Yes. If you want to spend your time as an end-user doing the activities for which you purchased the computer, a supported system will maximize that, unless learning about Linux, Linux software development, etc. is the activity for which you purchased the computer.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Dude2 »

Everything depends on the application of Linux and if it makes sense for that particular purpose. The lure of "free" has fooled many a manager or systems engineer, not so much the people that actually understand the tools in their tool box. As an OS, it can be a powerful educational tool for folks at home that want to learn about things in as low a cost manner as possible. The world is just too big to render a universal judgement, but at my work if I'm on a program that involves using Linux as a "customer facing" OS (not talking about its use as a low level embedded OS or for use "behind the scenes" with driving VMs, etc) -- then that's a program with likely plenty of problems and best side-stepped if possible.
Then ’tis like the breath of an unfee’d lawyer.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by TN_Boy »

Northern Flicker wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:22 pm
TN_boy wrote: For my home computers, I generally take a business-like approach to OS choice. That is, you don't pick the OS. You pick the applications you need (and are likely to need) and the hardware you want supported (printers, servers etc).

Then you select the OS.
Yes. If you want to spend your time as an end-user doing the activities for which you purchased the computer, a supported system will maximize that, unless learning about Linux, Linux software development, etc. is the activity for which you purchased the computer.
Yes Linux is great fun if you want to play with operating system stuff.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Marseille07 »

Linux is great, but one would have to spend time choosing the right distribution. It's not like Windows where you choose from 7, 10 or 11 and call it a day. There are dozens to choose from.

What I personally recommend is to pick Ubuntu or Mint, and choose your favorite desktop manager. I don't like GNOME3, so while I like Ubuntu, I am on Ubuntu MATE.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

Marseille07 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 am Linux is great, but one would have to spend time choosing the right distribution. It's not like Windows where you choose from 7, 10 or 11 and call it a day. There are dozens to choose from.

What I personally recommend is to pick Ubuntu or Mint, and choose your favorite desktop manager. I don't like GNOME3, so while I like Ubuntu, I am on Ubuntu MATE.
If you really can't decide, I would say Mint is the way to go. Close to Windows if you're used to that. Also seems to hardly have changed over the years on the front-end, so good if you're going back to Linux, too.
I use Lubuntu and it has the advantage of being built on Stable Ubuntu without the Gnome-3, which I think is bulky and kind of ugly.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Kagord »

familythriftmd wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:45 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 am Linux is great, but one would have to spend time choosing the right distribution. It's not like Windows where you choose from 7, 10 or 11 and call it a day. There are dozens to choose from.

What I personally recommend is to pick Ubuntu or Mint, and choose your favorite desktop manager. I don't like GNOME3, so while I like Ubuntu, I am on Ubuntu MATE.
If you really can't decide, I would say Mint is the way to go. Close to Windows if you're used to that. Also seems to hardly have changed over the years on the front-end, so good if you're going back to Linux, too.
I use Lubuntu and it has the advantage of being built on Stable Ubuntu without the Gnome-3, which I think is bulky and kind of ugly.
Gnome 4 is out, it's truly a race to the bottom we are in. But really, who (except noobs) uses X11 extensions when you can do everything in a terminal.
Last edited by Kagord on Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

I'm a noob, for sure! I use GUI in most circumstances, but it does feel pretty awesome to use the Terminal. It's like magic.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Northern Flicker »

Kagord wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 4:11 pm
familythriftmd wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:45 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:33 am Linux is great, but one would have to spend time choosing the right distribution. It's not like Windows where you choose from 7, 10 or 11 and call it a day. There are dozens to choose from.

What I personally recommend is to pick Ubuntu or Mint, and choose your favorite desktop manager. I don't like GNOME3, so while I like Ubuntu, I am on Ubuntu MATE.
If you really can't decide, I would say Mint is the way to go. Close to Windows if you're used to that. Also seems to hardly have changed over the years on the front-end, so good if you're going back to Linux, too.
I use Lubuntu and it has the advantage of being built on Stable Ubuntu without the Gnome-3, which I think is bulky and kind of ugly.
Gnome 4 is out, it's truly a race to the bottom we are in. But really, who (except noobs) uses X11 extensions when you can do everything in a terminal.
Right. If you want a machine that has the look and feel of Windows, just use Windows.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by roamingzebra »

familythriftmd wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:45 pm
If you really can't decide, I would say Mint is the way to go. Close to Windows if you're used to that. Also seems to hardly have changed over the years on the front-end, so good if you're going back to Linux, too.
I use Lubuntu and it has the advantage of being built on Stable Ubuntu without the Gnome-3, which I think is bulky and kind of ugly.
I look at the different philosophies behind the different distros.

Ubuntu is corporate. It's the Microsoft of Linux distros. They're always trying to fix what isn't broke and add new bloated items that nobody wants. Ubuntu is, however, available in lighter versions (e.g,, Lubuntu, Xubuntu), which considerably lowers the bloat level.

Mint is on the side of the user. It's based on Ubuntu, but if it doesn't like the new bloat that Ubuntu is offering or the weird new desktop environment that Ubuntu is offering, it will forge it's own path. The path it forges is generally guided by the principle of making things familiar and comfortable for the user.

Debian is about choice and customization. It offers pretty much every desktop environment out there, still offers 32-bit versions, and leaves it to the user to customize to their taste. Debian is more work to get to one's liking, which is why it's rarely recommended for newcomers.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by familythriftmd »

roamingzebra wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:15 pm
familythriftmd wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:45 pm
If you really can't decide, I would say Mint is the way to go. Close to Windows if you're used to that. Also seems to hardly have changed over the years on the front-end, so good if you're going back to Linux, too.
I use Lubuntu and it has the advantage of being built on Stable Ubuntu without the Gnome-3, which I think is bulky and kind of ugly.
I look at the different philosophies behind the different distros.

Ubuntu is corporate. It's the Microsoft of Linux distros. They're always trying to fix what isn't broke and add new bloated items that nobody wants. Ubuntu is, however, available in lighter versions (e.g,, Lubuntu, Xubuntu), which considerably lowers the bloat level.

Mint is on the side of the user. It's based on Ubuntu, but if it doesn't like the new bloat that Ubuntu is offering or the weird new desktop environment that Ubuntu is offering, it will forge it's own path. The path it forges is generally guided by the principle of making things familiar and comfortable for the user.

Debian is about choice and customization. It offers pretty much every desktop environment out there, still offers 32-bit versions, and leaves it to the user to customize to their taste. Debian is more work to get to one's liking, which is why it's rarely recommended for newcomers.
Yes, exactly.
Lubuntu has the stability of Ubuntu without the bloat. It also got much better after LXQt became its desktop environment over LXDE, I think. At least smoother on the GUI side even as the underlying code is probably not much changed recently.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by 2pedals »

familythriftmd wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:52 am
roamingzebra wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:15 pm
familythriftmd wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:45 pm
If you really can't decide, I would say Mint is the way to go. Close to Windows if you're used to that. Also seems to hardly have changed over the years on the front-end, so good if you're going back to Linux, too.
I use Lubuntu and it has the advantage of being built on Stable Ubuntu without the Gnome-3, which I think is bulky and kind of ugly.
I look at the different philosophies behind the different distros.

Ubuntu is corporate. It's the Microsoft of Linux distros. They're always trying to fix what isn't broke and add new bloated items that nobody wants. Ubuntu is, however, available in lighter versions (e.g,, Lubuntu, Xubuntu), which considerably lowers the bloat level.

Mint is on the side of the user. It's based on Ubuntu, but if it doesn't like the new bloat that Ubuntu is offering or the weird new desktop environment that Ubuntu is offering, it will forge it's own path. The path it forges is generally guided by the principle of making things familiar and comfortable for the user.

Debian is about choice and customization. It offers pretty much every desktop environment out there, still offers 32-bit versions, and leaves it to the user to customize to their taste. Debian is more work to get to one's liking, which is why it's rarely recommended for newcomers.
Yes, exactly.
Lubuntu has the stability of Ubuntu without the bloat. It also got much better after LXQt became its desktop environment over LXDE, I think. At least smoother on the GUI side even as the underlying code is probably not much changed recently.
I use Xubuntu, I have been very happy with it. I like the Xfce environment for its simplicity.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Mr-et-Mrs-R »

Security via obscurity isn't secure, just difficult to understand.
I agree 100% with Northern Flicker, understanding Linux configurations is required, and can be a time sink.
Besides, we all know that FreeBSD is more secure than Linux! :P

Start with a VM, get comfortable with what you can do and what you can't, how to install / remove software, and the usual day-to-day tasks, and when you find yourself spending more time in the VM than Windows, flip them around; put Windows in the VM and make Unix your main system.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by lostdog »

familythriftmd wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 12:57 pm
Rikaku wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:42 am
This is my experience as well. For reference I am fairly tech savvy. I tried using a laptop with only Ubuntu Linux for about a year and it was a miserable experience. For all the very vocal opinions from the Linux crowd about how something like Ubuntu "just works" and is newbie friendly, etc., it was a pain in the *** coming from MacOS. Want to plug up a printer? Oh, you need to go download some drivers, but you can't just download them, there is a 10 step process on dealing with repositories and other nonsense you need to go through. Sure, everything CAN be changed and adapted to personal preference on Linux, but unless you like tinkering and spending hours crawling through forums for answers and piecing together solutions that involve long lines of code, don't waste your time. 99.9% of folks are better off on Mac or Windows with consumer focused software.
I found it the opposite. I consider myself not tech savvy, yet working with the Lubuntu fork of the Ubuntu distribution on an old 2012 laptop has been quite smooth. Chromium for browsing, Shotwell for photos, LibreOffice for office utilities. Even the printer problem I didn't have.

I agree about the last point. I think Linux doesn't quite do everything for most people, so you will at least need another computer with Mac or Windows.
Lubuntu has been rock solid for me over the years. I'm considering donating money to the project.
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Second Round
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Second Round »

Newbie here.

Several years ago I took a flyer on a very inexpensive Dell Vostro laptop that came pre-installed with Ubuntu. That was my first successful venture with Linux (I had tried many years earlier, in the days of dial-up modems, without success).

Over time, Ubuntu got bloated and it didn't so much run as crawl or collapse. By then I was playing around with Raspberry Pi computers, and they had just released a version of their Debian-based OS for x86 processors. That brought the laptop new life.

Shortly thereafter Win 7 went end of support. I didn't want any of the new tile OS or telemetry, or the constant plugging of security holes, so I took my then 9-yr old desktop and installed Mint as dual boot. I kept the Windows partition (offline), because of a scanner that didn't come with a decent Linux UI. It was Windows and Mac only. I could get it to work in Linux, just not quite as well.

Well, later on, Epson (to their credit) released a Linux driver and front-end for it that worked pretty well. Not as full featured but much better. That was the last thing that I really used Windows for.

No regrets. I have much more control over my system and am not dealing with a barrage of ads and "suggestions". Granted, the Raspberry Pi helped much with the learning curve, but Linux has come a LONG way. Mint is more Win7 like than Ubuntu, so it's more intuitive to me. And I use the xfce distribution for best responsiveness / speed (my desktop is now 11 yrs old - works fine!).

FWIW my main uses are: browsing (firefox, chromium) email (claws), music (rhythmbox), podcasts & sync (gpodder and a script I wrote), calendar (gnome), as well as online commerce. [Edit: also I'm a heavy user of LibreOffice, especially calc (spreadsheets) and writer (documents). Occasionally, Impress (slideshows). Photos and photo editing (Pix, Image Viewer) too. Bottom line, there's no longer anything that I did with Windows that I can't replicate functionally on Linux Mint.]

My "power user" skills have grown much and I just can't be happier with my decision. The biggest distinction I see from other OS is that Linux makes it a general purpose computer ... you control it what it does, not the other way around.
Last edited by Second Round on Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Secondscount »

I've been running a version of Linux on a desktop since 2009 but these days I do a lot on an Android based tablet or phone.

25 years ago I would do some gaming and freelance CAD work so I spent a stupid amount of money on PC hardware. Nowadays I do neither so old laptops work fine for what I need. I'm currently running Mint on an 8 year old Dell. It does okay but it's probably time for an upgrade.

Reading through this thread has made me aware of some options that I didn't know were available such as PopOS that I might try.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by ncbill »

If I wanted to run Windows or Linux I'd do so in a virtual machine under Parallels on an M1 (or M1x) Mac.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by sunny_socal »

I've used linux - a lot. For a while I tried using it for my home computer but ongoing maintenance is a pain. Likely the best scenario is a host for a web browser, sort of like a Chrome book. Today I'd never use it for any serious work, there's way too much baby sitting.

Windows: Runs everything under the sun. Power hungry, it was never designed for laptops. Has become more Mac-like in stability over years.
Mac: Runs enough software for everyday use. Very power efficient. Stable.
Chrome: Even more power efficient, practical use is limited to a web browser
Linux: Will likely never be a good desktop OS. Excels at running server farms, engineering software etc.

Decide how much time you have and how you'd like to spend it.
oldlongbeard
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by oldlongbeard »

Secondscount wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:25 am I've been running a version of Linux on a desktop since 2009 but these days I do a lot on an Android based tablet or phone.

25 years ago I would do some gaming and freelance CAD work so I spent a stupid amount of money on PC hardware. Nowadays I do neither so old laptops work fine for what I need. I'm currently running Mint on an 8 year old Dell. It does okay but it's probably time for an upgrade.

Reading through this thread has made me aware of some options that I didn't know were available such as PopOS that I might try.
Run MX or even better, Antix on that old girl.... Antix will run like a scalded dog on that old hardware. And, commenting on a previous post regarding MX.... yes, it is pretty popular. Makes a great usable machine out of your old hardware. Very stable.
Regards,
Greg (Sent from my Linux Mint machine)
Marseille07
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Marseille07 »

I'm surprised by the popularity of Lubuntu. What's so good about it compared to Xubuntu or Ubuntu MATE? Personally I like MATE a lot, the GNOME2 desktop manager works for me.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by lostdog »

Marseille07 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:48 pm I'm surprised by the popularity of Lubuntu. What's so good about it compared to Xubuntu or Ubuntu MATE? Personally I like MATE a lot, the GNOME2 desktop manager works for me.
Lubuntu for me is the minimalistic approach. It barely uses any resources.

I can also game on it using Steam and Lutris. I played World of Warcraft on it for awhile using Lutris and it ran smoothly. Over 100 fps.

I also play World of Tanks Blitz and the latest Doom release. Steam is supporting a lot more games on linux. Steam's own hand held gaming system will be running Linux. Linux has come a long way.
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Re: Running Linux vs Other OS?

Post by Marseille07 »

lostdog wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:57 pm Lubuntu for me is the minimalistic approach. It barely uses any resources.

I can also game on it using Steam and Lutris. I played World of Warcraft on it for awhile using Lutris and it ran smoothly. Over 100 fps.

I also play World of Tanks Blitz and the latest Doom release. Steam is supporting a lot more games on linux. Steam's own hand held gaming system will be running Linux. Linux has come a long way.
I see. I haven't really tried LXQt as I recall not liking Qt-based desktop managers (like KDE) much. It's possible Qt has gotten better though :beer
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